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  1. From THE HINDU, Saturday, August 29, 1998





    Bringing the ‘lost’ Saraswati back to life


    Interview with Dr. Naresh K. Gupta


    By Sarabjit Pandher


    CHANDIGARH, August 28,


    Unlike their normal behaviour , scholars, historians, archaeologists, hydro-geologists and recent breed of experts on satellite imagery, are seriously involved in proving a mythological legend. This group of researchers, working separately in different parts of the world, are bent upon bringing the mythical river Saraswati into the realm of reality and pave the way to push back the history of civilisation in the Indian sub-continent by a few thousand years.


    Based on the evidence provided by hydro-geological and archaeological studies, scientists are convinced that the mythological river – named after the Goddess Saraswati – was actually a major source of sustaining civilisation in this part of the subcontinent till 2000 to 1500 B.C. However, they argue that contrary to the belief that the Saraswati flowed eastwards to form a confluence with rivers Ganga and Yamuna at Allahabad, it actually crossed the plains westwards to fall in the Arabian Sea after forming a confluence with the Yamuna and Sutlej.


    It is now being said that Saraswati originated from the "Har-ki-dhun" glacier in West Garhwal along with river Yamuna. The two rivers flowed parallel and joined to flow westwards, with more rivulets and seasonal rivers joining the flow. Saraswati then followed the course of the present Ghaggar, which flows along the inter-state border of Punjab and Haryana. The Sutlej (referred to as Shatdru in the Vedas) joined Saraswati as a tributary near the present township of Shatrana about 25 km south of Patiala city.


    After assuming a massive size, Saraswati followed the course of Ghaggar in Rajasthan, Hakra in Bhawalpur (now in Pakistan) and emptied via the bed of Nara in Sindh, into the Arabian Sea through the Rann of Kutch, they believe.


    As regards the Indus Valley civilisation, archaeologists have discovered the existence of more settlements in India than in Pakistan. As the 1400 discovered sites were plotted on a map, it was found that the settlements were more concentrated along the Saraswati, which is now Ghaggar in India and Hakra and Nara in Pakistan. Scientists say that the chance discovery of the Harappa and Mohenjodaro sites along the Indus River in the 1920s, led Sir John Marshall to name the settlements as the Indus Valley civilisation. They advocate that it should be rechristened as the saraswati-Sindhu civilisation.


    Scientists quote the recent images by Landsat – one in the series of satellites launched by the US for remote sensing – to confirm the existence of a large number of underground faults in the earthquake-prone North western region of India, that constituted the Saraswati-Sindhu valley. The Sindhu river is now known as Indus. Such faults have caused the seepage of Saraswati water to underground channels, contributing to the legend that the Vedic river disappeared.


    According to an US-based researcher, Dr. Naresh K. Gupta, the Saraswati, once a mighty river, was lost due to seismic activity, which resulted in a change in the course of perennial tributaries like Yamuna and Sutlej. He traces a change in the ground level by extending the line of the Aravalli range northwards to the Himalayas. At Paonta sahib, the seismic changes resulted in the Yamuna changing its course eastwards to join the Ganga at Allahabad. Approximately during the same period, which is calculated to be around 2000 B.C. the Sutlej took a turn westwards, near Ropar town of Punjab to join the Beas (referred to as Vipasa in the Vedas).


    Dr. Gupta says that it is probable that the desertification of Rajasthan also took place at the same time. He quotes hydro-geological evidence to explain that the existence of underground faults and movement of sand could have caused seepage of the remaining water of the Saraswati, and leaving the river bed dry.


    It was in 1980, that scientists like Professor Yashpal are said to have recognised the palaeo- channels of the Saraswati using satellite imagery. In 1996, Professor Valdiya is attributed to have traced the course of the river from West Garhwal in the Himalayas to the Gulf of Khambat in Gujarat using hydro-geological techniques. In 1997, Dr. S. M. Roy and Dr. K. M. Kulkarni of the Bhaba Atomic Research center, are reported to have used low levels of Tritium – a naturally occurring isotope – as evidence to prove that water trapped in the underground channels, below the bed of the ancient river, in some parts of Rajasthan belonged to the Saraswati.


    In his paper, "Saraswati: Legend or History", Dr. Gupta also refers to the 200 page monogram compiled by the Chennai based Dr. S. Kalyanaraman, who took premature retirement from the Asian Development Bank to work on the Saraswati river project. He set up the Saraswati-Sindhu Research Center at Chennai. The map depicted in the book shows the ancient river system in the North-western part of the country, which superimposes on the current river system in the Indo-Gangetic plains.


  2. The thing that concerns me is that every time an article like this comes out in support of an ancient Indian city most devotees rush forward as if this supports their faith in a an Advanced Vedic civilization.

    If fact more often than not these findings do not support a distant advanced civilzation. What has been shown is that these ancient un-earthed cities were living in the copper-bronze age! They had not even yet discovered IRON.


    Which brings us to why modern archaeologists and geologists do not accept the antiquity of the Mahabharata war..

    If a Mahabharata war had actually been fought on the scale reported, nearly five million fighting men killed each other in an 18-day battle between Delhi and Thanesar; about 130,000 chariots (with their horses), an equal number of elephants and thrice that many riding horses were deployed. This means at least as many camp-followers and attendants as fighters. A host of this size could not be supplied without a total population of 200 millions, which India did not attain till the British period, and could not have reached without plentiful and cheap iron and steel for ploughshares and farmers' tools. Iron was certainly not available in any quantity to Indian peasants before the 6th century BC.


    just presenting the other side...



  3. B.B. Lal, Director General (Retd.) Archaeological Survey of India


    I. The ‘Why’ of the Ayodhya Excavations

    There exists a great divergence of opinion regarding the historicity of the two Indian epics, viz. the Mahabharata and the Ramayana. According to some, everything mentioned in these texts is true to the very letter, whi.le others regard them as mere figments of the imagination. Such confusion seems to prevail because there are no inscriptions contemporary with the events mentioned in these epics, which could indisputably authenticate their historicity. The earliest inscriptions available in India date back to the third-fourth century BC (letting aside the inscriptions of the Indus Civilization, which, unfortunately, still remain undeciphered). On the other hand, the events narrated in the Mahabharata and the Ramayana, if these had a basis in historical reality, are unlikely to have been later than the time of the Buddha, i .e. the sixth century BC, since the history of India after the Buddha is so well known that it is difficult to accommodate the Mahabharata and Ramayana events thereafter .

    2. Since no contemporary inscriptional. evidence is available to establish the historicity of these two epics, the only way in which an archaeologist can tackle the issue is to excavate/explore the sites associated with the respective texts . And the great advantage in approaching the problem in such a matter is that all the sites mentioned in these epics bear the same names even today. This is mainly because these sites have remained under almost continuous occupation ever since the first settlement began thereat. Hence the authenticity of their names. ‘Thus, for example, there is only one Hastinapura, one Mathura and only one Ayodhya and one Chitrakuta.


    3. With the aforesaid background, I took up, way back in the early l95Os, excavations/exploratios at Hastinapura and other sites associated with the Mahabharata story and discovered a common material culture, (called in archaeological parlance the Painted Grey Ware Culture) in the lower levels thereof. The settlement at Hastinapura, the keysite in the story dated to a period from ca. 1100 to 800 BC. Not only were the sites interlocked with one and the same material culture but a very significant archaeological evidence also turned up fully corroborating the literary statement which runs as follows:


    Gari gayapahrte tasmin, nagare nagasahvaye Tyaktva Nichakshur-nagaram Kausambyam sa nivatsyati “ i e. ‘‘ When the city of Hastinapura is carried away by the Gari ga, Nichakshu will abandon it and will go to Kaudambi. “


    Excavations at Hastinapura have brought to light evidence of a massive destruction of the Painted Grey Ware settlement on account of a flood in the nearby Gari ga. Not only were large-scale erosional scars duly identified on the river-side face of the mound but even a part of the washed-away material was recovered f’rom the borings done in the river-bed f rom as much as 15 metres below the surface. Further, excavations at Kausamba, have brought to light from its lowest levels archaeological material which represents a continuum from Hastinapura.


    4. The results of the excavations/explorations at Hastinapura and other sites associated with the Mahabharata story were publised in Anclent India, nos lO and 11 (1954-55), pp. 4-151. Archaeologists and historians all over the world have since accepted that there did exist a kernel of truth at the base of the epic, though no doubt archaeology cannot provide evidence of Lord Krishna having spilled the butter pot!


    5. The question then arose about the historicity of the Ramayana. And the same methodology was applied in this case as well. Five sites associated with the story were excavated; viz. Ayodhya, the capita1 of the Kosala kingdom; Sringaverapura where Rama, Lakshmana and Sita were ferried across the Ganga by the Nishada chieftain Guha; Bharadvaja Asrama where they sojourned for a while to pay their obeisance to the sage Chitrakuta where they stayed for quite some time before proceeding further south, and Nandigrama from where Bharata looked after the kingdom in the absence of Rama. The work commenced in 1975 and continued up to 1986 -- a long period of twelve years. A full report on the Sringaverapura tank has since (1993) been published. Work on the other Report is in hand. It may take another four to five years to bring out these Reports.


    6. However, the net outcome may be mentioned here very briefly. All these sites have yielded the lowest common denominator in the form of the Northern Black Polished ware (NBPW) Culture, dating back to ca. Seventeenth century BC. More importantly, sites like Bharadvaja Asrama, which is just a flat piece of land and not a mound as all other sites are, has also yielded the same kind of material in its earliest levels as did Ayodhya. Further, the occurrence of the NBP potsherds in a stray manner, often mixed up with the riversand, and the finding of postholes and clay lumps with reed impressions showed that the site was only casually inhabited with wattle and daub huts, as one might expect in the case of an asrama. These discoveries were first published in Antiquity (England), vol . LV 1981, pp. 27-34, and have been well received.


    7. As stated in the opening paragraph, it is next to impossible to get any contemporary inscription to authenticate the historicity of these epics. Thus one has to depend on the kind of archaeological evidence such as discussed above. In sum, it seems that these epics did have a basis in historical reality, were originally sung as ballads and 1ater on, when the art of writing became common, were reduced to a textua1 format. In this process, a lot of interpolation took place and poetic imagination had its play. For example, the Mahabharata, which consists of approximately 100, 000 verses now, was at one time known as the Bharata comprising 24,000 verses and at a still earlier stage had only 8, 000 verses and was called the Jaya.


    8. A nearly 60-page long paper entitled “ Historicity of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana: What has Archaeology to say in the Matter” was presented at an international conference on ‘New Archaeology and India’, organized by the Indian Council of Historical Research way back in 1988. Every time an enquiry is made about the publication of the paper, I am told that the proceedings are in the press. Let it be hoped that this crucial publication is out soon so that all of those interested in the subject may have a detailed picture of the issue.


  4. Here is the story from another source...


    BBC News


    Wednesday, 16 January, 2002, 13:14 GMT

    Indian civilisation '9,000 years old'



    By Rajyasri Rao in Delhi

    Marine scientists in India say an archaeological site off India's western coast may be up to 9,000 years old.


    The revelation comes about 8 months after acoustic images from the sea-bed suggested the presence of built-up structures resembling the ancient Harappan civilisation, which dates back around 4,000 years.


    The Harappan civilisation is the oldest in the subcontinent.


    Although Palaeolithic sites dating back around 20,000 years have been found on the coast of India's western state of Gujarat before, this is the first time there are indications of man-made structures as old as 9,500 years found deep beneath the sea surface.


    Search impeded


    Known as the Gulf of Cambay, the area has been subject to a great deal of archaeological interest due to its proximity to another ancient submerged site - Dwaraka - in the nearby Gulf of Kutch.


    Harappan remains have been found in India and Pakistan


    But investigations in the Cambay region have been made more difficult by strong tidal currents running at around two to three metres per second.


    They impede any sustained underwater studies.


    Marine scientists led by the Madras-based National Institute of Ocean Technology said they got around this problem by taking acoustic images off the sea-bed and using dredging equipment to extract artefacts.


    A second round of investigations was conducted about three months ago.


    'Glorious past'


    The Indian Minister for Ocean Technology, Murli Manohar Joshi, told journalists the images indicated not only symmetrical man-made structures but also a paleo-river, running for around nine kilometres, on whose banks all the artefacts were discovered.


    Experts say submerged pottery may offer a clue


    Carbon dating carried out on one of these artefacts - a block of wood bearing the signs of deep fissures - suggested it had been around since about 7,595 BC.


    Mr Joshi said his ministry planned to set up a multi-disciplinary group to look into what this discovery really meant and what relation it might have to other ancient sites in the area.


    Critics say the minister, who has been in the eye of a storm recently for attempts to Hinduise school history textbooks, may well be presenting these archaeological discoveries as proof of India's glorious and ancient past.


    But others say only further scientific studies can tell whether such a claim can be made at all.



  5. A retrospective on the past 58 years

    With love to George, and my Global Family of Beatle People /12.08.01

    By Louise Harrison



    (We're honored to print this letter from Louise Harrison. Please credit Abbeyrd's Beatles Page if posted elsewhere.)



    George Harrison's sister, Louise Harrison (Photo by Alan Levenson.)

    Dec. 8, 2001


    Some fifty eight years ago when I was eleven, my Mom let me hold my new eight hour old, baby brother in my arms. I love all three brothers very much, but I suppose because I had now reached the mature age of eleven, I felt a greater sense of protectiveness toward George.



    The four of us grew up in a strong and secure, good natured family atmosphere. Mum and Dad nurtured us in a way that helped us grow into self-confident individuals with a great compassion for our fellow Earthlings. Although we were not financially rich, we never felt deprived in any way. Due to WW2 even the really rich didn't have much of anything anyway!


    George and I shared many experiences, including the excitement and fun of the early Beatle years, the search for a better understanding of our Creator, why are we here on Earth? and do we have any real purpose? George's search led him, amongst other things, to a book called "Autobiography of a Yogi" by Paramahansa Yogananda. In about 1969, George sent me a copy of the book and soon thereafter I joined the Self-Realization Fellowship which Yogananda founded in 1925 in California.


    George was delighted when I showed him my membership card and with a mischievous grin said to me (knowing some of the goof-ups I had made in my life), "Maybe now you will become my divine sister!" With an equally mischievous grin I replied, "I'd like to try, but it won't come easy." His reply: "Nothing worthwhile ever does!"


    During the Bangla Desh era, we spent much time together and both learned you cannot perform a spontaneous good deed, you have to have a (501) C-3 first!


    Another significant experience we shared was the deaths about seven years apart, of both of our loving, strong and good-humored parents.


    During the early Beatle days, Mum and Dad had eagerly embraced their growing global family of Beatle people, replying to thousands of letters, making personal appearances at many charitable events, often to raise money for orphans. They encouraged me to reach out also, noting it was logistically impossible for the Boys themselves to greet their fans individually, but that we, as 'the non famous" Harrison's could much more easily greet people acknowledge their support and return their love. Once Mum and Dad passed, having inherited their love for people, I became the unofficial Mum to the family of Beatle People. I have always seen this role as 1) a great responsibility, and 2) a great privilege. Not many people get the opportunity to foster love where ever they go!


    Many of the Beatle People I met and hugged, throughout the years, are now my real and loving friends. (Thanks for your love and support at this time.)


    I learned from SRF, if you truly believe the Creator is within you: a) You are connected with love to all who also contain that spirit. b) You can never think any thought, or perform any act 'behind God's back' and c) Your spirit cannot be adversely affected by the happenings in this finite and imperfect world. Living with those credos one can only think and act with total purity of purpose. In late 1992, I formed a non-profit environmental organization, called Drop-In! It was a continuation of the spirit of many of the "messages" embodied in the Beatle phenomenon. We also included some of the things I had learned from the SRF.


    Initially I explained the general ideas of Drop-In to George and invited him to be on the Board, but he said to me, "No Lou, this is your mission or dharma. This is the task you have to do. Besides, it seems you have tapped into a "Power" greater than any help I can give. "


    Although he did not join the Board, he DID offer to let me use his song "Save the World" as a musical backdrop to the 170 public service announcements called Good EarthKeeping Tips, which I researched, wrote and broadcast on 9,200 radio stations during 1993 and 1994.


    An event occurred in the mid 90's which at first, though it was being touted as 'historical' I found, with Monty Python humor, to be rather "hysterical." The house, which George visited in 1963 -- the first visit of a Beatle to the United States -- was to be torn down to make a parking lot. Many people wanted to save the house. In answer to much prodding I agreed to help. To cut a long story short, the house was saved, a group of neighbors bought the house, then, owning a house they didn't need, wondered what to do with it! The solution was to make it into a Bed & Breakfast.


    A historical marker will be issued in 2013, 50 years after George's visit. Many historical markers seem to commemorate a situation where "one bunch of humans slaughtered another bunch of humans." I, with a touch of whimsy, thought, "Maybe we are evolving to a higher state of consciousness if, instead of death and destruction, we now think it worth while to commemorate a kind and decent young man who gave only love, wonderful music and kindness to the world."


    I expected George might be a bit embarrassed by all this, but knowing him to be the man who made such efforts for the people of Bangla Desh, I didn't think he would be too upset if the little, four bedroom B & B with the "slight Beatle connection" helped, in a tiny way, the nice friendly people he had known in 1963 . They are so proud of him and the area is not as thriving as it was in 1963, because most of coal mines are now closed. I tried to help the owners a bit, (they have done such a wonderful job) by getting involved in some publicity to promote the B & B.


    A few weeks ago I was in Toronto on business when I learned that my brother was in Staten Island. I decided to take the long way home to Illinois via New York and stop to see him. We had a lovely visit, sharing a few old family jokes and were able to look into each other's eyes with love, just as we had 58 years ago when first we met. He will, of course, live happily ever after, with his Sweet Lord.



    I still have to accomplish my mission here on Earth.



    Foot-Note, or should I say Leg-End? (That's just an album plug) Four days after my brother's passing, I was informed that a minor segment of the press was involved in some Lou-bashing. This was NOT the best time to hear such news, but I know for sure, this now 70-year-old, single lady has not been involved in any scandal, so I am not concerned. The many thousands of people who know me will ignore any negativity, and as George once sang "Gossip, gossip, the Devil's radio!'

    Having now seen the reports, all I can say is this: The house which supposedly caused a 40- or 11-year rift, depending on which report you read, only became a B & B in 1996! I personally do not, and never have, owned such a venture. Case closed.



    So: Let it be, and as George said, All things must pass, even Gossip!


    (Boy, those Beatles knew how to come up with great song titles, didn't they!)


    Till next time, Cheerio! P.S., I love you. Please plant a tree!


    Louise Harrison

    Southern Illinois, USA

    December 9th 2001.

  6. Ananova :


    Charity for children and poor to get George Harrison single profits


    Profits from a tribute single to the late George Harrison will go towards a long-standing charitable body he established.


    His solo number one My Sweet Lord is being re-released later this month following the former Beatles star's death from cancer in November.


    Record label bosses at Parlophone say the proceeds will go to the Material World Charitable Foundation, which supports those working with children and the poor.


    Harrison's charity was set-up around the time of his 1973 solo album Living In The Material World. Royalties from nine of the 11 songs from the LP went to the foundation.


    The record company says the release is "due to public demand". The single will also include a remix of My Sweet Lord which he did for the reissue in 2000 of his critically acclaimed album All Things Must Pass.


    My Sweet Lord was originally released 31 years ago in January 1971 and became the first solo post-Beatles number one for any of the group. It topped the charts for five weeks, but prompted a court case because of similarities between the and The Chiffons' hit He's So Fine.


    The re-released single features new artwork with an original photograph taken by Harrison.


    Tributes were paid around the world after the death of the musician.


    Story filed: 18:36 Wednesday 2nd January 2002


  7. Thursday January 3, 05:10 PM


    India says Kashmir rebels threaten to blow up Taj Mahal

    Security around the 17th century marble monument had been tightened following an e-mail threat from the Lashkar-e-Taiba, a senior government official in the northern state of Uttar Pradesh where the Taj is located told Reuters.



    "They have threatened to blow up the Taj Mahal, some other monuments and important government buildings in Lucknow," the official, who did not want to be identified, said.


    Lucknow is the capital of Uttar Pradesh.


    "We have enhanced security in and around the Taj Mahal which was mentioned among Lashkar-e-Taiba's main targets in the e-mail sent to the chief minister," the official said.


    The Taj Mahal, India's monument to love in the northern city of Agra, is a huge draw for tourists from across the world.


    India has blamed the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Mohammad groups for the December 13 attack on its parliament in which 14 people, including five attackers, died. Both groups have denied involvement in the attacks.


    The official said Lashkar had also threatened to blow up a makeshift temple built at a disputed site in the ancient Indian town of Ayodhya where a 16th century mosque once stood.


    Hindu zealots tore down the Babri mosque in December 1992, triggering widespread religious riots in which some 3,000 people were killed. The site is sacred to both Hindus and Muslims.


    Security had already been tightened in and around the Ayodhya temple after a group of Hindu hardliners barged into the heavily-guarded complex in October.


  8. Who is the Woman yonder who lights the field of battle?

    Darker Her body gleams even than the darkest storm-cloud,

    And from Her teeth there flash the lightning's blinding flames!

    Disheveled Her hair is flying behind as She rushes about,

    Undaunted in this war between the gods and the demons.

    Laughing Her terrible laugh, She slays the fleeing asuras,

    And with Her dazzling flashes She bares the horror of war.


    How beautiful on Her brow the drops of moisture appear!

    About Her dense black hair the bees are buzzing in swarms;

    The moon has veiled its face, beholding this Sea of Beauty.

    Tell me, who can She be, this Sorceress? Wonder of wonders!

    Siva Himself, like a corpse, lies vanquished at Her feet.

    Kamalakanta has guessed who She is, with the elephant's gait;

    She is none other than Kali, Mother of all the worlds.



    from Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna

  9. The Divine Mother


    Her Birth


    The ancient Hindu text the Chandi tells the story of how the Divine Mother Goddess was born to slay the demons who were threatening the Gods themselves. When the evil demon king Mahishasura declared himself to be the Ruler of the Universe, the blasphemy so enraged the Gods that a powerful beam of light began to issue forth from the forehead ("third eye") of each of them. When the blinding beams of Vishnu, Shiva, Brahma, Indra, Yama, Agni, and all the other Gods met at one blazing point, the energy came to life in the form of a Goddess. Thus, she is considered Shakti, the creative power of the Divine.

    The Divine Mother


    Each of the Gods gave Her His most powerful weapon: Shiva's Trident, Vishnu's Discus, Indra's Thunderbolt. Roaring fiercely, Kali single-handedly battled Mahishasura and his entire army of powerful, magical, crafty demons. She devoured, slashed, tore, and crushed every one. But even after the demons were slain, Kali's battle frenzy raged on. She continued to dance wildly, slashing and ripping at the dead demons, dancing from corpse to corpse, shaking the foundations of the universe itself. The Gods realized they had to stop Her or the universe would be destroyed.


    So Shiva, Her Husband, stepped forward. He lay down among the corpses on the battlefield, motionless. As Kali continued her dance of death, She suddenly realized that She was dancing on top of a live body--and it was that of Her Husband! Overcome with shame at the unthinkable disrespect She was showing by touching Her Husband with Her feet, She bit Her tongue and stopped Her dance.


    Her Many Forms


    Kali is usually considered to be an aspect of Parvati, the wife of Shiva. (Parvati is also sometimes known as Uma.) Another aspect of Parvati is Durga, the ten-armed demon-slaying goddess celebrated in September-October during Durga Puja, the largest religious festival in Bengal.


    Ma Kali, as devotees affectionately call her ("Mother Kali") is known to take on many different forms or moods, some related to particular places, miracles, or incidents (comparable to the many manifestations of the Blessed Virgin Mary: Our Lady of Sorrows, Our Lady of the Springs, Our Lady of Perpetual Help, Our Lady of Lourdes, etc.). Kali's forms range from the benign protectress to the terrifying demon-slayer. Even robbers who waited in the forests of Bengal to ambush travelers used to worship their very own form of Kali: Dakait Kali.


    Her Symbolism


    In spite of the variety of forms She takes, Kali can always be recognized by certain characteristics. Her long hair flies about wildly (unlike the meticulously plaited hair of a modest Hindu woman), indicating Her infinite freedom. She is usually depicted standing on the prone body of Shiva, with Her tongue out. In contrast to Shiva's pure white complexion (He is smeared with ashes in the tradition of a sannyasin), Kali is the deep black of a limitless Void that has the power to swallow up everything. Her name comes from the Sanskrit word kala, "time"; she is the power of time, which devours all.


    She has three eyes and four arms. Her upper right hand makes a gesture meaning "fear not," while the lower right hand's gesture promises the granting of boons to Her devotees. Her left hands hold a bloody sword and a freshly severed human head. Thus She combines the compassionate and the terrible aspects of the Divine. Yet even in Her terrible aspect She is looking out for the good of Her devotees--indeed of all humanity: The head She has severed represents the ego, the biggest obstacle to our realization of God.


    She wears nothing but a skirt and a garland--but the skirt is made of human arms, the garland of skulls. Again, however, these symbols transcend the obvious macabre associations with Her destructive nature. The arms represent work or action, also known as Karma: All work belongs to Her and should be dedicated to Her. The fifty skulls in the garland represent the fifty letters of the Sanskrit alphabet, the root of all knowledge, indeed of creation itself.



    from Adyapeath website






    [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 01-01-2002).]

  10. Originally posted by stonehearted:

    Although I'm not happy to give shvu any ammo, I want to point out that there were no Islamic countries in Jesus' time because there was no Islam.


    Duhhh.............no kiddin!


    I referred to them as Islamic countries because that is what they are called today...


    Thanks for the observation however Mr. Stone!


    And thank you shvu for the clarification!


    ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-

    ¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

    ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji Posted Image

    -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*




    [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 12-31-2001).]

  11. Originally posted by Avinash:

    Dear Jijaji,

    When some historians do studies (archaeological and others) to conclude that most of stories written in Ramayana, Mahabharata and Puranas are either completely wrong or grossly exaggerated, then they are blamed to be having some ulterior motive. It is said that we should give more importance to what is written in these scriptures over what is told by these ‘western historians’. Don’t you think that, by applying the same logic, if we want to know about Jesus, then we should give more importance to what is written in Bible over what is told by the Islamic scholars?


    As you have pointed out, some of Islamic historians consider Jesus as a mortal prophet. They believe that he was never underwent crucifixion. So what? If you tell them that Krishna was God, they will immediately call you a liar. According to them, God does not come on Earth. Most of them consider stories related to Krishna as complete lies. There is very little probability that you will find some Muslim who can consider Krishna as a prophet. But they do not agree that He was God. Will you agree with them?

    The only resaon there is some consideration of these Islamic scholars is that when Jesus went to India he passed through many Islamic countries before he made his way to India. It has nothing to do with their theistic conclusions at all. It's just that his passing through those countries have been recorded by them centuries ago.

    I do not give a rat's ass about what they say about Sanatan Dharma!





  12. Originally posted by shvu:

    Bless you, again.


    Being a religious person, you should not use such language. You are tarring the name of the Gaudiyas. You will set a bad example to youngsters, who are not as 'grown up' as you are.




    Oh sure such bad bad language.."shit"

    are you some moralist?


    how horrid he said "bite my ass"


    Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image


    who you kiddin you fake..




  13. quote:

    The problem with you is, you want to believe. Some Islamic guy puts up a web page saying Jesus was never crucified and you readily believe that [i wonder if you even read it in full? ]. Now I can say "Start using your head", but I won't



    That's is bull....I posted that material because it was relating to the discussion, I never said I belive all of it.

    Although I do think there is good evidence to suggest Jesus spent some time in India.




  14. Originally posted by shvu:



    Ths time I have to say,


    Start using your head. You will be amazed at the results.


    What has miracles got to do with Gaudiyas? Think before you talk. Maybe you have to grow down a little bit Posted Image.And cool off your temper, some.



    Good luck!



    [This message has been edited by shvu (edited 12-30-2001).]

    Bite my ass....you cheap dime a dozen pretendica scholar!


    you come back after weeks of being away and just come in swinging!! and you have the nerve to say I'm angry.....go look in the mirror pal.






  15. Originally posted by shvu:



    Perhaps it is.


    As an ununsually rare person, you have dedicated your life to Krishna, giving up everything else and are a holy person who has been living in mystical and spiritual India for sometime now. During these years, you have travelled around in India, visited religious places and met many other holy people.


    Have you seen a single miracle, till date?





    I can't answer for jnds, but for myself I can say that I have...


    nothing to do with ashes or such quackery...





  16. Dying held no terrors for George. He said he was going on somewhere else

    By Hugh Davies, Entertainment Correspondent

    (Filed: 01/12/2001)



    FOREVER remembered for his experimental riffs and for songs such as Here Comes the Sun and My Sweet Lord, George Harrison was the gentle but dark-humoured Beatle who embraced death with stoicism but wanted desperately to live.


    The Fab Four pose with their early silver discs in 1963

    Michael Palin, his old friend from the film world, recalled his last night with the musician at his home in Henley-on-Thames. "We ended up, sitting together for three hours listening to the music of Hoagie Carmichael. He played tape after tape.


    "Death held no terrors for George at all. He'd got all that worked out. He had a spirituality. He said that he was going on somewhere else. He didn't want people to grieve and feel this was the end." But even as he was dying, Harrison retained a paranoia for the safety of his family, fuelled by his stabbing by an intruder two years ago.


    When surgeons at the University of California Los Angeles Medical Centre told him that chemotherapy was no longer worth the pain, he took Olivia, his Mexican wife, and son Dhani to the fortress-like West Los Angeles home of Gavin de Becker, one of America's most prominent security consultants to rock and film stars.


    De Becker developed a close friendship with Harrison in the aftermath of the case of the celebrity stalker Ralph Nau who, a decade ago, pursued Olivia Newton John and Cher. Harrison moved behind de Becker's gates last week, after his final days started to mirror the last months of Steve McQueen, another enigmatic icon with cancer.


    McQueen, portrayed two decades ago as an anguished actor frantic for a cure, ended up with a ju-ju man giving him alternative medicine in Mexico. Harrison, invisible as usual to the media, tried experimental radiosurgery at New York's Staten Island University Hospital after stints at a Swiss hospital and the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.


    Then, curiously, he ignored the nearby chemotherapy facility at the renowned Memorial Sloane-Kettering facility in Manhattan, where the West Side Story composer Leonard Bernstein was treated as an ex-smoker, to have one last attempt at prolonging his life on the West Coast.


    Noted for gallows humour, he found time to credit to "RIP Ltd 2001" his last composition, Small World, Big Friends, which he wrote with his son, recording it with Jools Holland, former keyboard player with Squeeze, in Switzerland.


    Harrison, like Yul Brynner before him, never flinched from blaming his cancer on smoking. Jimmy Tarbuck, the comedian, recalled Harrison as rarely being without a cigarette. "He used to have it fixed to the top fret of his guitar, burning away, as he played."


    Two weeks ago, as a tumour on Harrison's brain was being treated in New York by Dr Gil Lederman, who used exceptionally high doses of radiation in what other doctors would call a hopeless case, Sir Paul McCartney spent six hours with him.


    Sir Paul, 59, who met Harrison on the bus to their Liverpool school, said he wept during their last talk. Both have had their differences, amid numerous slights on Harrison's talents.


    Always in awe of those such as Ry Cooder, whom he called "real" musicians, Harrison was said to have been stung by McCartney recalling a stranger telling him during a Jimi Hendrix concert: "You ought to get a bloke like that in your band, mate."


    Harrison was asked why, when in Los Angeles, he hadn't attended a concert by McCartney's Wings. He replied: "The Beatles are gone. Why should I watch one now?" However, in the early days, he had been eager to impress McCartney.


    Lennon and McCartney watched him on stage at a youth club. Harrison, who learned his chords from Bert Weedon's book Play In A Day, stood out with his hard-learned solo of Bill Justice's Raunchy.


    He also played Duane Eddy's Rebel Rouser and so became a regular lead guitarist with The Quarrymen. The band became Johnny and the Moondogs in 1959, briefly, the Silver Beetles and then the Beatles in 1960.


    Much has been made of the later creative tension between them. There was also the fact that Harrison seemed to prefer the company of Eric Clapton. He originally warmed to the guitarist musically after Clapton wrote in Disc and Music Echo in praise of his work on the album Revolver.


    Harrison then raised Lennon's eyebrows by bringing Clapton to a Beatles recording session and insisting on a duet. There was tension between the two when Lennon died, as well as antagonism between McCartney and Yoko Ono, Lennon's widow.


    But that was long ago. Yesterday Sir Paul called Harrison "my baby brother". He said that he spoke to Harrison's wife "about the moment" that Harrison died. "I understand that he went peacefully - it was a very peaceful golden moment."


    Recalling their recent meeting, he said: "He was full of fun, a brave lad. I always hoped some miracle would happen. I am very, very sad." Ringo Starr, 61, whose daughter Lee Starkey is undergoing treatment for a brain tumour, also visited Harrison in hospital.


    Speaking in Vancouver, Starr said: "George was a best friend of mine. Barbara, my wife, and I will miss him for his sense of love, music and laughter." Ono said Harrison brought "magic" to the lives of those who knew him. "Thank you George, it was grand knowing you."


    Gerry Marsden, of Ferry Cross The Mersey fame, recalled becoming close to Harrison when their bands played in Hamburg. He said: "A great musician gone to heaven. George was just a nice guy and a gentleman. At least through his death he will have been released from all the pain he has been going through."


    Cilla Black, also from the Brian Epstein stable, spoke of their camaraderie on the road after they met at the Cavern club. "I am so sad." Her husband, Bobby Willis, died from cancer in 1999. Michael Palin worked with Harrison on Handmade Films.


    He said: "He actually mortgaged his house in Henley to put the money down. George had sent a note to the Monty Python team on the very first night of recording in 1969, saying how much he enjoyed us. From then on, a friendship developed, based on his love of humour and my amazement at his music.


    "He enabled us to make The Life of Brian in 1978. My film, The Missionary, Alan Bennet's first and only film, Private Function, Time Bandits, The Long Good Friday, Mona Lisa, all wouldn't have happened without George's enthusiasm and inspiration.


    "Quite apart from his music, he was an enormous influence to the British film industry." Palin recalled him coming on the set in The Life of Brian. "He played a man who wanted to give his money away, and the crowd wouldn't listen to him. He had a great sense of humour. Some of the best laughs I've had have been with George."


    Palin dismissed the notion of Harrison being "the quiet Beatle". "When I was with him, he never stopped talking, especially about his enthusiasms." These included gardening and George Formby.


    His last "live" performance, before becoming a recluse, was with his son on ukelele in Blackpool singing I'm Leaning On A Lamppost at a George Formby Society gig. Harrison's first wife, Patti Boyd, said at her home in Kensington: "I'm just so sad. I loved him so much."


    Sir George Martin was perhaps closest to Harrison in the early Beatles days as their record producer at the Abbey Road EMI studios. "John and Paul used to collaborate on songs, but of course George didn't have anyone to work with.


    At our first meeting in 1962 when I took them into the studio I tried to work out what kind of sound I was supposed to be dealing with. "I did a rough tape and asked them to listen to it. I said, 'Have a listen to this and tell me what you don't like about it.'


    "George said, 'I don't like your tie.' That was typical of his sense of humour. I think he would have always have preferred to have been anonymous. He always tried to keep a low profile."


    The producer said he always insisted on top-quality work and "George accepted that". He said: "George worked at it - and of course it came through wonderfully. In fact, when the Beatles broke up he became the strongest one.


    He sold millions of his triple album All Things Must Pass - and he wrote some fantastic songs, of which Something is my favourite." Sir George was one of the last of Harrison's old friends to visit him before he left for America.


    He said: "He was enormously optimistic - and still fighting all the way. But when you have the disease as far as he did, it is a lone battle and a long one. He never really gave up, and worried too much about what was going to happen."


  17. George Harrison to be knighted: report


    From AFP



    FORMER Beatle George Harrison, who died last month, is to be knighted posthumously by Britain's Queen Elizabeth, according to a report.


    The paper said his death on November 29 had come too late for him to be added to the queen's traditional New Year honours list due to be published this week, and would instead feature on her birthday honours list in June.


    The report quoted a senior government source as confirming the knighthood, which if true, would be the first to be awarded posthumously.


    In 1965, Harrison and the other Beatles were each awarded the MBE, a middle-ranking honour.


    The guitarist, singer, songwriter and recluse died aged 58 in Los Angeles after a long battle against cancer.


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