ksbh

Guruvani has taken the correct stance. And I have to say that I agree with Guruvani that letters are for specific people and cannot be taken generically.

Notice how these letters from the sixties don't conform to what Srila Prabhupada wrote in his books?

 

The letters cannot be taken as final siddhanta as Srila Prabhupada was nurturing neophytes in his letters and many times wrote a simplified version of things that the conditioned minds of the neophytes could grasp easier than the sophisticated siddhanta of the shastra.

 

The books are the shastra we ultimately have to base the philosophy on.

We can't create a new Gaudiya siddhanta from some letters to a few neophyte ISKCON devotees who were grappling with all sorts of limitations in understanding the full-fledged Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

The letters are pablum for neophytes.

 

We have to find the true siddhanta in shastra.

That is the way I see it too.

The way I understand it is that if you leave the process for any of these material reasons (including guru falldown) then that is insincerity (A material excuse to give up KC). Sincerity is always looking for krishna no matter what happens, (political, social etc)

So you don't believe in the fact that by Krishna's mercy, one finds a guru? That's from the Sastra, by the way. If he happens to find a wrong guru or unqualified guru, it's partly his fault for not being sincere enough.

I have to agree with Vijay on this point. I don't see his reasoning as 'very tired rationalization for bad leadership'. Can't just blame the fallen guru. If it's simply the Guru's fault, how come Krishna lead the person to that guru?

In the first paragraph, you've made a blanket generalization, and have also re-repeated a very tired rationalization for bad leadership.

 

In the second, you contradict what you said in the first.

Dear Visnu prabhu,

I already apologized for the use of inappropriate language (to BG prabhu). I did not extend that apology to you since my original post was directed at BG. However, if you've been offended in any way, please accept my apology.

Regarding the Spiritual master's body, I'm not challenging the verdict of the Sastra. I simply asked you a question. You seem to believe that a Spiritual Master should never be overcome by disease and if he is, he is not bonafide. I therefore repeat my question- if the Spiritual Master's body is spiritual and therefore 'must' never exhibit sympoms of disease, how come his body exhibits signs of aging?

Using your logic, I must conclude that Srila Prabhupada was 'not' bonafide because he exhibited signs of aging as well as suffered 'heart attacks' a few times.

Dear ksbh prabhu

 

If you recall, it was YOU who stated (and I quote):

 

"What a load of nonsense. Typical ritvik crap."

 

I simply REPRODUCED YOUR four-letter word above, which was deemed inappropriate language by the moderator, hence he changed it to ****

 

Your understanding of a spiritual master's body being material is unfortunate, for Srila Prabhupada states:

 

"The spiritual master, or acarya, is always situated in the spiritual status of life. Birth, death, old age and disease do not affect him. According to the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, therefore, after the disappearance of an acarya, his body is never burnt to ashes, for it is a spiritual body. The spiritual body is always unaffected by material conditions."

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.4.20)

I agree that if it comes from Srila Prabhupada's books, we should adopt it.

If everyone remains blind and silent as suggested by some of the posters here, then we will all be wearing Christian robes and chanting the mahamantra in English while attending our choice of one of seven interfaith churches of God (as instructed by Kirtanananda).

LOL! That's funny. Strange that he would suggest something like that.

I stand corrected, please accept my apology for the harsh language and lack of courtesy.

In another post, you claim that ISKCON has degraded after the departure of Srila Prabhupada. I'm not surprised you see it that way ... If you adopt the attitude of the common fly, you'll only find the rotten things because that is what you're looking for. ISKCON has done many wonderful things in the last 30 years. I've personally seen scores of people take up Krsna Consciousness. Many more temples have been built giving people a chance to understand Krsna Consciousness. I've seen vidoes of Chinese devotees chanting Hare Krsna. How is it that you don't see any of that? If you wish to remain blind to all of this and continue your blasphemy of senior devotees for very weak reasons, you cannot be convinced.

When Haridas Thakur was beaten in 21 market places, Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took those beatings on his own back. Please study these histories before giving your sentimental views.

 

You say Lord Caitanya didn't protect Haridas Thakur, but the actual story is Caitanya took the beatings on his own back, protecting Haridas from any harm at all. This is how the Lord protects his devotees.

 

Now please reflect on your comments: "Get some intelligence!" and "your foolish claim". You do not know what the scriptures say, but you were quick to insult me. Now that you know the real story is opposite to what you said, are you ready to call yourself foolish and start looking for some intelligence?

Gopal prabhu,

Great post, very eloquently written. Certain instructions are meant for certain people. We should be careful to reference conversations of Srila Prabhupada with other people. In a book that Giriraj Maharaj wrote, he described a conversation that Srila Prabhupada had with a young American who had trouble understanding why chanting was so special if all service to Krsna was transcendental. He argued that it shouldn't matter if he didn't chant as long as he was engaged in other service. They went back and forth and finally Prabhupada said to him "Chant your 16 rounds, have prasadam and sleep all day, I have no objection" *(not the exact quote but words to that effect). Imagine if we were to take that line and claim that all we need to do is chant 16 rounds and we can sleep all day!

How does all that figure in situations where we see eternal parshadas like Rupa and Sanatan Goswami who are eternal devotees but who fell down from Brahminical culture and dined with and associated closely with Muslims?

We see examples of many great pure devotees, even parshadas who appear to fall into maya and do all sorts of material things?

 

How many great devotees and parshadas have appeared in this world as materialists, meat-eaters and karmis?

What about Bhaktivinode? What about his having been Christian at one point and into brahmoism at another time?

 

The extreme fanatical use of certain things Srila Prabhupada said to certain persons for certain reasons cannot be used to undo what he wrote in his books about apparent falldowns of devotees.

 

There are scriptural references that seem to contradict what Srila Prabhupada said in this conversation to this Hindu gentleman.

 

Should I post scripture to explain my point?

Let's take a broader more comprehensive look at everything in the books of Srila Prabhupada about devotees who fall down.

 

Let's not let this one statement in some conversation eclipse everything in the books of Srila Prabhupada about fallen devotees.

For someone with a username 'Visnu', I certainly expected more understanding of spiritual subjects and a demonstration of spiritual principles (trnad api sunicena ... if that rings a bell!)

Anyways, since you've asked me stop talking whatever the **** mean, tell me dear Visnu, why does the Spiritual Master's body show signs of 'aging' if it is a spiritual body?

And please 'read' and attempt to 'understand' some of the posts other devotees have posted, especially Kulapavana and Audarya prabhu's posts. Will give you some understanding.

"The spiritual master, or acarya, is always situated in the spiritual status of life. Birth, death, old age and disease do not affect him. According to the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, therefore, after the disappearance of an acarya, his body is never burnt to ashes, for it is a spiritual body. The spiritual body is always unaffected by material conditions." (SB 10.4.20, purport)

 

Yes, you should really stop talking **** Mr ksbh.

What a load of nonsense. Typical ritvik ****.

What is so strange about some great personalities suffering from diseases? They are in a material body, so diseases are sometimes inevitable.

As regards your foolish claim that these great devotees are not bonafide because Krishna did not protect them, well then Haridas Thakur must have been a really fallen person because Mahaprabhu didn't protect him when he was being beaten and dragged through the market place. Get some intelligence!

The following quote should help keep a full stop for all sentimental worship of gurus:

 

"A Spiritual Master must be liberated. It does not matter if he has come from Krishna Loka or he is liberated from here. But he must be liberated." - Tuesday, June 10, 1969, Letter to Mukunda.

 

So now you have got only one option: to believe all the ISKCON gurus are liberated. But... In our parampara there is no history of gurus dying from terrible diseases like cancer, or of dying in violent car accidents, but in ISKCON one after another the gurus are suffering from cancer, hepatitis, getting in car crash, being attacked with weapons, etc. Krishna protects his sincere devotees like Prahlada, he doesn't inflict them with cancer and aids (like GBC member and proposed women guru Malati). Krishna doesn't make "Krishnapada" have to amputate his leg before dying of cancer like Bhakti Tirtha Swami (who also supported homosexual marriages). Krishna doesn't make "Vishnupada" have a nervous breakdown like Harikesh, who ran off with 5 million dollars and a mansion in the Rivieras.

 

Most of the present ISKCON leadership such as Bhakti Tirtha Swami, Devamrita Swami, Radhanatha Swami, Umapati Swami, Bhaktisiddhanta Swami, Malati, Kuladri (ex-swami), etc. were all Kirtanananda followers who left ISKCON and followed Kirtanananda's teachings for years. Devamrita Swami was dressed in the Christian robes saying Kirtanananda was a pure devotee as late as 1994. Malati was a female sannyasi under Kirtanananda in the 1990's, who later became a drug addict, was infected with AIDS and is now a GBC. All of these deviants have snuck back within ISKCON and are now GBC leaders and Gurus.