bija

Here is a question for you. Suppose you are a resident of the King's palace. One day the prince is found missing and all are sent out to find him. You find him but he is in a drunken state, dressed like a derelic and very dirty looking nothing like a prince.

 

 

Have you found the prince or some drunkard?

I am sorry Theist I do not understand your analogy. Maybe you can explain a little more for my dull mind.

I disagree bija. nitya-siddha are themselves servants of the other nitya-siddha's as well as Krsna. They are in a humble position.

Yes ofcourse.

When I use the term nitya-baddha I do not mean that we are eternally condemned. What I mean is our constitution within the tatashta is such that we are dependant upon higher principle. This is why we fell, because we were unaware of our constitutional nature. That is our vulnerability..and why we so desperately need to discover the shelter of hladhini.

We are definately granted the eternally liberated status, once we realize in humility what we are. Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja has gone into great detail about this siddhanta. This is Gaura Tattva. He suggests if we are unaware of that constitution...we will trample. He learnt this from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, who I presume learnt it from Srila Bhaktivinoda.

We, Theist, are satellites, not planets... please refer to Sri Krsna Samhita. That is the secret of our bhajan in the Brahma-Madhava-Caitanya-Bhaktivinoda-Saraswati lineage. They called it 'keeping a distance'.

Your arguments are very intelligent Sarva because you permeate your philosophy with eternal truths. And the readers take to that becuase it is intuited by us all (even if unconsciously) .

But, we are not nitya-siddha sarva...we are servants of such. That is the humble postition. If you water down that key truth, you then water down the subtle nuances of Gaudiya siddhanta. And those subtle nuances are only known through realization - as you well know.

...it is absolutely clear that in this English language book written by Bhaktivinoda Thakura he states EXPLICITELY that souls started off from a neutral position (Brahman). dasi

This neutral position is santa rasa. Krsna is so attractive that even those great souls in santa rasa feel even more bliss perceiving madhurya rasa. As far as I have read Brhad Bhagavatamrta explains this...therefore the four kumaras etc mentioned in Srimad Bhagavatam.

But saying that I am not sure how it is that the original stayi-bhava is inherent. Maybe that is due to the mercy of hladhini potency. I honestly have not read that yet (explicitly yet - but it is mentioned below)... so I dont know whether your statement is right or wrong Dasi. But considering the brahman effulgence is the glow of Goloka the stayi-bhava must be inherent due to hladhini's potency - because we are servants of the highest rasa (Sri Sri Radha-Krsna). I do know that each souls particular stayi-bhava is eternal. And I do know for example, that parental rasa gains deep satisfaction in watching madhurya ras etc. That is revealed in Naam bhajan.

And I do know if we are fully fixed in that potency we will never fall. Guru's etc who have fallen in the past were not yet fixed.

...2. The process of conquering illusion

 

The living entity, bewildered by maya, is crushed again and

again by the miseries of material existence. Becoming exasperated

with these miseries, he may obtain the service of saintly

persons by some great fortune. At that time his faith awakens

towards devotion unto the Supreme Lord as being the exclusive

goal of the scriptures. Alternatively, he may awaken

intense longing for the unparalleled ***sweetness*** of Bhagavan.

At that time, he attains eligibility for bhakti, which is predominated by the pleasuregiving

aspect (hladinî) of the Lord’s internal potency.

Upon the awakening of faith, he first of all takes shelter of

the lotus feet of a spiritual master by accepting harinama initiation

from him. Thereafter, in the association of the spiritual

master and pure Vaisnavas, he obtains an excellent opportunity

to hear the truths of the scriptures. When he begins to perform

kîrtana of the holy names (nama), form (rupa), qualities (guna)

and pastimes (lila of Krsna, the process of conquering maya

begins. This means that his ignorance and the impediments

that obstruct his spiritual progress (anarthas) begin to vanish.

Simultaneously, the pure form of the jîva starts to become clear.

This is the process by which hari-kirtana becomes victorious

within the phenomenal world of matter. By this process, harikîrtana

makes its descent into this illusory world. By performing

hari-kîrtana according to this system, one obtains seven excellent

results. These seven kinds of results are spoken of in Verse

One by the words ceto-darpana-marjanam and so on. Each of

these will now be separately discussed....

http://www.purebhakti.com/resources/ebooks-a-magazines-mainmenu-63/doc_download/69-siksastaka.html

 

Each soul has drawn from its Fountainhead a proportionate share of the attributes and consequently a small proportion of the free will. These souls are naturally located between the chit jagat, and mayik jagat. thakura

The jiva in the tatashta line is potent due to its being of cit (spiritual) substance. Therefore due to that consciousness, its tendency to expand outwardly. But due to its minuteness it can become bewildered by maya.

The soul or jiva is so constructed as to be liable to be enthralled by maya in consequence of want of power when unassisted by the hladini-sakti of the Deity. thakura

Whereas once its moves toward the internal aspect of cit-spirtual energy its becomes stable - one could say its true nature, stayi-bhava. When the jiva becomes stabilised it is said to be fixed.

The marginal jiva which is prone to fall has always had a dim reflection of bliss, therefore it desired to seek brighter bliss. Not realizing that its well being was actually internal. We can see the truth of this in this world, the jiva is always looking outward to satisfy its needs, due to a feeling of incompleteness. But once it discovers its real benefit hankering ceases.

a short reply: *

*funny

Living on borrowed time, Bija, is like a loan your bank gave you which diminished gradually as you spent it buying medicines, clothing, food, and drink in order to maintain your body for quite sometime. And yet the only way you could redeem this debt so you could secure a new loan from your lender bank is to get a loan from another bank. This borrowing and paying never ends. And when we finally die, it`s probably our children/wife/relatives who pay these debts.

Bija, maybe jibbling is a way of increasing the number of messages we post on the board in making it past a thousand messages in just a matter of time to qualify for senior membership.

2,318 posts would have to mean jibble. And not even moderator status...imagine the jibble needed for that:eek2: (just kidding).

Do ya do ya do ya (do ya) wanta jibble....>>>>>>

if all your multi av's (krsnaraja) reach over a thousand...you will reach the fame status of being called 'the great jibster'. or diploma of accomplished jibbling.

Hello,

First off, this is my first post since joining the forum, so an introductory hello to everyone!

Now for my purpose - I am attempting to write a book about religion; focusing on the culture, experiences, and beliefs surrounding all various kinds of religion. I want to write about what people believe, their lifestyles, and what turned them on to religion in the first place. I am currently collecting submissions from people explaining any or all of these things.

I have managed to gather a great deal of submissions from Christians, Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, Jews, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Buddhists, and now I am looking to make contact with more than a few members of the Hindu community. I am hoping that I can work with some of you from this site in order to add some Hindu testimonies to my book so that I can appropriately represent your faith. Please let me know if you have any questions and if you are interested in working with me.

Kind regards,

Mark

 

Please ask some questions?

I was raised Catholic, so had a universal perspective (or better said, an inclination) toward diversity of faith since childhood.

My family (even to this day) was catholic sectarian, seeing their sect as the one true faith. I am different, because I was schooled during the 70's and onwards, after Vatican II council.

So the influence in the new songs (liturgy etc) at church during the 70's was very moving to my childlike heart. In later years (adolescence) I felt inclination toward the east. And left home as a young man to seek buddhism.

Even to this day I greatly admire the lives of people such as Thomas Merton and Bede Griffiths.

I came in contact with Gaudiya Vaisnavism and left the buddhist dreams behind. I would consider my thinking these days to be more aligned with the vaisnava perspective - personalism.

As a young man I was not aware of the all-pervading presence, but was intuitevly seeking that consciousness. So accepting a faith grounded deeply in imminent personalism was very spontaneous for me.

As you would understand, the realizations of personalistic vaisnavism are ongoing for me (within the heart).

Aside from that intuitive knowing that lead me to my deeper self, there was external factors that lead me to hindu culture. The main external factor was a great need to try and find harmony in a discordant world. This was obviously prominent in my thinking due to my catholicism.

I had brief conctact during my 20's with christian protestantism, but found it very sectarian and divided...placing the born again experience and Jesus as the only door to life.

So, at some point I chose to follow my heart...hence Hinduism. I do not consider myself a hindu as such. The Hare Krsna movment was introduced to the west as a cultural movement - therefore you see in it many westerners taking outer forms and expressions. This outer expression eventually became impossible for me (due to my environment in Australia rural), so, I do not consider my aspiration to be hindu culture as such, now.

I have taken the essence of two things - a tradition and its essence and the essence of my being.

This essence of being is what I call my spirituality, and that is not hindu, christian or buddhist. This way of living has opened me up to a deeper universalism of being...where all things have become sacred. The trees, the rivers, the animals...even the darker aspects of this world and the inner psyche...have perspective now.

That is my faith in a nutshell.

If you want more replies to this thread, you may want to transfer it (including my post please) to the spiritual discussions section. I dont think many people read this mareket place forum so much.

No worries Theist, I am probably just speaking jibble anyway. I have plenty of jibble to spare... (sorry to divert the course of the river again)..

http://www.jibble.org/jibblemeaning.php

It seems to be compulsive tendency of mine (jibble).

Years ago Melvin after an NDE things changed for me. Somedays I feel as if I am dead, that I really did die then (in 1994), and this world presently is my own illusion (because I could not let go)....one foot in the door, one foot out...hey;).

Borrowed time for sure mate. The weird thing is, years ago I went back down the tunnel (when it said not my time), and due to not living in conventional time now, I am still going down that freakin' thing. Die to live...

Its a holo (hollow) world:eek3: when all have halos;).

dict.

hollow: 4/ deliberately deceptive

Existence in the impersonal brahma is also within the categoryof non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. Prabhupada

 

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Brahmajyoti is the effulgence from Lord Gaura Krishna's divine body so it's source is directly from Goloka. So Brahmajyoti also pervades the space in which the spiritual planets are floating. The tatashtha (marginal) line which is the original place of all the non-nitya-siddha souls, is the part of the Brahmajyoti between the material and spiritual worlds which mostly does not contain any spiritual planets. Srila Gurudeva. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

How close is our heart to Radha? That will clarify our potential for fall. (we must remember Prabhupada speaks from the viewpoint of Gaudiya philosophy) :

So we do not accept anyone elevated to the brahman effulgence as actually liberated.

Bhaktivinoda in Sri Krsna Samhita talks about the sun, and various planets, and satellites. You see if we are on the further outreach of the centre of our field, we need to hold tight to mercy potency - then we will not fall. Each jiva has relation - some great, some small. Smallness magnifies mercy. We are fortunate because we are redeemed by mercy potency and have potential for residence in Navadwipa-Goloka Vrindavan.

Even if we are residing far far away from Radha Dham, we are the closest of all because we reside in Nitaai-Gaura's heart. And that love of Gaura is the pinnacle of Radha-Krsna tattva. The most exalted kind of love.

To take birth in the yuga when Mahaprabhu appeared is ultimately very rare...as his appearnce does not take place in this earth plane in all yugas.

We are here Theist, now, in this world - there is no denying that. We are not nitya-siddhas having subconscious dreams - we are nitya-baddha jiva's who are always dependent on mercy of a higher plane. That is our bhajan and that is our greatness (that dependence - servant of the servant of the servant). This subconscious dreaming philosophy is false distortion, and takes away the finer nuance of Gaura's teachings.

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The only evil thing I see Mataji is when the offensive souls rip flesh from the body of Haridas Thakura:crazy:. Everytime my heart sends out negative to another soul I am doing that ripping (and yes it does hurt). And believe me Dasi, time or distance does not limit them bad vibes travelling:eek4: - because I live in non-ordinary states of consciousness constantly now. When a jibe is sent that I am only an intellectual with no bhakti I have to consider that I have hurt another and am receiving due.

Maybe the realization of mercy is the only hope - in this world full of offence. That is why I take shelter of Nityananda Gauranga Naam - and do not pride myself further.

Or maybe detachment, a light heart and realization of how foolish false ego is - is the real panacea. Let the body die...

That is why I read Stainslav Grof (in self therapy along with Naam), because I want to die to live. And I know my madness:eek3:.

It hurts.

lol:)

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> But from the story of Brahma stealing the cows and gopals it is clear that the dreams of the Vrajavasis do last for a duration of time in the material world. Brahma's one moment of material time in Brahmaloka was one year of time for the dreaming cowherd boys. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

 

This example has no relation to the topic. by Theist

 

Ramana dasi's realization should not be cast aside so quickly, maybe she has vijnana. Think about it, where did this pastime take place? It was not in Goloka, it was in Gokula - in another universe this pastime is taking place right now. We can go there in Naam bhajana, and we can go there next birth to enact with Lord Brahma to be purified (as he was), to be able to enter Goloka Vrindavana after full purification.

The concept is that the growth of the bhakti creeper within the heart penetrates all realms and is not confined by material laws and time. That is why in Naam bhajana we can experience goings on in another universe without the limit of time or material travel. Look at it this way, if we were to fly in a spaceship to that universe where the pastime is happening it would take years and the body would deterioate, but instantly through bhakti yoga there is an easy journey to other planets.

So she is right, while we are in this body we are under the effect of two laws - spiritual and material. In due course the finer potency totally purifies the other - and then the non-dual absolute truth appears in the heart (vijnana). Then yoga-maya and Bhakti devi arrange all things. Even utilizing the time factor for our purification.

So these conflicting ideas that energy is not interconnected is only due to illusion. Brahma was bewildered when yoga-maya lifted the veil - he received vijnana - but he was purified of his offence. He surrendered and realized Krsna was the supreme mystic!

This example has no relation to the topic. by Theist

A very esoteric subject, how it is related? Gokula - the appearance of Krsna in the heart. This is the door way Theist - a wonderful grace of Sri Krsna.

Good one detective Melvin...so in Gokula the residents experience time (as in the cow stealing story), but when yoga-maya came into effect and the veil was lifted a wee bit, Visnu forms appeared. So yoga-maya is where it is at...

Jolly good Melvin, no doubt a senior member.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja shares his insights of the flaws of anthropomorphism in his speech Relative Worlds click here. As you know he is coming from a school of thought that is interested in the purely transcendental - so his article speaks toward the end about Goloka, and the relevance to us of that Realm.

He also points to flaws in gnosticism. I found something very interesting though, in his words - he speaks of the 'beautiful gnosticism'.

So I feel he is teaching us the rule of dovetailing, and at the same time upholding Goloka. Sharing with us the way of application, which will lead us to the goal, without getting lost.

I have yet to remove the plastic wrap on my copies of Sri Brhad bhagavatamrta.

Don't do it....in twenty years time that plastic will be way cool:cool:.

jan:)

Aren't you really just picking and choosing what appears to support your view and just arbitrarily rejecting the rest? by raghu

Just one thing Raghu, I posted a link to Brahma-vavairta-purana just to assist kimfelix (I like him) - and because generally I am an ok type of person who likes to join in and assist. To be honest I am not interested in producing scripture to convert others...I cant be bothered with the book in the hand preacher stuff (anymore).

Now, about picking and choosing - my heart is just my heart. Others also have hearts... I am easy about that.

Some may consider me uncompassioante with such a mood...I consider it my sanity.

My heart Raghu lives in a huge world of mystique...and also the Veda is huge. I cant process the whole cannon, therefore I choose what rings true to my heart. Each to their own, brother....

thats correct dasi...

and, god's energies are fully spiritual (all of them)...even the leaves of the trees that made your bhagavatam copy. spiritual substance in a way - if we can see. therefore i suggest that krsna is.

and that vision is not just a faith crutch - it is life>>>>>>>

Firm, ceaseless, and unshakable love of God which surpasses every other form of affection or attachment, and which is based on and inspired by a full knowledge of His transcendent majesty, is called bhakti; by that alone does one attain liberation-by no other means.

 

(Sripada Madhvacarya)

good stuff kaisersose.

i have heard people theorize that all is in the dna...the shaman in vision has always spoken of serpent. the shaman is not the only one to use such symbols (words) to convey... words are of a grosser principle therefore symbol is necessary. the psyche can move toward symbol in visionary experience...but the symbol only exists because we see from a lower field (ascending)... the descending will also use word and symbol to convey.

bhaktivinoda thakura knew this, as do many swanlike vaisnava's. and he did not deny form (spiritual) - the intelligence that is evident and fully pervading on so many levels has captured the heart of man.

Richard L Thompson mentions that Boehm had the holograph theory of time. The psychiatrist Stanislav Grof has written a very interesting book called the Holotropic mind. Grof uses different language, but is aware of vedic thought...from what I have read he is pointing to Mahat-tattva and Pradhana type phenomena.

Most of these scientists have impersonal vision, but are moving into the realms of deeper consciousness with matter, which is actually defined as consciousness in Bhagavad Gita (material element). As Ramana dasi has pointed out in the Bhagavatam purport...the Lord's touch or glance one may say.

So really we must define what is the material world and what is the spiritual world when asking does time exist. I say this for several reasons. One is that there is basic material time that a conditioned soul experiences. Now, there is a deeper aspect to experience of time in the psyche - we have all had dejavu or visions of furure events maybe. You see there we are beginning to tap into the wonder of Maha-tattva and even to the fundamentals of pradhana in some ways. We could call these fundamentals set patterns maybe - foundational blocks.

So I intuit that there is tanscendence beyond the Mahat-tattva, as is also spoken about in sastra - Krsna and the planets. So there must be a dividing line, I guess that is called Viraja. I would speculate that spiritual time is even more advanced in make-up than the presently known theories of holo-tropic experience in connection with the vast hologram (that was theorized by Boehm) or that Mahat-tattva. Richard L Thompson was moving in this direction I presume, basing his studies on Spirtual Personality and transcendence from a vaisnava perspective.

I would say we can look at this subject matter in one simple way - considering that the sages have said that this world is shadow, therefore I would suggest that all things have a more subtle and finer principe - in a more refined perfect manner. Therefore if we were scientifically minded we could suggest that time does exist in a spiritual reality, in an inconceivable way.

The self realized soul, while still in the body, is free and in no way inhibited by grosser laws...even death cannot hold spirit.

finer - not linear - fully present now

The holo-experience is indescribable, but definately inconceivably one yet different - and perfectly whole. We must remember the founder of such thought was of the highest and finest theistic intellect (Sri Gauranga).

How can the Gopis experience separation from Krishna if there is neverending union? Krishna sometimes comes and sometimes goes. He is not motionless or static. posted by Ramana dasi

This is the perfect answer...the realm of lila...one yet different...there is no distance in love (because it burns in the heart and transforms into divine madness). A principle even more profound than the hologram...but as jiva we have this holographic encounter to utilize and dovetail (by God's grace).

Nice post bija! Svarupa is the one who has expounded a lot on the dreaming state I just mentioned it.

Thank you Theist...I know each of us has personal realization by the Lord's kindness within.

Haribol.

So, do you think I`m liberated at this point in time?

Some old friends became pentecostal born again christians...they always say to me 'are you born again?'

I say to them, 'I am born again every day'.

My spiritual name is 'Ever-new'.... so for me the process and the journey is like that....eternity is forever....love is ever-new....and liberation is a continual unfoldment of being.

Hare Krsna & God bless

 

Melvin

take good care melvin...be well..

I just got some results from doctor an hour ago and my liver is still getting sicker... so every day is moving toward the source of love.

om shanti... god is beautiful hey..life divine... le mileu divin

yours

thank you