madhavachari

It´s been fun to see your reactions. Very few persons on these forums actually understand what I am talking about. Study more, unless you are already too brainwashed by your Bungla gooroos, and you will find out what is what. Take care.

Pankaja dasa, if you think Srivaishnavas believe in Radha you obviously need to study a lot harder!

Madhavachari is unique, Sri Vaishnava's believe in Sri Radha.

 

I could quote some verses to nulify the exsistance of Narayana and Lakmi, (if I was an impersonalist). I don't know whether Madhachari is an impersonalist or a personalist, from the way he speaks about Krishna and Sri Radha.

Ok, let´s see those quotes!

Do you read Bhagavad-gita Madhavacari?

 

Or do you think this is a false scripture.

Pankajadasa ji, if you knew anything about Srivaishnava philosophy you wouldn´t ask that question.

yadAsya ShoDaSikasya sArdhatrikoTIrjapati tadA brahmahatyAm tarati| tarati vIrahatyAm | 8

 

"'When a brahmana chants this mantra of sixteen names, for a total of one and one half crore times, he becomes free from the sin of killing a brahmaNa. He overcomes the sin of neglecting his domestic fire.'"

 

Looks like you need to chant 15 million names of Narayana to be freed of killing just a single brahmana. Whereas just walking around a tulasi plant removes the same sin.

Yeah, well, this is not an upanishad that Srivaishnavas emphasize. But you Gaudiyas have taken your "maha-mantra" from it. And it says that by chanting the mantra one and a half crore times you get that particular result. If you rather walk around a tulasi plant instead of chanting it, feel free to do so.

Just replace the word Radha with Lakshmi and see how ludicrous your statement would be to a Sri Vaishnava.

But to replace the word Lakshmi with Radha is ludicrous in itself.

This is not a mantra, but verses in Bengali.

Do the names of Narayana include Lakshmi?

Sometimes.

As they are names of Narayana, why would anyone want to think about something else? For what purpose? As Narayana is the ultimate goal of all living beings according to the scriptures. On the other hand, thinking about a Radha does not make any sense and has nothing to do with reality.

There is only ONE God, ladies and gentlemen...

The final word in this discussion is the origin of the mantra itself, namely Kali-santarana Upanishad!

"'By merely uttering the names of the Primeval Purusha, who is

Bhagavan Narayana, one is freed from the clutches of Kali.' Narada

asked again: 'What are those names of Narayana?'"

sa hovaca hiraNyagarbhah

hare rAma hare rAma rAma rAma hare hare

hare kRShNa hare kRShNa kRShNa kRShNa hare hare"

I was under the impression that Sri Varada Yatiraja Jeeyar didn't like his disciples quarreling with other people on matters of theology. His mood, I believe, is that he likes to see only the good things we can see in someone, and to forget about the other things that are temporary and material. Someone might make a point of attacking Sri Rami Sivan because he is a homosexual but his Gurudeva is always going to be merciful to Rami. In this way, it is better to let others follow their own path and beliefs without interfering in their lives.

Your impression is totally wrong my friend.

Are you implying that Sri Ramanuja Acharya didn´t argue against philosophical misconceptions of others?

It refers to Hari, not "Radha". No matter what others might say.

This doesn´t make any sense whatsoever Maharaj.

achintya, "Carl" <rind_19 @=""> wrote:

>

> Dear devotees,

> Acharya Madhva has quoted the "Brahma SaMhita" (aka BRhat-saMhitA) in

> atleast in two places -- Brahma Sutra BhaSya #1.1.1 and BhAgavata

> tAtparya # 11.11.5. Is this the same one that GauDiya VaiSNavas refer

to?

>

 

I haven't looked at the references, but I think not. There is another

Pancharaatric text by the same name which has a completely different

subject matter. I would hazard a guess that this is the one referred to

by Madhva. If you want more info, you can ask Gaura Keshava das, an

ISKCON devotee now turned Tenkalai Sri Vaishnava who resides in Hawaii.

Unfortunately, I don't have his contact information.

 

K

That makes sense. The philosophical contents of the GV Brahma-samhita can hardly be harmonized with Madhva´s philosophy.

</rind_19>

 

"These (sixteen names) destroy the Avarana (or the centripetal force which produces the sense of individuality) of Jiva surrounded by the sixteen Kalas (rays). Then like the sphere of the sun which shines fully after the clouds (screening it) disperse, Parabrahman (alone) shines."

==

 

If you can't see this is an impersonal translation, then Oh man.

What is the smashing about? How old are you?

Anyway, here is a hopefully clearer translation:

iti ShoDaSakalAvRtasya jIvasyAvaraNavinASanam |

tatah prakASate param brahma meghApAye raviraSmimanDalIveti |

Tr: "(This mantra) destroys the sixteen kalas of the jiva, beginning

with the prana, which constitute the veil of ignorance. Then the

Supreme Brahman shines forth, just as the solar disc shines forth

brilliantly when the clouds vanish."

Ok, I didn´t read it the way you did though. Sense of individuality in the other translation I read as false ego. Which is quite different!

However, merging with God is also a possibility as per the Vedas. So don´t criticize it.

Where did you hear Bhaktisiddhanata Saraswati recieved initiation in a dream? He recieved initation (not in a dream). Where did you get this from?

There are witnesses who heard the conversation between Saraswati Thakur and a babaji in Vrindavan. And Saraswati T allegedly said that he had received initiation in a dream. I don´t know if he referred to Sannyasa or Diksha though.

So why did you use an impersonal translation?

I guess you are used to translations that interpret the words instead of translating them. As I said, there is nothing impersonal about Brahman. Nor is brahmajyoti impersonal. Because the Lord is not different from His attributes, such as the transcendental light. What you are doing is to interpret Brahman as "impersonal Brahman devoid of qualities" in the style of Brahma-samhita and Gaudiyas in general. But that is not what it means.

Another point. See that the names Hari, Krishna and Rama, which are in the Vishnu sahasranaman, are names of NARAYANA. It doesn´t say names of KRISHNA.

Here is another translation of this Upanishad. Which by the way is a rather recent upanishad, but accepted because it is in harmony with the Vedas.

The Kalisantarana Upanishad

---------------------------

AUM saha nAvavatu | saha nau bhunaktu | saha vIryam karavAvahai |

tejasvi nAvadhitamastu mA vidviShAvahai | AUM Santih Santih Santih |

Tr: May God protect us (the Guru and the disciple). May we both

enjoy the results (of this Upanishad). May we attain strength

together. Let the study of this (Upanishad) be illuminating to

both of us. Let us not show contempt for each other.

Peace. Peace. Peace.

harih AUM | dvAparAnte nArado brahmANam jagAma katham bhagavan gAm

paryaTan kalim santareyam iti |

Tr: At the end of Dvapara Yuga, Narada, after traveling the world,

approached Lord Brahma and asked him:

"How may I overcome the (evil effects of) the Kali Yuga?"

sa hovaca brahmA sAdhu pRShTo asmi

sarvaSrutirahasyam gopyam tacchRuNu yena kalisamsAram tariShyasi |

Tr: Brahma said: "You have asked me an excellent question. I shall

reveal to you the secret of all Vedas, by which you will cross

over the (ocean of) samsara filled with the bad effects of the

Kali Yuga. This secret must be preserved and protected."

bhagavata AdipuruShasya nArAyaNasya nAmoccAraNamAtreNa nirdhRtakalir

bhavati| nAradah punah papraccha tannAma kimiti |

Tr: "By merely uttering the names of the Primeval Purusha, who is

Bhagavan Narayana, one is freed from the clutches of Kali."

Narada asked again: "What are those names of Narayana?"

sa hovaca hiraNyagarbhah |

Tr: Lord Brahma said:

hare rAma hare rAma rAma rAma hare hare |

Tr: O Hari, O Rama, O Hari, O Rama , O Rama O Rama, O Hari, O Hari!

hare kRShNa hare kRShNa kRShNa kRShNa hare hare |

Tr: O Hari, O Krishna, O Hari, O Krishna , O Krishna O Krishna,

O Hari, O Hari!

iti ShoDaSakam nAmnAm kalikalmaShanASanam |

nAtah parataropAyah sarvavedeShu dRSyate |

Tr: This collection of sixteen names (of Narayana) destroys the

evils of the Kali Yuga.

I don't see any other effective means (of liberation) in the Vedas.

iti ShoDaSakalAvRtasya jIvasyAvaraNavinASanam |

tatah prakASate param brahma meghApAye raviraSmimanDalIveti |

Tr: (This mantra) destroys the sixteen kalas of the jiva, beginning

with the prana, which constitute the veil of ignorance. Then the

Supreme Brahman shines forth, just as the solar disc shines forth

brilliantly when the clouds vanish.

punarnAradah papraccha bhagavan ko asya vidhiriti |

tam hovaca nAsya vidhiriti |

Tr: Narada asked: " O Bhagavan, what are the regulations

or injunctions to be followed in chanting these names?"

Brahma said: "There are no regulations to be followed."

sarvadA SuciraSucirvA pathan brAhmaNah salokatAm samIpatAm

sarUpatAm sAyujyatAmeti |

Tr: "By chanting these names always, whether in a clean or

unclean state, a brahmana obtains the

four kinds of liberation, sAlokya, sAmIpya, sArUpya and

sAyujya."

Notes: 1) sAlokya -- living in the abode of God

2) sAmIpya -- living in the proximity of God

3) sArupya -- living with a form identical with God

4) sAyujya -- merging with the body of God

yadAsya ShoDaSikasya sArdhatrikoTIrjapati tadA brahmahatyAm

tarati| tarati vIrahatyAm |

Tr: When a brahmana chants this mantra of sixteen names, for a

total of one and one half crore times, he becomes free from

the sin of killing a brahmaNa. He overcomes the sin of

neglecting his domestic fire.

svarNasteyAt pUto bhavati |

pitRdevamanuShyANAmapakArAt pUto bhavati |

Tr: He becomes free from the sin of stealing gold.

He becomes free from the offences committed against

forefathers, Gods and human beings.

sarvadharmaparityAgapApAt sadyah SucitAmApnuyAt |

sadyo mucyate sadyo mucyate ityupaniShat |

Tr: He quickly becomes free from the sin of giving up all religious

duties. He becomes liberated immediately; he becomes liberated

immediately. Thus the Upanishad.

AUM saha nAvavatu | saha nau bhunaktu | saha vIryam karavAvahai |

tejasvi nAvadhitamastu mA vidviShAvahai | AUM Santih Santih Santih |

Tr: May God protect us (the Guru and the disciple). May we both

enjoy the results (of this Upanishad). May we attain strength

together. Let the study of this (Upanishad) be illuminating to

both of us. Let us not show contempt for each other.

Peace. Peace. Peace.

India has hundreds if not thousands of bogus incarnations in it's history.

Yes and they have spread all over the world.

Oh so it's okay to quote or give an impersonal translation, but Oh Gaudiya (who don't have a tinge of Mayavada or Impersonal) give thier OWN intrepretations. Oh yes.

In fact, you are the one who talks about "impersonal God". But God is not impersonal or devoid of attributes - ever.

The followers of the Ramanuja-sampradaya accepted these arguments. They were bound to accept; they were defeated.

They were not even members of the Sri sampradaya proper, and they were certainly not scholars, which is evident from their answers. They were Ramanandis, whom are a splinter group - their acharya claims he received initiation in a dream, like Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati.

"Impersonalistic"? What is that?

If you are thinking that Brahman is impersonal, you are wrong.

And God´s light (brahmajyoti) is another of his qualities and as you might know, He is inseparable from His qualities.

Someone questioned why people who are not Gaudiyas, such as Yogakriya (Shaiva I guess) and myself (Srivaishnava), are here on the Hare Krishna forum.

I don´t want to cause any disturbance and the purpose is not to prove that "we are right".

But there are issues in the Gaudiya line that need to be addressed and which are very unclear. So far nobody has been able to clarify. So, if I (and all other traditional vaishnavas in India and the world) see all these problems in your sampradaya, perhaps you should listen to your big brothers and be humble enough to reconsider your position.

Ramanuja Sampradaya accepts this verse

But only Gaudiyas accept their own interpretation.

then let me ask you, if I can't pray to Radha as my Heavenly Mother, can I pray to Lakshmi as my Heavenly Mother? or will I need to convert to Shaktism to connect with the Divine Mother. :(

YES

Sri Sampradaya means devotee and servant of Lakshmi and Narayana.

so one can pray directly to Radha as Divine Mother? Is it appropriate to call Radha our Heavenly Mother? Please answer.

NO