Vedesu

Pay attention to the cheese example Or if you like, it is even more removed: cheese is not sunshine, but it is made from milk, which is made from grass, which in turn is made from sunshine.

At first I thought you were talking pig latin, but then I realized that truth is stranger than fiction. I was about to ask you to drop the vernacular, then a light bulb went off above my head. Perhaps this would all be clearer if you took this just one step further, that is to say, that cheese is not the sun planet, but it is made from milk, which comes from the cow, which eats the grass, which is made from sunshine, which emanates from the sun planet.

I also appreciate Beggar's color coding of key words and sentences, which makes it easy on the eyes. I like pretty colors, and I like pretty pictures as well. We live in the age of 2 second sound-bytes, so anything that assists in keeping the focus is good. Some might call it "pablum", but hey, I like pablum. Pablum is good.

What is the karmic penalty for that?

Before I punch that into the computer, I will need some hard data:

1) how many ants

2) what type of ants

3) how many were killed and how many are still alive in the vacuum

4) how serious a threat were the ants posing, if any

5) what measures did you take to prevent the ants from feeling invited to come there in the first place

6) what non-violent measures did you take to get them to leave before sweeping them up

7) do you feel any remorse for harming these ants

8) are you aware that this is Ekadasi

9) how many rounds did you chant today

10) 3 forms of I.D. including a government-issued photo I.D. and a utility bill with your current address and your past 2 pay stubs along with a secret question (your favorite pet, e.g.)

11) a money order for U.S. $13.20 for punching in a karmic background check

And this is just for starters.

So if you get milk products, milk, then you can prepare so many preparations full of vitamins, which will nourish your brain. Dull brain cannot understand what is spiritual knowledge. Therefore, that Mr. Bernard Shaw, he wrote a book. Perhaps you know it. You Are What You Eat. If you keep your brain dull, then how you can understand? Because without becoming very intelligent man, one cannot understand Krsna consciousness. That is stated in the Caitanya-caritamrta, krsna yei bhaje sei bada catura: "One who takes to Krsna consciousness seriously and perfectly, he must be very, very intelligent." Dull brain cannot accept it. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [bg. 7.19]. So we have to make our brain very clean. And for that purpose you require to drink not very much, at least, one pound or half-pound milk daily. That is essential. But no meat-eating. This is intelligence. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.19 Hawaii, January 15, 1974)

brahmajyoti - the spiritual effulgence emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord; the all-pervading, indistinct feature of the Absolute.

 

mahat-tattva - the unmanifest aggregate of the material elements.

 

These definitions are based on Jaiva Dharma by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. The brahmajyoti and the mahat-tattva are not the same thing. Somebody is not doing their homework!

 

 

Well, the above simple points have been made several times to the same person and if he still doesn't get it, he either doesn't want to get it, or he is not being allowed to get it due to having committed far too many offenses to the Lord's pure devotees.

Even within ISKCON it seems that about a third of the devotees believe that the jiva falls from Vaikuntha, about a third believes that the jiva falls from the brahmajyoti and about a third are undecided. Despite the on-going debate these per centages and divisions seem fairly constant with very, very few changing their position. All sides in the debate claim that Srila Prabhupada is their authority, but the Fall and Dreamer advocates tend to wrap themselves in the flag of supposed loyalty to Srila Prabhupada and either covertly or overtly allege that the other side is somehow disloyal. One of their ploys is to claim that those who believe in the tatastha origins (brahmajyoti) are somehow impersonalist. But the contradiction is that they also use this srategy against non-ISKCON acaryas who tend to give more detailed information about Krsna's "personal" pastimes. Then, when they hear about such detailed personal descriptions they then make the charge of sahjiyaism. Why would those who are more concerned with the actual pastimes of Krsna be impersonalist because they accept the tatastha origin of soul, while those fall and sleepervadis, who claim to be personalists, have very little interest or understanding of Krsna's pastimes? Isn't that a strange contradiction? And isn't it indeed a major Vaisnava aparadha to claim that those who are strongly fixed in the concept that to serve Krsna in His pastimes with full prema are actually Mayavadis? And what will be the result? One can only assume by simple logic that those who take that unhappy path will be barred from further attraction to the pastimes of the Lord. There but for the grace of God go I.

Excellent post. I highlighted in bold the ironic (un)philosophical stance displayed from the fall/sleeper side which you were able to articulate far better than myself. I doubt that they see the irony themselves, and probably nothing we say will change their misfortune. But perhaps the 1/3rd of the Isckon devotees who are still undecided may appreciate what has been expressed above.

I am going to stay here if you will excuse me, I am going to enjoy my new found freedom by helping sick people who need healing. I don't need God to do this.

Srila Prabhupada said that pure devotees do not misuse their free will. And why should they? As Kulapavana prabhu pointed out, Krsna is all-attractive. Krsna-prema is the perfection of life. And in Goloka Vrndavana, prema is ever-increasing. It is what the soul hankers for, and having attained this, there is no question about becoming "curious" for other so-called "higher" pleasures in life. No one falls from the level of prema. It is possible at bhava, (as in the case of Bharata Maharaja, becoming attached to a deer), but this example is simply given to illustrate the need for not stopping at bhava, but to perfect that bhava by attaining prema. Non-liberated souls who have not yet tasted the indescribable joy of krsna-prema are subject to misusing their free will.

Those who are under the impression that pure devotees in Goloka Vrndavana can fall from prema, or can lose that prema while sleeping or daydreaming have not yet grasped, even intellectually, what krsna-prema is all about.

The entire philosophy of Bhakti is rooted in a big IF.

And that is a subjective opinion. But what if it's true? You're approaching it from the angle "what if it's not true?"

One doesn't need to wait til the next life to find out if this process works. Ultimately, as Sriman George Harrison said, "The proof is in the pudding." There must be some taste, otherwise we will eventually give it up. Or some deep impressions of having experienced that taste in the past. Have you never experienced any joy from engaging in any of the 9 limbs of Bhakti Yoga, beginning with hearing, chanting, and remembering?

Hey Mississippi,

The reason we can't hear God talk is because we're deaf. That's why we engage in the process of Bhakti Yoga, to purify our senses so that we can see and hear God talk, walk, play...

The Peace Corp is nice, but it will only postpone the inevitable. Eventually, even if it takes another 200 million births, you will finally surrender in full to Lord Sri Krsna. And hey, I'll probably be there with you, washing pots in a Temple somewhere while you give class. I want to stick around a while longer and argue about ritvik and jiva fall.

Oh, and the reason I called you Mississippi... it's a simple word association metamorphosis: Red Sox/White Sox/Nellie Fox/Whoa Nellie!/Keith Jackson/Jackson Mississippi. Hope you don't mind.

Well I don't see it unless he changes his stance on Jesus because it was in complete contradiction with Prabhupada but I gotta admit he was very knowledgable and there is hope for him if he can get the Jesus thing staightened out.

If he's studying under the guidance of Srila Narayana Maharaja, (which I have no idea to be the case) then yes, he will learn that Jesus is a pure Vaishnava.

Notice the stick figure over the top of the head of the "guru". He is riding a bicycle, has long hair and an insane smile. The stick figure represents SDG's mind. It wants to fly away and enjoy the material world. But SDG's intellegence is telling him to stay on as a sannyasi, "till the last breath".

Interesting observation. Also worthy of note are the handlebars in the shape of a trident, which would symbolize lust, anger, and greed. The L in "Last" is pointing to the rear wheel, which is smaller than the front and sort of pinkish, indicating a keen endeavor to get in touch with one's feminine side. There are no baseball cards on the spokes, which means that the individual has finally transcended the desire to become a major league ballplayer. Either that, or the individual is totally disgusted with the whole steroid/HGH Mitchell Report/Balco scandals which currently plague MLB. I mean, consider the reasons why the war on steroids in baseball has been such an abysmal failure: money, 160-day regular seasons, money, injuries--the kinds that keep you from playing, but more importantly, the kinds that don't but that degrade your performance and put you to shame before your teammates, ESPN, your city, and the kids...we all do it for the kids.

A pure devotee of the Lord can never forget those lotus feet in any circumstance. He will not give up his shelter at the lotus feet of the Lord for a single moment-indeed, not for half a moment-even in exchange of the benediction of ruling and enjoying the opulence of the entire universe. (Bhag. 11.2.53, text)

"Never forget" would also apply to to the dreams of a pure devotee.

Mahavisnu, the incarnation of Sankarsana, establishing Himself in the jiva-sakti as Paramatma, reveals the jiva-souls of the mundane world. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya. Till by dint of God's grace they get shelter under the Hladini (bliss-giving) element of the cit-sakti, they are liable to be overcome by maya. As such, the conclusion is that it is the jiva-sakti that begets the jivas, and not the cit-sakti. (Jaiva-Dharma, p. 216)

Mundane existence is itself a kind of fear because in all mundane bodies the effects of birth, death, old age and disease always keep a living being compact in fear. In the mundane world, there is always the influence of time, which changes things from one stage to another, and the living entity originally being avikara, or unchangeable, suffers a great deal on account of changes due to the influence of time. The changing effects of eternal time are conspicuously absent in the immortal kingdom of God, which should therefore be understood to have no influence of time and therefore no fear whatsoever. (Bhag.2.6.18, purp.)

"No fear whatsoever" would also apply to the dreams of the pure devotees who reside in Goloka.

. . . a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls. (Bhag. 3.15.48, purp.)

"Never falls" means exactly that: never, which includes nap time.

Where not only is life eternal, blissful and full of knowledge... ignorance, misery, egoism, anger and envy–are completely absent. (Cc. Madhya 5.22, purp.)

Which again, applies not only to the waking state, but sleep, naps, snaps, dreams, daydreams, nightdreams...

The pure devotee has no actual chance to fall down, because the Supreme Godhead personally takes care of His pure devotees. (Bg. 9.34, purport)

Which means that even though love is based upon free will, pure devotees never misuse free will. Only non-devotees or weak devotees misuse free will.

The devotees of the Lord do not misuse their freedom. (Bhag. 1.8.23, purp.)

The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. (Krsna Book, Ch. 28, 6th paragraph)

Je ne veux pas tenter d'entrer dans un supposé "parfait" royaume où les résidents ont tendance à avoir des cauchemars infernale qui durera pour une durée de vie de Brahma. Existe-t-il un autre endroit plus élevé que Goloka que je peux aspirer , où les mal rêves ne se produisent pas?

Pyle!!! Ten HUT!!! It is so VERY hard for me to believe that just trying to use one's personal intelligence to decypher one's eccentric gobbly-dook is so incredibly taxing and exhausting! Perhaps my ever-so-long attendance in this transient madness is the key of understanding which is hidden under our numerous rocks??? Of course, none are to blame for not having the buried clue. Even the Wild Man of Borneo whom I dined with last week found to his and my amazement that we were on the very same page on our world assessments (including global warming), what to speak of the soul's origin. Narcissism, that crazy li'l unknowner which will belittle everything else we have ever known will upset all systems on which humans depend for organization. Begging the question, does one go it solo or will altruistic team work begin for survival's sake? Or do we have more in common than those trite aspects which seperate us? Pyle??! What sayeth you!!! Pyle!!! Ten HUT!!!

I'm a wisened, grizzled, veteran armchair philosopher and I can "out-Muni" you and anyone here everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. Look.... all I'm doing is taking statements of Srila Prabhupada about the origin of the soul and about how our fallen condition is like a dream, mixing them together, extrapolating and inventing a new philosophy and then packaging it with Srila Prabhupada's face on the label. What's the big deal? If you got a problem with that, you need to watch more CSPAN.

Our material existence is like a dream but at a certain point the analogy fails. For instance some people don't need an alarm clock to awaken in the morning, they just get up by themselves. But we are never told that although we are "dreaming" our material existence, that we can "wake up" without receiving the holy name of Krsna from Sri Guru and following his instructions. If we really were just dreaming then we could just wake up.

Cc. Madhya-lila 22.10-11, text

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>The living entities [jivas] are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned. Those who are eternally liberated are always awake to Krsna consciousness, and they render transcendental loving service at the feet of Lord Krsna. They are to be considered eternal associates of Krsna, and they are eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Krsna. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

"Always awake to Krsna Consciousness." This is the direct opposite of sometimes sleeping in material consciousness, i.e. daydreaming about maya, as if maha-maya could ever enter Goloka Vrndavana to begin with.

I know in the core of my heart....

Anyone on both sides can say this due to their individual conditioning and sentiment. But that is not the criteria when debating spiritual topics. Guru, Sastra, Sadhu is the standard. Along with perhaps a healthy dose of logic, common sense, and objectivity. As well as the ability to debate the points which are being made in a timely and straightforward manner. I see very little of these things happening from the fall/dreamer side of the "debate."

I tried to edit my previous post, but I guess the time had expired. Don't know much about paint or photoshop, so I experimented with the airbrush.

Little did this man from 1941 German-occupied France ever suspect that he would become semi-famous around the world some 65 or 70 years later via cyber-space.

Cher monsieur, j'ai appris des sources fiables qui est réellement sacre bleu.

(Dear sir, I have learned from reliable sources that is actually sacre bleu.)

 

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

 

...Those who reach it never return to this material world.

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So "yad gatva" is literally, "where going", or "those who reach it". So going to the dhama (goloka or Vaikuntha) or to "reach" there, yet if Srila Prabhupada wanted to stress, "going back" he had the perfect opportunity in this sloka, yet he did not. Why didn't Krsna say, nivartante and then "na nivartante"? Krsna Himself said upon "gatva" or going, He didn't say returning! This is a perfect example of the sanskrit not supporting the "back to godhead" parable. I am not denying that things can be viewed differently from the aspect of eternity. The eternal aspect or view must be applied judiciously otherwise one will fall under the misconception that Krsna's nitya parikara ragatmika associates are fallible.

Cher monsieur est là de toute façon vous peut cultiver la sorcière mauvaise de l'ouest hors de l'image. Elle me conduit fou !

We all originated in German occupied France:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

May God help us all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

(peut Dieu nous aider tous.)

 

 

 

notez la sorcière mauvaise de l'est vers la gauche immédiate du monsieur le plus misérable qui pleure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, and that's an important distinction to make. Not just any France, but German occupied France.

Odd, but looking at the people in the above picture, the lady to the left of the crying man bears some resemblance to Caroline "Ma" Ingalls, as well as to the Wicked Witch of the West.

These pastimes and descriptions are ever-fresh and filled with unlimited nectar. Unfortunately, due to my offenses, I am unable to taste this nectar. Yet, reading these words from the Sadhus has given me a ray of hope.

Thankyou for sharing.

Help the Rtviks are coming!!!

 

 

Why me?

 

 

 

 

 

 

So you are saying that I am more or less condemned by the process of material energy? I'm afraid to shave up!

 

 

 

The way I read it, he was trying to say: In Soviet-occupied Russia, a sinister madman conives to maintain total control as spectators watch the historic flags of Soviet regiments leave to cross the Rhine into Germany, Aug. 19, 1945, in Moscow.