brajeshwara das

Here' a famous "Prabhupada Said Story". One time in the very early days of ISKCON one girl had some kind of mystical experience while chanting. When she told Prabhupada about her "altered state", he replied, "keep chanting it will go away". According to Sridhar Maharaja a beginning sadhaka should not put much stock in such experiences. We should think, "oh perhaps it is just some apparition, I am not yet so qualified". Srila Sridhar Maharaja would say, "we don't want that Krsna. We want the Krsna who is very difficult to attain."

Then there is the story he tells about some disciples of Srila Saraswati Thakur who went to their gurudeva and told him, "we have been chanting for several years but we don't feel or experience anything". Saraswati Thakur replied. " That you don't feel anything, that is a good thing. If had come and said that you had some feeling, some attainment, then that would be a bad thing." Sridhar Maharaja would give the example of Mahaprabhu himself, Mahaprabhu would quote Srimati Radharani, na prema gandho'mi darapi me harau. "I don't have a scintilla of a scent of love for Krsna, If I did I would give up this insect-like body." The negative side rather than positive assertion.

What about when it really isn't about us attaining anything, more like Guru showing Himself? Is that something we should keep to ourselves? My experience involves how I came to my Guru, and I often thought it was interesting from a preaching standpoint. Agian something tells me that a public forum isn't the appropriate place to share it, but I'm not sure that it is that off-limites to share when appropriate. I have told close devotee friends, and my wife.

Why do you say "Chaitanya" and not "Sri Chaitanya" or "Lord Chaitanya"?

I think he was seeking the mercy of your instruction

I recently posted a 'mystic' experience I had on these forums, but quickly reconsidered the wisdom in doing so and pulled the post. I think some desire for pratistha is connected with the desire to share these kinds of experiences, and internally I felt some imbalance. Woosyness. I knew it was wrong.

Aren't shastra like Dieties, in that they manifest themselves? We may think someone took some wood, carved it, painted it etc. but the Lord was already there before the Dieties manifest. Krsna Lila is eternally present, so aren't shastra just the manifestation of the already present truth? We should treat the 'books' as non-different than the truth they describe, and the words of a bona-fide Guru are also scripture to me, so they are coming from the eternal realm.

Sorry if I don't make any sense, this body/mind doesn't feel well today.

It's individual sincerity that is the key ingrediant, not some external connection to higher saints.

Surely that is the truth.

if he simply strictly follows whatever is said by Caitanya Mahaprabhu or His representative spiritual master, then he becomes a guru

See, I think this is the thing: no one here is thinking it is so cheap and easily attained to be Guru, we all know this is true. So when someone hears that it all you need is Caitya-guru, or anyone who has Hari-nama initiation can be Guru, or you can be a saint even though you got the Name from a sinner, it sounds wrong and throws up red flags. The bottom line is this is a very rare state, no matter how it may be manifested. But if Krsna wants you to know Him, he will make himself known, that's the bottom line. Ultimately the Name descends, I think that is the most important point, it comes down, it isn't from our own effort but through the will of the Lord. We are all dependent on that mercy.

LOL, exactly!

 

And Brajeshwar ... ROFL! I know you're being humble but that is a funny pic!

My wife says I'm the donkey from Shreck and she is the dragon. (Chinese born in year of the dragon). I guess that means she agrees that I'm an ass!

Dayal Nitai, Hari bol!

here's mine

I am sorry but you do not understand the point I was trying to make.If interested please reread my post.

 

Search for Sri Guru and his grace is exactly what approaching Caitya-guru is. Do you have some way of discovering Krsna's devotee without the guidance of Caitya guru? If so please share it with us.

 

I have read Sri Guru and His Grace and have my own copy. But thanks for link anyway.

 

You are not offending anyone prabhu. Disagreement is not the same as being offensive.

Sorry theist, my comments weren't directed at you and I definitely wasn't trying to give you instruction, just clarifying to the original poster to search out a Guru manifest on earth. And I'm not saying Caitya-guru is not of primary importance. Also, I'm not trying to exert any 'peer pressure' to join a 'club' and find it distasteful to hear Guru parampara referred to in that way, though it may be true that often that is the case. I personally think those comments may not be altogether helpful.

The reality is scriptures don't tell us to only read shastra and listen to Caitya-guru, but to find a bona-fide spiritual master and surrender. This is what the association of the devotees means - who is His highest devotee? Guru. If we can't find (or can't see we have) physical association we can rest assured we can find 2 of the three readily in shastra and Caitya-guru. Anyhow, I don't want to discuss some chicken-and-the-egg scenario - which comes first, Guru inside or Guru outside? I am too fallen to understand that clearly.

Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada took initiation from Guru manifest on earth, His example was to surrender in that way. If you take your instruction from Him, I would think you would see this as the example. This is the way of the Vaisnavas.

I definitely agree that you should try and listen to Caitya-guru and that Guru is there in the shastra (which I include all Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada's books to be, not just His translated ancient scripture), but the importance of Guru in bodily form can't be minimized. It may be possible only to listen to Caitya-guru and books, but can you hear Caitya-guru clearly? Do you fully understand all you read? Keep searching for the Guru in physical form. It is my feeling so many of the problems ISKCON has had is because they are lacking the Acharya in physical form, and even though Srila Prabhupada spelled it out so clearly so many times, without His direct association misunderstanding of His desires occured, still occurs. Even when Guru is there, in the same room, we may misunderstand, what to speak of when we can't ask for clarification. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada and His mission, I don't mean to say anything offensive.

I recommend you read the book Sri Guru and His Grace in it's entirety online here. Search for Guru even when you find Him, because he is deeper than we know.

"Pakhana"? What is that? Is it Yiddish for parikrama?

You really need to have a serving attitude to approach Guru, not to 'take' something but to surrender yourself. My Gurudeva is so merciful to me, the only direct instruction (beyond instructions in sadhana etc in darshan or if I was directly asking for service) was to chant 16 rounds without offense and follow the regulative principles. This is His great mercy because I am so fallen, if He gives me too many instructions I may not be able to follow and cause offense. It sounds like you want this sort of merciful Guru. But really you should beg for service from Guru, this is the point of bhakti yoga, to surrender to the servant of the servant of the Lord and serve. We are here to serve the Holy Name, it isn't here to serve us. You (nor I!) will receive it truly until we are proper receivers, this means taking a negative position with deep humility and selflessness. I would suggest you aren't ready to take initiation until you feel the necessity inside yourself to serve.

poster known as krsna: could you try posting in a smaller font, I just disregard all your posts and threads because they bug out my eyes. No need to 'shout'.

We are what doing? Arrangement, making arrangement for Sankirtan. If there is no Sankirtan there is no result. And Sankirtan will be without offense. And first offense is satam ninda namnah param aparadham vitanute that meant sadhu ninda we not with... abuse anyone. Who is sadhu we do not know. Then we will be protected with that thought. I shall be good. You are good or bad, that is another thing. But first I shall be good, and with that knowledge if I shall proceed, I shall get benefit. ~ from Sharanagati To Humility, Tolerance & Giving Honor To Others Krsna.cc radio archives, by Swami B.S. Govinda

I should consider the following is for me to practice, not for others. Sorry if this is inappropriate, I'm not trying to instruct anyone, I just want to remove the obstacles that are getting in the way of the mercy:

Trinad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna amanina manadena kirtaniya sada harih

"One should think oneself to be more humble than the blade of grass, more tolerant than the tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige, and ready to offer all respect to others. In such a state of mind one can chant the Holy Name of the Lord constantly."

Nobody is willing to speak on their own level because we are so fallen and we are impatient with our status and even embarassed by it. Being unwilling right now to go through the internal changes required to be granted true access to those higher lilas we try to compensate by intellectually mimicking them. This is not helpful to the growth of our creepers and even is harmful and self-deluding.

 

As I've said, I'm unqualified and can't make the subtle distinctions in interpreting sanskrit in the scriptures. You have no arguement from me there, I am a beginning beginner. Maybe all I can handle now is the books of my Gurus. Though I am low and unqualified, I will end my posts here by trying to answer some of your questions:

No mention of Demigods?: amara (though I am no scholar) is used frequently in shastra to describe Demigods. Daivata is as well. If the English word 'Demigod' doesn't appear them I'm sorry. The vedas weren't written in English. And I know depending on the context different words can be interpreted differently, that is why we need Guru and sadhus to guide us in our understanding of shastra.

No reference to mayavadi in the scriptures? From the Padma Purana:

sivasya sri-visnor ya iha guna-namadi-sakalam

dhiya bhinnam pasyet sa khalu hari-namahita-karah

jīvera nistāra lāgi' sūtra kaila vyāsa

māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa

I bet He can play Karatals with one Karatal too.

Guest1 reading your last replies maybe I was too harsh, I may sound more serious than I intend and I know reading words on a page isn't the same as having a face to face discussion. Maybe face to face we would be smiling. Part of what you are saying not to have a party spirit and I definitely feel the same way, and if you believe in the Personality of Godhead then I think we essentially agree and it may be more a matter of using different words to describe the same thing. Different perspectives or realizations on the same truth. But to be clear Mayavadis are in denial of the Lord's form and seek to lead the jivas into an extinction of thier individual personality through merging into 'one'. Wanting to be God themselves. To my internal feeling and the teaching of my Gurus this is a bogus goal and and therefore I can't ignore the distinction.

Thanks for your kind words but regarding what I may say, if my Guru says Siva is a demigod, then that is what I accept. Because you don't accept the authority of Guru I believe you have a fatal misunderstanding. I never said you need to be in a certain sect or line, I said you have to be chaste to your Guru because he is your guide. If you are in a Math class do you seek independent confirmation for every lesson the professor is teaching or do you have faith that you have selected the correct school? What kind of success will you have if you don't trust in him? Anyone in school knows that there are other schools and classes available but they chose thier current school because they found it most qualified or suited to thier needs. A cheater may have chosen his school because they will give him a Master's degree in only six weeks, but it would be obvious to all the value of that education.

Srila Sridhar Maharaj:

I'm in no way angry with you, why should I be? Krishna is for Himself and by Himself, and no amount of arguing will change that. The truth is beyond me and I have no illusion that I possess it. That you see anger where it isn't should tell you something as well.

That Mahaprabhu chose a mayavadi guru for His own purposes in no way means someone wishing to engage in devotional service should seek initiation from a Mayavadi. Because Lord Siva drank an ocean of poison doesn't mean that you can! Because Krsna dances with the Gopis doesn't mean we should attempt to enter in that pastime. That would be offensive to even consider. What my Guru has said resonates in my heart, what you have said shown a lack of manners. No offense intended, but I think I'll stick with my line, even if you don't approve.

I'm not offended by you personally, I know in you're own way you mean well, but you have written offensively which is unfortunate for you. These forums should at the very least be a place where ideas can be discussed with civility. You should appologize to the disciples of Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada and seek the mercy of Nityananda Prabhu. As for appreciating my bhakti, that is impossible because that is something I don't possess. With the mercy of the vaisnavas may that one day be true.

Can anyone recommend the best spiritual videos for young children? I need the audio in English for a 4 year old, I have the Ramayan made in Japan (pretty good, entertaining for all). What other videos should I look out for?

Theist - charter schools are voucher systems. I totally agree with the sentiments you expressed, especially the demon's caffeteria.

Guestabc - I agree with you that contemporary science doesn't necessarily teach atheism. Srila Sridhar Maharaj said "We have to accept something

of what Darwin says but where does the fossil come from?" I think we need to make sure the curriculum in a science class is not preventing this question from being asked, not in that class necessisarily but not teaching children to close the door on the question. Then in philosophy class (younger children should have some exposure before High School!) these sorts of topics can be discussed. In a school run by your faith, then they can be intricately described.

For His lila Krishna may do something seemingly mundane to a mundane person. You think Krishna needed a Guru for His instruction, whether as Rama, Krishna, or Mahaprabhu? I'll definitely read Nectar of Devotion because I lave learned to take good advice no matter the source, but honestly any credibility you may have had to be taken seriously dissolved when you started to be offensive. I wish you well, but please consider how you present your case.

As for myself, I would never claim to be qualified to argue Shastra but again only shared what I heard from Guru. If in any way I have caused offense to anyone here I deeply regret it and seek your forgiveness.

The Lord isn't bound by our laws, and moves in His own way. From Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada's Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta purport to Ādi 3.34:

During the time of Lord Caitanya, the influence of Śańkarācārya in society was very strong. People thought that one could accept sannyāsa only in the disciplic succession of Śańkarācārya. Lord Caitanya could have performed His missionary activities as a householder, but He found householder life an obstruction to His mission. Therefore He decided to accept the renounced order, sannyāsa. Since His acceptance of sannyāsa was also designed to attract public attention, Lord Caitanya, not wishing to disturb the social convention, took the renounced order of life from a sannyāsī in the disciplic succession of Śańkarācārya, although sannyāsa was also sanctioned in the Vaiṣṇava sampradāya.

~~

To say that because He took sannyāsa from a Mayavadi is to ignore His teachiings. We (including Mayavadi sannyasis!) are here for His service, He isn't here for ours. So he picked up and used a hammer when he wanted it. He is the Lord after all.

Now Guest1, you can bad-mouth Gaudya Vaisnavas all you want, you are entitled to your opinion, but I feel you should be careful what you say, it may come back to haunt you. I am being chaste to my Gurudeva and not engaging in mental speculation. You say 'think for yourself' to interpret scripture but the scripture itself says to hear from Guru. I will not offend the gurus you mention above but please understand they are not my Guru and not in my line, and as you see my parampara as invalid so may I see yours as well. Please stop causing offense through slander since you surely put your own fortune at risk.

The Lord has blessed you with a broad and liberal vision of how He bestows His mercy brajehswara. May will all receive that same blessing.

I'm humbled by your kind words Prabhu. It is the mercy of Srila Govinda Maharaj who has told us 'don't think I'm the only Guru' when maybe some disciples were feeling a little puffed-up and full of party spirit. Srila Sridhar Maharaj and Govinda Maharaj give honor to Christians liberally, of course without being unchaste to our line, but they pay thier respects and acknowledge wherever they see Guru. Like was mentioned before, how many disciples can a Guru take? So even if one Guru can take a million disciples, that isn't even a drop of the jivas crying out for mercy in this material world. Maybe some can't hear from the Vaisnavas, so Christ is there to help them and so on. Dayal Nitai, may all receive His mercy.