Ananga

That was quite a nasty comment Mr. Satyaraj. Wasn't it Madras Krsnadas Baba that put up so many ISKCON/GM folks with nightly accommodations over the years at Radha Kund? [This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 05-15-2001).]

jijaji: Do not pay any attention to the cackling of crows or baying of jackals here. Many of us appreciate your comments and your respect for the truth.

The acaryas' position on diksa parampara is quite clear: That mantras must be transmitted in an unbroken succession from guru to disciple. It is obvious that some people want to cloud the issue with references to siksa, but that can only mean one thing: That they are just doing it as a dodge to avoid some fact, such as a missing documentation of their own diksa line. If siksa is indeed some higher concept than diksa parampara, then why is such an important fact never mentioned by the Rupa or Jiva or Visvanatha or Baladeva or Bhaktivinode?

Gauracandra: Can you really blame those outsiders for formulating such negative opinions, considering the type of behavior that has been displayed by those in the garb of sadhus? Naturally there is going to be bigotry towards non-Christian religions, but that just means that saintly conduct must be demonstrated in order to overcome such prejudice.

I thought I did qualify my statement by stating that as long as those miracles (which are not mundane, by the way, but something that defies rational explanation) are accompanied by the signs of sad-acara and demonstration of immersion in bhakti, then they should be taken seriously. The cases you cite show that those individuals did not meet the standards of character expected. As far as certain persons actually producing disciples that have achieved some high level of prema, that is going to have to be scrutinized by way of somehow qualifying those disciples. The saints depicted by Dr. Kapoor are by and large living ascetic lives, so where do you see this potential for ulterior motives such as fame? [This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 05-13-2001).] [This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 05-13-2001).]

shvu - You are going to be in BIG trouble if your wife sees that! I hope you like sleeping on the couch. [This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 05-12-2001).]

We need to consider motivations on this subject. Was the siksa parampara concept put forth to somehow benefit the tradtion, or was it merely a ploy to cover up something scandalous? Re: Orange clothing. Just because a couple of individuals from the Advaita Paribar did something, does not mean that it is orthodox nor does it mean that it was accepted by the mainstream of the tradition as a valid practice. [This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 05-12-2001).]

Satyaraj: Why his sudden venom towards all babajis? Are you now saying that even Gaura Kishore Das Baba and others that are affiliated with Gaudiya Math are also bogus? You get more extreme all the time, brother!

If anyone thinks they are going to successfully refute the article cited, let them first become qualified scholars. Of course, once they do that, they will probably change their minds.

Exactly, Mr. Shakta. Your accusation that jijaji is trying to glorify himself is simply ludicrous. Seems more like your campaign and witch hunt to defame jijaji rather than an honest endeavor in the way of constructive criticism. So, why not reconsider and politely remove your offensive post?

Unfortunately, most westerners equate the term Hare Krsna with fanatical behavior and dishonesty, and for some even criminal activity. Therefore, not singing the maha mantra in kirtan (for those of you that do not belong to the saffron brigade but still want to propagate Mahaprabhu's tradition) serves to disassociate the movement from negative connotations. There is a need to raise Hinduism in general in the estimation of Christian and other traditions that are going to automatically dismiss the whole realm of Hindu sects as either polytheistic or degenerate cults. This means that Caitanyaism needs to be seen by outsiders in its entirety, rather than as a bunch of those 'Hare Krsna' nuts that like to harrass people in airports for money. Also, some organizations that we know of like to chant their maha-mantra japa out loud, which is some sort of new invention. Traditionally japa means silent recitation of mantras. [This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 05-12-2001).]

We see in Dr. Kapoor’s writings about Gaudiya saints something that there is a parallel of in western religious traditions: The manifestations commonly known as miracles. If these accounts are to be believed (and why should they not? - for what ulterior motives could the witnesses to them possibly have, considering that there have not been money nor political power nor real estate at stake, as with certain other organizations that shall go unnamed here), then one should consider the inherent sakti or power that those personalities possess to be able to produce what is beyond the capabilities of ordinary people. It would behoove us to consider the ability to produce miracles as an important yardstick to measure someone’s level of realization (as long as it is coupled with the other signs of good character and immersion in bhakti). Although some individuals need to be revered for their contributions along the lines of publishing books about Caitanyaism and inspiring others to take up raganuga sadhana (or even vaidi marga), should they really be equated with the saints that have displayed the miraculous phenomena that have been reported throughout history? If miracles serve any purpose at all in Radharani’s and Govinda’s plans, then what other than that of manifesting divinity and instilling faith in bhaktas could that purpose be? Finally, does building a religious empire in any way qualify as something miraculous? If that were the case, then any type of large organization would have to be deemed holy (even organized crime).

The forums here, as the ones that were on VNN (does anyone know if those are going to be back online in the future?), indicate something that has been historically insidious when it comes to organized religion: The tendency to harbor the ulterior motive of having one’s particular faith emerge as superior to all others, and in the process somehow denigrate competitors. I would like to draw a distinction between criticism that is meant to ferret out hypocrisy and cheating and that which is only meant to bolster one’s own position. The latter has been a tool of manipulative politicians to control groups of people (I think I really do not need to elaborate upon this by going into the details of self-righteous crusades over the centuries that resulted in atrocities in the name of the Deity) and ultimately to keep a small number of elite leaders sitting at the top of their little (or in some cases vast) empires. I think the recent reaching out by the current pope in Rome to amend the wrongs of the church (as he did in meeting with leaders of the orthodox churches) is an example to be commended. Despite our level of realization as Vaishnavas (whatever that might be for each of us), we need to be vigilant on this to ensure that we do not stoop to elitist tactics. Let those we are presenting our tradition to decide for themselves whether or not we have something of a higher order to offer. If they are like us, then they will appreciate what we have found in the tradition that makes it something special and perhaps more resonant than the various faiths we were raised with (whether that be Roman Catholic or Lutheran or Judaism or Islam or Buddhism or Native American or Shinto, whatever). That then brings us to the matter of our own sectarian battles within Vaishnavism. There are certain standards that we are all going to agree upon, irregardless of our views on parampara and diksa and the origin of the jiva, etc. Within our Gaudiya branch of Vaishnavism, we share common preceptors along the way over the past five hundred years, and no one is going to argue their authority, although some will interpret their teachings in various ways. It would behoove us to view our various sects as constantly evolving and redefining themselves with each new generation, and also as something that does not exist in a vacuum but as interactive with all other religious traditions that its members encounter. We can be like the ostrich or we can strive for openmindedness in the study of comparative religion and history of religion. This does not mean we need to water down our tradition by mixing it with everything else under the sun. It does mean, however, that we should end up with a healthy respect for outsiders, rather than a characteristically un-Vaishnava-like disdain. The use of derogatory terms such as ‘karmi’ does not reflect well on the character of those that want to be considered as Caitanyites in good standing. Nor does the indiscriminate labels of ‘sahajiya’ and ‘mayavadi’ to brand competitors. It appears that many participants here would do well to take a step back and consider what is necessary to judge who is representing our tradition accurately and who possesses the tools to correctly understand the literary heritage and how best to propagate the same and interpret it for time and circumstances. I think there is a tendency to merely consider charismatic personalities that are capable of building up a large following as evidence of the necessary qualifications, when there is much more to consider. The question is whether we are aiming for quality or quantity.

This etymology that traces the origin of various words back to Sanskrit has already been done by linguists, so you are really just reinventing the wheel here. Better to spend your time tracking down the existing literature that has that information.

This etymology that traces the origin of various words back to Sanskrit has already been done by linguists, so you are really just reinventing the wheel here. Better to spend your time tracking down the existing literature that has that information.

A scanner will turn it into a bitmap image, unless you have some good OCR software to convert it to ASCII text that can be posted. Unless they have worked out the kinks in such software over the past few years, such products tend to mangle the image being scanned, most problematic being characters such as the lowercase letter l being confused with capital I. That might still be a boost in your productivity, if at least you can get a high percentage of it scanned then go back in and fix the various characters that do not come across correctly.

Gauracandra: My own standards are not really the issue, but rather those set by the past acaryas. Besides, this pathetic attempt here at refutation hardly carries any weight whatsoever. It does not address the question of heresy with regard to promotion of the siksa parampara concept, nor does it in any way invalidate the diksa lines that have come down to us intact over the past five centuries. [This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 05-12-2001).]

Although the kid would derive some limited benefit in learning some basic things, it would not be worth the involvement with the undesirables he might be exposed to. Also, he might actually be in some real physical danger, based on numerous reports over the years. If he/she were a strong enough individual, then there would be less risk, however cultish brainwashing could take its toll. I vote nay!

Even if they could somehow substantiate Bhaktisiddhanta's diksa and so-called sannyasa, it would still not matter, because many of the followers that came later proved themselves to be totally inept and hypocritical.

It boils down to plain common sense with regard to one's educational credentials. Sanskrit expertise is obviously going to be out of reach for most, however that does not excuse them from having good scholarship and educating rather than proselytizing in a bigoted way (which tends to be the norm with the orange pajama crowd). Everyone knows that those so-called preachers with their title of 'Maharaja' (where did that come from? Nobody in the mainstream Gaudiya community takes such a title.) always hire some scholar who knows what he is doing to translate and then they stamp their own name on the work with a claim of authorship (just out and out fraud). Who really translated the Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu that Bon Maharaja put his name on?

Ask anyone that ever spent time within that institution and they will all tell you that members are not adequately fed, clothed or given basic medical care. Even homeless shelters in American cities can do that much for people.

Everyone knows that the fruit of the so-called Sarsvata parampara, AKA ISKCON is a den of iniquity, wherein there is not even basic humanity. Even the so-called karmis are shocked by the lack of morality and their own standards of conduct are superior with regards to kindness towards fellow human beings. They want to call themselves followers of bhakti yoga, without even a basic understanding of love even in its most material manifestation.

Who is this maniac that calls himself Satyaraja? Where did he purchase that name, at K-Mart, along with his Brazilian drivers license?

jijaji: Why are you wasting your breath on these lunatics? There is no point trying to reason with someone that is not capable of higher brain functions. That would be like trying to educate a chimpanzee at the university level.

Shocking! Scandalous! Such fraud in the guise of religion! Why hasn't someone sued the Isckon and Guaidya Manth for false advertising?