Vedesu

Sometimes you have to have guts to cut your losses and move on. Pretending that "nothing happened here" is neither honest nor useful.

Perhaps so. But how does this relate to the jiva fall debate? I'm not clear as to what it is that you're proposing. If you're suggesting that the debate should stop altogether, that would of course be nice. But as you alluded to, this isn't going to happen anytime soon. So, what is your proposal for dealing with Drutakarma's sleeper-vada theories which have been spreading all over the net the past few months. Would you prefer that they go unchallenged?

It just depends on one's angle of vision. We can say that the contradictions are "apparent" because they can be harmonized or synthesized. Another might say that because the contradictions are "apparent" only, then in a sense they do not exist.

That's where I felt Balavidya prabhu was coming from, not that he lacked courage or was being dishonest. He probably genuinely feels that the conclusions (regarding jiva-tattva) are quite clear, at least to him, that any apparent contradictions have been fully resolved in his heart of hearts. And he does make some valid points about prema, that it cannot be defeated by envy, otherwise that would make envy superiour.

Perhaps he's reached a crossroads where all he sees are devotees arguing back and forth non-stop, with seemingly no end in sight, and he simply wants to present Srila Prabhupada's conclusions on the issue as presented in his books, which in the final analysis are supposed to be the ultimate authority. Otherwise the debate just continues perpetually.

It's an interesting approach, I feel, and I'm curious to see how it plays out.

And the same Sam who loathes the GBC henchmen, but apparently has a few of his own (Wyspery, Mahavidya, et al.)

Aw c'mon Sammy boy. You can do better than that.

 

Sampradaya Sun Sam, Editor in Chief!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh! That Sam. Yikes! The same Sam who grants George A. Smith carte blanche to spew his venom. For those unaware, George A. Smith is none other than Wsypery aka Janus, (net.nut as once described by gHari prabhu) who regularly blasphemed Srila Prabhupada and Lord Krsna on the old VNN forums and had numerous posts deleted by the moderator as a result. The same G.A.S whom Sam recently instructed to reply to Sita-Pati:

Perhaps George, who is very knowledgeable on the philosohy, will be so kind as to take him to task on this front.

in Rocana's editorial dated Jan. 6th. The same Sam who has such a bizarre editorial policy that even our own Babhru prabhu brought it into question in a reply to Janmastami das a couple of weeks ago; a policy that allows those with similar views with Sam to basically run off anyone who differs philosophically (Bhagavata prabhu, Loka Krsna prabhu, Brahma das prabhu, Tripurari Maharaja, and others.)

Okay, got it! The same Sam who says "If you don't like it, go start your own website!!!"

Hear ya loud and clear Sam. But say it ain't so, Joe. Say it ain't so!

 

Reintarnation!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bhakta Sam lives in Yosemite National Park. He lives in a van parked down by the river. That river is known as Viraja. It's a lovely place:

And there you have it.

It appears this way to you in your dream.

 

When you wake up from your dream of thinking you have understood this philosophy, you will wake up to the eternal reality that you are conditioned in this material world and have been here anadi. Unfortunately the rest of us are here imprisoned in this particular jail cell with you, and this dreamy philosophy makes me oh so tired. Won't you give a guy a break? Get some sleep pal. yawn. zzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzz

Now that was funny!!!

I'm no Guruvani, a shastra-meister with instant verse, chapter, and date recall, but I do know that Srila Prabhupada stated that the guru and his teachings (contained in his books) are non-different.

As Beggar was stating earlier, there are gradations. The Holy Name is considered non-different than Krsna. At the same time, the Holy Name is considered more merciful than Krsna Himself. Srila Prabhupada's purports are indeed profound and can provide immense benefit. Yet, if one actually experiences this benefit, it is only natural that he will want to meet the author himself. "From him, ecstactic prema emanates." The key is in understanding that there are degrees, gradations. We are personalists, so it is only natural that we should gradually aspire to personally render service to the Sadhus, not from afar, but up close and personal, touching their lotus feet. That's why we have arca vigraha, to learn how to be personal in all respects. That's why Guru appears in person, not just mailing out books from overseas and expecting us to become "personalists" from reading his books. As Srila Sridhara stated, Vrindavan is the Land of Gurus. Das dasanudas. We are advised to learn to become the servant of the servant of the servant. There is tremendous benefit from reading the Bhaktivedanta purports, no doubt, (even if some do not accept that the Battle of Kuruksetra actually took place. Such persons are atheists in my mind, pretending to be authorities on Srila Prabhupada's message.) Yet, even more benefit is to be obtained if we are fortunate enough (which I am not, regrettably,) to associate and personally serve the Sadhus and pure devotees. Just my humble opinion. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Both vapuh and vani have their value.

As Hoss Cartwright would have said: "Dad-burnit Pa, this is what you call real FUN!!!

Now, I don't know if Hoss was a Vishnu bhakta or not, although he seemed to have a really big heart, full of compassion. Maybe he would have been the first to have said "Hayagriva" when the H's began. I don't know. Does anyone here really know for sure? I ask you. can you be sure?

All I know is.... this is a great thread and before it gets lost in the mix, I'm going to bump it right back up to the top. Now... how long it stays there, I do not know. But I can say with at least 73.8% honesty, that I did my part to help keep this thread poppin, as they say. Or as Dickie V would say: dipsy-do, dunk-a-roo!!!

Okay, I've been reading some of the stories about how devotees joined Iskcon and it's been a fairly common theme, at least for the early Prabhupada disciples, that many had taken or experimented with LSD prior to their becoming devotees. I've never taken it myself, (not that I was transcendental to it, just too scared after hearing about "bad trips"), so I was curious if the special effects were similar to this:

internet trick

You can do this for any website, but it works best for one with images and photos. Just copy and paste the code from the above site into your address bar and hit enter, then scroll up near the top of the page. Try it with the thread below, or any website for that matter. 100% safe.

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/445349-how-did-you-discover-krishna.html

Hitting refresh will make the special effects stop.

Just a quick bumpety-bump. Let's keep this thing a-moving!

I saw the Nectar of Devotion by Srila Prabhupada and within one minute I knew the whole direction of my life had been discovered in that book.

Huh, dear step-father? Remember, I was content to let you have your "smug" victory on the internet and leave it at that. You just had to come rub my face in it up at the Ashram last night as I was trying to honor a little prasadam, didn't you? Gokara!!!!

Last night? The post you are replying to was made 5 days ago. Really, you seem to be on some sort of sectarian campaign here, Murali. First, you object (at least its seems that you did) to those who appreciate and quote Srila Sridhara Maharaja's words on this forum who aren't official members of your sanga:

..but certainly, those with the *greatest* appreciation for Srila Sridhar Maharaja do. The rest are honey-bees, dabblers, or spiritual prostitutes (wear the description that fits best).

Then you ask:

I wasn't quoting Gurudev, anyways, regarding "being a fanatic for guru". Have you ever heard of him saying such a thing?

To which Beggar replied that he had, in person. And he qualified what he heard, suggesting that it could be misinterpreted by neophyte (hint: sectarian) followers, and that history has proven him right. IMHO, you have done nothing to disprove this notion.

One would think that you would be overjoyed that Beggar has such great appreciation for Srila Sridhara Maharaja, and even enough appreciation to come visit your Gurudeva and hear from him personally. Yet your attitude here seems to indicate that he must be a "card-carrying member", otherwise, he's a "spiritual prostitute." What a shame. You're doing nothing to break down the sectarian walls which have divided and plagued the various Gaudiya missions for decades.

I have read and appreciated many of Srila Sridhara Maharaja's books over the years and his mood always struck me as one of being humble and harmonizing. But perhaps you have a different perspective, it would seem.

Oh no! not the guru sell. Spare me that at least.

No wonder you have lost all taste. I had you on my ignore list until just a few minutes ago, (for good reason), as I wanted to see what your attitude was in reply to all the kind Vaishnavas trying to offer some inspiration. Your reply to the previous post took only 3 minutes. Did you even bother to read that post? It doesn't appear that you did. Just another swipe.

Instead of blaming the process or the words of the Sadhus, why not look within? Is it possible that the fault is with you, not the process? Atma-niksepa, deep soul-searching, is highly recommended from time to time. Your attitude towards Vaishnavas is extremely negative. You impute ill motives where there are none. At least offer respects from a distance. Otherwise, the mad elephant offense will dry up your devotional creeper, as it appears it already has.

At the very least, read the posts carefully, digest them, deliberate, reflect, and then after some pensive introspection, offer your reply. But this "instant sarcastic rebuttal" thing you've got going is not going to help you one iota.

Personally, I had some ideas I wanted to share with you that *may* have been of some use to you during this difficult time, but if you're going to be snotty while the devotees are trying to help and encourage you, then there's not much I can say.

PS: After posting this, I see that the post I was replying to was deleted and then an edited version added.

And anyway, isn't chanting a part of raganuga bhakti? If we were on the platform of raganuga bhakti, I would think we would want to chant MORE than 16 rounds, chanting would be almost impossible to stop.

Yes indeed. See post 8 above. When one has developed ruci, a genuine taste, then it will be so very natural to chant 64 rounds a day, or more. And one will weep while chanting. Raganuga doesn't mean one stops chanting his/her rounds or following the rules and regulations, it just means that all these things become delicious, extremely tasteful.

Another part of sādhana-bhakti is called rāgānugā. Rāgānugā refers to the point at which, by following the regulative principles, one becomes a little more attached to Krsna, and executes devotional service out of natural love.

 

So if we are not advanced (like me) then to get to raganuga bhakti we will have to follow vaidhi bhakti first, isn't it?

Yes, this is true. However, it depends upon the depth of our mood. One person may diligently chant 16 rounds and follow the 4 regulative principles for 30 or 40 years without developing much of a taste (due to the fact that bhakti is not a mechanical process) while for another person that taste may come fairly quickly. One of the nine processes of bhakti (along with sravanam kirtanam, vishno smaranam, etc.) is vandanam, offering prayers to the Lord with great feeling. Causeless mercy descends according to our hankering and greed to receive it. In that regard, here is another excerpt from the 9th Chapter of Nectar of Devotion:

In the same Nārada-pañcarātra, there is another expression of submission, wherein the devotee says, "My dear Lord, O lotus-eyed one, when will that day come when on the bank of the Yamunā I shall become just like a madman and continue to chant Your holy name while incessant tears flow from my eyes?" This is another perfectional stage. Lord Caitanya also desired that "a moment will appear unto me as twelve years of time, and the whole world will appear to me as vacant on account of not seeing You, my dear Lord." One should feelingly pray and become eager to render his particular type of service to the Lord. This is the teaching of all great devotees, especially Lord Caitanya.

 

In other words, one should learn how to cry for the Lord. One should learn this small technique, and he should be very eager and actually cry to become engaged in some particular type of service. This is called laulyam, and such tears are the price for the highest perfection. If one develops this laulyam, or excessive eagerness for meeting and serving the Lord in a particular way, that is the price to enter into the kingdom of God. Otherwise, there is no material calculation for the value of the ticket by which one can enter the kingdom of God. The only price for such entrance is this laulyam lālasāmayī, or desire and great eagerness.

Thank you Vedesu! Does the above quote refer to raganuga bhakti or vaidhi bhakti? I assume it refers to raganuga bhakti. Am I correct?

 

Thank you.

 

Her Servant and yours.

Technically, the prayer quoted above from The Nectar of Devotion is an example of submission to Krsna by very feelingly offering prayers. But the analogy within the prayer--- the spontaneous attraction and devotion which the devotee is aspiring for, is an example of raganuga bhakti. So, yes, you are correct. I have always found this prayer to be one of the simplest examples given by Srila Prabhupada for understanding raganuga.

Thank you Baba for your nice reply. Even so, for myself (and perhaps cbrahma), the distinctions between raganuga and vaidhi bhakti are too advanced for me.

 

Since I can only perform devotional service in some very small and limited amounts, I very much appreciated your comments about the "intention behind the act .. if done out of love"

Although I certainly have zero experience or realization in these matters, there is a wonderful analogy which may help clarify the unique distinction of raganuga bhakti:

In the Padma Purāṇa there is a statement of submission in feeling by devotees praying to the Lord: "My Lord, I know that young girls have natural affection for young boys, and that young boys have natural affection for young girls. I am praying at Your lotus feet that my mind may become attracted unto You in the same spontaneous way." The example is very appropriate. When a young boy or girl sees a member of the opposite sex there is a natural attraction, without the need for any introduction. Without any training there is a natural attraction due to the sex impulse. This is a material example, but the devotee is praying that he may develop a similar spontaneous attachment for the Supreme Lord, free from any desire for profit and without any other cause. This natural attraction for the Lord is the perfectional stage of self-realization.

Thanks for the Sanskrit lesson.

 

My main objection is that you seem to be unwilling or too lazy to offer links to the sources of your citations. Is it really too much to ask for you to provide such links?

Becoming just a tad strident it appears. I haven't seen you ask for links, only make snipes, insults, and sarcastic remarks that he hasn't provided them.

Why not politely ask? Let's aspire to be a bit more Vaisnava-like in these discussions if we may.

Besides, there are many persons who, for whatever reason, feel more comfortable approaching Divinity from the "impersonal" side. If they have some sincerity and devotion, then will they not eventually come to realize the Sweetness of the Supreme Personality?

 

If we are smug and dismissive of the "impersonalists", doesn't that make us envious offenders?

Interesting points, Murali prabhu. Probably most of us were infected with impersonalism to varying degrees before we came into contact with Krsna Consciousness. Srila Prabhupada's pranam mantra was composed by your own Gurudeva, I believe, in which it is stated "nirvisesa sunyavadi pascatya desa tarine" which means "delivering the Western countries which are filled with impersonalism and voidism." I recall during my initial studies into the Eastern paths that the phrase "cosmic consciousness" was fairly popular. The hippies at that time would speak in terms of "expanding your consciousness" while taking mind-altering drugs. So, in retrospect, Srila Prabhupada's usage of the phrase "Krsna Consciousness" was brilliant, IMHO, whether or not he was the original inventor of the phrase.

I've said any number of times that I see Srila Prabhupada as a general in a war taking calculated risks, knowing full well that there might be heavy losses amongst his subordinates.

 

Any perception of Srila Prabhupada's mission having been a failure is a product of our narrow, limited vision.

 

Srila Prabhupada spearheaded a wave that made "Hare Krishna" a household word and paved the way for all subsequent distributors of the Holy Name.

 

As the first wave subsides and ebbs, another wave gains momentum to push even further inland and overflood the hearts of all.

[...] Personally I want to "experience" the association of a pure devotee both in the vapu and the vani. If we have that vapu experience especially in a serving mood then there will be so much separation when we are left only with the vani by physical separation. The guru is both the representative and representative of Krsna. How will we ever feel separation from Krsna if we can't feel separation from guru? How can we really feel separation from Sri guru if don't actually meet and serve that person in the vapu form? [...] What many don't understand is that Srila Prabhupada in some of his letters was trying assuage the pain of separation from him by his disciples. When Uddhava put forth similar teachings or arguments to the gopis, they rejected them. The gopis said something like, "we are not jnanis, we are simple village girls, so your arguments do not hold any weight with us". So the idea that guru and Krsna are everywhere held no weight with the gopis because no philosophy or siddhantic truth was strong enough to temper their separation from Krsna. Did Srila Prabhupada's "new" devotees have the background and experience in Gaudiya Vaisnavism to write back and say, "this philosophy if good but we still miss you, so much?" Do you think that this would have displeased Srila Prabhupada? But anyway like I said in an earlier post, some devotees have had relationships with Srila Prabhupada and other Vaisnavas in previous lives. But you would think that such a previous experience would drive them towards meeting a real Vaisnava in this world? But each to their own. Another point is why didn't Srila Prabhupada go around and constantly preach the glories of his guru's character and activites? And why did he travel around the world so many times to give his association? Sometimes I think that the idea of "guru" is what throws so many off. What about just the idea of Vaisnava. Do you want to meet a real Vaisnava? "Nah I'll just read about them (or their words) in books". Well okay then, if that fits your institutional concerns and saves people from ISKCON rock and roll star gurus who prey on their "disciples", I guess it's really not all that bad after all.

I just wanted acknowledge post 108 as being one of the more profound I have read in quite some time. At least as it relates to me personally. Thankyou Beggar prabhu. The entire post was excellent, and I wanted to highlight a few points that really hit home. We are told that we should cry when our Guru leaves this world. Also, that we should weep on the Disappearance Day of our Guru. Ramananda Roy told Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu that the greatest pain in this world is separation from a Vaishnava. The fact that I am not feeling this separation nor shedding tears reveals me as a pretender. My heart is like stone due to my deep-rooted material attachments. I realize you were conversing with someone else, but I wanted to let you know that your krsna-katha has not gone unappreciated.

If we originally came from the brahmajyoti then it's not really a fall down, since that is not the optimal position to begin with. in the bhramajyoti? How did we get there? Because from there fall down is inevitable.

This is yet another area where the sleepervada argument falls to pieces. If falldown from the Brahmajyoti is inevitable, which is true, then where do those entities fall to? You can't say to the material world, because you've already argued that there is no material world, that it isn't real. Another point: since there is no form or activity to speak of in the Brahmajyoti, then there's no question of sleeping. You need a body to sleep. You need senses to daydream. So, according to your theory (and that's all it is, a theory, completely unfounded based upon the criteria of Guru, Sastra, Sadhu) you are unwittingly insinuating a hypothesis wherein Brahmajyoti realization may be higher than Bhagavan realization. Basically you're proposing that "pure" souls (bazillions of them) will have nightmares which seemingly last for an eternity while living in Goloka Vrndavana, totally unprotected by Krsna's grace (despite his vow in the Bhagavada Gita) yet the souls in the Brahmajyoti do not experience these same nightmares, being that they are formless, senseless, and to boot: there is no material realm to fall down to to begin with.

Again, unwittingly, this sleepervada preaching is simply covered impersonalism, mayavada. Who in their right mind would want to go to Goloka Vrndavana if that is the realm of horrific nightmares and seemingly eternal suffering and damnation?

Srila B.R. Sridhara Maharaja, one of Srila Prabhupada’s godbrothers, respected for his deep philosophical realization, used to stress the same point, one of his followers told us. Repeatedly asked about where the living beings fell from, Srila Sridhara Maharaja grew weary of the question. “Why do you always ask about the most difficult thing to understand?” he once responded. “Why not try to understand the most easy thing?” That is: how to become Krishna conscious and go back to Godhead.

 

Pure devotees of Krishna avoid endless arguments. Such devotees know that such arguments are merely another distraction offered by maya.

Our puny minds can only understand this tattva so far, as in the final analysis it is acintya. Ultimately, our destination is what is important. Anyone who has studied Srila Sridhara Maharaja's teachings knows that as a Rupanuga maha-bhagavata Sadhu and Acarya, he taught the highest conception of personalism, that of unalloyed bhakti to the Divine Couple and Their associates. In this, he is completely in line with Srila Prabhupada and the entire Bhagavata Parampara. Those who continue to label him and his Godbrothers as mayavada are not only wallowing in ignorance, but committing offensives which are wreaking havoc upon their own devotional creepers. The "origins" issue has never been a focal point for Srila Prabhupada, Srila Sridhara Maharaja, Srila Keshava Maharaja, Srila Puri Maharaja, Srila Narayana Maharaja and others. As best I can tell, the GBC began making it an issue back in the early 80's as an integral position within their agenda to discourage Iskcon members from hearing from "outside" Sadhus.