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Ananga

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  1. Brother Puru: No one on these or the VNN forums has said that the path of vaidhi marg is worthless, or that all followers of Sri Caitanya must adhere to the path of rag marg. Obviously there are two paths of bhakti for a reason, since there are different types of people that need a system of practice tailored to their individual needs. The ongoing problem with many of the followers of the two twentieth century Prahupadas is that they are so eager to sit up on the vyasasana and lecture everyone else, when they often only have one piece to the puzzle. For example: the matter of guru-tyaga. This is ordinarily a type of aparadha (or offense), however the sastras enjoin it under certain circumstances. Many GM/Iskcon members took that drastic step because they perceived that their gurus were exhibiting behavior that warranted (according to sastra) such action (one of the most common reasons was that the guru was seen to be vaisnava-vidvesi, or inimical to other Vaishnavas). To bring in a few statements, such as the one by Rupa on anartha nivrtti, while at the same time ignoring all of the other evidence is simply giving an incomplete presentation. One can only surmise from this is that when you do such things, it can only be to win your case at all costs, irrespective of the truth. As jijaji says: PEACE NOW [This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 07-22-2001).]
  2. Also, Puru, it appears that within your own 'camp' you have divisiveness. You are only putting forth the 'right wing' or 'party line' point of view. It is a well known fact that many of the members of both Gaudiya Math and ISKCON have practiced raganuga sadhana for several decades, and I am not referring to that infamous 'gopi bhava' club concocted by a group in Los Angeles years ago.
  3. Puru: I think I have to agree with Jagat, based upon your above post: that I would not want to be on trial where you are the judge. As was mentioned several times on the VNN forums on this and similar topics, the ‘babaji camp’ as you refer to them (I am not sure if that is a respectful or derogatory term at this point) have never advocated replacing nama bhajana w/astakaliya lila smaranam, and certainly never practicing the former exclusively of the latter. So, your apparent ‘counter –arguments’ (as you see them) are really only shedding some light on malpractice of sadhana vis a vis proper practice of sadhana under the guidance of the qualified guru (also something that your opposition concurs on). So, it would seem that you at this point are just dodging the bullet in this case rather than confronting the issue that I raised earlier, which is where your position deviates from that of the previous acaryas. [This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 07-21-2001).]
  4. Why would the founders of Gaudiya Math and ISKCON be promoting bhajana, yet at the same time going against the previous acaryas w/regard to the raganuga practices already put in place. It is quite possible that they were brilliant masters of reverse psychology. As you are all probably aware, the principle is a simple one: When you tell a child not to do something, chances are she/he is going to go ahead and do it (psychologists call this a testing of the boundaries to see how far they can go before there are consequences). So, by discouraging those practices, they were hoping to get the opposite effect (just as in the case of so many of their disciples who could not refrain from various prohibited activities like taking intoxicants and having illicit sex). ACBS Prabhupada used to say that the more intelligent the child, the bigger the rascal. Based on that statement, it would appear he was subtly screening for the most qualified to go and take up the raga marga (Rupanuga) path. It could also be that those who were most likely to deviate from all of the instructions would then benefit from such powerful sadhana and be lifted out of the triguna bondage. Any thoughts on this matter?
  5. There was a PBS series entitled “The Day the Universe Changed”. The narrator, author James Burke, in one episode projected that we as a race are headed for a sort of global controlled anarchy, which is going to be made possible by our communications technologies. If we ponder this idea for a moment, we can envision the possibilities: Law and order, yet minimal interference by government. Optimized freedoms and civil liberties. Elimination of religious tyranny and persecution and increased inter-faith dialogue and tolerance. Elimination of poverty and starvation and a workable channel for medical services and treatments. Think up some more and post them here. To purhase the book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0316117048/002-0810571-8843212 [This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 07-20-2001).] [This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 07-20-2001).] [This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 07-21-2001).]
  6. Puru: You keep harping on the siddha pranali issue. Here's some evidence from various acaryas' statements on the subject: "Eligibility for Raganuga Bhakti 16 a) The siddha-deha does not just come falling out of the sky, but must be formed here and now by mental practise. Srila Narottama dasa Thakura sings: sadhane bhavibe yaha, siddha dehe pabe taha raga marge ei sei upaya "Whatever you think of during your sadhana, you will attain in your siddhi-body. Those are the ways of raga marga."(Prema-bhakti-candrika, 57) sadhane ye dhana cai, siddha dehe taha pai, pakkapakka matra se vicara "The treasure I covet during my sadhana I will receive in my siddha body. The only difference between the two is being ripe and unripe. (Prema-bhakti-candrika, 56)" This means that the difference between the struggling practitioner and the siddha is only in quantity and not in quality. That the siddha-deha does not come from out of the blue, but must be formed through constant meditation is also confirmed in Bhagavad Gita, 8.6: yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajanty ante kalevaram tam tam evaiti kaunteya sada tad bhavabhavitah "Whatever one contemplates throughout life is what one attains when one leaves the body." In the Srimad Bhagavata (7.1.27) it is said: kitah pesaskrtaruddhah kudyayam tam anusmaran samrambhabhayayogena vindate tatsvarupatam "The caterpillar imprisoned by a wasp in (its nest on) a wall, and constantly thinking of the latter through intense hate and fear, attains the form of the wasp." In the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.295) we find: seva sadhakarupena siddharupena catra hi tadbhavalipsuna karya vrajalokanusaratah "A person who desires loving attraction to his beloved deity Sri Krsna in Vraja must serve in allegiance to the people of Vraja, both in the current practitioner's body as well as in the spiritual, mentally conceived body, which is fit for serving the beloved deity." Mental service must be rendered in the spiritual body in allegiance to Sri Radha, Lalita and Rupa Mañjari and service in the current physical body must be rendered in allegiance to Vraja-people like Sri Rupa and Sanatana, according to the commentary thereon by Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti, as well as in his Raga-vartma-candrika. In the Caitanya-caritamrta, (Madhya, 22.154-155): bahya antara ihara dui to sadhana bahya - sadhaka dehe kore sravana kirtana mane - nija siddha deha koriya bhavana ratri dine kore vraje krsnera sevana "There are two kinds of practise - external and internal. In the external practitioner's body the nine devotional practices of hearing, chanting, praising, deity worship etc. are performed and in the mentally conceived spiritual body one renders mental service to Krsna in Vraja day and night." This siddha body should be received from the guru, according to Sri Gopalaguru Gosvami (disciple of Vakresvara Pandita, personal servant of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and first mahanta of the Gambhira Matha in Puri), Dhyanacandra Gosvami (disciple of Gopalaguru Gosvami) and Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakura (last chapter of his book Harinama-cintamani), who was the father of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. Sri Jiva Gosvami says in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283) on initiation: divyam jñanam hyatra srimati mantre bhagavatsvarupajñanam tena bhagavata sambandhavisesa-jñanam ca "Initiation bestows on the disciple not only the mantra, that is God's very form, but also knowledge about his specific relation with Him." In the Bhakti-sandarbha (321) Sri Jiva Gosvami says: saksadvrajajana-visesayaiva mahyam srigurucaranair madabhista-visesa-siddhyartham upadistam bhavayami "I meditate on the specific form of one of Krsna's associates in Vraja, which my Sri Guru-carana has instructed me in, so that I can attain my specifically desired siddhi." We must assume that this means a little more than the self esteem of: "I am a 20-year old book distributor for Krsna on a parking lot," however devotional this may be. Modern Gaudiya Math acaryas desperately try to escape from the above scriptural evidence by saying: "yes, but nowadays nobody is qualified for siddha-pranali anymore." To this can be said (1) that Bhaktivinoda wrote his Jaiva-dharma and Harinama-cintamani in the 20th century, not the 16th and (2) the Bhagavata (11.5.38) states: kalau khalu bhavisyanti narayana-parayanah, "throughout the age of Kali there will be Vaisnavas." 16 b) Raganuga bhakti is not only for perfected souls beyond the stage of anartha-nivrtti. In the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.5) Rupa declares that there are two kinds of sadhana (after first explaining that sadhana-bhakti means practise with the senses, by souls that are still conditioned)- vaidhi and raganuga, and nowhere it is said that raganuga bhakti is a post graduate state of vaidhi bhakti. In the Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya 22.108) Kaviraja confirms this: ei sadhana bhakti dui to prakara eka vaidhibhakti - raganuga bhakti ara "There are two kinds of devotion in practise. One is called vaidhi bhakti and the other raganuga bhakti." There is no mention of the latter's being a culmination of the former. Krsnadasa also declares (C.c., Adi, 4.231-237) that, although raganuga bhakti is indeed a confidential topic, it must still be discussed, for otherwise no one would be able to enter into this knowledge. In the Srimad Bhagavata (10.33.36) we find that Krsna performed the Rasa-lila out of compassion for all conditioned souls and that anyone who hears it becomes a devotee. Sri Jiva Gosvami teaches us in his Vaisnava-tosani comment on this verse: ataeva tadrsabhaktaprasangena tadrsih sarvacittakarsinih krida bhajate, yah sadharanir api srutva bhaktebhyo 'nyo 'pi janas tatparo bhavet. kim uta rasalilarupam imam srutvetyarthah. vaksyate ca: vikriditam vrajavadhubhir idam ca visnoh (S.B. 10.33.39) ityadi. yad va, manusam deham asritah sarvo 'pi jivas tatparo bhavet, martyaloke sribhagavadavatarat tatha bhajane mukhyatvac ca manusyanam eva sukhena tac chravanadisiddheh "Krsna performs this all-attractive game for His devotees, but even ordinary people are attracted to this game by hearing about it. Even they thus become exclusively devoted to the Lord. There is no doubt about this, and it will be further explained in verse 10.33.39. The words manusam deham asritah also indicate that the jivas that attained a human form are able to hear of this game and thus become devotees. The Lord descends on the human planets and it is here that the worship of the Lord assumes its most important form. Hence human beings can blissfully attain perfection by hearing of this game." In the S.B. (10.33.39) one hears that the senses do not become sexually agitated by hearing or reading of the Rasa-lila, but rather that they become freed from lust: vikriditam vraja-vadhubhir idam ca visnoh sraddhanvito 'nusrnuyad atha varnayed yah bhaktim param bhagavati pratilabhya kamam hrdrogamasvapahinotyacirena dhirah "Anyone who faithfully hears and describes the pastimes of Lord Visnu (Krsna) with the ladies of Vraja (the gopis) will attain supreme devotion to God and will soon become free from the heart's disease of lust." Sri Jiva Gosvami comments as follows on this verse: sraddhaya visvasenanvita iti. tad viparitavajñarupaparadhanivrttyartham ca nairantaryartham ca. tacca phalavaisistyartham, ataeva yo 'nu nirantaram srnuyat. athanantaram svayam varnayec ca, upalaksanam caitat smarec ca. bhaktim premalaksanam param srigopikapremanusaritvat sarvottamajatiyam. pratiksanam nutanatvena labdhva; hrdrogarupam kamam iti bhagavadvisayah kamaviseso vyavacchinnah, tasya paramapremarupatvena tadvaiparityat. kamam ityupalaksanam anyesam api hrd-roganam. anyatra sruyate (srigita, 18.54): "brahmabhutaprasannatma na socati na kanksati, samah sarvesu bhutesu madbhaktim labhate param." ityatra tu hrdrogapahanat purvam eva paramabhaktipraptih. tasmat paramabalavad evedam sadhanam iti bhavah. "Sraddhanvita means hearing with faith. This word is used to avoid the offence of disbelieving or disregarding the scriptures - that is contrary to the principles of hearing and chanting. The highest devotion is that of the gopis and hearing and chanting of their devotion is so powerful that this supreme devotion appears in the heart even before the heart's disease of lust is chased out of it. This despite the verse 18.54 of the Gita, which shows an opposite sequence. This shows that hearing and chanting of the Rasa-lila is the most powerful sadhana in existence." In other words, saying: "Don't read Rasa-lila unless you are free from sex desire" is like saying "Don't take the medicine unless and until you are cured." How will you get cured without taking the medicine? Sri Prabodhananda Sarasvati says in his Vrndavana-mahimamrta (4.38): yam yam rupavatim navinatarunim lavanyalilakala- madhuryair munimohinim anuratam bhavotsavavyañjanim tam tam viksya sa thutkaroti paramam divyam api sphuritam sriradhapadakinkaripada-nakha-pranto 'pi yasyatmani "A person in whose heart even the borders of the toenails of Sri Radha's female foot-servants have arisen will spit in disgust when he sees even the most beautiful young, elegant, playful artistic girl, whose sweetness may bewilder even great sages, and who causes a festival of loving feelings." There is no guarantee at all that someone who practises vaidhi bhakti is automatically promoted to raganuga bhakti, rather Srila Rupa Gosvami says in his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu: krsna-tadbhakta-karunya-matra-labhaika-hetuka, "only by the grace of Krsna and His devotees is this path of raganuga bhakti attained." The bhavas or feelings that come forth from the two different paths (vaidhi and raganuga) are totally different (see the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, 1.3.7-14) and so are the kinds of prema (love) (see Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, 1.4.5-8). By reading the books of the Gosvamis, the seed of raganuga bhakti can be sown. If we were not allowed to read them because we are still conditioned, then they were written for nothing, for how can you become free from conditioning without having read them? This is described in Srila Rupa Gosvami's Padyavali: krsnabhaktirasabhavita matih kriyatam yadi kuto 'pi labhyate tatra laulyam api mulyam ekalam janmakotisukrtair na labhyate "No ten million lifetimes of following regulative principles will give you taste for Krsna-bhakti. The only price is greed! Purchase it as soon as it is available anywhere!" It is on sale where the rasika bhaktas speak about Radha-Krsna. In connection with the above sloka, to use the saying "Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread" is an offense to Sri Rupa Gosvami and all his followers, calling them fools. This 'fools rush in' is a mundane saying which only applies to mundane impulsive people and their actions. Srila Visvanatha Cakravartipada teaches in his Raga-vartma-candrika (1.5): napi lobhaniyavastupraptau svasya yogyayogyatvavicarah ko 'py udbhavati, "no candidate ever considers whether he is qualified for this path of raganuga bhakti or not." One cannot learn vaidhi bhakti from the guru and then just learn raganuga bhakti from books, because one's guru did not teach one raganuga bhakti. One should take both initiation and teachings from a raganuga guru (asambhasya tadbhavagambhiracittan kuto syamasindho rasasyavagahah says Raghunatha dasa Gosvami: "How can one enter into the Syama-ocean without having conversed with a devotee whose heart is steeped in love for Radha?") 16 c) Bhaktisiddhanta's self-styled theory 'first maranam (death of the ego) and then smaranam (remembering Krsna's pastimes)" is also contrary to the teachings of the Gosvamis. Srila Narottama dasa Thakura sings in the Prema-bhakti-candrika: sadhana smarana lila, iha na koriho hela "Do not neglect the sadhana (practise, not perfection) of smarana." Again the reverse order: First smarana, then marana, not 'first get cured and then take the medicine." And not just smarana, Srila Narottama dasa Thakura even goes further to specify yugalavilasasmrtisara, "the essential smarana is of the amorous pastimes of Radha and Krsna." 16 d) The idea that "Radharani's name can only be sung on Radhastami" is refuted by Srila Prabodhananda Sarasvati in the Radha-rasa-sudhanidhi (144): radhanamaiva hy anudinamilitam sadhanadhisakotih, "millions of sadhana are fulfilled by daily singing the holy name of Radha." Srila Narottama das Thakura sings: krsna-nama radha-nama upasana rasa-dhama, "singing Krsna's name and Radha's name is the most tasty spiritual practise," jaya jaya radha-nama vrndavana jara dhama krsna-sukha-vilasera nidhi, "all glories to the holy name of Radha that has its abode in Vrndavana and forms the ocean of Krsna's blissful game," and the next couplet, ihate vimukha yei, tara kabhu siddhi nei, yeno nahi suni tara nama, "anyone who is against this will never reach perfection. Let us not even hear their names." 16 e) Some say that Krsna and the gopis only kiss and caress, but do not have actual sexual intercourse. However, the Brahma-samhita says angani yasya sakalendriya-vrttimanti, Krsna performs all sensual activities. Furthermore, Srila Sanatan Goswami writes in his commentary on Srimad Bhagavata 10.14.33 and in his Brhad Bhagavatamrta-tika (2.7.99): nanu na bhavatu pumsam upasthendriyadvara tat gopinam kila saksadeva sampadyate iti cet tarhi dharstyapariharaya, "Of course, male people of Vraja do not relish Krsna's sweetness through their genitals, but the gopis certainly have direct experience of that. Brahma, however, was too shy to mention that." In the Srimad Bhagavata (10.8.31), the elderly gopis complain: evam dharstyany usati kurute mehanadini vastau, "Krsna is so impudent to pass urine in our houses." How can He urinate without genitals? Also in the Bhagavata (10.22.17) it is said: panibhyam yonim acchadya "The gopis covered their sexual organs with their hands." In the Bhagavata at 10.55.2 we find: krsnaviryasamudbhavah "Pradyumna came forth from Krsna's semen." 17) Doing bhajana is not selfish, or acting purely for one's own liberation. To understand this, one first must understand what is the self. Srimad Bhagavata (10.14.55) says: krsnam enam avehi tvam atmanam akhilatmanam, "Krsna is the Self of the selves." The whole preceding story of Krsna's calves and cowherd boyfriends being kidnapped and His expanding Himself into them, and then the mothers and the cows loving their (the Krsna-expanded) boys and calves twice as much as their own offspring, is meant to demonstrate this. In other words, bhajana is done to please Krsna, who is our highest Self, and not to reach personal salvation. The Vedanta-sutra states: anandamayo 'bhyasat, "everyone seeks happiness." For the same reason, the aspiration to relish rasa is not a selfish one. Indeed, Srila Rupa Gosvami has stated in the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu that the goal of bhakti sadhana is to relish rasa: samagripariposena parama rasarupata (2.1.4) vibhavair anubhavais ca sattvikair vyabhicaribhih svadyatvam hrdi bhaktanam anita sravanadibhih esa krsnaratih sthayi bhavo bhaktiraso bhavet (2.1.5) praktanyadhuniki casti yasya sadbhaktivasana esa bhaktirasasvadas tasyaiva hrdi jayate (2.1.6) ... bhaktanam hrdi rajanti samskarayugalojjvala ratiranandarupaiva niyamana tu rasyatam (2.1.9) krsnadibhir vibhavadyair gatairanubhavadhvani praudhanandacamatkarakastham apadyate param (2.1.10) kimtu prema vibhavadyaih svalpair nito 'pyaniyasim vibhavanadyavastham tu sadya asvadyatam vrajet (2.1.11) "Along with these ingredients it becomes the form of highest rasa. This relishable rasa is brought to the hearts of the devotees by vibhavas, anubhavas, sattvikas and vyabhicari bhavas through the practises of hearing, chanting etc. Those who have had the aspiration for devotion in this life and in previous lives, will have the relish of bhakti rasa awakened within the heart. When these two samskaras or cultivations of devotion (from this life and the previous life) reside in the hearts of the devotees it will culminate in the experience of rasa in the form of rati ananda, with the help of vibhavas (incitements) such as Krsna. Then the summit of astonishment and ecstasy will be achieved. Although very small incitements will bring forth very meager relish, this relish will come to full fruition of relish through proper practise." Preaching is not a greater service to Krsna than contemplation. The often (mis-)quoted verse ya idam paramam guhyam madbhaktesvabhidhasyati (Gita, 18.68) contains the words madbhaktesu, proving that this verse describes Krsna-katha amongst the devotees, not disturbing of the minds of the ignorant, which is condemned earlier in the Gita (3.29, tan akrtsnavido mandan krtsnavin na vicalayet), and which is also an offence to the chanting of the holy name (asraddadhane vimukhe 'pyasrnvati yas copadesah sivanamaparadhah). Furthermore, the aforementioned Gita verse (18.68) mentions the words paramam guhyam which means the greatest secret, pearls that are not to be thrown before swine. How do the conditioned souls become devotees then? The Katha Upanisad (1.2.23)provides the answer: nayam atma pravacanena labhyo na medhaya na bahuna srutena yam evaisa vrnute tena labhyas tasyaisa atma vivrnute tanum svam "God cannot be attained by preaching lectures, nor with the intelligence, nor by hearing a lot of scripture. He is attained only by him upon whom He confers His grace. To this person He will reveal His transcendental body." Subsequently, those who think: "I am making devotees", or "He has made so many devotees" is bewildered by false ego. The Bhagavad Gita (3:27) says: ahankara vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate, "Those who are bewildered by false ego think: "I am doing things." The verses in sastra that glorify or encourage preaching and preachers are for those who are on that level of mentality and realisation. Unfortunately most preachers are after labha, puja and pratistha - money, worship and distinction. 18) The origin of the jiva is not the spiritual, but the material world: There is ample evidence in the Srimad Bhagavata (2.9.10): pravartate yatra rajas tamas tayoh sattvam ca misram na ca kalavikramah na yatra maya kim utapare harer anuvrata yatra surasurarcitah "In Vaikuntha there is no mode of passion, darkness or even mixed goodness, there is no power of time, and there is no maya (who can pull the devotee out of the spiritual world)." In the Srimad Bhagavata (4.28.52) it is mentioned that the jiva was with God, but according to Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti in his Sarartha-darsini commentary the jiva meant there only merged with Him as Mahavisnu during the universal dissolution. Sri Jiva Gosvami declares the same in his comment on Srimad Bhagavata, verses 4.28.54 and 64: svasthah pradhanikavesarahitah san tad vyabhicarena purvam isvarakhyahamsabahirmukhataya nastam tirohitam smrtim janasi api kim sakhayam mam ityapi smarasi catmanam avijñatasakham ityatra purvoktam sakhyanusandhanam punarapa iti. atra punahsabdena smrtisabdena tadvismrter nasadikhandanam vivaksitam kintu anadyavrtasyapi sakhyasya svabhavikatvad anaditvam ityeva krtahanyakrtabhyagamaprasangat. "Being svasthah means 'being free from the possession of material nature" tad vyabhicarena means 'not devoted to the swan called isvara. Because of this the memory was lost - nastam. Punar apa means 'regained the consciousness of friends' as was stated in words such as janasi kim sakhayam mam (4.28.52). Here the use of the words punah and smrtih is to indicate the disappearance or destruction of forgetfulness. But that forgetfulness is certainly beginningless although the friendship, which is also covered without beginning, is natural." In the Srimad Bhagavata (6.5.11) we find: bhuh ksetram jivasamjñam yadanadi nijabandhanam, "the earth is a field known as the jiva who has been conditioned since beginningless time," and again (11.2.37): bhayam dvitiyabhinivesatah syad isad apetasya viparyayo 'smrtih, "the apeta, or turning away from God by the jiva, is anadi, beginningless, and that also accounts for fear bhaya. Asmrti means, according to Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti, not forgetting Krsna, but one's own spiritual nature. Viparyaya means taking something for what it isn't, like identifying oneself with the body, which one is not. More evidence is provided by Srimad Bhagavata (11.11.4) ekasyaiva mamamsasya jivasyaiva mahamate bandho 'syavidyayanadir vidyaya ca tathetarah Sri Krsna tells Uddhava: 'Although I am one, O highly intelligent one, it is in relation to the jiva alone, which is a reflection of Mine, that bondage has existed from beginningless time and it is in relation to the jiva alone that the other state (liberation) is brought about through spiritual knowledge." In the Srimad Bhagavata (11.11.7) we find: yo 'vidyaya yuk sa tu nitya-baddho vidyamayo yah sa tu nitya-muktah. "The ignorant soul is eternally bound and the soul filled with knowledge is eternally free," and in the Vedanta-sutra (2.1.35): na karmavibhagad iti cen nanaditvat. "If someone says that the theory of karma cannot explain the inequality within the world, because everyone must have had the same karma in the beginning of creation, then that is not true, for karma is beginningless." In the Mandukya Upanisad (1.9) is the statement: bhogartham srstir ity anye kridartham iti capare, devasyaisa svabhavo 'yam aptakamasya ka sprha. "Some say that He created the world for His enjoyment and others say for His play. That is simply His nature. He is, after all, Self-satisfied - which desires has He left to fulfill?" and (1.16): anadimayaya supto yada jivah prabudhyate, ajam anidram asvapnam advaitam budhyate tada - "When the living entity, who is sleeping the beginningless slumber of illusion, awakens, he realises the unborn, unsleeping, undreaming non-dual truth." [Neither of these citations are in the Mandukya Upanisad. Their source is currently unknown. - Ed.] Sri Jiva Gosvami writes in his Paramatma-sandarbha (46): tadevam ananta eva jivakhyas tatasthah saktayah. tatra tasam vargadvayam. eko vargo 'nadita eva bhagavadunmukhah anyas tvanadita eva bhagavatparanmukhah. svabhavatas tadiyajñanabhavat tadiyajñanabhavac ca. "There are innumerable spirit souls and they are the marginal potency of God. There are two classes of them: one class is favorable to God from beginningless time, and the other class is turned away from God from beginningless time. The first class is naturally full of knowledge and the other is without knowledge." In the Caitanya-caritamrta, (Antya, 3,72-74): prabhu kahe sab jiva mukti yabe pabe ei to brahmanda tabe sab sunya habe haridasa bale 'tomara yavat martye sthiti tavat sthavara jangama sarva jivajati sab mukti kari tumi vaikunthe pathaibe suksma jive punah karma udbuddha karibe sei jiva habe iha sthavara jangama tahate bharibe brahmanda yena purva sama Mahaprabhu said: "If all the conditioned souls would attain liberation the world would become empty." Haridasa replied: "As long as You are in this mortal world You will liberate all the mobile and immobile creatures and send them to Vaikuntha. Then You will again engage subtle (dormant, new) living entities in further fruitive activities, and these mobile and immobile living entities will fill the world up like before" This is in line with Visnu-dharmottara Purana (1.81.12): ekaikasmin nare muktim kalpe kalpe gate dvija abhavisyajjagac chunyam kalasyader abhavatah "Because time has no beginning, the world would be empty by now if only one person per kalpa had been liberated." Markandeya answers (1.81.13-14): jivasyanyasya sargena nare muktim upagate acintyasaktir bhagavan jagat purayate sada brahmana saha mucyante brahmalokam upagatah srjyante ca mahakalpe tadvidhas capare janah "When someone is liberated, the Supreme Lord, who has inconceivable potency, creates another jiva and and thus always keeps the world full. Those who attain Brahmaloka become liberated along with Brahma. Then, in the next kalpa, the Lord creates similar beings." Sri Jiva says in the Priti-sandarbha (1): atha jivas ca tadiyo 'pi tajjñana-samsargabhava-yuktatvena tanmayaparabhutah san natmasvarupajñanalopan mayakalpitopadhyavesac canadisamsaraduhkena sambadhyate iti paramatmasandarbhadav eva nirupitam asti. paramatmavaibhavaganane ca tattatasthasaktirupanam cidekarasanam apy anadiparatattvajñanasamsargabhavamayatadvaimukhyalabdhacchidraya tanmayayavrtasvasvarupajñananam tayaiva sattvarajastamomaye jade pradhane racitatmabhavanam jivanam samsaraduhkam ca jñapitam. "Although the jiva is part of the Lord, he is without knowledge of Him and this deficiency has no beginning. Because of this he is covered by maya. Thus he is united with the beginningless material miseries because his knowledge of his svarupa is covered and he is absorbed in false designations. From beginningless time he is bereft of knowledge of the Supreme truth and thus he has attained the fault of aversion towards God, whose maya covers over his knowledge of his constitutional position and fills him with feelings created by maya, consisting of sattva, rajas, and tamas. This was explained in the Paramatma-sandarbha (47): tatparanmukhatva-dosena labdha-chidraya mayaya paribhutah, where labdha, the attainment, must be considered without time sequence, anadi as stated above. In the Bhakti-sandarbha (120) Jiva quotes from the Vasanabhasya: mukta api prapadyante punah samsaravasanam yady acintyamahasaktau bhagavaty aparadhinah "Offenders to the Lord will again get material desires, even if they are liberated souls." Here the word punah means 'again', which proves that this verse does not apply to eternally liberated souls who fall from the spiritual world. The aparadhis (offenders) mentioned here are the mayavadis that are described in Srimad Bhagavata (10.2.32): aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adho 'nadrtayusmadanghrayah. But this does not count for the bhaktas, as is described in the next verse (10.2.33): tatha na te madhava tavakah kvacid, bhrasyanti margat tvayi baddha-sauhrdah. Srila Jiva Gosvami comments (Bhakti-sandarbha, 120): yatha purve arudhaparamapadatvavasthato 'pi bhrasyanti, tatha tavaka margat sadhanavasthato 'pi na bhrasyanti, kimuta mrgyat tvatta ityarthah. Mayavadis fall down even from the stage of perfection, but even in the stage of sadhana Your devotees do not fall down, what to speak of after attaining You?" According to Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti's commentary on Srimad Bhagavata (3.7.10): tatra bhagavatah prsthasthitaya anadyavidyaya tamahsvarupaya anadivaimukhyarupabhagavatprstha-sthanam jivanam jñanam yal lupyate tasya na vastutvam karanam napi prayojanam kim apy asti. "Ignorance, which is beginningless, is situated on the Lord's back. She covers the knowledge of the jivas who are situated on the Lord's back and are non-devotees. Their non-devotion is anadi. There is no real reason or purpose for their knowledge being covered." Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti's commentary on Srimad Bhagavata (10.87.32) also shows no jivas that have fallen from the spiritual world: te ca meghopamaya avidyaya avrta baddhajiva eke anye bhaktimajjñanena tadavaranonmukta muktajivah anye kevalaya pradhanibhutaya va bhaktya tadavaranonmocitaprapitacidanandamayabhajanopayogisarirah siddhabhakta anye avidyayogarahita eva nityaparsada iti caturvidhah "There are four types of jivas: 1. baddha - those under the influence of the avidya potency. 2. mukta - those liberated from the covering of avidya through bhakti, but who have not yet attained a spiritual body. These are also called jivanmuktas or liberated while living in the material body. 3. siddha - those who have attained a siddha-deha on the strength of bhakti. These are called baddha-muktas or those liberated after being in bondage. 4. nitya-parsadas - those eternally free from contact with ignorance. They never become conditioned, and are also called nitya-siddhas or nitya-muktas." In his comment on Bhagavad-gita (13.20) Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti declares that the conditioning of the conditioned souls is beginningless: mayajivayor api macchaktitvena anaditvat tayoh samsleso 'py anadir iti bhavah. "Illusion and the conditioned souls are both My energies. They are both beginningless and they have been interconnected since beginningless time as well." The word dvesa in Bhagavad-gita (7.27) does not mean envy of Krsna, for you cannot be envious of someone you don't know. In the Brhad-bhagavatamrta Sarupa calls himself a newcomer, nutna (2.6.359): dure 'stu tavad varteyam tatra nityanivasinam, na tisthed anusandhanam nutnanam madrsam api, and later (2.6.366): tallokasya svabhavo 'yam krsnasangam vinapi yat, bhavet tatraiva tisthasa na cikirsa ca kasyacit. "Nobody desires to leave Goloka." Assuming that previously fallen jivas who return to the spiritual world are superior to those who have stayed, because they are shocked by their experience, is not just a speculation, but also an offence to the nitya-muktas. This presupposes that it is better to fall down than to stay and that the 'returners' can anyway remember their ordeal in the material world when they return. That would make devotion out of fear of punishment greater than spontaneous loving devotion, and would make the spiritual world into a concentration-camp. Regarding free will, this is gradually given up in the course of surrender. A siddha-bhakta will never misuse this free will because his surrender is irreversible. When the sadhana-siddha jiva attains the spiritual world he remembers nothing of the material world, for his subtle body has been dissolved through the transcendental process of bhakti. Regarding the fall of Jaya and Vijaya: The feeling of enmity they acquired for the Lord was not because of the Kumaras' curse, but by the will of the Lord. Even so, the Lord did not consider them His enemies. He just wanted to enjoy fighting with them. One should not think that Jaya and Vijaya chose to become the Lord's enemies so that they could finish the curse quickly, because great devotees like them do not desire even salokya mukti without bhakti. And with bhakti they are willing even to go to hell (Bhag. 3.15.48: natyantikam viganayanty ...) They wanted to please the Lord by fighting with Him, but they did not literally choose to become the Lord's enemies so that they could give pleasure to Him. Such a desire is undevotional. Srila Jiva Gosvami further says that their inimical feelings were not real but feigned (abhasa). They entered into demoniac bodies but remained untouched within. As far as Citraketu is concerned, although he offended mother Parvati, he did not fall into material life. Even in a demon's body, as Vrtrasura, he recited wonderful prayers to the Lord. In conclusion: there is no scriptural evidence for the jivas' falling from the spiritual sky. It is not supported by the acaryas, not by our acaryas, nor by those of any other sampradaya. The spiritual world would not be Vaikuntha, the fearless abode, nor would it be free from maya. 19) Loud japa is not better than mental japa. In the Haribhakti-vilasa the Narasimha Purana and Yajñavalkya are cited (17.155-159): trividho japayajñah syat tasya bhedan nibodhata vacikasca upamsusca manasasca tridha matah ... mantram uccarayed vyaktam japayajñah sa vacikah ... kiñcicchabdam svayam vidyad upamsuh sa japah smrtah ... upamsuyuktasya tasmacchataguno bhavet sahasro manasah prokto yasmad dhyanasamo hi sah "There are three kinds of japa - vocal, muttering and mental. Loud chanting of the mantra is called vocal japa, whispering is called upamsu and mental chanting is called manasika japa. Whispering is a hundred times better than loud japa and mental chanting is a thousand times better. This is equal to meditation." 20) There is no santa-rasa in Vraja; the animals and non-moving species are not in santa rasa. Mahaprabhu proclaims in Caitanya-caritamrta that He makes the three worlds dance in four rasas (cari bhava bhakti diya nacaimu bhuvana), not in five. Hantayam adrir abala haridasa varyah (Bhag. 10.21.18) confirms that mountains like Giriraja are in dasya-rasa. The cows in Vraja are in vatsalya-rasa (see the Bhagavata Canto 10, Chapter 13). The statement vamsi priyasakhi from the Brahma-samhita prove that even the flute is in madhura-rasa. 21) Regular devotees are not addressed with prabhu. eka mahaprabhu, ara prabhu dui jana (C.C.): "There is only one Mahaprabhu and there are two prabhus (Nitai and Advaita)." Of course, great acaryas or eternal associates of the Lord are sometimes called prabhu, but this title has never been used for ordinary devotees." So, you say you are following your acaryas, but from the above excerpt we can see that at the same time you are rejecting many of them. I do not think you can have it both ways, can you? [This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 07-20-2001).]
  7. Puru: Are you really sure that you are in line with your own acaryas? Read on: "Eligibility for Raganuga Bhakti 16 a) The siddha-deha does not just come falling out of the sky, but must be formed here and now by mental practise. Srila Narottama dasa Thakura sings: sadhane bhavibe yaha, siddha dehe pabe taha raga marge ei sei upaya "Whatever you think of during your sadhana, you will attain in your siddhi-body. Those are the ways of raga marga."(Prema-bhakti-candrika, 57) sadhane ye dhana cai, siddha dehe taha pai, pakkapakka matra se vicara "The treasure I covet during my sadhana I will receive in my siddha body. The only difference between the two is being ripe and unripe. (Prema-bhakti-candrika, 56)" This means that the difference between the struggling practitioner and the siddha is only in quantity and not in quality. That the siddha-deha does not come from out of the blue, but must be formed through constant meditation is also confirmed in Bhagavad Gita, 8.6: yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajanty ante kalevaram tam tam evaiti kaunteya sada tad bhavabhavitah "Whatever one contemplates throughout life is what one attains when one leaves the body." In the Srimad Bhagavata (7.1.27) it is said: kitah pesaskrtaruddhah kudyayam tam anusmaran samrambhabhayayogena vindate tatsvarupatam "The caterpillar imprisoned by a wasp in (its nest on) a wall, and constantly thinking of the latter through intense hate and fear, attains the form of the wasp." In the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.295) we find: seva sadhakarupena siddharupena catra hi tadbhavalipsuna karya vrajalokanusaratah "A person who desires loving attraction to his beloved deity Sri Krsna in Vraja must serve in allegiance to the people of Vraja, both in the current practitioner's body as well as in the spiritual, mentally conceived body, which is fit for serving the beloved deity." Mental service must be rendered in the spiritual body in allegiance to Sri Radha, Lalita and Rupa Mañjari and service in the current physical body must be rendered in allegiance to Vraja-people like Sri Rupa and Sanatana, according to the commentary thereon by Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti, as well as in his Raga-vartma-candrika. In the Caitanya-caritamrta, (Madhya, 22.154-155): bahya antara ihara dui to sadhana bahya - sadhaka dehe kore sravana kirtana mane - nija siddha deha koriya bhavana ratri dine kore vraje krsnera sevana "There are two kinds of practise - external and internal. In the external practitioner's body the nine devotional practices of hearing, chanting, praising, deity worship etc. are performed and in the mentally conceived spiritual body one renders mental service to Krsna in Vraja day and night." This siddha body should be received from the guru, according to Sri Gopalaguru Gosvami (disciple of Vakresvara Pandita, personal servant of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and first mahanta of the Gambhira Matha in Puri), Dhyanacandra Gosvami (disciple of Gopalaguru Gosvami) and Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakura (last chapter of his book Harinama-cintamani), who was the father of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. Sri Jiva Gosvami says in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283) on initiation: divyam jñanam hyatra srimati mantre bhagavatsvarupajñanam tena bhagavata sambandhavisesa-jñanam ca "Initiation bestows on the disciple not only the mantra, that is God's very form, but also knowledge about his specific relation with Him." In the Bhakti-sandarbha (321) Sri Jiva Gosvami says: saksadvrajajana-visesayaiva mahyam srigurucaranair madabhista-visesa-siddhyartham upadistam bhavayami "I meditate on the specific form of one of Krsna's associates in Vraja, which my Sri Guru-carana has instructed me in, so that I can attain my specifically desired siddhi." We must assume that this means a little more than the self esteem of: "I am a 20-year old book distributor for Krsna on a parking lot," however devotional this may be. Modern Gaudiya Math acaryas desperately try to escape from the above scriptural evidence by saying: "yes, but nowadays nobody is qualified for siddha-pranali anymore." To this can be said (1) that Bhaktivinoda wrote his Jaiva-dharma and Harinama-cintamani in the 20th century, not the 16th and (2) the Bhagavata (11.5.38) states: kalau khalu bhavisyanti narayana-parayanah, "throughout the age of Kali there will be Vaisnavas." 16 b) Raganuga bhakti is not only for perfected souls beyond the stage of anartha-nivrtti. In the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.5) Rupa declares that there are two kinds of sadhana (after first explaining that sadhana-bhakti means practise with the senses, by souls that are still conditioned)- vaidhi and raganuga, and nowhere it is said that raganuga bhakti is a post graduate state of vaidhi bhakti. In the Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya 22.108) Kaviraja confirms this: ei sadhana bhakti dui to prakara eka vaidhibhakti - raganuga bhakti ara "There are two kinds of devotion in practise. One is called vaidhi bhakti and the other raganuga bhakti." There is no mention of the latter's being a culmination of the former. Krsnadasa also declares (C.c., Adi, 4.231-237) that, although raganuga bhakti is indeed a confidential topic, it must still be discussed, for otherwise no one would be able to enter into this knowledge. In the Srimad Bhagavata (10.33.36) we find that Krsna performed the Rasa-lila out of compassion for all conditioned souls and that anyone who hears it becomes a devotee. Sri Jiva Gosvami teaches us in his Vaisnava-tosani comment on this verse: ataeva tadrsabhaktaprasangena tadrsih sarvacittakarsinih krida bhajate, yah sadharanir api srutva bhaktebhyo 'nyo 'pi janas tatparo bhavet. kim uta rasalilarupam imam srutvetyarthah. vaksyate ca: vikriditam vrajavadhubhir idam ca visnoh (S.B. 10.33.39) ityadi. yad va, manusam deham asritah sarvo 'pi jivas tatparo bhavet, martyaloke sribhagavadavatarat tatha bhajane mukhyatvac ca manusyanam eva sukhena tac chravanadisiddheh "Krsna performs this all-attractive game for His devotees, but even ordinary people are attracted to this game by hearing about it. Even they thus become exclusively devoted to the Lord. There is no doubt about this, and it will be further explained in verse 10.33.39. The words manusam deham asritah also indicate that the jivas that attained a human form are able to hear of this game and thus become devotees. The Lord descends on the human planets and it is here that the worship of the Lord assumes its most important form. Hence human beings can blissfully attain perfection by hearing of this game." In the S.B. (10.33.39) one hears that the senses do not become sexually agitated by hearing or reading of the Rasa-lila, but rather that they become freed from lust: vikriditam vraja-vadhubhir idam ca visnoh sraddhanvito 'nusrnuyad atha varnayed yah bhaktim param bhagavati pratilabhya kamam hrdrogamasvapahinotyacirena dhirah "Anyone who faithfully hears and describes the pastimes of Lord Visnu (Krsna) with the ladies of Vraja (the gopis) will attain supreme devotion to God and will soon become free from the heart's disease of lust." Sri Jiva Gosvami comments as follows on this verse: sraddhaya visvasenanvita iti. tad viparitavajñarupaparadhanivrttyartham ca nairantaryartham ca. tacca phalavaisistyartham, ataeva yo 'nu nirantaram srnuyat. athanantaram svayam varnayec ca, upalaksanam caitat smarec ca. bhaktim premalaksanam param srigopikapremanusaritvat sarvottamajatiyam. pratiksanam nutanatvena labdhva; hrdrogarupam kamam iti bhagavadvisayah kamaviseso vyavacchinnah, tasya paramapremarupatvena tadvaiparityat. kamam ityupalaksanam anyesam api hrd-roganam. anyatra sruyate (srigita, 18.54): "brahmabhutaprasannatma na socati na kanksati, samah sarvesu bhutesu madbhaktim labhate param." ityatra tu hrdrogapahanat purvam eva paramabhaktipraptih. tasmat paramabalavad evedam sadhanam iti bhavah. "Sraddhanvita means hearing with faith. This word is used to avoid the offence of disbelieving or disregarding the scriptures - that is contrary to the principles of hearing and chanting. The highest devotion is that of the gopis and hearing and chanting of their devotion is so powerful that this supreme devotion appears in the heart even before the heart's disease of lust is chased out of it. This despite the verse 18.54 of the Gita, which shows an opposite sequence. This shows that hearing and chanting of the Rasa-lila is the most powerful sadhana in existence." In other words, saying: "Don't read Rasa-lila unless you are free from sex desire" is like saying "Don't take the medicine unless and until you are cured." How will you get cured without taking the medicine? Sri Prabodhananda Sarasvati says in his Vrndavana-mahimamrta (4.38): yam yam rupavatim navinatarunim lavanyalilakala- madhuryair munimohinim anuratam bhavotsavavyañjanim tam tam viksya sa thutkaroti paramam divyam api sphuritam sriradhapadakinkaripada-nakha-pranto 'pi yasyatmani "A person in whose heart even the borders of the toenails of Sri Radha's female foot-servants have arisen will spit in disgust when he sees even the most beautiful young, elegant, playful artistic girl, whose sweetness may bewilder even great sages, and who causes a festival of loving feelings." There is no guarantee at all that someone who practises vaidhi bhakti is automatically promoted to raganuga bhakti, rather Srila Rupa Gosvami says in his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu: krsna-tadbhakta-karunya-matra-labhaika-hetuka, "only by the grace of Krsna and His devotees is this path of raganuga bhakti attained." The bhavas or feelings that come forth from the two different paths (vaidhi and raganuga) are totally different (see the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, 1.3.7-14) and so are the kinds of prema (love) (see Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, 1.4.5-8). By reading the books of the Gosvamis, the seed of raganuga bhakti can be sown. If we were not allowed to read them because we are still conditioned, then they were written for nothing, for how can you become free from conditioning without having read them? This is described in Srila Rupa Gosvami's Padyavali: krsnabhaktirasabhavita matih kriyatam yadi kuto 'pi labhyate tatra laulyam api mulyam ekalam janmakotisukrtair na labhyate "No ten million lifetimes of following regulative principles will give you taste for Krsna-bhakti. The only price is greed! Purchase it as soon as it is available anywhere!" It is on sale where the rasika bhaktas speak about Radha-Krsna. In connection with the above sloka, to use the saying "Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread" is an offense to Sri Rupa Gosvami and all his followers, calling them fools. This 'fools rush in' is a mundane saying which only applies to mundane impulsive people and their actions. Srila Visvanatha Cakravartipada teaches in his Raga-vartma-candrika (1.5): napi lobhaniyavastupraptau svasya yogyayogyatvavicarah ko 'py udbhavati, "no candidate ever considers whether he is qualified for this path of raganuga bhakti or not." One cannot learn vaidhi bhakti from the guru and then just learn raganuga bhakti from books, because one's guru did not teach one raganuga bhakti. One should take both initiation and teachings from a raganuga guru (asambhasya tadbhavagambhiracittan kuto syamasindho rasasyavagahah says Raghunatha dasa Gosvami: "How can one enter into the Syama-ocean without having conversed with a devotee whose heart is steeped in love for Radha?") 16 c) Bhaktisiddhanta's self-styled theory 'first maranam (death of the ego) and then smaranam (remembering Krsna's pastimes)" is also contrary to the teachings of the Gosvamis. Srila Narottama dasa Thakura sings in the Prema-bhakti-candrika: sadhana smarana lila, iha na koriho hela "Do not neglect the sadhana (practise, not perfection) of smarana." Again the reverse order: First smarana, then marana, not 'first get cured and then take the medicine." And not just smarana, Srila Narottama dasa Thakura even goes further to specify yugalavilasasmrtisara, "the essential smarana is of the amorous pastimes of Radha and Krsna." 16 d) The idea that "Radharani's name can only be sung on Radhastami" is refuted by Srila Prabodhananda Sarasvati in the Radha-rasa-sudhanidhi (144): radhanamaiva hy anudinamilitam sadhanadhisakotih, "millions of sadhana are fulfilled by daily singing the holy name of Radha." Srila Narottama das Thakura sings: krsna-nama radha-nama upasana rasa-dhama, "singing Krsna's name and Radha's name is the most tasty spiritual practise," jaya jaya radha-nama vrndavana jara dhama krsna-sukha-vilasera nidhi, "all glories to the holy name of Radha that has its abode in Vrndavana and forms the ocean of Krsna's blissful game," and the next couplet, ihate vimukha yei, tara kabhu siddhi nei, yeno nahi suni tara nama, "anyone who is against this will never reach perfection. Let us not even hear their names." 16 e) Some say that Krsna and the gopis only kiss and caress, but do not have actual sexual intercourse. However, the Brahma-samhita says angani yasya sakalendriya-vrttimanti, Krsna performs all sensual activities. Furthermore, Srila Sanatan Goswami writes in his commentary on Srimad Bhagavata 10.14.33 and in his Brhad Bhagavatamrta-tika (2.7.99): nanu na bhavatu pumsam upasthendriyadvara tat gopinam kila saksadeva sampadyate iti cet tarhi dharstyapariharaya, "Of course, male people of Vraja do not relish Krsna's sweetness through their genitals, but the gopis certainly have direct experience of that. Brahma, however, was too shy to mention that." In the Srimad Bhagavata (10.8.31), the elderly gopis complain: evam dharstyany usati kurute mehanadini vastau, "Krsna is so impudent to pass urine in our houses." How can He urinate without genitals? Also in the Bhagavata (10.22.17) it is said: panibhyam yonim acchadya "The gopis covered their sexual organs with their hands." In the Bhagavata at 10.55.2 we find: krsnaviryasamudbhavah "Pradyumna came forth from Krsna's semen." 17) Doing bhajana is not selfish, or acting purely for one's own liberation. To understand this, one first must understand what is the self. Srimad Bhagavata (10.14.55) says: krsnam enam avehi tvam atmanam akhilatmanam, "Krsna is the Self of the selves." The whole preceding story of Krsna's calves and cowherd boyfriends being kidnapped and His expanding Himself into them, and then the mothers and the cows loving their (the Krsna-expanded) boys and calves twice as much as their own offspring, is meant to demonstrate this. In other words, bhajana is done to please Krsna, who is our highest Self, and not to reach personal salvation. The Vedanta-sutra states: anandamayo 'bhyasat, "everyone seeks happiness." For the same reason, the aspiration to relish rasa is not a selfish one. Indeed, Srila Rupa Gosvami has stated in the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu that the goal of bhakti sadhana is to relish rasa: samagripariposena parama rasarupata (2.1.4) vibhavair anubhavais ca sattvikair vyabhicaribhih svadyatvam hrdi bhaktanam anita sravanadibhih esa krsnaratih sthayi bhavo bhaktiraso bhavet (2.1.5) praktanyadhuniki casti yasya sadbhaktivasana esa bhaktirasasvadas tasyaiva hrdi jayate (2.1.6) ... bhaktanam hrdi rajanti samskarayugalojjvala ratiranandarupaiva niyamana tu rasyatam (2.1.9) krsnadibhir vibhavadyair gatairanubhavadhvani praudhanandacamatkarakastham apadyate param (2.1.10) kimtu prema vibhavadyaih svalpair nito 'pyaniyasim vibhavanadyavastham tu sadya asvadyatam vrajet (2.1.11) "Along with these ingredients it becomes the form of highest rasa. This relishable rasa is brought to the hearts of the devotees by vibhavas, anubhavas, sattvikas and vyabhicari bhavas through the practises of hearing, chanting etc. Those who have had the aspiration for devotion in this life and in previous lives, will have the relish of bhakti rasa awakened within the heart. When these two samskaras or cultivations of devotion (from this life and the previous life) reside in the hearts of the devotees it will culminate in the experience of rasa in the form of rati ananda, with the help of vibhavas (incitements) such as Krsna. Then the summit of astonishment and ecstasy will be achieved. Although very small incitements will bring forth very meager relish, this relish will come to full fruition of relish through proper practise." Preaching is not a greater service to Krsna than contemplation. The often (mis-)quoted verse ya idam paramam guhyam madbhaktesvabhidhasyati (Gita, 18.68) contains the words madbhaktesu, proving that this verse describes Krsna-katha amongst the devotees, not disturbing of the minds of the ignorant, which is condemned earlier in the Gita (3.29, tan akrtsnavido mandan krtsnavin na vicalayet), and which is also an offence to the chanting of the holy name (asraddadhane vimukhe 'pyasrnvati yas copadesah sivanamaparadhah). Furthermore, the aforementioned Gita verse (18.68) mentions the words paramam guhyam which means the greatest secret, pearls that are not to be thrown before swine. How do the conditioned souls become devotees then? The Katha Upanisad (1.2.23)provides the answer: nayam atma pravacanena labhyo na medhaya na bahuna srutena yam evaisa vrnute tena labhyas tasyaisa atma vivrnute tanum svam "God cannot be attained by preaching lectures, nor with the intelligence, nor by hearing a lot of scripture. He is attained only by him upon whom He confers His grace. To this person He will reveal His transcendental body." Subsequently, those who think: "I am making devotees", or "He has made so many devotees" is bewildered by false ego. The Bhagavad Gita (3:27) says: ahankara vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate, "Those who are bewildered by false ego think: "I am doing things." The verses in sastra that glorify or encourage preaching and preachers are for those who are on that level of mentality and realisation. Unfortunately most preachers are after labha, puja and pratistha - money, worship and distinction. 18) The origin of the jiva is not the spiritual, but the material world: There is ample evidence in the Srimad Bhagavata (2.9.10): pravartate yatra rajas tamas tayoh sattvam ca misram na ca kalavikramah na yatra maya kim utapare harer anuvrata yatra surasurarcitah "In Vaikuntha there is no mode of passion, darkness or even mixed goodness, there is no power of time, and there is no maya (who can pull the devotee out of the spiritual world)." In the Srimad Bhagavata (4.28.52) it is mentioned that the jiva was with God, but according to Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti in his Sarartha-darsini commentary the jiva meant there only merged with Him as Mahavisnu during the universal dissolution. Sri Jiva Gosvami declares the same in his comment on Srimad Bhagavata, verses 4.28.54 and 64: svasthah pradhanikavesarahitah san tad vyabhicarena purvam isvarakhyahamsabahirmukhataya nastam tirohitam smrtim janasi api kim sakhayam mam ityapi smarasi catmanam avijñatasakham ityatra purvoktam sakhyanusandhanam punarapa iti. atra punahsabdena smrtisabdena tadvismrter nasadikhandanam vivaksitam kintu anadyavrtasyapi sakhyasya svabhavikatvad anaditvam ityeva krtahanyakrtabhyagamaprasangat. "Being svasthah means 'being free from the possession of material nature" tad vyabhicarena means 'not devoted to the swan called isvara. Because of this the memory was lost - nastam. Punar apa means 'regained the consciousness of friends' as was stated in words such as janasi kim sakhayam mam (4.28.52). Here the use of the words punah and smrtih is to indicate the disappearance or destruction of forgetfulness. But that forgetfulness is certainly beginningless although the friendship, which is also covered without beginning, is natural." In the Srimad Bhagavata (6.5.11) we find: bhuh ksetram jivasamjñam yadanadi nijabandhanam, "the earth is a field known as the jiva who has been conditioned since beginningless time," and again (11.2.37): bhayam dvitiyabhinivesatah syad isad apetasya viparyayo 'smrtih, "the apeta, or turning away from God by the jiva, is anadi, beginningless, and that also accounts for fear bhaya. Asmrti means, according to Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti, not forgetting Krsna, but one's own spiritual nature. Viparyaya means taking something for what it isn't, like identifying oneself with the body, which one is not. More evidence is provided by Srimad Bhagavata (11.11.4) ekasyaiva mamamsasya jivasyaiva mahamate bandho 'syavidyayanadir vidyaya ca tathetarah Sri Krsna tells Uddhava: 'Although I am one, O highly intelligent one, it is in relation to the jiva alone, which is a reflection of Mine, that bondage has existed from beginningless time and it is in relation to the jiva alone that the other state (liberation) is brought about through spiritual knowledge." In the Srimad Bhagavata (11.11.7) we find: yo 'vidyaya yuk sa tu nitya-baddho vidyamayo yah sa tu nitya-muktah. "The ignorant soul is eternally bound and the soul filled with knowledge is eternally free," and in the Vedanta-sutra (2.1.35): na karmavibhagad iti cen nanaditvat. "If someone says that the theory of karma cannot explain the inequality within the world, because everyone must have had the same karma in the beginning of creation, then that is not true, for karma is beginningless." In the Mandukya Upanisad (1.9) is the statement: bhogartham srstir ity anye kridartham iti capare, devasyaisa svabhavo 'yam aptakamasya ka sprha. "Some say that He created the world for His enjoyment and others say for His play. That is simply His nature. He is, after all, Self-satisfied - which desires has He left to fulfill?" and (1.16): anadimayaya supto yada jivah prabudhyate, ajam anidram asvapnam advaitam budhyate tada - "When the living entity, who is sleeping the beginningless slumber of illusion, awakens, he realises the unborn, unsleeping, undreaming non-dual truth." [Neither of these citations are in the Mandukya Upanisad. Their source is currently unknown. - Ed.] Sri Jiva Gosvami writes in his Paramatma-sandarbha (46): tadevam ananta eva jivakhyas tatasthah saktayah. tatra tasam vargadvayam. eko vargo 'nadita eva bhagavadunmukhah anyas tvanadita eva bhagavatparanmukhah. svabhavatas tadiyajñanabhavat tadiyajñanabhavac ca. "There are innumerable spirit souls and they are the marginal potency of God. There are two classes of them: one class is favorable to God from beginningless time, and the other class is turned away from God from beginningless time. The first class is naturally full of knowledge and the other is without knowledge." In the Caitanya-caritamrta, (Antya, 3,72-74): prabhu kahe sab jiva mukti yabe pabe ei to brahmanda tabe sab sunya habe haridasa bale 'tomara yavat martye sthiti tavat sthavara jangama sarva jivajati sab mukti kari tumi vaikunthe pathaibe suksma jive punah karma udbuddha karibe sei jiva habe iha sthavara jangama tahate bharibe brahmanda yena purva sama Mahaprabhu said: "If all the conditioned souls would attain liberation the world would become empty." Haridasa replied: "As long as You are in this mortal world You will liberate all the mobile and immobile creatures and send them to Vaikuntha. Then You will again engage subtle (dormant, new) living entities in further fruitive activities, and these mobile and immobile living entities will fill the world up like before" This is in line with Visnu-dharmottara Purana (1.81.12): ekaikasmin nare muktim kalpe kalpe gate dvija abhavisyajjagac chunyam kalasyader abhavatah "Because time has no beginning, the world would be empty by now if only one person per kalpa had been liberated." Markandeya answers (1.81.13-14): jivasyanyasya sargena nare muktim upagate acintyasaktir bhagavan jagat purayate sada brahmana saha mucyante brahmalokam upagatah srjyante ca mahakalpe tadvidhas capare janah "When someone is liberated, the Supreme Lord, who has inconceivable potency, creates another jiva and and thus always keeps the world full. Those who attain Brahmaloka become liberated along with Brahma. Then, in the next kalpa, the Lord creates similar beings." Sri Jiva says in the Priti-sandarbha (1): atha jivas ca tadiyo 'pi tajjñana-samsargabhava-yuktatvena tanmayaparabhutah san natmasvarupajñanalopan mayakalpitopadhyavesac canadisamsaraduhkena sambadhyate iti paramatmasandarbhadav eva nirupitam asti. paramatmavaibhavaganane ca tattatasthasaktirupanam cidekarasanam apy anadiparatattvajñanasamsargabhavamayatadvaimukhyalabdhacchidraya tanmayayavrtasvasvarupajñananam tayaiva sattvarajastamomaye jade pradhane racitatmabhavanam jivanam samsaraduhkam ca jñapitam. "Although the jiva is part of the Lord, he is without knowledge of Him and this deficiency has no beginning. Because of this he is covered by maya. Thus he is united with the beginningless material miseries because his knowledge of his svarupa is covered and he is absorbed in false designations. From beginningless time he is bereft of knowledge of the Supreme truth and thus he has attained the fault of aversion towards God, whose maya covers over his knowledge of his constitutional position and fills him with feelings created by maya, consisting of sattva, rajas, and tamas. This was explained in the Paramatma-sandarbha (47): tatparanmukhatva-dosena labdha-chidraya mayaya paribhutah, where labdha, the attainment, must be considered without time sequence, anadi as stated above. In the Bhakti-sandarbha (120) Jiva quotes from the Vasanabhasya: mukta api prapadyante punah samsaravasanam yady acintyamahasaktau bhagavaty aparadhinah "Offenders to the Lord will again get material desires, even if they are liberated souls." Here the word punah means 'again', which proves that this verse does not apply to eternally liberated souls who fall from the spiritual world. The aparadhis (offenders) mentioned here are the mayavadis that are described in Srimad Bhagavata (10.2.32): aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adho 'nadrtayusmadanghrayah. But this does not count for the bhaktas, as is described in the next verse (10.2.33): tatha na te madhava tavakah kvacid, bhrasyanti margat tvayi baddha-sauhrdah. Srila Jiva Gosvami comments (Bhakti-sandarbha, 120): yatha purve arudhaparamapadatvavasthato 'pi bhrasyanti, tatha tavaka margat sadhanavasthato 'pi na bhrasyanti, kimuta mrgyat tvatta ityarthah. Mayavadis fall down even from the stage of perfection, but even in the stage of sadhana Your devotees do not fall down, what to speak of after attaining You?" According to Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti's commentary on Srimad Bhagavata (3.7.10): tatra bhagavatah prsthasthitaya anadyavidyaya tamahsvarupaya anadivaimukhyarupabhagavatprstha-sthanam jivanam jñanam yal lupyate tasya na vastutvam karanam napi prayojanam kim apy asti. "Ignorance, which is beginningless, is situated on the Lord's back. She covers the knowledge of the jivas who are situated on the Lord's back and are non-devotees. Their non-devotion is anadi. There is no real reason or purpose for their knowledge being covered." Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti's commentary on Srimad Bhagavata (10.87.32) also shows no jivas that have fallen from the spiritual world: te ca meghopamaya avidyaya avrta baddhajiva eke anye bhaktimajjñanena tadavaranonmukta muktajivah anye kevalaya pradhanibhutaya va bhaktya tadavaranonmocitaprapitacidanandamayabhajanopayogisarirah siddhabhakta anye avidyayogarahita eva nityaparsada iti caturvidhah "There are four types of jivas: 1. baddha - those under the influence of the avidya potency. 2. mukta - those liberated from the covering of avidya through bhakti, but who have not yet attained a spiritual body. These are also called jivanmuktas or liberated while living in the material body. 3. siddha - those who have attained a siddha-deha on the strength of bhakti. These are called baddha-muktas or those liberated after being in bondage. 4. nitya-parsadas - those eternally free from contact with ignorance. They never become conditioned, and are also called nitya-siddhas or nitya-muktas." In his comment on Bhagavad-gita (13.20) Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti declares that the conditioning of the conditioned souls is beginningless: mayajivayor api macchaktitvena anaditvat tayoh samsleso 'py anadir iti bhavah. "Illusion and the conditioned souls are both My energies. They are both beginningless and they have been interconnected since beginningless time as well." The word dvesa in Bhagavad-gita (7.27) does not mean envy of Krsna, for you cannot be envious of someone you don't know. In the Brhad-bhagavatamrta Sarupa calls himself a newcomer, nutna (2.6.359): dure 'stu tavad varteyam tatra nityanivasinam, na tisthed anusandhanam nutnanam madrsam api, and later (2.6.366): tallokasya svabhavo 'yam krsnasangam vinapi yat, bhavet tatraiva tisthasa na cikirsa ca kasyacit. "Nobody desires to leave Goloka." Assuming that previously fallen jivas who return to the spiritual world are superior to those who have stayed, because they are shocked by their experience, is not just a speculation, but also an offence to the nitya-muktas. This presupposes that it is better to fall down than to stay and that the 'returners' can anyway remember their ordeal in the material world when they return. That would make devotion out of fear of punishment greater than spontaneous loving devotion, and would make the spiritual world into a concentration-camp. Regarding free will, this is gradually given up in the course of surrender. A siddha-bhakta will never misuse this free will because his surrender is irreversible. When the sadhana-siddha jiva attains the spiritual world he remembers nothing of the material world, for his subtle body has been dissolved through the transcendental process of bhakti. Regarding the fall of Jaya and Vijaya: The feeling of enmity they acquired for the Lord was not because of the Kumaras' curse, but by the will of the Lord. Even so, the Lord did not consider them His enemies. He just wanted to enjoy fighting with them. One should not think that Jaya and Vijaya chose to become the Lord's enemies so that they could finish the curse quickly, because great devotees like them do not desire even salokya mukti without bhakti. And with bhakti they are willing even to go to hell (Bhag. 3.15.48: natyantikam viganayanty ...) They wanted to please the Lord by fighting with Him, but they did not literally choose to become the Lord's enemies so that they could give pleasure to Him. Such a desire is undevotional. Srila Jiva Gosvami further says that their inimical feelings were not real but feigned (abhasa). They entered into demoniac bodies but remained untouched within. As far as Citraketu is concerned, although he offended mother Parvati, he did not fall into material life. Even in a demon's body, as Vrtrasura, he recited wonderful prayers to the Lord. In conclusion: there is no scriptural evidence for the jivas' falling from the spiritual sky. It is not supported by the acaryas, not by our acaryas, nor by those of any other sampradaya. The spiritual world would not be Vaikuntha, the fearless abode, nor would it be free from maya. 19) Loud japa is not better than mental japa. In the Haribhakti-vilasa the Narasimha Purana and Yajñavalkya are cited (17.155-159): trividho japayajñah syat tasya bhedan nibodhata vacikasca upamsusca manasasca tridha matah ... mantram uccarayed vyaktam japayajñah sa vacikah ... kiñcicchabdam svayam vidyad upamsuh sa japah smrtah ... upamsuyuktasya tasmacchataguno bhavet sahasro manasah prokto yasmad dhyanasamo hi sah "There are three kinds of japa - vocal, muttering and mental. Loud chanting of the mantra is called vocal japa, whispering is called upamsu and mental chanting is called manasika japa. Whispering is a hundred times better than loud japa and mental chanting is a thousand times better. This is equal to meditation." 20) There is no santa-rasa in Vraja; the animals and non-moving species are not in santa rasa. Mahaprabhu proclaims in Caitanya-caritamrta that He makes the three worlds dance in four rasas (cari bhava bhakti diya nacaimu bhuvana), not in five. Hantayam adrir abala haridasa varyah (Bhag. 10.21.18) confirms that mountains like Giriraja are in dasya-rasa. The cows in Vraja are in vatsalya-rasa (see the Bhagavata Canto 10, Chapter 13). The statement vamsi priyasakhi from the Brahma-samhita prove that even the flute is in madhura-rasa. 21) Regular devotees are not addressed with prabhu. eka mahaprabhu, ara prabhu dui jana (C.C.): "There is only one Mahaprabhu and there are two prabhus (Nitai and Advaita)." Of course, great acaryas or eternal associates of the Lord are sometimes called prabhu, but this title has never been used for ordinary devotees." So, you folks that want to take that anti-siddha pranali stance are going to have to face the facts at some point that you are in opposition to the above mentioned authorities. As jijaji says: PEACE NOW
  8. You should get a trademark on your name, jijaji, then nobody can challenge your right to use it. Of, coures, you'll have to do a patent search first and then fill out all of the paperwork and pay the exorbitant fees. Heck, you may as well register it as a pen name with the Library of Congress, while you're at it.
  9. Just an addendum to the last post: Some of those here may have the impression that Jagat, Premananda, jijaji, and others, including me, have a problem w/Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, when in actuality it is a certain percentage of his followers we have issues with. I think the imitation of the guru syndrome is what came into play over the years, while he was still on the planet and then after his departure. In trying to emulate all of his behavior, some of his followers became just fanatical rather than saintly. Had they simply tried to elevate themselves gradually and at their own individual paces, then perhaps that situation would not have arisen. As Jagat pointed out on the VNN forums a while ago, the competition for followers between rival religious sects is a very real fact of life. As much as some would like to sweep that under the 'proverbial rug', it is nonetheless always looming there in the background. We can be civil in the battle, or we can choose to be belligerent and rude. I think it is not so much a matter of one side trying to convince the other on certain issues as it is one of trying to convince potential followers waiting in the wings to gravitate towards one's own position.
  10. It is interesting how some in the Vaishnava community are interested in uncovering the truth about various matters, whereas many others really are not all that interested and are willing to accept the version they have been schooled in prima facie. That is a surprising fact, considering how they claim to want the darkness of their ignorance dispelled by the torch of knowledge. Keep them coming, Jagat!
  11. JNDas: For what its worth: The Gita Press English edition of Ramayana describes at length of a sage that Ramachandra visits, who prepares a feast of all kinds of animal flesh. I believe they have never been an anti-Hindu publisher.
  12. JNDas: For what its worth: The Gita Press English edition of Ramayana describes at length of a sage that Ramachandra visits, who prepares a feast of all kinds of animal flesh. I believe they have never been an anti-Hindu publisher.
  13. JNDas: For what its worth: The Gita Press English edition of Ramayana describes at length of a sage that Ramachandra visits, who prepares a feast of all kinds of animal flesh. I believe they have never been an anti-Hindu publisher.
  14. Re: The Govinda recording w/George Harrison and Yamuna. With all due respect to the other singers on the track, it would have been so much better if they only sang on refrains and had let Yamuna do more a capella singing.
  15. "I'm a million miles away, but at the same time I'm right here inside your picture frame." - Voodoo Chile Could it be: That Jimi Hendrix was a reincarnated disciple of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur?
  16. Point taken, Puru. My drawing such a parallel was not intended to imply that we should confuse mundane relationships (let alone erotic ones) between humans with eternal sambandhas. It was only a musing due to the various controversies that abound in various religions over basic morality. There is this tendency to keep certain things 'in the closet' so to speak. That is not always the most therapeutic attitiude, however. Eastern traditions are much more ready to acknowledge the erotic components of our psyches, whereas Western traditions generally are in a state of denial. [This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 07-09-2001).] [This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 07-09-2001).]
  17. First of all, why does the temple need to be near the people? Isn't that what shonkirton was designed for, to reach the people? Let's face it, we live in an omnivorous world, and that is not likely to change anytime soon. So, we can either deal with that or freak out or run for the hills. Personally, I think the Micky D's are unsightly (although I would never tell my cousin that to his face). If you stand out on our street and look directly south you can see the golden arches (yuck!). Besides, even many meat eaters turn up their nose in disgust at the badly prepared and unhealthy fare to be found in those places. Our best bet is that they are forced to close down by people just discontinuing their patronage out of simply getting tired of their mediocre product. Heck, I bet more than half the parents that go there are just there for the free toys that they hand out with meals. Oh, well, Kali Yuga... [This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 07-09-2001).]
  18. First of all, why does the temple need to be near the people? Isn't that what shonkirton was designed for, to reach the people? Let's face it, we live in an omnivorous world, and that is not likely to change anytime soon. So, we can either deal with that or freak out or run for the hills. Personally, I think the Micky D's are unsightly (although I would never tell my cousin that to his face). If you stand out on our street and look directly south you can see the golden arches (yuck!). Besides, even many meat eaters turn up their nose in disgust at the badly prepared and unhealthy fare to be found in those places. Our best bet is that they are forced to close down by people just discontinuing their patronage out of simply getting tired of their mediocre product. Heck, I bet more than half the parents that go there are just there for the free toys that they hand out with meals. Oh, well, Kali Yuga... [This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 07-09-2001).]
  19. Get real, people! Instead of wasting your time fighting city hall, why not come up with a workable plan to move the temple to the countryside and away from all of the restaurants?
  20. Get real, people! Instead of wasting your time fighting city hall, why not come up with a workable plan to move the temple to the countryside and away from all of the restaurants?
  21. Are they actually slaughtering cows in the restaurant there? I'll have to get my cousin that works in their corporate offices to look into the matter - NOT!
  22. Are they actually slaughtering cows in the restaurant there? I'll have to get my cousin that works in their corporate offices to look into the matter - NOT!
  23. Very fascinating, Jagat. The bantering w/Puru Das is entertaining as well. This has instantly become one of my favorite threads here. I remember a thread on VNN that had started up awhile back about the svakiya v.s. parakiya question, but nobody at that time had seriously pursued the issue. I find a striking parallel in this five hundred year old debate in the sexual mores of both Western and Eastern societies. Since I am more familiar w/the European & American side of things, I’ll stick to our hemisphere. On the one hand you have the religious right, who had their heyday in the Victorian period, and their position that the act of coitus is inherently tainted by sin and must be restricted as far as practicable. On the other hand you have the more liberal position that sexual behavior is entirely natural and that it is only when there is an imbalance somewhere that it degenerates into aberrant forms. The institution of marriage has obviously functioned as a sort of safety valve to urge people to be monogamous via peer pressure. However, for all practical purposes, it has not been all that effective in achieving that purpose. A high percentage of people sneak around nonetheless and have various illicit affairs, irregardless of their level of religiosity. In a perfect world, the ideal of monogamy might stand a chance, but then there is the reality: We do not live in a perfect world. There are dysfunctional families and incestuous relationships and patterns of abuse that propagate from one generation to the next. There are rapists and fetishists and all varieties of deviant persons running amok, and that has been true throughout recorded history. So, where does that leave us? My apologies for this little segue, but the old neurons started to fire and my compulsion to write overwhelmed me.
  24. Thanks, Random. I kept doing searches under George Harrison. I guess that was the problem.
  25. Thanks for the URL, Jagat. It is not clear how to purchase the record from that site. Any hints would be greatly appreciated. Anyone seen Moulin Rouge yet? It did not dawn on me til near the end that Nicole Kidman's character Satine is patterned after Sati from the Puranas. Also, she is ready to sacrifice herself for the leading man just as Sati did for Mahadev. I thought that although it was clever overall, it was a little too choppy in spots. How about that elephant house she lives in? I would like to convert our little raised ranch into one, but I do not think the Village here would be all that receptive.
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