Ashvatama

One more thing. This is like in the late seventities when Iskconites all were saying the earth was flat. YES THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. I remem challenging them with the example of airplane travel and satelitte orbits and mapping of the planet. their stock answer was "The demigods must be playing tricks on all the demons by making them think the earth is round." LOL I swear that is the truth. Anybody who was around then can confirm this embarassing chapter. Dark Warrior is still living his own version.

 

BTW Dark Warrior do you believe the earth is flat also.

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

Man HAS been to the moon, there is way too much evidence to deny that but it is not the heavenly moon described in the Bhagavatam. In 1976 for about two months, Amoga dasa spread the rumour that Prabhupada had said the world was flat, being naïve and young (22 years old) I believed him however, when I was in Bombay Temple in 1978 this was discussed with an Indian devotee who took sannyasa off Prabhupada just before he left the Planet.

He explained to me the secular world we perceive with our biological senses is not flat, it is very round and Amoga had misunderstood Prabhupada however, he further explained that if we take the subtle world into account, which houses the majority of material creation, our planet looks vastly different and is connected to a mass of other subtle worlds which makes it, from an over all viewpoint, a continuous plan.

This is hard to understand because of our conditioning in the secular world of matter and biological bodies. In other words our material scientists and all of us, virtually know nothing about what is really going on and we will not understand until we become purified and see the truth for ourselves.

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Kulapavana

Srila Prabupada said many times that the Moon is further away than Sun in the linear sense, using that as his argument that lunar mission was a hoax. That is a fact.

Even with a naked eye one can see (by observing the shadow pattern on the Moon when Sun and Moon are visible together) that this is not the case, let alone using any other calculation method known even to the ancient astronomers.

ISKCON still does not dare to contradict Prabhupada on that issue, even as they attempt to build a Vedic planetarium. Srimad Bhagavatam does not say that Sun is closer to Earth than Moon in the linear sense.

That was SP interpretation. Even the writings of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta (which give correct distances to Sun and Moon) were not considered authoritative enough to reject Sp's statements in that regard.

As to the flat world or Earth that is another misunderstanding and over-simplification.

Many good devotees left the movement when these issues became public, mainly because of the dogmatic way in which they were presented. There was no room for argument to the contrary. To this very day many devotees do not dare to question such things and repeat the same misconstrued version.

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

The inferior energy (mahat-tattva or the three material worlds) is managed and maintained by Maha-Vishnu and His expansions, servants and demigods. The inferior energy (mahat-tattva) can only be moved when the marginal living entities enters a mahat-tattva bodily costume (ethereal and biological) that allows the living entity to move around the rest of the mahat-tattva in that materially constructed costumed outfit (also the mahat-tattva). Such temporary costumes are always in the mode of decay where the ignorant marginal living entity is restricted on different levels karma that is fuelled by selfish desires.

How much of the mahat-tattva (material creation) are we aware of? We are now able to see, due to the help of modern technology, so much more than just the vessels we occupy and its restricted ability to see, hear, smell, feel and touch things around us.

Today we have technological instruments like the Hubble telescope and the electron microscope that unlocks deep secrets of nature. We are also now aware of small bodily vessels like viruses and can even further see deep into the structure of those vessels, seeing atoms, electrons and even smaller compounds of matter due to the Electron telescope. It is quite amazing, but how much are we not seeing?

How much of the mahat-tattva can never be seen by the most powerful technological instruments? For example, the Yamaduttas (An occupied vessel of the mahat-tattva that serves the Lord of death) are all around us doing their work (not much work for the Vishnuduttas in this world at present). Yet no one sees them, and even if they do see 'something unexplainable, science explains it to be the endorphins in the brain and such 'subtle' Beings really do not exist.

The mahat-tattva (material manifestation) is real but temporary phenomena that comprises of what is called the inferior (lifeless) energies of Lord Krishna that can only move due to 'containing' the presents of life in a suitable vessel or bodily form.

The inferior energy is managed and maintained by Maha-Vishnu and His expansions, servants and demigods. The inferior energy (mahat-tattva) can only be moved when the marginal living entities enters a mahat-tattva bodily costume (ethereal and biological) that allows the living entity to move around the rest of the mahat-tattva in that materially constructed costumed outfit (also the mahat-tattva). Such temporary costumes are always in the mode of decay where the ignorant marginal living entity is restricted on different levels karma that is fuelled by selfish desires.

That's how it is for all of us trapped in the mahat-tattva, a place where rebellious souls can attempt to dream up whatever selfish existence they desire and deserve.

Ao it is clear that the mahat-tattva-ethereal and biological costumes (bodies) always belong to the Leasing Agents, Maha-Vishnu and His wife Maya Devi and always remain a part and parcel of the mahat-tattva. Such costumes follow Maha-Vishnu's script and design according to His dreams that simultaneously meets the desires, thoughts, imaginings, dreams and requirements of each of the baddha jivas visiting from outside the mahat-tattva.

No living entities Vishnu-tattva or jiva-tattva come from the mahat-tattva or inferior lifeless energies of the Lord

On entering the mahat-tattva, the living entity (baddha-jiva) is confined to a bodily vessel provided by Maha-Vishnu with His restricted material universe and only in this way is the out garments of inferior matter (bodily vessels) moved within the mahat-tattva.

For the all-living entities, the mahat-tattva is an unnatural phenomenon to be covered with and trapped in. It is important to understand that the bodily vessel one is in belongs to and is part of the mahat-tattva

For us souls who are ensnare in the mahat-tattva’s containments of ethereal or biological bodies find it hard to understand the fact that such bodies are Maha-Vishnu's creation and not ours. Due to such attachment to these vessels we foolishly think is us, we cannot understand that an imperishable universe exists beyond its confines of our bodily vessels that ARE the energy on the mahat-tattva covering our real eternal identity. We presently cannot understand that our real genuine home is where only the eternal imperishable present exists beyond the concept of past and future.

For the eternal inhabitants in the Vaikuntha's, it is therefore possible to see past, present and future within the mahat-tattva all at once, where as, from the perspective within the mahat-tattva, unless one is a great devotee of Krishna like Arjuna, it is impossible to see past, present and future simultaneously. So it is important to understand that the ethereal and biological vehicles are movable ornaments of the mahat-tattva, such vessels are not only in the mahat-tattva, they ARE the mahat-tattva moving due to the presents of the baddha-jiva (the life force) trapped within those vessels within and a part and parcel of the mahat-tattva dream reality of Maha-Vishnu.

The Impersonalists foolishly believe the mahat-tattva is the complete creation and nothing else exists other than their impersonal inactive escape into Nirvana or a dormant aspect of the Brahmajyoti (the total creation or Spiritual Sky); they can neither view nor experience the existence of the vast devotionally active Vaikuntha Planets outside the mahat-tattva, where the majority of Krishna's creation perpetually encircles, without ever decaying, the insignificant temporary decaying mahat-tattva cloud.

The impersonalist also think the mahat-tattva is an illusion however, the mahat-tattva is real, but unlike the vast majority of the creation in the imperishable Vaikunthas, the mahat-tattva, with its movable vessels, are impermanent features that fade out of existence due to the perishable nature of the mahat-tattva.

The mahat-tattva is therefore governed by the ‘unnatural occurrence’ of time divided into past present and future that’s effect is birth, disease, old age, decay, forgetfulness, death and rebirth. Such an impermanent phenomena cannot exist within the other three quarters of the indestructible Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti where the vast Vaikuntha planets and nitya-siddha devotees perpetually thrive on loving devotional service to Krishna in His Personal intimate abode of Goloka-Vrndavana, or serving one of His unlimited Vishnu expansions (each with a different name) in the Vaikuntha planets.

Many shastric quotes 'give the impression' that the mahat-tattva is an illusion however, it only appears that way from the level of the Vaikuntha's where reality is permanent and never fades away.

The past, the future and impermanence or decay, has no meaning in the personal pastimes of Krishna and His Vishnu expansions because everything is always happening now, in the eternal presents of Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrndavana.

From the transcendental platform 'outside' the mahat-tattva, a great devotee like Arjuna can see everything (past, present and future) happening in the mahat-tattva or material manifestation all at the same time.

This is important to understand if one is to understand the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada -"Since material elements are present within each other, there are innumerable ways to construe and categorize the material creation of God. Ultimately, however, the significant element is God Himself, who is the basis of all the transformations and permutations of the material cosmos.

<O:P</O:P

The creation of the material world takes place by a progression from subtle to gross elements, as explained in the sāńkhya-yoga system of Lord Kapila. The example may be given that we find the dormant existence of an earthen pot within mud and also the existence of mud within the earthen pot" From Chapter 22: Enumeration of the Elements of Material Creation (mahat-tattva) Canto 11 Śrīmad Bhāgavatam

comment -For the all-living entities, the mahat-tattva MATERIAL creation is an unnatural phenomenon where only the baddha jiva aspect of ones marginal identity becomes covered by and trapped in, eventually due to good and bad karma. It is important to understand that the MATERIAL bodily vessel the dreaming baddha jiva sub-conscious portion of the marginal living entity is in or possesses, belongs to and is part of the mahat-tattva dream creation of Maha Vishnu.

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The human biological senses are a gross covering of our ethereal containment and blocks out our ability to understand what you have mentioned. Because of that gross biological coving of ignorance, we are unable to see and experience such fantastic realities. Such legendary tales are beyond the belief of modern material science. This is because they only believe in what they see, just like the frog in the well only believed what he could see.

Once a frog that lived in a well bragged to a turtle that lived in the Sea.

"I am so happy!" cried the frog, "When I go out, I jump about on the railing around the edge of the well.

When I come home, I rest in the holes inside the wall of the well.

If I jump into the water, it comes all the way up to my armpits and I can float on my belly.

If I walk in the mud, it covers up my flippered feet.

I look around at the wriggly worms, crabs, and tadpoles, and none of them can compare with me.

I am lord of this well and I stand tall here. My happiness is great.

My dear sir, why don't you come more often and look around my place?"

Before the turtle from the Sea could get its left foot in the well, its right knee got stuck. It hesitated and retreated. The turtle told the frog about the Sea.

"Even a distance of a thousand miles cannot give you an idea of the sea's width; even a height of a thousand meters cannot give you an idea of its depth. In the time of the great floods, the waters in the sea did not increase. During the terrible droughts, the waters in the sea did not decrease. The sea does not change along with the passage of time and its level does not rise or fall according to the amount of rain that falls. The greatest happiness is to live in the Sea."

After listening to these words, the frog of the shallow well was shocked into the realization of his own insignificance, that foolishly believed his well and its small surroundings was all that existed

Holy Cow, how totally cool is that!

This is only the beginning of Lord Caitanya's movement, remember even the demigods are lined up to take birth, they are just waiting for a suitable pure Krsna conscious family to take birth in.

If you are Krsna conscious then you can attract a great soul to come and take shelter in your family. The more Krsna Conscious the devotees are, the more spiritually advanced souls will come and take birth in Lord Caitanya's movement. :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray:

True Story? Oh that is hilarious. I never knew he came here and often wondered why not. priceless story.

 

Can you imagine Sai baba meets Chris Angel? He would lose all his followers in a heart beat.

Yes true story. But it was Africa, not the States, APOLOGIES TO THEIST. He has never been here in America

I like this one, tried it myself - it's all about controlling the mind

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/criss-angel-levitate/3369305388

Talking with Larry King -

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/criss-angel-levitate/3369305388

Real mystics are also illusionists. Everything in the material world is but an illusion.

Many years ago sai baba came to the States and while here, met a magician. Sai baba produced some flowers and gave to him as a greeting, the magician also produced flowers and and gave Sai baba flowers as well as a welcoming gift for coming to the States.

Then sai baba did his famous 'mystical abilty' and produced a watch and presented it to the magician, in response the magician also produced a watch and gave it to sai baba as a gift and said,

"Amazing isn't it, but lets face it, you are nothing other than a magician like me, a trickster, we a certainly not Gods are we?"

Sai baba was embarrased and vowed never again to return to the United States after such humiliation.

Hare Krsna

This is real

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=L_lu6LV5Je4&feature=related

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=jtR_Xk6g8yw&feature=related

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The material vessel she (my mataji) is in is, it only moves because of the presents of life, the presents of consciousness that moves the vessel we are in - the marginal living entity .

Take away the consciousness pervading the material vessel and you have a dead body, dead matter that is known as the external maha-tattva energy of Lord Krsna. -

Try to understand that the External energy is lifesles but is also used as a covering or vessel for the jiva tattva or marginal living entity to move around in while trapped within the mahat-tattva. All visiting Vishnu tattvas within the mahat-tattva or material creation are not affected by the external energy and are never covered by it. This is the teachings of your Sridar Maharaj as well, study carefully and you will see this is what he and Srila Prabhupada says

The materal world is the external lifeless energy of Krsna.

Question - So how does this work?

Out earth planet, the moon, the sun, the Solar System and the billions of Galaxies just in this one MATERIAL creation of our particular Lord Brahma (meaning who is empowered by Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead) is the agent or demigod empowered by Maha Vishnu, who is the creator of the mahat-tattva or lifeless material Cosmos.

Question - How do we understand the presents of life then in a lifeless creation (the external material energy or mahat-tattva)??

It is understood in this way, the mahat-tattva or material energy imprisons the living entity known as Krsna's marginal potency (tatastha s'akti) and therefore not only are living entities living on the earth, moon, Sun and stars, they are contained in bodily vessels that coincide with their particular existence, in a particular vessel, that is also the material energy and a part of the mahat-tattva.

For example, this lifeless earth planet has biological vessels of external matter that is only moved by the presents of the living entity inside that lifeless material vehicle of mahat-tattva energy, the same for the Sun, moon and stars, although the material vessels on those are more subtle (ethereal bodies) than our secular or gross biological vessels.

Your planet appears round but it isn't. The universe looks very different if you could see the sub-space realities all around us (dark matter) made up of material ethereal bodily vessels (ghosts, bhutas, celestial and hellish) as well.

Primitive material science of the 21<SUP>st</SUP> Century has barely scratched the surface that can only be understood by piety and not mundane knowledge so use you intelligence and start chanting Hare Krishna.

What is wrong with sunshine particle-A saying to sunshine particle-B that they are Sun?

They even tell particle-C and D that they are also Sun, and all other particles...

 

If you "remove" all sunshine particles there is no Sun, is it?

That is not possible because the Sun and the Sunrays are inconceivable simultaneously one but also different -This is called Acinta-beda-beda-tattva propounded by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu

Srila Prabhupada explains this nicely - "In the Bhagavad-Gita it is accepted that the living entities are sparks of, part and parcel, of God, Krsna. But part is never equal to the whole. So you can claim as a spark of God, as every living entity can claim, but you cannot claim as the Supreme Person with full power. That is misleading. You can show a little magic, as other magicians also can show, but you cannot show the full magic, as Krsna displayed or Lord Rämacandra displayed.Therefore, your claim as a full power is completely false and blasphemous.” from letter sent to Sai Baba - BBT letters

Lord Caitanya's Acinta-beda-beda-tattva -inconceivable simultaneously one and different different.

American version of a song using His teachings -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3BIHlrPLzk&feature=related

Singing about Krsna

On stage in Australia -

Since one has no idea what a superhuman guru is, then if one doesn't meet one it's YOUR FAULT.

Long long ago we all chose to come to this material world, we cannot blame Krishna. Yesterday two children 7 and 9 where killed in a car accident in Melbourne Australia, it was not there fault? But how do we understand such horror?

From the Bhagavad gita as it is, we can understand that this life is only one of possibly millions of lives.

Each life we perform pious and impious acts and reap the reward or punishment. So from a higher level of understanding, as horrible as it maybe, those children died because of their own previous actions, their own karma - IT IS OUR FAULT THAT WE SUFFER IN THE MATERIAL WORLD.

It's up to you to want to serve Krsna and recognize his devotees. It simple starts by a book like Back to Godhead or is stairing you right in your face right know with Audarya Fellowship Also go to Dandavats.com

You would not be on this forum if you were not sincerely seaching<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: navbar_link -->

That is called blame the victim. - convenient and clever

It all depends on you. Krsna is so kind he will give you anything you want, if you want to Go back home, back to Godhead, back to Krsna, he will send you His dear disciple to guide you back however, it's up to you to want to serve Krsna and recognize his devotees. It simple starts by a book like Back to Godhead or is stairing you right in your face right know with Audarya Fellowship Also go to Dandavats.com

You would not be on this forum if you were not sincerely seaching<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: navbar_link -->

guru can take you by the hand to KRSNA:pray:

A bonafide Guru is no ordinary Human being, if you are sincere, he will find you. Most of us never went to India to find Prabhupada, he came to us in our Western Cities in the 1960s and found us.

YOU HAVE TO BE 100% GENUIN to attract or find a bonafide Guru who is a representive of Krsna and NOT an ordinary human being - it all depends on you

Peoples lives are built on a monstrous fraud. Gradually we are being mentally enslaved by atheistic leaders. Humanity has passed into a twilight zone of chosing between genuine spirituality and evil tamasic existence.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmysVoRBgyA

 

Our only hope - that the spreading of Krishna's Holy Name cannot be stopped.

Something wonderful will soon begin on a scale that no one has even imagined and it is all coming from the city of Mayapur

Srila Prabhupada - “‘So you have claimed to take a form of the formless God. But we see in the Bhagavad-Gita that God is never formless.’”

 

Srila Prabhupada - “‘Only the rascals and less intelligent class of men think that God is formless"

 

Srila Prabhupada - In other words, God, personal God, is not from impersonal Brahman; but impersonal Brahman is from the personal God. .’”

 

Srila Prabhupada - “‘So Krsna, as a person, says to Arjuna that both of them existed in the past as person, and they’ll continue to remain person in the future. So without knowing all this knowledge, a mayavada accepts the incarnation of God as coming from impersonal.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Under this heading you (Sai Baba) have proved yourself to become a mayavada. And how a mayavada or an ass can become the incarnation of God?’” Prabhupada was disgusted and further said. “This is another rascal Dom. God is always distinct from man.”

 

Srila Prabhupada - "In the Bhagavad-Gita it is accepted that the living entities are sparks of, part and parcel, of God, Krsna. But part is never equal to the whole".

 

Srila Prabhupada - "So you can (Sai Baba) claim as a spark of God, as every living entity can claim, but you cannot claim as the Supreme Person with full power. That is misleading. You can show a little magic, as other magicians also can show, but you cannot show the full magic, as Krsna displayed or Lord Rämacandra displayed.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Therefore, your (Sai Baba) claim as a full power is completely false and blasphemous.”

 

Srila Prabhupada - "“Lord Caitanya never claimed that ‘I am avatara.’ But we understand from the sästric evidence. He never claimed. Rather, when He was addressed as Krsna He blocked His ears, ‘You don’t say like that.’ He never claimed. He fully displayed Himself as a devotee, not Bhagavän".

Only a rascal fool claims to be God

Remember ISKCON was born out of the 20th century human rights abuses, world wars, western degradation, LSD and struggles of the mid 20th century.

 

So clearly those who first came to Prabhupada's movement in the late half of the 20th century and early 21st century, including the children, all carried their particular Karma that all the first generation had to struggle so hard with to achieve purification.

Everyone should stop being so self rightious and understand the back ground of the 60s we have ALL come from =

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmysVoRBgyA

Prabhupada saved so many from what the songs above describe of what the world was like when Prabhupada arrived in New York in 1965

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Sri Caitanya-caritamrita Madhya 22.10

"Pure love for KRSNa is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens

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The Lord tells Uddhava that his question is unnecessary because the soul is never really bound by the material nature. It is simply an illusion to think that the materal body, which is created by the influence of the three modes of material nature, is the self. Only due to such illusion does the living entity suffer, just as one experiences distress in a dream.

Of course, materal nature is not an illusion—it actually exists, just as the living entities also exist, both being potencies of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

It is the dream that he is a part of the material nature that constitutes the illusion of the living entity. Thus, the soul is never actually bound because his existence is always superior to that of matter.

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Srila Prabhupada has further explained that the marginal living entity does not go from nitya siddha to nitya baddha, THATS NOT POSSIBLE because all marginal living entities are always nitya-siddha, they only DREAM they are nitya baddha.

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Prabhupada - 'Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada - "Nitya siddha also means bodily form or our transcendental body"

 

The description of sparks in the effulgence or a particle of living LIGHT OR so called atoms in a ray as individual dormant light particles, as one advanced humble Vaishnava puts it, is ONLY correctly describing the nitya-baddha consciousness in the surrounding Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that separates Vaikuntha from the maha-tattva. This is because the living entity only 'sub-consciously' leaves Goloka in a 'dream-like' consciousness that IS the baddha-jiva aspect of the marginal living entities identity.

This baddha-jiva dream state consciousness enters the mahat-tattva and is given form by Maha-Vishnu. After many millions and millions of births throughout the three worlds of material existence, the baddha-jiva becomes fed up with the temporary nature of the material creation and takes refuge in the 'inactive dreamless' impersonal Brahmajyoti. And stays there until the next maha-tattva creation manifests.

In this way Sridar Maharaj and Narayana Maharaj, along with many others, ARE ONLY referring to the SECONDARY baddha-jiva state that is the 'dark side' of our marginal identity.

The ‘light side' of our marginal living identity is eternally nitya-siddha and that is our perpetual 'svarupa' bodily identity that can never fall down from Goloka. It is something to be regained Prabhupada has told us.

The vast majority of creation is Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrndavana where all living entities are aware of their nitya-siddha perpetual status.

On the other hand, those who choose not to remember their eternal Krishna Conscious nitya siddha, which means being fully aware that they are Krishna’s eternal servants, ONLY 'consciously' leave Goloka, not as their nitya-siddha body, but as their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that enters the DREAMING mahat-tattva creation relying on the bodies or vessels provided by Maha-Vishnu.

Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti and personally told us that we came down from Goloka some millions of years ago, not as our perpetual nitya-siddha body, but as a dreaming consciousness (nitya-baddha) that is facilitated with bodily costumes provided by Maha-Vishnu.

Or can eventually EVEN EVENTUALLY, after passing through the mahat-tattva, merge as an individual spark of consciousness within His body, but only after we FIRST have ’sub-consciously’ come down from Goloka as our secondary nitya-baddha dreaming sub-conscious thoughts.

This surely sounds exactly as Srila Prabhupada explains it.

In the Vedic literature there are many references indicating that in this particular age the most effective religious practice is the chanting of the holy name of Lord.

"In the age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings the names of Krishna. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Krishna Himself. He is accompanied by His associates, servants, weapons and confidential companions."

"Those who are actually advanced in knowledge are able to appreciate the essential value of this age of Kali. Such enlightened persons worship Kali-yuga because in this fallen age all perfection of life can easily be achieved by the performance of sankirtana [the congregational chanting of the holy name of the Lord]."

Some general verses describing the glories of the chanting of the names of the Lord include one from the Padma Purana:

"The holy name of Krishna is transcendentally blissful. It bestows all spiritual benedictions, for it is Krishna Himself, the reservoir of all pleasure. Krishna's name is complete, and it is the form of all transcendental mellows. It is not a material name under any condition, and it is no less powerful than Krishna Himself. Since Krishna's name is not contaminated by the material qualities, there is no question of its being involved with maya [illusion]. Krishna's name is always liberated and spiritual; it is never conditioned by the laws of material nature. This is because the name of Krishna and Krishna Himself are identical."

And then there is a nice verse by Srila Rupa Gosvami quoted in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Antya-lila 1.99:

"I do not know how much nectar the two syllables 'Krish-na' have produced. When the holy name of Krishna is chanted, it appears to dance within the mouth. We then desire many, many mouths. When that name enters the holes of the ears, we desire many millions of ears. And when the holy name dances in the courtyard of the heart, it conquers the activities of the mind, and therefore all the senses become inert."

And from Srimad Bhagavatam 1.1.14:

"Living beings who are entangled in the complicated meshes of birth and death can be freed immediately by even unconsciously chanting the holy name of Krishna, which is feared by fear personified."

In the following verse, translation, and purport from Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Antya-lila 4.71, the glories of the holy name are elaborately described. The verse was spoken by Caitanya Mahaprabhu to Sanatana Gosvami:

"Of the nine processes of devotional service, the most important is to always chant the holy name of the Lord. If one does so, avoiding the ten kinds of offenses, one very easily obtains the most valuable love of Godhead."

Srila Prabhupada’s PURPORT

Srila Jiva Gosvami Prabhu gives the following directions in his Bhakti-sandarbha (270):

"Chanting the holy name is the chief means of attaining love of Godhead. This chanting or devotional service does not depend on any paraphernalia, nor on one's having taken birth in a good family. By humility and meekness one attracts the attention of Krishna. That is the verdict of all the Vedas. Therefore if one becomes very humble and meek, he can easily attain the lotus feet of Krishna in this age of Kali. That is the fulfillment of all great sacrifices, penances and austerities because when one achieves ecstatic love of Godhead, he attains the complete perfection of life. Therefore whatever one does in executing devotional service must be accompanied with the chanting of the holy name of the Lord."

The chanting of the holy name of Krishna "Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare" has been praised by Srila Rupa Gosvami in his Namastaka (verse 1):

"O Hari-nama! The tips of the toes of Your lotus feet are constantly being worshiped by the glowing radiance emanating from the string of gems known as the Upanisads, the crown jewels of all the Vedas. You are eternally adored by liberated souls such as Narada and Sukadeva. O Hari-nama! I take complete shelter of You."

Similarly, Srila Sanatana Gosvami has praised the chanting of the holy name as follows in his Brhad-bhagavatamrta (Chapter One, verse 9):

"All glories, all glories to the all-blissful holy name of Sri Krishna, which causes the devotee to give up all conventional religious duties, meditation and worship. When somehow or other uttered even once by a living entity, the holy name awards him liberation. The holy name of Krishna is the highest nectar. It is my very life and my only treasure."

In Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.1.11) Sukadeva Gosvami says:

"O King, constant chanting of the holy name of the Lord after the ways of the great authorities is the doubtless and fearless way of success for all, including those who are free from all material desires, those who are desirous of all material enjoyment, and those who are self-satisfied by dint of transcendental knowledge."

Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya wrote one hundred beautiful verses glorifying Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu entitled Susloka-satakam. Text 23 glorifies His gift of the holy name.

"I enthusiastically praise the Lord with a golden form, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who is holding a knotted string in His hand for counting his japa recitation of the Hare Krishna mantra. He has made a gift of the song of that mantra, thereby destroying all obstacles such as sorrow, delusion, greed, and all kinds of suffering. He bestows bhakti on the many devotees who are greedy for the service of His lotus feet."

Selections from the Brhad-bhagavatamrta of Sanatana Goswami

Part 2, Chapter 3, Texts 158-68

Of the many ways to glorify Lord Krishna, chanting His holy name is the first. Because it has the power to give the great wealth of pure love for Him, it is considered the best.

Who can describe the peerless glory of Lord Krishna's holy name, which delights the heart and is waves of nectar always lovingly tasted by the tongue?

Although all the Lord's names are equally glorious, by chanting the names that are dear to the devotees one quickly and easily attains his desire.

The devotees attracted to various names of the Lord gradually become attracted to all His names. They all become dear to him.

Appearing in one sense, the nectar of the holy name floods all the senses with sweetness.

The holy name's appearance on the voice-sense delights both oneself and others. For this reason glorifying the Lord's holy name is better than meditating on Him.

It is said that chanting the holy name is a great treasure of love for Lord Krishna. It is the best and most powerful spiritual practice. It is like the best mantra.

They who know how to taste spiritual nectar know that spiritual love is the fruit of devotional service. In spiritual love one chants the holy name without stop.

They who know how to taste nectar describe the spiritual qualities of intense love for Lord Krishna. When the chanter is in distress, the Lord's holy name is chanted with great love.

Know that, as the cataka birds lament when there is no raincloud, and as the cakravaki birds lament when separated from their husbands, so the devotees, distressed by separation from the Lord, make a lament of chanting the holy names.

Only by the wonderful mercy of the Lord, who is a nectar ocean of wonderful pastimes, is the wonderful sweetness of chanting the holy name manifest. It is not manifest by one's own efforts.

Sri Namastaka of Rupa Goswami

Eight Prayers Glorfying the Holy Name

TEXT 1

O Hari-nama! The tips of the toes of Your lotus feet are constantly being worshiped by the glowing radiance emanating from the string of gems known as the Upanisads, the crown jewels of all the Vedas. You are eternally adored by liberated souls, such as Narada and Sukadeva. O Hari-nama! I take complete shelter of You.

TEXT 2

O Hari-nama, O name sung by the sages, O transcendental syllables that bring bliss to the people, even if You are spoken only once, and even if You are spoken disrespectfully, You at once remove the many harsh sufferings of everyone.

TEXT 3

O sun of the Holy Name, even the dim light of Your early dawn 'namabhasa' devours the power of the darkness of the material world and gives those who are blind to the truth the insight to follow the path of pure devotion to Krishna. What learned person in this world can possibly fully describe Your transcendental glories?

O Holy Name, the Vedas declare that although meditation on impersonal Brahman cannot bring freedom from past karma, Your appearance [on the tongue of your chanter] at once makes all karma disappear.

O Holy Name, I pray that my love for You in Your many forms—such as Aghadamana (Crusher of Aghasura), Yasodanandana (Son of Yasoda), Nandasunu (Son of Nanda), Kamalanayana (Lotus-eyed), Gopicandra (Moon of the gopis), Vrndavanendra (King of Vrndavana), Pranatakaruna (Merciful to the surrendered souls), and Krishna—may greatly increase.

O Holy Name, You are manifested in two forms: 1. the Supreme Person described by the Holy Name, and 2. the sound vibration of the Holy Name. We know that the second form is even more merciful than the first, because although a person may commit many offenses to Your first form, he will still plunge into an ocean of bliss by serving Your second with His voice.

O perfect and complete Holy Name of Lord Krishna, You are the embodiment of delightful and intense spiritual bliss, You destroy the many sufferings of those who take shelter of You, and You are a festival of happiness for Gokula. I bow before You again and again.

O Krishna-nama! O inspiration of Narada's vina! You are full of sweetness, which is like an ocean full of waves of nectar. If You wish, please appear constantly on my tongue, along with transcendental affection for the Lord.

Beautifully written, what a breath of fresh spiritual air. Write a poetry book for Krishna to help melt the stonehearted lonely people of Kali-yuga like me.

Always in kali-yuga,

In kali-yuga, neither yoga, nor tapasya, nor any other process is required. Among the limbs of bhakti, this maha-mantra, nama sankirtana of -

is the most prominent and only way in this degraded age to go back home, back to Godhead and regain our original position as eternal servant of Krsna. Everything is in the name.

"As far as the old testiment, when reading it I don't see much sign of transcendental knowledge. This is just my opinion and everyone has the right to believe what they like. But to me it reads like some tribal people with a lot of hatred against other races and tribes. Such books can be found in any culture. In Kali yuga people hate each other, discriminate against each other and fight amongst each other, usually while invoking the name of "God" to justify their actions. The losers in history did the same thing (such as other pagan religions in europe). If they had won the wars their religion would have similar stories of God ordering them to kill the non believers and of God punishing their enemies..

All primitive cultures are coming up from the evolutionary process on this material gross planet, where the soul eventually again receives human form. Because it is inherent in human nature (because ALL living entities are in there baddha-jivas condition of forgettful consciousness while in the material creation of Maha-Vishnu), these human tribes, coming up through the lower biological species or life, develop their own speculative beliefs in a God when they attain the earthly human primitive body.

On the other hand there is Knowledge (Veda) that comes down to this planet from the demigods from the celestial levels of material existence (the sub-space heavenly planets). Even still a part of the material universes, the Veda has been passed down like this to our planet.

The beginning of Kali-yuga is where the human tribes, born from coming up from the lower species and the celestial beings who came down from the heavenly planets who followed the Vedas, crossed paths.

This was only possible due to the Dvapara-yuga being degraded into the beginning of Kali-yuga that allowed the lowly 'planet tribes' to invade and be eventually be influenced by of the 'more celestial beings that followed the Vedas. This is why Sanskrit Is the language of the demigods.

Also Satya-yuga. Tretta-yuga and the most of the Dvapara, even though on this planet, were more celestial than earthly and existed in the sky of this planet on not on the surface. There were mystical powers, huge cities floating in the air at the same time the biological evolutionary process was going on the floor of the planet that the 'celestials Vedic universal travellers' left alone.

This is why no evidence is found of the Satya, Tretta or Dvapara-yuga’s (except towards the end of Dvapara when it has virtually been degraded down to the planets surface).

Then Krishna came right at the very end of Dvapara-yuga, then after the battle at Kurukshetra the Kali-yuga began and the invasion of the annoying primitive animal like barbaric human tribes had evolved enough to plunder the remanets of what was left from the Vedic culture and in the process adapting to many practises, from cooking to prayer that gradually influenced many 'wordly' primitive cultures.

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Narayana Maharaja - "It is told like this in the scriptures, but actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. This is only said to convince ordinary jivas, conditioned souls. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way".

Translation - Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

"Actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. Many things in the shastra is said to convince the jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real home is Goloka. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, due to the 'eternal presents', these things will be seen in another way".

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE.

"Again the origin of the soul came up and Madhudvisa had to explain that we do not originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti but have come down from Vaikuntha. It was explained that our 'present awareness' is only within the past, present and future of the material world. And yes, we are actually in the material world or mahat-tattva due to having only that awareness.

So clearly, we are IN the material world, it is actually not a dream state to us, even if, as Prabhupada explains, our eternal 'svarupa' is perpetually situated in Vaikuntha within the 'eternal present' that is only existent there.

This is because, while in the material world, the 'awareness of our eternal relationship with Krishna is not seen or remember in our present state of consciousness, therefore it 'appears' that it does not exist, just like it 'appears' the sun does not exist, due to the cloud cover, or by the presents of night.

Our position in the material world way shoddier than that analogy because we at least we can understand that the sun exists behind the cloud cover or when it is nightime, but the conditioned soul does not understand, know, see, or is aware of their eternal relationship with Krishna.

Therefore our attendance in the material world is very real. And to each of us, IT IS NOT a dream state, we do NOT experience the material world as a dream state while we are here, it is real, as real as being in Vaikuntha, however we experience everything as temporary.

Actually we ALL still in Vaikuntha but are 'consciously' caught up within the past, present and future of the material creation (mahat-tattva) that has covered our awareness to the 'eternal present' of Vaikuntha and Goloka, like a cloud covers the view of the Sun"

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered.Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

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Gradually I am beginning to understand

For anyone who joins the Temple, it is best they concentrate on chanting and hearing Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad Gita as it is etc first and keep away from all internet sites.

When I first joined the Temple it was only after a year did I learn many letters were sent to me from family and friends. I was never given those letters and today some will not agree with what the Temple President in 1972 did however, I am grateful my early learning was not disturbed from outside mail, it was difficult enough to handle doubts in my own mind.

I am a firm believer that anyone who wants to be a 'live in monk' with ISKCON, must 'turn off' from the outside world and be 're-programmed' from all the previous nonsense conditioning that has riveted them to thinking they are the material body.

 

Many will not like the use of the word 're-programmed' because of the media and cultist deprogrammers. I put it to you this way, when a student studies for an exam, they shut themselves off from the outside world of friends, family, TV and Internet only to concentrate on learning the subjects they are studying.

Sankirtan (chanting and book distribution) was the best way of being trained up, so many questions out on the streets that we learned to answer with a Krishna Conscious solution. So if one is introduced to Krishna on a site like Audarya Fellowship and wants to be more than a congregational member and be a live in monk, then I suggest they just concentrate 100% on studying Srila Prabhupada’s books, stay off the web due to its diverse temptations and following the Temple program, associating closely with fixed up devotees. This will lay the foundations for any later challenge or threat to their Krishna Consciousness.

It is like the origin of the jiva issue, “the fact that we all originated from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago”( http://www.prabhupadavani.org/Gita/web/text/GT039.html 73/08/06 London, Bhagavad-gita 2.6) ,was so ingrained deep within my consciousness due to the strict beginnings we had as Brahmacari’s and the personal association I had with Srila Prabhupada at the 83 Hereford St. Sydney Temple.

It was in the Temple room that Srila Prabhupada and myself began discussing the paintings of Lord Caitanya and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswat Thakur that I innocently put on the step of his Vysasana to keep them off the floor while I was cleaning. Srila Prabhupada laughed and laughed saying that is not where those Personalities go, the emotion in his eyes and his humility I will never forget. It was during his gentle chastisement of me he said - “You came here away from such wonderful association of Lord Caitanya and Krsna, and now you have come back, when you go back home back to Godhead you will understand all this” For Hari Sauri’s benefit who knows me well, including all the struggles I have had, NO their was only Prabhupada and myself in the room, everyone else, including Hari Sauri, was out on Sankirtan. This was an intimate personal relationship between my Spiritual Master and myself that others may doubt, but they will NEVER take such a wonderful PASTIME away from me, I will remember this to my last days on this planet.

It is that kind of association that rivets ones understanding that can never be swayed by any other argument, as the last six months has shown

For a beginner - Just stay in Krishna’s Temple reality It is better than any Vaishnava website FOR learning about Krishna.

So the conclusion is for a new devotee who wants to be a serious Hare Krishna devotee living in the Temple – avoid the Internet due to its diversity and temptations, read all of Prabhupada’s books first and become convinced

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Isn't it better for a new ISKCON bhakta to follow the program with faith, gain sufficient maturity and spiritual strength to objectively evaluate

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Kulapavana

Were you "thorough" when serving under Bhavanada or crooks and liars like him? Lets hear some stories of you standing up to corruption and abuse in Iskcon.

You say: "And do not be afraid to question everything a senior devotee does." Did YOU question anything Prabhupada did? Somehow I doubt that very much. You took it all as gospel, and you still do.

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ISKCON leaders are beginning to recognise that numerous of their "prospective new members" have access to the internet web, so their newcomer members reading sites which might cause bewilderment of the young innocent Vaishnavas - agree

Making such categorical statements is the sign of a bigot.

 

I have never claimed to be a Gaudiya Vaishnava. I try (often without success) to *follow* a Vaishnava.

Night Chant I remember a Christian minister got on the Harmonium and sang this sweet Hare Krishna chant to the congregation in 1972 at Byron Bay, they all loved it!