Ashvatama

Not sure what you mean. There appears to be several documentaries there. Better to give me a synopsis please.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=8 width=496 align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top></TD><TD vAlign=top>"The God of Broken Hearts"

Watch Chris Masters' report, first broadcast 23 June, 2008.

Length: 45'05"

[Windows Broadband] [Windows Dialup]

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This is very good and exposes the naivity in us all

Oh man. Who cares what Iskcon gurus accept or not.

Theist what do you think of this doco and how can devotees protect themselves from the same type of emotional and Psychological abuse

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2008/20080623_bcf/interviews.htm

Shiva is a great Vaishnavite. Even the Vishnu Sahasranama says that Shiva chants the "Rama" Nama always!

 

sri rama rama rameti rame raame manorame

sahasranama tattulyam ramanama varaanane

 

the Divine Name of "Rama" being equivalent to a thousand Names of Lord Vishnu.

Those who are attracted to Lord Siva would do well to follow his own example by exclusively worshiping and glorifying Lord Krishna. Hare Krishna.

HARE KRSNA!

 

</IMG> <TABLE borderColor=#c0c0c0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=570 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=center align=middle width="80%" bgColor=#ffffcc>Hare Krishna Festival of the Chariots, Ratha Yatra Festival, Philadelphia, 1975</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Hare Krishna Festival of the Chariots, Ratha Yatra Festival,...

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"Prabhupada in Australia"

Srila Prabhupada Arriving in Melbourne Australia 1974

Your all chewing the chewed, EVERYTHING is explained HERE (BELOW) found on another thread on the indiadivine audarya web site

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

This is how His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada explains this to us.

Srila Prabhupada is saying that our original and perpetual state of being a nitya siddha bodily servant of Krishna, MEANS never falling down.

However, he is also saying that the memory of being nitya-siddha can be covered over by the choice to imagine OR DREAM your own existence without Krishna.

Just like one may go into a daydream in their present material body and dream oneself to be a King, while in the meantime their 'dreaming' material body has not moved.

In this way Srila Prabhupada is saying that ALL nitya siddha’s can be covered over ONLY, and the memory of being nitya-siddha forgotten, like one forgets their material body while dreaming.

What he means by saying nitya siddha's never fall down, is they are always nitya-siddha, just like the sun is always the sun even though it might be covered by the clouds.

Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established, so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering)

The secret of understanding this is also found in realizing what the ‘ETERNAL PRESENT’ is in the face of divided material time of PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE. Thus, it is important to understand that ones ‘AWARENESS’ can be in EITHER Krsnaloka or the maha-tattva AT ONE TIME ONLY and NEVER both at the same time however, the paradox is, even when ones ‘awareness’ is in the mahat-tattva as the baddha-jiva, ones perpetual nitya-siddha body is secured and protected eternally within the eternal presents of Krsnaloka

In fact most devotees in Goloka never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha be covered by the selfish nitya baddha sub-conscious dream state.

Therefore, most marginal living entities do NOT allow themselves to be covered by non Krishna Conscious desires that manifest their baddha-jiva consciousness because their desire is to always put Krishna first by being absorbed in serving Him as nitya siddha.

Such inconceivable statements are mind-boggling because how is it possible to calculate % of a % in an endless Spiritual creation?

So it is important to understand that ALL nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however, imagine and dream they do, BUT NEVER AS THEIR NITYA SIDDHA BODY. Most never enter the world of imagination and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya as nitya baddha.

Therefore, it is due to the cloud covering we cannot see our real eternal nitya-siddha identity because our awareness is now restricted by that cloud covering or nitya-baddha consciousness.

This cloud covering is all we are aware off because it has blocked out the sun. We are not able to see the sun shinning due to the cloud covering the sun. The sun is still there, just as our nitya-siddha body is there in Goloka however; it is not realized because of the cloud cover therefore, we are nitya-baddha.

We can’t be nitya-siddha at this time because we cannot see or be aware of that covered identity.

Therefore, our only present awareness of ourselves is solely nitya-baddha and remains so until we remove the dark cloud covering of material desires by replacing them with devotional Krishna Conscious desires.

Then gradually the cloud cover or nitya-baddha dreaming condition is dissipated revealing the sun or our eternal nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious bodily identity eternally serving Krishna.

EVERY marginal living entity (jiva-tattva) has the propensity to fall down from Goloka due to free will and choice, but most CHOOSE to stay with Krishna as servant, and because of that choice, they are NOT slave or 'BORG' in a collective 'oneness of consciousness' as shown in the film 'STAR TREK'

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So many good devotees with so much training are just ignored and treated terribly by so many ‘claiming to be devotees in ISKCON’ and especially by some of the arrogent GBC.

I believe devotees like Ravindrasvarupa prabhu (GBC member) are trying to advance the maturity of ISKCON with his wonderful lectures and writings, but still so many with so numerous talents, who were trained for years in ISKCON, are just treated badly and ignored

What a waste

Daily Class - Yadu-Srestha Prabhu Srimad Bhagavatam 10.85.50-55 - <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype>10.5MB

Marīci's sons were condemned for their offense against Lord Brahmā, and in addition Hiraṇyakaśipu once cursed them to be killed by their own father in a future life. This curse was fulfilled by Vasudeva's letting Kaḿsa murder them one by one.

Sit back, have a lassi or hot milk and absorb this nectar

The nobler sort of man emphasizes the good qualities in others, and

does not accentuate the bad. The inferior does the reverse.

 

-- Confucius (551-479 BC) Chinese Philosopher:deal:

Very true but be very careful -

"How fortunate for leaders that men do not think."

- Adolf Hitler

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Personally, my realization is that as leaders we must bear responsibility for the impact our leadership actions have on the people we lead. A workman shouldn’t blame his tools, and a leader shouldn’t blame his followers, demanding that they just “grin and bear it and simply eat their halava”, as someone once put it. your servant, Sita-pati das

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Would that concept extend to all leaders, or just mere 'mortals'?

quote

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.

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Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>It is only honest here to point out that Srila Sridhar Maharaj from the Gaudiya Math, not only supported the 11 Zonal Acaryas in ISKCON late in 1977, but also encouraged them all to be initiating Spiritual Masters in the mood of Srila Prabhupada. I witnessed this at his Gaudiya math Temple in 1978 when he glorified the new Zonal gurus in ISKCON.<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

Also Narayana Maharaj originally supported and encouraged the 11 gurus, regardless of what he says today. So as far as I am concerned, Narayana Maharaj is just as naive and Spiritually immature as us Godbrothers were who also pushed the 11 guru worship that is really just an imitation of Srila Prabhupada, just like a child imitates their hero.

In all fairness though, at least two of them have proven themselves as bonafide Spiritual Masters, Srila Jayapataka Swami and Srila Hridayananda Swami. They both have past the test of time.

Also I remember way back in 1981 Ramai Swami (who was just elected the head of the GBC in 2008), got up and praised his sannyas guru Bhavananda at his Vysa Puj by saying he had specially come from Vaikuntha to save the fallen souls, Ramai had tears in his eyes as he spoke fondly of Bhavananda and was clearly very moved, he had really saw Bhavananda as specially coming down from Vaikuntha to carry on Prabhupada's work of saving the fallen, this mood he instilled to others who eventually became Bhavananda's disciples, this was video taped and I still have it in storage.

Clearly Ramai Swami had seen Bhavananda in the same light as Prabhupada, a pure devotee put in that position by Krsna.

In this way Ramai Swami, Chittahari, Balarama, Yasomatinandana, Pratapana, Hari Sauri, Subabhati, all of us Prabhupada disciples would strongly set the mood, `scene and example of worship to Bhavananda, for his new disciples to follow, especially Ramai Swami, who was also kind of a disciple of Bhavananda as well, due to taking sannyas off him.

Anyway the extravagant worship us Godbrothers created for Bhavananda would last until 1986, when unfortunately the whole `guru' thing came crashing down on our heads, resulting in utter confusion where at least one devotee I know of committed suicide.

Personally I never ever went that far to see Bhavananda specially sent from Vaikuntha because to me he was a Godbrother who represented Prabhupada that I blindly followed because I new he was a dear disciple of Srila Prabhupada, my Spiritual Master. I thought at the time however, how Ramai's `over the top' glorification of his Sannyas guru was eerie but I never said anything.

Bhavananda never ever saw himself as a great devotee, he always new he was playing a role, believing that imitating Prabhupada was his service, he believed that in time he would become purified and gradually become stronger and stronger in his sadhana, so that he could truly act as a Guru. He told me this when he sent me to see an old friend of his and present a garland to him (The famous singer Peter Allen).

Later he told me what Ramai had said is simply not true, "I am no pure devotee" telling me the story of how he suffered as a young boy.

Yet unfortunately, as years progressed, Bhavananda became more and more intoxicated by the lavish, luxurious, magnificent wealthy worship his Godbrothers set up and supported. Strongly encouraging any new devotee to follow. So gradually he became more and more inebriated proud and arrogant than he already was.

I already new in India back in 1978 of Bhavananda's problems with homosexuality, his incident in Mayapur a few years previous was well known in India, but Prabhupada forgave him for his fall down and he worked very hard, doing amazing service in Mayapur, to again get Prabhupada's favour.

Could it happen again? One could ask. Those questions were not ever asked back then by anyone like it is today. I did not know in 1978 if he would again have problems in that area when I was Temple commander of Vrndavan, but as early as 1982 I did know, I just new he was again having problems, I think a few of us did, I know Chittahari prabhu did, Bhavananda confided in him. Anyway who was I to judge others? I was struggling myself and ironically everyone new about that too.

No one back then new what to do with anyone who was having a sexual problem, it was mostly ignored and never talked about. Of course that all changed in the mid 1990's.

Anyway in Vrndavana and Mayapur Bhavananda would get me to convince any new devotee that he should be chosen as guru.

This was happening all over the world with all the appointed gurus

It seemed back in those early immature years, to have a `hero', then worship him as a pure devotee, even if he is not qualified, was more important at the time than having no hero at all.

This is because the search for paragons is a natural phenomenon within human society, if we cannot find one a qualified Guru, then we unfortunately manufacture one, just like we did after Prabhupada left us, we actually carried on the Guru worship as if Prabhupada had never left.

The appointed gurus where not qualified on the level of Prabhupada, yet we would worship them anyway ON THAT LEVEL with the hope they would become qualified, that's how innocent we were but we genuinely believed that in time, due to the purification process of Bhakti-yoga, they would become pure devotees under the test of time.

We all quoted Prabhupada to support this by saying that Prabhupada gave Brahmin initiating to devotees saying,

"Now that I have given you Brahmin initiation, now become Brahmana"

All of us Godbrothers put a new twist on Prabhupada's comment -

"Now that I have given you the authority to become initiating Guru, now become Guru"

I was too uneducated in Spiritual life and very insecure at the time to say anything, so I just went along with the 'chosen guru' thing for the ride, most of us Prabhupada disciples did because we new nothing else, we knew no better, the oldest devotees in the movement back in 1978 were in their thirties, it was kind of an innocent way we did this, our intentions were good, there was no plan to cheat anyone, we all wanted to see ISKCON grow. It's a shame many tried to imitate Prabhupada back then rather than simply follow him. Back then we simply didn't know any better.

You know, the preaching on the streets back then was way way better and more effective than it is today, the devotees back then were very dedicated selling books, not that they are not today however back then EVERY TEMPLE DEVOTEE AND GUEST was into selling books.

The fact is if most of the gurus never fell down, it could have worked, IT WAS WORKING, AT LEAST IN AUSTRALIA. But that was destined to eventually not be, it was destined to fail because of the way they were glorified.

They were worshiped like Prabhupada, better than Prabhupada was. It therefore failed because clearly none of them were anything like Prabhupada.

As another old saying goes, "No lie can live forever?

Another point that should be made to shut up the critics is, even the paraphernalia selling by devotee back them, like oil paintings, were necessary as it assisted preaching. Those who criticize such selling are wrong because so many preaching programs where financed by such selling, like putting one and a half million copies of a Hare Krishna magazine in all Australian Newspapers plus supporting the campaign to free Soviet devotees from jails.

Tirtharaj Prabhu once went out selling paintings and collected $800 in one day and donated all the money to the Prahlad and the Krishna kids project, so they could help other devotees around the world in the campaign to free Soviet devotees locked up in Russia, in early 1986 before they got the EMI contract.

Also in 1987-8 we collected 140,000 signatures around Australia on our Bus, (also financed by selling oil paintings) and along with the Krsna kids campaign, it helped secure the religious freedom in the Soviet Union, granted by the Soviet Government in 1988.

Anyway, back then I gradually learned what was going on behind the scene, Bhavananda was struggling to handle the extremely high level of worship he received, he certainly wasn't the pure devotee we all made him out to be to his disciples, but I was just struggling along myself, who was I to point the finger?

So I just glorified him like Ramai and all of my Godbrothers did, we had no idea the chaos of imitating a pure devotee would cause back then.

Back then we all thought we new everything, well I certainly didn't, stronger minded Godbrothers arrogantly made sure of that. (Actually now when I think about it now, it was only Bhavananda who stood up for me when other Godbrothers wanted to put me down) I therefore just followed my Godbrothers like Ramai Swami, who was totally innocently convinced he new absolutely everything, only so I could do the media service I was good at.

It's funny you now because Ramai had no choice in the matter in 1980, he was told by Bhavananda to take me travelling with him. In all fairness though, Ramai Swami took me on board himself in mid 1987 so I could help the devotees in both the Soviet preaching and the Hall programs we were having in Towns and Villages all over Ausralia.

In reality back then, we had the 'frog in the well' mentality, puffed up with the little knowledge we had, especially Ramai Swami, he thought he new everything, but now we can see how blind we all were back then, Ramai Swami had no idea how to lead and protect the lives of others. He did not know how to deal with or handle so many basic issues he new about, he new me better than I new myself at the time but still had no idea how too deal with me or anyone else for that matter. I was too insecure to not go along with it all, after all, ISKCON was my only family.

Personally Bhavananda treated me fine, over all the years he was always kind and encouraging to me, he never ever demanded worship off me; in fact in all fairness to him, it was his Godbrothers, including myself, who saw him as a substitute 'Prabhupada' so to speak, and then treated him like Prabhupada, building him up to be a 'Prabhupada' we called 'Vishnupada'. His Godbrothers gave him that name; he certainly never gave it to himself.

People can say what ever they like about him, but as far as I am concerned, I saw his love for Prabhupada and his sincerity. We have to take some of the blame for it all, as the saying goes,

'It's not just only the bad devotees who have caused all the problems in ISKCON, the blame and responsibility also must be shared by all those good hard working dedicated devotees with good intentions, who have stood by and did nothing, even when they KNEW wrong was being done, letting the bad things happen year after year after year and doing nothing about it!!!'. - Discribing ISKCON in the 1980s in Australia and America. Devotees new what was going on in the 80s, but did nothing.

See full-size image.

 

THE FUTURE OF ISKCON

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Vigraha

• 'It's not just only the bad devotees who have caused all the problems in ISKCON, the blame and responsibility also must be shared by all those good hard working dedicated devotees with good intentions, who have stood by and did nothing, even when they KNEW wrong was being done, letting the bad things happen year after year after year and doing nothing about it!!!'. - Discribing ISKCON in the1980s in Australia and America. Devotees new what was going on in the 80s, but did nothing.

It is certainly not ‘all’ Bhavananda’s fault either; his Godbrothers lavishly glorified him first before he had any disciples

Also he never ever demanded respect and worship off me, although Ramai Swami always would DEMAND it with threats to kick you out of the Temple if you did not fall at his feet, he was very arrogant, demanding and secretive and no-one could ever get too close to him.

He always treated me impersonally and always patronised me and others. On many occasions he would say “get down and bow when you see me coming’, he would demand proudly. Sadly he was a clever bully to those who were not submissive to him.

Anyway I never experienced that impersonalism with Bhavananda. It’s like Ramai had this invisible shield around him. I travelled with him for years like this and his 'coldness' was very frustrating. Even now he remains aloof from everyone even if his with them right in the middle of all the GBC men. Bhavananda was not like that. His Godbrothers, including myself, are to fault by taking his worship way over the top.

Back then, we had the 'frog in the well' mentality, puffed up with the little knowledge we had, especially Ramai Swami, he thought he new everything, but now we can see how blind we all were back then, Ramai Swami had no idea how to lead and protect the lives of others. 'He new everything that was going on'

He did not know how to deal with or handle so many basic issues he new about, he new me better than I new myself at the time but still had no idea how too deal with me or anyone else for that matter. I was too insecure to not go along with it all, after all, ISKCON was my only family.

Personally Bhavananda treated me fine, over all the years he was always kind and encouraging to me, he never ever demanded worship off me; in fact in all fairness to him, it was his Godbrothers, including myself, who saw him as a substitute 'Prabhupada' so to speak, and then treated him like Prabhupada, building him up to be a 'Prabhupada' we called 'Vishnupada'. His Godbrothers gave him that name; he certainly never gave it to himself.

Once again, when Bhavananda was away from his disciples, he was a reasonable person; he never ever raised his voice in anger to me, even though he did to others.

I remember one time I became disturbed by what he did when I was Temple Commander of Vrndavana Temple in 1978. We used to go around to all the rooms in the Temple and Gurukula to see if they were clean in the morning, on this occasion, Bhavananda came for the inspection, all the Gurukulis were suppose to be in the Temple room chanting.

However, there was one room where two Gurukulis were still sleeping, Bhavananda went into a rage when he went into their room, picked one of the boys, Ananda Prabhu, who was 10 or 11 years old at the time, and threw him into the wall, then picked him up and did it a second time. I stood by and watched in surprise as I did not know nor experience that side of Bhavananda, after all his role as Guru had only just begun

What could I do, that’s just how it was in those days because that how we were treated when we went to school in the 50s and 60s. (I was 17 when I first went to the Temple in 1971) Bhavananda then turned to me and said “these boys need discipline, this place is not a free motel, make sure no one is in any of these rooms during the morning program”

In my mind I was thinking I should have warned the boys that Bhavananda was inspecting the gurukuli rooms with us as I new they were resting. Afterwards I went back to see if Ananda was alright, he had a hobby of reading books on airplanes and jets, which he was reading when I went into see him, he just carried on like nothing had happened’

Ananda Prabhu had a gash to his head that I treated and bandaged and some bruises on his body, I told him what had happened to him shocked me because I did not know Bhavananda could get so violent, as I was talking to him, Danavir, his school teacher, came in and yelled at him more for not attending the morning program.

• Later I took him down Loi Bazaar in Vrndavana and we had a kumba Lassi drink (the best place in the world to get this drink) and checked out all the shops, he new so much about Vrndavana, showing me the best places to buy dhotis, shirts and Deities, then we visited Prabhupada’s room at the Radha Damodar Temple, Ananda Prabhu told me how early in the morning Srila Prabhupada would translate Srimad Bhagavatam and then chant his rounds. Afterwards walking around the samadhis of Jiva Goswami and Rupa Goswami chanting Hare Krishna. We then went to Davanala Kund and swam with others boys, on the banks of the Kund was a Shiva lingum and Ananda Prabhu and an older boy Dvarkadisha das ACBSP explained how the young girls from the village came to worship the lingum. I remember thinking what the early British Christian missionaries must of thought on seeing such worship. I remember someone took photos of us all swimming at Davanala Kund, love to see those photos now

In all fairness and honesty, the most probably reason very few did not speak or even recognise the truth all those years ago is, we were too young, inexperienced and immature to know any better. When Prabhupada left us in 1977, the average age of the devotees was only 26 years old. In India at that age one is still considered just boys and girls

Therefore, many also felt they were too fallen, useless and afraid to speak out about what little truth they new and expose the childish lies and difficult struggles of other very young devotees, who were also still learning how to be leaders and Gurus.

So they remained silent and lived the sentimental lie because they did not know any better, and look what happened - It turned out to be a very hard way to learn a lesson.

In other words we were not smart enough to learn through knowledge of the Veda, So we had to learn the hard way by trial and era

The fact is all the problems ISKCON faced in those years after 1977 was simply due to inexperience and immaturity.

These things happened due to the arrogence of our youth that convienced us we new EVERYTHING, their was no plan of deceit by anyone in the Temple, at least not in Australia and certainly not by me even though I did struggle as revealed in a letter Prabhupada sent me.

In all fairness there was an innocents back then that was in all the devotees because when one is young, as we all were back then, our ideals were very strong, we were very young and inexperienced in our attempts to understand and follow an age old religion.

There is a point and lesson in all this, don't let anyone tell you what you can, and cannot do if it shastically does not make sense!! Which means one has to learn and study Srila Prabhupada’s books so anyone, aspiring devotees or karmis does not treat one like a mushroom and used or mislead

And certainly never ever remain silent when you see things are not quite right, no matter how fallen you are.

The old immature ways and sentimental ideas in ISKCON have to be out grown if we are to learn and go forward instead of remaining stagnant within the realms of our pioneering immaturity years"

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The truth is often painful for some but their arrogent anger and threats will NEVER silence it

It was a joke. Why the crying icon?

I'm of dog mentality in this rare human body and feel very very sorry for all my offenses, but no one cares anymore. I miss the yearly visists to our Temple from Prabhupada

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>The Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, appeared 6 times to 3 shepherd children; Lucy, Francisco and Jacinta; between May 13 and October 13, 1917. She came to the little village of Fatima which had remained faithful to the Catholic Church during the recent persecutions by the government.

She came with a message from God to every man, woman and child of our century. Our Lady of Fatima promised that the whole world would be in peace, and that many souls would go to Heaven if Her requests were listened to and obeyed.

She told us that war is a punishment for sin; that God would punish the world for its sins in our time by means of war, hunger, persecution of the Church and persecution of the Holy Father, the Pope, unless we listened to and obeyed the commands of God.

At Fatima, Pope John Paul II said on May 13: "the Message of Fatima is more relevant and more urgent" than when Our Lady first appeared. The message is an anguished appeal of Our Heavenly Mother, Who sees us in great danger and Who comes to offer Her help and advice. Her message is also a prophecy, a clear indication of what was about to transpire in the 20th Century, and what is still going to happen infallibly in the near future, depending on our response to Her requests.

The Catholic Church has endorsed the Fatima Message since 1930. Five successive Popes have publicly indicated their approval of the apparitions of Our Lady at Fatima and Her message. Two Popes went to Fatima on Pilgrimage. Pope John Paul II went there twice, once on May 13, 1982 and again on May 13, 1991.

As a great sign of this whole message truly coming from God, a marvelous miracle was worked in the sky above Fatima before 70,000 witnesses on October 13, 1917, at the time, date and place that Lucy and the other two children had prophesied in the name of Our Lady of Fatima.

As also prophesied, Francisco and Jacinta died in the odor of sanctity in 1919 and 1920. Lucy became a Carmelite Sister. Sister Lucy is still alive today. She is 88 years old.

Our Lady of Fatima continues to work miracles today through Fatima water which is sent from Fatima around the world. This Fatima water sprang up in Fatima at the spot the Bishop told people to dig, very near where Our Lady appeared at the Cova da Iria (the Cove of Peace) in Fatima. Still other people are cured when they go on pilgrimage to Fatima, which is about 90 miles north of Lisbon, Portugal.

When he went to Fatima, Pope John Paul II said: "The Message of Fatima is addressed to every human being."

If we do not heed Her soon, then Our Lady’s terrifying prophecy may well be realized in the near future even in our own back yards.

She told us that God had chosen to use Russia as the instrument of chastisement to punish the whole world if we did not, by our prayers and sacrifices, and obedience to Her requests (especially those requests for consecration and Reparation) obtain the conversion of Russia to the Catholic faith.

She promised us, "If My requests are granted Russia will be converted and there will be peace".

But She also warned us, "If My requests are not granted, Russia will spread her errors throughout the world raising up wars and persecutions against the Church, the good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated."

She has told us that the whole world (the part surviving) will be enslaved by the atheistic tyrants of Russia.

In order to prevent these chastisements from befalling us She told us that special Reparation for sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary was necessary, particularly the Communions of Reparation on the First Saturday of five consecutive months and the public and solemn Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary by all the Catholic Bishops of the world, together with the Pope on the same day at the same hour.

Finally Her message is a promise of the eventual triumph of Her Immaculate Heart over evil.

She promised that no matter how black it might get in the future (and it seems that is the path chosen by most of humanity today) that in the end She will triumph, Her requests would finally be granted by mankind and there will be world peace.

It is up to each of us to listen, to read, to learn and to apply this Heavenly message in our own lives, particularly by praying the daily Rosary.

To the extent we can, we must also do all we can to see to it that this final warning from Our Heavenly Mother is spread and that its significance is explained to everyone before it is too late. We must not be complacent in the promise of Her eventual triumph because it is still dependent on our co-operation with God’s grace and His plan outlined at Fatima.

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"She told us that God had chosen to use Russia as the instrument of chastisement to punish the whole world if we did not, by our prayers and sacrifices, and obedience to Her requests (especially those requests for consecration and Reparation) obtain the conversion of Russia to the God Consciousness"

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An old friend of mine Gopta dasa had a book many years ago that told the true story of the Prahlad and the Krishna kids project in Australia in 1986 to help free Soviet Hare Krishna devotees. The book was very moving and in great detail

In that book it was explained how the krishna kids in 1985 once watched a film on what happen at Fatima. The Krishna kids were inspired and greatly moved by these childrens faith at Fatima and had actually inspired, along with a song back then called 'We are the world, we are the children' the Australian leg of the campaign to free persecuted Hare Krishna devotees in Russia was inspired.

The historical story is in that book Gopta has (nick name back then was helicopta). So if anyone knows Gopta dasa, who by now may have a new name due to the guru falldowns, please get him to put that story on the web.

Anyway sorry for this detour, now back to the monks in Japan.

Yes Krishna or Jesus does protect those with faith in God

"H-Bomb" ...sorry my mistake. As you can see, the actual article reads, "atomic." I don't think there's a religion out there that hasn't got huge stains of shame on it, somewhere.

 

The Catholic church, for sure! All that child abuse and what you mention - and other things you don't mention. Also, there are certainly many who wouldn't believe everything the ISKCON church says either.

 

I think it was a Chinese scholar who once said, "groups corrupt." But as far as individual Catholics, devotees ...or individuals taken from other faiths, who love God and worship Him ...their lives, works, miracles, etc. all glorify God in the most wonderful way and are very valuable.

 

You bold-out mundane religiosity. You're sort of saying that a person who spends their lifetime in love with Jesus Christ is just wasting away his/her life. Is this what you really mean to say?

Yes, you smashed me and I thank you for exposing my ignorance. Very well written to reveal my puffed-up pride and arrogence. I sincerely apologise.

Your ability to write and communicate is excellent, you even got through to a pasandi and anudas like me

Hare krsna

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Wow. Reminds me of the Lord in heart protecting Maharaja Pariksit from Asvatama's brahmastra.

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<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->At least you understand why

Actually I was thinking, maybe you are the proof what Prabhupada says that I am always repeating over the web, there you are sitting safely behind your computer, but here you are above in one of your projected forms preaching all over the internet in hundreds of cities all around this planet

 

For argument sake, lets just say 'humorously' you behind your computer is nitya-siddha in Krsnaloka serving Krsna, while the above cartoon identity of 'Theist' is your nitya baddha identity projected into the hyper space reality of the Internet, that I have compared ‘humorously’ to the mahat-tattva or material creation.

 

So just like you are on your computer safely in your home (Goloka) you are simultaneously at the same time, in the lounge rooms of millions of homes all around the world in hyper space (mahat-tattva).

 

Could this be similar to how we are permanently on Goloka and are only projecting ourselves to the mahat-tattva?

Yeah, you have to have followed the basis of this joke to understand what Sarva is saying, Not many would understand this but Theist would understand because he was part of the 'origin of the jiva' debate years ago when it began

There were no H-bombs during world war two, they were not developed until 1949

I wouldn't believe everything the Catholic church says either, the way they exploited and forced their nonsense Pope in India is unforgivable

Interesting reading though. Remember its not so much the body we need to protect, it's the soul. Whats the point of having a healthy body in mundane religiousity that lives a long time without Krishna?

The reason why Krishna appears in this world, could be that this is your ulterior motive, to cause Krishna to appear and correct the deviants. Since this is Krishna's main concern to keep the parampara system working perfectly and deliver the fallen souls

 

It should be clear that any messing around is most sinful and as we see, ISKCON didn't learn anything from the past 30 years. Prabhupada also mentions the term "rebellious" quite often. Could be that this is our real problem.

No this is not true, many are learning while a few GBC's are holding on to the old ways. Many are trying to understand what happened

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

So the next question is, why did many accept the ‘chosen gurus’ in the same way, after Prabhupada's passing, out of good faith, thinking they represented Prabhupada?

Weren't they just like the early Prabhupada disciples who followed him, yet eventually dicovered 'over a period of time, they were being mislead because such 'appointed gurus' were nothing like Prabhupada?

Yes, as already stated, MOST did not know who Prabhupada really was in the beginning, maybe a few did, however for most of us, he proved to us, over time he was and is a pure devotee of Krsna with his wonderful example of what is expected of a pure devotee. As a result of getting to know Prabhupada more and more, our faith and understanding of who he really is, increased.

In the same way, many of the second generation of devotees also did not really know if their gurus are pure devotees either. In actual fact, most were attracted to the movement because of Prabhupada. However, due to him not being physically present after 1977, they took shelter of one of his eleven guru disciples, who they expected to be like Prabhupada.

Once again the test of time would proved nearly all of them were not pure devotees and that they were just imitating Prabhupada

Again, it is the test of time. One by one these new gurus began falling down.

AGAIN I EMPHASIZE Remember, Prabhupada past the test of time, he came alone to America, preached to all who wanted to hear, wrote so many books, established so many Temple, taught the devotees everything from devotee dress to cooking to building Rathayatra carts. He never wavered and so devotees became stronger in there worship and love for him. Many might not of realized whom he was when they joined, but other time, they saw in him, due to his actions and preaching, the pure devotee that he is

A good example of one seeking for a guru is George Harrison, his first choice of a guru was not Prabhupada, he first went to Mahesh yogi and thought he was a great transcendentalist but as soon as he saw that he tried to have sex with Mia Farrows sister, he rejected him as bogus, he was exposed by the test of time. If any so called guru fails the test of time, then they must be rejected. On the other hand Prabhupada never ever wavered and was preaching about Krishna to his last breath in Vrndavana in 1977, in this way I might not of known he was a pure devotee as a young seeking 17 year old right at the begining of his ISKCON Movement, but I certainly do know now.

There is another consideration also thet is very difficult to understand, personally, why was I within the first 20 devotees to join the movement in Australia? Why did others come to the movement after Prabhupada had left this world and experience the ‘guru bungle years? We can only presume our past lives have a lot to do with all this

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Theist

Good analogy comparing eggs to milk. Milk is the transformation of cow's blood and eggs are the transformation of chicken blood.

I see the arguement as not one for the consumption of eggs but of one of not drinking milk.

Presently both cows and chickens are horribly mistreated in the collection of milk and eggs. You may not consider taking their products as violent but because of the way they are mis-treated to produce those products to use either is directly supporting violence.

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And most import, Krsna's Cows Milk that gives the Deities Ghee, curd, yoghurt, way, lassi, gulabs, sandish and about a thousand other preparations made from milk Krsna is also a Cowherd Boy

A projection, hologram, dreaming or telecasting thoughts to the mahat-tattva, whatever it takes to explain we are dreaming from our marginal identity thats full potential and permanent bodily identity (nitya-siddha) is ETERNALLY in Goloka

I like that the above. The following makes more sense than all the ramblings that we come from the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

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Srila Prabhupada - "You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, Actually, you are NOT conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Comment - All marginal living entities in Vaikuntha can project a hologram version of themselves known as the nitya-baddha consciousness to the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu where the baddha-jiva, described here as a holographic projection or extension of the marginal living entities sub-conscious thoughts and dreams, that imagine oneselves in a world without serving Krishna, and the perpetual nitya-siddha bodily form (who they really are ETERNALLY in Krishna Lila) they are dreaming and projecting all their selfish dreams from. Such nonsense dreams expressed as the baddha-jiva consciousness, are then given bodily vessels of mahat-tattva origin so they can live out their dreams as if they where real.

That holographic dream world creation is the mahat-tattva. However unlike the English meaning of the word hologram, than means an unreal illusion, this new meaning of the word hologram means it is very real, but temporary

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The documentry starts after add

http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=en-au&brand=ninemsn&vid=3ce7aafb-356f-4d14-9532-a04e0d8445c8&fg=rss

Then you may care to enlighten us a little about Ugrasena's 30 TRILLION bodyguards. Where did they live, and what about their wives, children and relatives? Did they moonlight as road-sweepers? Perhaps they all existed in a parallel reality, unseen by the peoples of this world? You seem to not be capable of differentiating between Hindu mythology and real spiritual essence. I differ with Theist on many counts, but his standpoint is far more rational and reasonable than your childish insistence on the historicity of what amounts to nothing more than poetic licence and in some instances pre-scientific hyperbole.

 

Religion has a purpose to serve, and that purpose does not equate with what contemporary scholarship purports to offer; in fact, only those who have relinquished the power of reason can have the cheek to place the imaginatively rich fables of old on a par with modern science.

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There were mystical powers, huge cities floating in the air at the same time the biological evolutionary process was going on the floor of the planet that the 'celestials Vedic universal travellers' left alone.

The idea that Satya-yuga, Treta and the earlier parts of Dvapara-yuga, even though on this planet, existed in a higher realm of material reality distinguished from the mundane evolution of us humans and the lower species of life going happening on the planets surface, sounds correct?

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All primitive cultures are coming up from the evolutionary process on this material gross planet, where the soul eventually again receives human form. Because it is inherent in human nature (because ALL living entities are in there baddha-jivas condition of forgetful consciousness while in the material creation of Maha-Vishnu), these human tribes, coming up through the lower biological species or life, develop their own speculative beliefs in a God when they attain the earthly human primitive body. <?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p>

On the other hand there is Knowledge (Veda) that comes down to this planet from the demigods from the celestial levels of material existence (the sub-space heavenly planets). Even still a part of the material universes, the Veda has been passed down like this to our planet.

<u1:p></u1:p>The beginning of Kali-yuga is where the human tribes, born from coming up from the lower species and the celestial beings who came down from the heavenly planets who followed the Vedas, crossed paths.

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This was only possible due to the Dvapara-yuga being degraded into the beginning of Kali-yuga that allowed the lowly 'planet tribes' to invade and be eventually be influenced by of the 'more celestial beings that followed the Vedas. This is why Sanskrit Is the language of the demigods.

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Also Satya-yuga. Tretta-yuga and the most of the Dvapara, even though on this planet, were more celestial than earthly and existed in the sky of this planet on not on the surface.

 

There were mystical powers, huge cities floating in the air at the same time the biological evolutionary process was going on the floor of the planet that the 'celestials Vedic universal travellers' left alone.

This is why no evidence is found of the Satya, Tretta or Dvapara-yuga’s (except towards the end of Dvapara when it has virtually been degraded down to the planets surface).

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Then Krishna came right at the very end of Dvapara-yuga, then after the battle at Kurukshetra, the Kali-yuga began and the invasion of the annoying primitive animal like barbaric human tribes, now had evolved enough to plunder the remanets of what was left from the Vedic culture.

 

In the process, some of these barbaric tribes adapted to many practises, from cooking to rituals and prayer that gradually influenced many 'gross worldly' primitive cultures, like tribes in the Indian region and even Judaism.

 

However, the Vedic culture was so degraded by then, the influnce was weak and scattered because most of the saintly sages had already left the planet to escape the on coming storm of Kali-yuga

 

What is degradation to the Vedic celestial interplanetary beings, where their presents on this planet had virtually disappeared by the time the age of Kali-yuga begins, is actually a blessing for the primitive humans that have evolved from the evolution in the jungles on this planet

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Noted Hitler was a demon. Also noted was that Churchill was not mentioned. He said Lenin and Stalin.

Yeah I threw that in because of his attempt to never let India self govern, his arrogence and refusal to meet politician among the 'so called saints' Ghandi, ordering the unessessary bombing of Dreshden and plainly just being a arrogent backside to the Australians and Canadians

Anyway enough of this mundane nonsense

Where was everyone up to regarding If we could only see what the material univese really looks like?

Letter to: Krsnadasa

—

Vrindaban

7 November, 1972

72-11-07

 

My Dear Krsnadasa,

Yes, sometimes in Vedas such things like the asura's decapitated head chasing after Candraloka, sometimes it is explained allegorically.

 

Just like now we are explaining in 4th Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam the story of King Puranjana. Just like the living entity is living within this body, and the body is described there as city with nine gates, the intelligence as the Queen.

 

So there are sometimes allegorical explanations. So there are many things which do not corroborate with the so-called modern science, because they are explained in that way.

But where is the guarantee that modern science is also correct?

 

So we are concerned with Krishna Consciousness, and even though there is some difference of opinion between modern science and allegorical explanation in the Bhagavat, we have to take the essence of Srimad-Bhagavatam and utilize it for our higher benefit, without bothering about the correctness of the modern science or the allegorical explanation sometimes made in Srimad-Bhagavatam.

 

But this is a fact that in each and every planet there is a predominant deity, as we have got experience in this planet there is a president, so it is not wonderful when the predominating deity fights with another predominating deity of another planet.

 

The modern science takes everything as dead stone. We take it for granted that everything is being manipulated by a person in each and every affair of the cosmology.

 

The modern scientists however could not make any progress in the understanding of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, therefore we do not accept modern science as very perfect. We take Krishna's version:

 

Regarding Hitler, so Hitler may be good man or bad man, so what does he help to our Krishna Consciousness movement?

 

But it is a fact that much propaganda was made against him, that much I know, and the Britishers are first-class propagandists. And I have heard that his officers did everything without informing him, just like in our ISKCON there are so many false things: "Prabhupada said this, Prabhupada said that.''

 

But we have nothing to do with Hitler in our Krishna Consciousness. Do not be deviated by such ideas

 

quote "Whoever knows Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, without doubting, is to be understood as the knower of everything, and he engages himself therefore in devotional service''—this is the understanding of advanced devotee, so my best advice to you is to agree to come to this understanding.

 

Your ever well wisher,

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

Very interesting letter

However lets make it very clear that Prabhupada new Hitler was a demon just like Churchill and Starlin

Srila Prabhupada - "What this rascal, Hitler, can do? But he has no faith in God. He thinks Prabhu Hitler is greater than Lord. Prabhu Hitler. That is the difference between the crows and the swans. The crows think that we have got food in the garbage. And the swans think that we have got food in nice garden, in the clear water. And that is difference even in the birds kingdom".The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust

Srila Prabhupada -"There were so many asuras in this world. There were Lenin, there were Stalin, there were Hitler, there were Hiranyakasipu. So many. But they could not survive. It is not possible. They'll be finished". Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.8.20

Mayapura, September 30, 1974