Alex J

Dear mahaksadasa Prabhu, I'll gladly receive your friendship, and I'll offer you mine. Sincerely, Alex

DISAPPOINTED Disappointed Promises Promises Old tired Worn out second hand sentences One thing With you is certain You’re a really sad person So sad Disappointed a few people When friendship reared its ugly head Disappointed a few people Well, isn't that what friends are for What are friends for You You're just a really bad person Who won't You won't listen to anyone No not you With those half moon eyelids Just babbling on Your useless defences So sad Disappointed a few people When friendship reared its ugly head Disappointed a few people Well, isn't that what friends are for What are friends for This erratic haphazard Fluttering This to-ing and fro-ing Like a confused moth The collusion Illusion And it's all ad infinitum You're a really sad person You're really so sad Disappointed a few people When friendship reared its ugly head Disappointed a few people Well, isn't that what friends are for What are friends for Fools and horses Running their courses And brow beaten down Like dust on the ground You cheat easily Like sweet charity And all of the bastards The world despises Springing surprises In newer disguises You cheat easily Like all charity

Dear Prabhus, When I saw the title of this topic, I was reminded me of an excerpt attributed to Bhanu Swami, which I found not too long ago on a sub-page of the veda.harekrsna.cz website, and which I found interesting: <o:p></o:p> "Gangamata Goswamini didn't perform yajna. No one in Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya did yajna for initiations.They just gave out mantras without much fanfare. There is pancaratric ceremony including yajna for Vaisnava initiation, but the origins of the yajna we perform seem to come solely from the custom set up by Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati to give upanayanam Vedic samskara after giving Vaisnava mantras."<o:p></o:p> Sincerely, Alex

Dear Murali Mohan Prabhu, Thank you for your reply. By using the word "ponderous", do you mean something like "lacking grace and fluency, wanting, labored, awkward, dull"? Or do you mean something along the lines of "important, forcible, heavy, momentous"? Sincerely, Alex

Dear Prabhus, As I was riding the bus to work this morning, I thought of another excerpt from an email exchange that I was considering to share with the Audarya Fellowship forum. It's from another correspondence that I had with Dhira Govinda Prabhu, this one from September 9th, 2004. Originally I was thinking of posting it in the "Should the Truth Be Always Spoken?" thread, but I think I'll post it here. Sincerely, Alex --------- Alex: Do you have any thoughts on why there is not more of a genuine commitment to truth in ISKCON? Dhira Govinda dasa: We could expound on this at length, though we won't do that here. Basically, it seems to me, preservation of the organization and its various institutions, such as the guru system, has become more important than commitment to truth. Such attempts at preservation are seen as being the highest truth. Preserving the status quo of the organization is regarded as the highest service to Srila Prabhupada and Krsna. With such a view, we don't need to consciously consider what Srila Prabhupada would actually want, what is genuinely Krsna conscious, what makes sense, what is functional. Rather, we just act in a way so that the organization survives. It is survival mode, rather than living mode. Of course, if members of the organization acted in living mode, then the manifestation of the organization would be at an immensely higher and more potent level than when attempting to merely and barely survive. So, this organizational survival strategy is overtly justified as being to please Srila Prabhupada and to protect the devotees. If we delve deeper, however, I believe we'll find that that mode of operation is to protect some persons who benefit, or at least appear to benefit, from the existing state of affairs. Much more could be said about this. Perhaps we'll discuss or correspond about that some other time. <!-- text below generated by server. PLEASE REMOVE --></OBJECT></LAYER> </SPAN>

Dear mahaksadasa Prabhu, I've reprinted your post in the PL forum, and I've passed on your regards to the forum members. Sincerely, Alex

Dear mahaksadasa Prabhu, Thank you for your post, where you shared some of your thoughts, realizations, and personal experiences. In the excerpt quoted above, do you perhaps have in mind the following statement from Srila Prabhupada? Srila Prabhupada: In this condition, even I cannot move my body on the bed. Only chance you should give me--let me die little peacefully, without any anxiety. I have given in writing everything, whatever you wanted--my will, my executive (?) power, everything. Disaster will happen if you cannot manage it. Hm? [Srila Prabhupara Room Conversation October 2, 1977, Vrndavana] I agree with what you've expressed above. Dear Vedesu Prabhu, Thank you for the quote. Yes, I'm familiar with it. Dear gHari Prabhu, Thank you for sharing with me about the purifying experience that you felt, as you listened to to four hours of Sri Caitanya Bhagavata. Sincerely, Alex

Dear Prabhus, I'd like to share some excerpts from an email correspondence that I had with Dhira Govinda Prabhu, on March 8th, 2005. I find the points that he brings up interesting, and today I felt inspired to share these excerpts with the Audarya Fellowship forum. Perhaps others will find them interesting as well. Sincerely, Alex ---------- Dhira Govinda dasa: Thank you for sharing this. I will be glad to hear from you, and discuss with you, regarding your doubts about Srila Prabhupada. I believe that such doubts are healthy to express and openly and honestly examine. If you think sharing and discussing with me will be valuable in this regard, I am available. Alex: One doubt I have is that certain things that are attributed to Srila Prabhupada seem rajastic to me. Perhaps this vision comes to me via the Lilamrta...and perhaps the Lilamrta does not accurately represent Srila Prabhupada. I had the feeling that Srila Prabhupada sometimes stressed expansion of the institution over and above the personal sadhana of it's members. I find japa a transformative experience. A grounding and clearing process. I remember hearing or reading pastimes where Srila Prabhupada seemed to be telling devotees that it was okay to do devotional work rather than chant. I think it was in connection with the construction of a temple in India...perhaps in Mayapur. From what I recall a devotee was working hard on temple construction and was not making time to chant japa and Srila Prabhupada seemed to be condoning this. Another doubt is in connection with gurukula and the abuses that took place. I have questions like "Was Prabhupada naive?" and "Did he know what was going on?" Dhira Govinda dasa: Thank you for sharing your thoughts and doubts about these things. I hear that, based on some things you've heard, Srila Prabhupada's focus and mood seemed at times to be rajasic, in the sense of concentrating more on expansion rather than sattvic cultivation of sadhana. This discussion between us would likely be facilitated by specific examples of things Srila Prabhupada said and did that concern you, that cause you doubts. These examples would need to be valid, meaning that we know they come from Srila Prabhupada. Also, it's important to view examples in context. From my study of Srila Prabhupada's books, letters, conversations and lectures, I find his teachings to be balanced. Perhaps the youthfulness and maybe immaturity of those who received his instructions focused on a particular interpretation and perspective, more reflective in some instances of their natures than on Srila Prabhupada's intentions. In any event, surely there are "pastimes where Srila Prabhupada seemed to be telling devotees that it was okay to do devotional work rather than chant." I'd be glad to discuss particulars of such instances, in the context in which they were given. My experience and impression of the totality of Srila Prabhupada's teachings is balance, with flexibility and sensitivity to individual natures. The principles described above apply, as far as I'm concerned, to the discussion about gurukula. I do have quite a bit of contact with the details of that part of history, by dint of my service for 6+ years with the child protection office. Here is one example. While interviewing a Vaisnava youth he shared the following. Currently he is in his mid-thirties. When he was 9 years old he was sent to Vrndavana, from the United States. This was in November, 1977. Sharing his experience, it was clear that for a 9 year old to leave his mother for India was distressing. Still, overall his experience, despite the homesickness, was one of fun and adventure. He spoke positively of his experience in the Vrndavana gurukula, at least for the first few months when he arrived there. Who did Srila Prabhupada put in charge of the Vrndavana gurukula? Srila Prabhupada had many followers. To manage the gurukula in Vrndavana he appointed a man named Dr. Sharma. As far as I'm aware Dr. Sharma was not a follower of Srila Prabhupada. From what I understand he may not even have been a Vaisnava. He was a respectable Indian gentleman, with caring and common sense. From the descriptions given by this Vaisnava youth, and many others who were in Vrndavana at the time, Dr. Sharma was a very loving school principal. Sometimes he slapped the children, though I never heard complaints about his slapping. I heard things like "When he slapped us, we know we deserved it, and we felt that he cared about us." So, from many descriptions I've heard, the Vrndavana gurukula was austere, though overall a healthy environment, materially and spiritually. To continue with the story of the Vaisnava youth mentioned above- he reported that after the GBC meetings early in 1978, the first GBC meetings after Srila Prabhupada's departure, everything changed. His childhood life in Vrndavana became a nightmare. Dr. Sharma, and his staff, were removed, replaced by persons who complied with the political agenda of the ISKCON leaders. The mood in the school drastically changed. Brutality replaced compassion. Horror stories abounded. From many Vaisnava youth I've heard stories of personal encounters with Srila Prabhupada. He would see them, inquire about their clothes, their health, etc. Srila Prabhupada's personal dealings with children were filled with responsibility and caring. Also, based on what he was informed about regarding child mistreatment, he acted responsibly, at least based on the information to which I have access, which is more information on the topic than perhaps almost anyone else, considering my experience as APVC director for more than six years. For example, once he was told that a teacher beat a child ("beat" is different than the loving slap of Dr. Sharma), hurting the child. Srila Prabhupada was deeply disturbed. He became emotional and said "he [the teacher] should be hung...he should be hung...he should be hung..." Not that Srila Prabhupada was advocating hanging the teacher by the neck, but it shows the mood of Srila Prabhupada towards such activities as brutal beatings of children. In the one case of sexual child abuse that, as far as I'm aware, Srila Prabhupada was informed of, he said that the abuser should not be allowed in the temple. "Perhaps the youthfulness and maybe immaturity of those who received his instructions focused on a particular interpretation and perspective, more reflective in some instances of their natures than on Srila Prabhupada's intentions." Here's an example of that, related to the gurukula conversation. It became known throughout the ISKCON schools that, supposedly, Srila Prabhupada wanted the children to eat only three chappatis per day. So, in the actual conversation where Srila Prabhupada said that, it was clear that he was talking in an informal way, not laying down some authoritarian edict. He was in a relaxed mood, and some teachers came to him and asked him about the children's diet, and in a casual way he said something like [i'm paraphrasing] "Yes, they can have some subjis and rice, two or three chappatis...like that...." So, somehow it became a "rule" that children should not eat more than 3 chappatis.... Srila Prabhupada set up an effective system for managing temples around the world. This system involves a temple president, a treasurer, etc. In some instances those who filled positions within that system represented Srila Prabhupada's mood and desires very well. In other instances not so well, and in some cases they performed shamefully. Similarly, from my perspective, with the schools. Srila Prabhupada set up a system to educate children. Many who served within that system did so admirably. Others created a mess. I hope this has begun to address some of your doubts and questions, or at least provided some framework and paradigm for further consideration. With regards to the gurukula topic, I have written extensively about it. For example in the book, published by Columbia University Press, The Hare Krsna Movement- The Postcharismatic Fate of a Religious Transplant, I wrote a chapter entitled Child Abuse and the Hare Krishnas: History and Response. I recommend that you read that for additional information and valuable perspective on this topic." [Also, in the Journal of Religion and Abuse I've published an article related to this topic entitled Child Abandonment and Religious Organizations: A Case Study.] (...) <!-- text below generated by server. PLEASE REMOVE --> In assessing the doubts and issues you raise, it is essential to separate Srila Prabhupada's words, actions and intentions, from the response and reactions of individuals and of the institution. I have thought deeply about these things and, for whatever it's worth, by looking honestly at them, my faith in Srila Prabhupada has actually increased. I encourage you to face your doubts and explore them fully. The conclusions you draw may not be the same as mine. Still, I possess conviction that the process for you will be a healthy and productive one.

Dear Murali Mohan Prabhu, Thank you for sharing with me your thoughts and realizations on this topic. I acknowledge that I'm responsible for the consequences of the choices that I make, including where I choose to put my focus. For whatever it's worth, when I write an article such as the one that was posted in this thread, I feel like a weight has been lifted off my chest. I feel my sense of clarity, my feelings of hope, and my enthusiasm for Krsna Consciousness increase. Sincerely, Alex

Dear Murali Mohan Prabhu, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Thank you for your comments. My understanding is that there are individuals, and then there are groups. General patterns or dynamics can manifest within groups. Groups can have different degrees of internal homogeneity. Different individuals within a given group may be affected by general patterns and dynamics to various degrees. I don't believe that generalizations are inherently impersonal, I think they can be accurate acknowledgements of patterns within a group. For example, in a letter from 1970 to Hanuman Prasad Poddar, Srila Prabhupada writes: "I knew that Western people are too much addicted to so many forbidden things according to our Vedic conception of life." The above is a generalization. In other words, it's the description of a perceived general pattern. Is it impersonal? Certainly Western people are spirit souls, no two are the same. Based on my experience, I get the impression that certain aspects of the culture of the ISKCON organization rest on a foundation of self-deception. I also get the impression that these patterns of self-deception tend to affect, to various degrees, and in various ways, people who participate in the organization. Hare Krsna. Your servant, Alex

Dear mahaksadasa Prabhu, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Thank you for your words of appreciation. I feel touched and honoured to read them. For whatever it's worth, I don't self-identify as a "ritvik", though I don't have a problem with people who identify themselves in that way. Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu, from whom I received the name "Abhayasraya dasa" in 2000 in Philly, continues to engage in sadhana bhakti, and is a leader within the ISKCON organization. I feel genuine gratitude towards him, in connection with many of the things that I feel I've learned from him. That being said, I no longer consider him an authority in my life. For that reason, and for some other reasons also, I don't use the name that he assigned to me. I have a friend who self-identifies as a "ritvik", who consistently calls me "Abhayasraya". I guess it's not a big deal, though I honestly prefer "Alex". Hare Krsna. Your servant, Alex

Dear Kulapavana Prabhu, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Thank you for your posts. I haven't read Shipwreck of a Generation. I got my Berger quotes from an article entitled "Soviet socialist realizm and the soviet censorship system", by Martin Dewhirst, who quotes from Berger's book. Dewhirst refers to Berger as a Polish Communist, and I guess I just took that and went with it, without doing much other research about Joseph Berger. Hare Krsna. Your servant, Alex