bija

Most spiritualists who have encountered a 'dark night of the soul' at least once or twice in their lives Krsna prabhu, have knelt in prayer. Those times are saturated in a painful mercy:cool:. Lord Krsna is deeply touched by these heart prayers it seems. And he answers them often very quickly. If we are ready and cry for a teacher - he will come! Oneday maybe others will glimpse such graces in the hearts of those around them. That will be the - happy day! Oh happy day! When Guru washed... Oh how he washed... he washed some dust away... I guess if we had epiphany everyday we would not be practical...

You should stay away from it cbrahma, in my humble opinion. I have noticed one essential so-called flaw in my psychology cbrahma: idealist! It seems in this material world the ideal will always be frustrated. But on a positive outlook, where does that ideal originate from in many spiritualists? Maybe maturing in that quality of idealism (in wisdom as Theist says), the quality can be visionary and progressive....even if we are pushing a cart up a hills most of our lives:cool:. What concerns me is falldown - Here is some writing from Sri-Bhaktirasmrta-sindhu-bindu, plus commentary. If we do not understand these things by buddhi yoga, it can lead to grave offence as suggested in your above post, and loss of faith in the process. Presently I have not lost faith in the process - by the force of some miracle within. In my realization the above scripture verses should never be used to justify vaisnava fanatic adoration, but must be studied deeply to understand the purport. Must be realized, or else all scripture becomes a basis for neophyte inadequacy. Personally my being introduced to these mananagerial, sectarian, and institutional concerns presents a huge learning curve - and is a dangerous place to be. So easlily, falldown could happen. There are several reasons why I am typing this experience on the net: 1. I have no one to discuss these things with here presently. 2. It helps me process the experience by venting it. 3. I wish to leave a footprint of this experience on the net for future reference, to all aspiring for simple service. 4. The experience of impersonal vaisnaivism has hurt me, and I wish to speak against it. Ofcourse within my heart I could easily attack and steam out the hurt. But this will be of no benefit to anyone - so the opportunity for growth extends itself instead. All humans have feelings, even as offenders we have feeling. This is the essence of vaisnavism - softness of heart. Bhakti will only reside in a softened throne. Where politics has first priority, the flow of bhakti will stifle.

Good one Krsna...jaya:)

Either way the amount of power a diksa guru has over his disciples is despotic by cbrahma This has been seen in the history of Hare Krsna movement in the west. And often decisions are made from a top down system. Where the small become objects for a bigger purpose. Sadly. I think your description here is the classic distortion that a diksa/disciple relation can be (and has been). When infact if the Guru is reasonably mature in the subtleties of spiritual life the outcome for the disciple could be much more postive. ie - that the disciple gains the ability to think and process clearly using buddhi - this must be the objective of the Guru. To bring the disciple to awareness of buddhi yoga (bhakti yoga). As it Is Gita says there is no difference between Buddhi Yoga and Bhakti Yoga. The perfect example of this is the Guru/disciple relationship between Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada and Srila Prabhuapada. Infact it seems that Srila Prabhupada was on occasions criticized by others for his clear mind and freedom in implementing his Guru's intstruction. This also brings to the forefront the dangers of taking shelter from someone who does not have the necessary qualifications. Maybe if that case did arise a good siksa guru may be of benefit if the diksa guru is humble enough to acknowledge his inadequacy..such humility may be rare in some cases...where tempraments of people who rise to position often have inbuilt competitive natures. Humility seems to be the essential key covering all aspects of spiritual life, especially the honesty to admit our own adhikari. An honesty many of us seem to lack on many occasions. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread...

Considering cbrahma's recommendation, what is the outcome if these considerations are neglected? Firstly I would say that offences could develop, and secondly division could deepen. Is it wiser to be pragmatic and serve seperately, as was suggested by Iskcon management? Or does this impinge on the universal quality of devotional service? Where to find balance? I know what the heart longs for!

Infact it could simply be the cold hard reality that while still in this material climate, certain vaisnava sangha's and devotees may not have the possibility for close intimacy. The beginner in Krsna consciousness may not be aware of these complexities until he matures over time. But why should he harden - even if wiser? The heart is much bigger than all this - and for this reason of the heart and its qualities, the saying of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada, that institution can be a dam and dyke blocking the flow of a bonafide spiritual movement may ring true. So above all the heart must be given highest priority I feel, even with day to day dealings one with another on the most basic levels. Thank you for allowing me the space to process these thoughts and feelings. It is always helpful to hear from another cbrahma - thx!

Actually there are cases where Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada gave diksha without the formal fire sacrifice ceremony.

This is one of the clearest and best posts I have seen from you cbrahma. The points you bring out here are very essential vaisnava etiquette, and such concerns are on the forefront of leaders minds in institutional structures and management. The disciple should also be conscious of these things in his dealings with other vaisnava's and groups. Considering Gaudiya Vaisnava's are personalists my argument is that devotees should not be treated impersonally, and categorized in a box of possible outcomes and behaviours, but instead as these challenges arise in vaisnava communities personalities should be treated personally and not as outcomes. My reflection on the above circumstance is that things could have been done by both parties better. And I fully agree with you - Guru's instructions etc to a disciple are a very personal matter and should not be forced upon or demanded of others in a different Guru/disciple relationship. Thank you for your balanced and thoughtful post in this regard cbrahma, it is enlightening for me.

Hermit he shall do Theist. One devotee in the lecture expressed that 'Iskcon will be the movement to save the whole world'. I guess we can only pray that management sees the light, to bring that universal dream alive again. I guess we live in an imperfect world and cant expect too much. It breaks the heart though, because we all love Sri Caitanya's movement of mercy so much since youth (many of us anyway). And that love must extend to all of us imperfect devotees. A good lesson for tolerance and humility I guess.

Where he lives there is no other Vaisnava sangha. The next closest is 33 hrs drive away. After some years of occasionally seeking shelter and feeling coldness from management (not all devotees) - yesterday he sent a formal letter to management that he will no longer seek Iskcon's shelter. The conclusion was - 'if no intimate association is possible, why bother?' Ofcourse the institution will justify its own actions. He is wiser now.

The way I see it diksha is a very personal and sacred matter between Nityananda Prabhu's representative and a soul seeking that mercy. Sacred ground! It is very hurtful when that sacred ground is trampled on.

Some years ago a senior devotee (a leader) in a lecture demeaned another devotees diksha initiation by saying 'Iskcon's initiation procedure is not such a cheap thing!' The mood of the devotee who was critical was almost laughing at the other devotees diksha. Almost like the other devotee was a fool. The procedure in the non-iskcon group was very different in some ways, with less demands - but by the Guru's grace and teaching the disciple now chants steadily and follows regs. The Iskcon teacher was critical that the devotee only had to chant minimal Holy Names per day initially to receive shelter with minimal regs. (this was indirectly suggested in the lecture) The lecture was a "only take siksa in Iskcon lecture' to pre-warn the devotees that this man with the cheap diksha may come for service. The idea of the lecture was to warn others of potential divergence and dis-harmony. The institutional structure and management expressed they did not really want such a devotee within their walls. And if he came they would tolerate but no intimate association would be offered on deeper levels. Very sad experience. Should institutional concerns be more important than respect for sacred diksha? How offensive is it really, to criticize the sacred diksha relationship between Guru and disciple? On that basis of institutional concerns? And what are the consequences of such criticisms for the speaker and those who heard?

That is a wonderful testimony of Srila Prabhupada's mission and grace. Thank you Theist. I love stories like this.

aawww ancient! - Krsna can express himself as he likes:) *his posts always prick the conscience within my lead heart - this heart would make a good anchor for a ship...sinking straight to the bottom - aah me hearty!

An anga of bhajan from Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu Go (cows) In the Gautamiya Tantra the following is said regarding the glories of the cow: gavam kanduyanam kuryat gograsam gau pradaksinam gosu nityam prasannasu gopala pi prasidati The worship of the cow is accomplished by gently scratching her limbs, by offering her a mouthful of green grass, and by circumambulating her. By pleasing the cow, Sri Gopala also becomes pleased. -Anyone who has worked at a dairy milking cows knows how much a sweet jersey with big eye-lashes loves a good old scratch on its hind legs - as its nectar milk is offered in service. Devotional service is easy to perform She will never forget you!

to quote an acarya: "All spiritual practice must be enhanced by the kirtan discipline." What will that kirtan discipline bring about? The desire of Lord Caitanya - an inner reformation of character, unfolding to true character (spirit self) - and a social spiritual reformation of love of God. But first the work always begins within. It seems from Srila Prabhupada's books to be very clear, that 'material solutions are no solutions.' Only the internal reality can bring about a Krsna-ization of inert dull matter, transforming it into spiritual substance. Dull matter cannot create consciousness. By Krsna consciousness the whole atmosphere can become Vaikuntha where service is spontaneous - and the well being of the other is a topmost grace ( a service prominent in the heart). Very different to 'fear' based manipulation of dull matter and politics. (please forgive my ramblings online)

If we neglect the internal heart reformation....how can we expect change or at the most others to follow? I hear the sound of drums on a melody I hear the sound of drums Well, singing the names above in the city Yeah, revolution for fun I feel the time has come like a remody I feel the time has come Were shaking the spear of love in the city Yeah, I hear the sound of drums Yeah, can you feel the love for me, yeah yeah I feel the time has come I hear the sound of drums I hear the sound of drums on a melody, Calling me to return Well, I laugh and catch the sun cause its gonna be revolution for fun Yeah, can you feel the love for me, yeah yeah I feel the time has come I hear the sound of drums..oh oohh... Well, I feel the time has come with the melody I see the golden one Well, Im not the only one with the remedy Im not the only one I feel the time has come I hear the sound of drums:cool: buddhi yoga! will promote free speech (realized responsible devotees)! we are not robots with no heart! <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IisLQinkAwU&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="355" width="425">

admin just deleted my pic of the famous aussie icon - the meat pie with sauuuce - so here is a not so crass edit - krsna and lsd! strange days indeed! *sorry about that admin...must be an aussie insensibility thing;)

....nothing worth purchasing and possessing. by theist Yep to that!

http://www.nitaisbookstore.com/Kapoor.html His books are nectar Kula. I have only read his book 'Sri Caitanya and Raganuga Bhakti'. One section discusses some saints...nectar for sure!

Was watching a tv documentary the other night about the water-men or ferry-men... oh krsna I can't remember the name... They used to blow up things...(in the documentary one member said 'we finally realized violence does not work') It had some old footage of Tim Leary after these post-men broke him out of jail... the weather-men? The 60's and 70's culture interested me most of my life since childhood... my birth date is 6-9-69 ....odd flower child! To be honest these days I find 2008 more interesting, when I went to the Haight most people seemed miserable. But a postive outcome of this flawed interest was introduction to Sri Krsna. This video is worth watching Fierce Grace - click here Raam Daas talks about his experience of stroke, his recovery...and how he did not recall God during the stroke...its very humble video. The video really brings home the importance of constant rememberance, and actually confirmed in my heart how Srila Prabhupada's message is well founded. Some years ago I did an 'aged care course' at a TAFE College, this video also has some good insights in that regard. Very interesting.

Yeah and it sounds like if you are interested in the oneness university you will lose all your money. by ancient They might have discount for a family of five or over - love a bargain:crazy2: Anyhow here is a video from the University... Bhagavan's bio: Bhagavan was born on the 7th of March 1949 in the town of Natham, North Arcot District in the state of Tamil Nadu, South India. He was a very unusual child, always introspective and only concerned about how to give mankind total freedom. Today, we recognize Sri Bhagavan and his partner Amma as Divine Avatars, very rare beings who can give liberation to practically any-body. They take complete responsibility for giving complete enlightenment to all seekers and are not satisfied with giving some nice teachings, temporary states or performing some miracles. When asked “When did this change in consciousness come to you?” Sri Bhagavan replies: There has been no change in my consciousness since I was a little child. I never had a guru. Even as a little child riding on the shoulders of a giant-like servant or sitting under a tree while my friends played, my only concern was humanity’s suffering. I would silently sob, choke and faint, experiencing humanity’s suffering. My body does not have a limitation. The consciousness of my body is limitless and hence it experiences all that man experiences. "My only passion ever since I came into this planet has been to end humanity’s suffering. And I knew to end suffering, mankind needed to enter into an altered state of consciousness. I also knew that man was helpless and it has to be given to him and I decided to give it. "The miracles that Amma and I perform are merely manifestation of the compassion and love we feel for you. It is simply the power of our consciousness that is making this neuro-biological transformation in the brain possible, leading you to enlightenment.” Amma's bio: Sri Amma was born the 15th of August 1954 in the beautiful village Sangham in the state of Andhra Pradesh, South India. She is loved for her wisdom and childlike simplicity. We could say that Bhagavan and Amma are one being in two bodies and both of them can transfer the state of Oneness to any amount of people. Bhagavan is guiding this process while Amma is generating tremendous energy so that the Oneness state will become available for everybody. When asked about healing, Bhagavan often tells people to ask Amma as she will react faster than him since she is an embodiment of Shakti, the feminine divine power. Those who have an inner contact (friendship) with both Bhagavan as well as Amma will get Oneness much easier as there will be harmony of yin and yang within. In the 1980's Sri Amma, Bhagavan, and his friend and disciple from childhood, Shankarji, opened a spiritual school called Jeevashram. The divine phenomenon took birth in July 1989, when suddenly the students began to experience great states of cosmic consciousness. Great miracles became a daily happening in the lives of these students and many of them became like real prophets and mystics. After some time Bhagavan and Amma selected six students as their direct disciples and began their real project--to transfer the Oneness state to mankind. From this humble official beginning in 1991 Sri Bhagavan's Golden Age Movement has today approximately 30-40 millions members from all over the world. This number is increasing daily and many new countries get added every passing year. <embed src=" " type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="355" width="425"> <embed src=" " type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="355" width="425">

wow...10 big ones counts me out. http://www.onenessuniversity.org/oneness/cms/home/ maybe more hope for me to give 'a penny to peter to pay paul'

Just because something exists does not mean it's natural post by theist That's a fair comment Theist. Maybe we should talk about what is natural? And what leads us to the hell of repeated birth and death? You see I have been on that repeated birth and death trip since time immemorial. I have been a beggar, a king, a despot, a deviant, an addict, a millionare, a lover, a thief, a rogue, a naturalist, a philanthropist, a killer, a soldier, a xeno-phobiac, a slave, a free-man, a liar, a priest, a dog, a pig...and other things not fit to mention or air...all things... all things since I chose to turn away...unlimited desires... What is the natural way? I think we both know. How do we attain it is what I am pleading for. Super-soul please! Please grant me that buddhi yoga...union with you!