muralidhar

<center> SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM, FIRST CANTO, CHAPTER 3, (TRANSLATION BY SRILA A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA) TEXT 31 yatha nabhasi meghaugho renur va parthivo 'nile evam drastari drsyatvam aropitam abuddhibhih yatha--as it is; nabhasi--in the sky; megha-oghah--a mass of clouds; renuh--dust; va--as well as; parthivah--muddiness; anile--in the air; evam--thus; drastari--to the seer; drsyatvam--for the purpose of seeing; aropitam--is implied; abuddhibhih--by the less intelligent persons. TRANSLATION Clouds and dust are carried by the air, but less intelligent persons say that the sky is cloudy and the air is dirty. Similarly, they also implant material bodily conceptions on the spirit self. TEXT 32 atah param yad avyaktam avyudha-guna-brmhitam adrstasruta-vastutvat sa jivo yat punar-bhavah atah--this; param--beyond; yat--which; avyaktam--unmanifested; avyudha--without formal shape; guna-brmhitam--affected by the qualities; adrsta--unseen; asruta--unheard; vastutvat--being like that; sah--that; jivah--living being; yat--that which; punah-bhavah--takes birth repeatedly. TRANSLATION Beyond this gross conception of form is another, subtle conception of form which is without formal shape and is unseen, unheard and unmanifest. The living being has his form beyond this subtlety, otherwise he could not have repeated births. TEXT 33 yatreme sad-asad-rupe pratisiddhe sva-samvida avidyayatmani krte iti tad brahma-darsanam yatra--whenever; ime--in all these; sat-asat--gross and subtle; rupe--in the forms of; pratisiddhe--on being nullified; sva-samvida--by self-realization; avidyaya--by ignorance; atmani--in the self; krte--having been imposed; iti--thus; tat--that is; brahma-darsanam--the process of seeing the Absolute. TRANSLATION Whenever a person experiences, by self-realization, that both the gross and subtle bodies have nothing to do with the pure self, at that time he sees himself as well as the Lord. TEXT 34 yady esoparata devi maya vaisaradi matih sampanna eveti vidur mahimni sve mahiyate yadi--if, however; esa--they; uparata--subsided; devi maya--illusory energy; vaisaradi--full of knowledge; matih--enlightenment; sampannah--enriched with; eva--certainly; iti--thus; viduh--being cognizant of; mahimni--in the glories; sve--of the self; mahiyate--being situated in. TRANSLATION If the illusory energy subsides and the living entity becomes fully enriched with knowledge by the grace of the Lord, then he becomes at once enlightened with self-realization and thus becomes situated in his own glory. </center> <hr> Note the Sanskrit words given in verse 32. The word jiva is used. Verses 32/33 clearly state that the jiva's real identity is that "he" is Brahman. He(sah) is the unseen, unheard and unmanifest ("Brahma", in the next verse, verse 33). But "he" enters into material existance again and again (punah-bhavah). When one realizes that avidya (illusion) is a superimposition upon the self (atma), he experiences Brahman (brahma-darsanam). Verse 34 continues, saying: "If the illusory energy subsides and the living entity becomes fully enriched with knowledge by the grace of the Lord, then he becomes at once enlightened with self-realization and thus becomes situated in his own glory." Srila Prabhupada has added the additional words "by the grace of the Lord" in his translation of verse 34. In verse 33, Srila Prabhupada says, "at that time he sees himself as well as the Lord." The Sanskrit is "avidyayatmani krte iti tad brahma-darsanam". That is to say, the liberated being experiences brahma-darshana - direct experience of Brahma(n). Murali

My understanding is that Advaita-vada teaches that the Absolute is one without a second, so there is no possiblity of onlookers, since onlookers is a plural word. But there is an onlooker consiousness, Brahman, who is the knower of Truth, and who is one and the same as that Truth. The liberated soul shares the same state of thought as the Absolute Brahman itself, and is thus merged in the identity of Brahma-nirvana. There is no individual ego consciousness in Brahman, so there is no possiblity of individual "onlookers". Of course this is all quite opposed to the liberated state of a pure devotee of Bhagavan. Murali

Just a little background information. Srila Sridhar Maharaj was born in a Smarta family in the village of Hapaniya, near Nabadwip, and he happened to be a family relation of many of the important Smarta pandits of Nabadwip. I understand that while Vedanta was an issue in the discussions, the main issue was that Srila Sridhar Maharaj and many other men born in brahmin families had accepted Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, who was born in a non brahmin family, as Guru. The Smartas of Nabadwip attempted to kill Srila Saraswati Thakur by stoning him with bricks. This is the reason why Srila Sridhar Maharaj decided to make his place of bhajan and temple in Koladwip, Nabadwip. The Smarta brahmins did accept the conclusions presented by Srila Sridhar Maharaj and some were initiated. Srila Yajabar Maharaj also would have been able to debate very successfully with the Smartas, but losing a debate like that would have very serious, negative consequences, so he asked Srila Sridhar Maharaj to represent the disciples of Srila Saraswati Thakur. In regard to the points that Srila Sridhar Maharaj presented in that debate, I understand that he simply presented the same points that are always presented by Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, Srila Jiva Goswami, Srila Saraswati Thakura, etc. We know Srila Sridhar Maharaj was a great philosopher, and he would sometimes present some interesting, new perspectives when discussing philosophy. But he always made a great effort to give an accurate and authoratative presentation of the teachings of the previous Vaishnava Acharyas. Murali

Dear JNDas Prabhu, do you know of any refences, especially web sites where information is posted detailing the pastimes of Sri Ramanujacharya at Melkote. I am in the process of collecting various documents in order to explain the concept of Sampradaya and Parampara as explained by Srila Saraswati Thakur Prabhupada. thanks, Murali

JNDas said: Ramanuja himself performed initiation to non-caste communities in Melkote while he was in hiding in the forest. The natives of Melkote were tribals, but through pancha-samskara initiation he brought them to the position of brahmanas. <hr> Personally speaking, I am not even trying to attain gopi-bhava, though my own Guru Maharaj has always instructed me that this type of devotion is the highest. But if I had the chance to go and serve the lotus feet of Sri Ramanujacharya for one million births I would feel my dreams were all fulfilled.

Madhava: In regard to the fact that Bipin Bihari published an article in 1919 declaring that he had rejected Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur as his disciple, what then is the status within the Gaudiya Sampradya of Lalit Prashad? How do the followers of Lalit Prashad reconcile this fact? Did Lalit Prashad reject Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur's instruction that Mayapura is the birthplace of Mahaprabhu? If so, how can Lalit Prashad and his disciples claim to be true followers of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur? If Lalit Prashad's connection to the Gaudiya Sampradaya throgh Bhaktivinode Thakur is broken, then wouldn't this automatically mean Lalit Prashad was also ousted from the Sampradaya.

In regard to Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati initiating disciples with the Brahma-gayatri and Kamagayatri etc.. Sri Varadayatirajajeer, the present Jeer (Guru) at Sri Perembudur, the birthplace of Sri Ramanujacharya, has initiated Australian and South African-born men with Vishnu mantras and with brahma-gayatri and the sacred thread. I intend to ask the Acharya of the Sri Sampradaya here in Sydney, Sri Rami Sivan, if he could provide me with the scriptural references for this. My understanding is that traditionally, within the Tenkalais sect of the Sri Sampradaya, men have been initiated with the sacred thread and with Gayatri, even if they were born in families other than families of the brahmin caste. I was told this by Vaikunthanath Ramanujacharya, a disciple of Sri Varadayatirajajeer, but I intend to check if this information he gave me is correct. Interestingly, the family name of Vaikunthanath Ramanujacharya before he was initiated was Al'Haji but now he has changed his name. His father's family were Muslims from Morrocco. I was told that when Sri Rami Sivan was recommended to receive the status of Acharya within the Srisampradaya, several other Jeers examined Sri Rami Sivan (who was born in a Jewish family in South Africa) to make sure he was properly qualified to be placed in this very responsible role of Acharya. Nowadays, Sri Rami Sivan travels extensively and preaches the gospel of Sri Ramanujacharya. He sometimes lectures about Srivaishnavism in Universities in the USA, Singapore and other places. In an article by Jagat he suggests that within orthodox Hindu society in India it is not seen that persons of lower caste will be initiated as brahmins. But in the society of the Srivaishnavas of the South.... Initiation with Gayatri and sacred thread is conducted so the devotee can engage in the full process of Archana, Deity worship. Sri Rami Sivan is a master pujari and purohit. He routinely performs investiture with sacred thread for boys of the brahmin caste here in Sydney. He also initiates western born men with Gayatri and various Vishnu mantras. Initiation with Vishnu mantra is a part of sadhana, a requirement for Srivaishnavas who wish to engage in strict processes of Deity worship. In the Srisampradaya great emphasis is placed on Archana, and if a devotee wants to render proper service it is required that he will receive appropriate initiation. Of course, you must be sincere. I think you must be very sincere. Because when you receive initiation you must undergo a branding ceremony where you are burned on the shoulders with red-hot branding irons that have symbols of the chakra and the conch. Prabhupada Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami accepted sannyasa after visiting South India and consulting with Jeers (Gurus) of the Srisampradaya.

Madhava, Thanks for the info and the link to the article. In regard to varnashram, might I just mention a tiny fact: If you go to Nabadwip and visit the place of bhajan of my Srila Sridhar Maharaj, you will see that on the front of the grand temple where the Deities are installed, the words "sarva dharman parityajya" etc.. are written on the temple. In the old days, before the Natya Mandir in front of the temple was built, what you used to see first of all when you approaced the temple was this verse. That is, when you arrived at the gate the first words you see are "sarva dharman parityajya". People by nature have a certain tendency to work as teacher, boss, businessman or labourer. But whatever your tendency, you should turn towards Bhagavan and render bhakti. That is the message of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, Srila Saraswati Thakur, Srila Sridhar Maharaj, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, etc.. Also, I just read the entire article by Jagat. Interesting. Jagat says: "Bipin Bihari Goswami... publicly renounced Bhaktivinoda Thakur as his disciple shortly before dying in 1919. The reason he gave for this drastic act was precisely for "preaching falsehoods" connected to the birthplace of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. " Reading Jagat's criticims of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, I am reminded of Srila Sanatan Goswami's work "Brhad Bhagavatamrtam", which is in a similar genre to the supposedly counterfeit books of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur. Indeed, the Bhagavat itself is considered by some persons to have been written down in the seventh century. Should we also reject the Bhagavata as a counterfeit work? Mahaprabhu saw it as inspirational, and we see the work of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur as inspirational. More will need to be discussed in regard to this issue, but later.... Murali

Yes I can appreciate that you have lots to do. Take a couple of weeks. That's fine. I'm in the process of collecting lots of documents from different sources in regard to this topic at the moment. It is a rather important project that I have in mind, but it will take a little while to complete. Murali.

stone said: <hr> I heard Vishvambhar Goswami of Radharamana temple recount that his grandfather spent some time with Sarasvati Thakur planning thier approach to this topic and that he accompanied BSST to that meeting. I have this on tape somewhere at home. <hr> Dear Stone, I would love to get a transcription of that tape! Please! Murali

I don't have the books in front of me, but I believe varnashram is discussed in Jaiva Dharma and Chaitanya Siksamrtam. I know that in his commentary to Sri Tattva Sutra he discusses how a person should be able to assess his own nature and see what sort of varna he belongs to. And if a person cannot understand what his station in life is, then the individual should approach a Guru to get guidance. Daivi, of course, means that the varnashram Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur was referring to is not the hereditary caste system. It is a varnashram system where the status of a person is determined by his/her natural qualities. I have read many, many excerpts during the past couple of days in regard to the caste being ascertained not by birth but by eligibility. Do I need to post these links at some time? They are already well known. Viswamitra of the Ramayana is one example, and I have read similar statements in the Upanishads. In Sri Krishna Samhita we find Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura says that when Aryan culture came to south india some of the indigenous people became converted as members of the Aryan civilization and became new lineages of brahmnins. Of course it is well known that this happened in places such as Thailand and Bali in Indonesia, where the inhabitants accepted the culture and philosophy coming from India. But it is interesting to read the way that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur has presented this subject in Sri Krishna Samhita. Madhava said: <hr> However, in his book on the history of the Baghna Pada Vaishnavas, Kanan Bihari Goswami states: &#8220;He [bipin Bihari Goswami] defeated the scriptural considerations of the Smarta pandits and demonstrated the superiority of Gaudiya Vaishnavism <hr> Interesting. I remember reading Nitai the skeptik saying some place that the great debate with the Smarta pandits never happened at all. Does your writer Kanan Bihari Goswami have anything to say about Srila Saraswati Thakur in regard to that great debate at Midnapore? Murali

Srila Saraswati Thakur had been living in Mayapur and rendering service there since 1900. In 1910 Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur gave him this instruction: "The real service to Sri Mayapur can be done by acquiring printing presses, distributing devotional books, and sankirtan - preaching. Please do not neglect to serve Sri Mayapur or to preach for the sake of your own reclusive bhajan." Srila Bhaktinode Thakur also instructed Saraswati Thakur to establish daiva-varnasrama-dharma. Sripad Narasingha Maharaj and others make the point that this is certainly approval for Srila Saraswati Thakur to accept the the ashrama of sannyasa (he accepted sannyasa eight years later). In the following year, September 1911, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur sent Sarsaswati Thakur to Midnapore to debate against the opposition group of Karmajada Smartas and some caste Gosvami people. Saraswati Thakur was not alone when he went there. Saraswati Thakur entered the meeting accompanied by "Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura's follower Sriyukta Sureshchandra Mukhopadhyaya", and members of "Srila Shyamananda Prabhu's family", and of "Srila Gopala Bhatta Gosvamipada's family" from Radharamana. At the conclusion of the meeting thousands of people halted and surrounded Srila Prabhupada in order to take the dust of his feet. - These events happened five years before Srila Gaurkishore Babaji left this world.

Dear Devotees, Please take note of the significant dates referred to above. The letter from Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur was written in 1910. The meeting at Midnapore was on Friday 8th September 1911. Muralidhar

<center>Brahmins and Vaishnavas by Sri Bhakti Kusum Sraman Maharaja</center> Feeling pained by the distress of others, caused by the misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the pure principles of Vaishnavism, there arose in Prabhupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura an indomitable enthusiasm to preach in an extensive manner Sriman Mahaprabhu's pristine religion of divine love. At that time his initiating spiritual master Srila Gaura Kishore das Babaji Maharaja, who would not allow anyone to touch his feet, by his own will bestowed the dust of his feet upon the head of Srila Saraswati Thakura and gave him the order to preach the message of Mahaprabhu in an extensive way. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada preached strongly about the conclusions of the scriptures which corruptly selfish readers of the scriptures conceal. siksa guruke ta' jani krishnera svarupa antaryarni bhakta srestha ei dui rupa. "I know the instructing Guru to he the own-self of Krishna in these two Forms - the in-dwelling Monitor and the best of devotees." Ch. Car. (Adi 1/47) In the Anubhasya (commentary) to this verse of the Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita, Srila Sarasvati Thakura has written, "He who gives instruction on Hari bhajana is the instructing (siksa) Guru. A Guru or Acharya is never devoid of bhajana or badly behaved. The great Guru who takes bliss in bhajana and the mental Guru (Chitta-guru) Who gives the discrimination for accepting things favorable to bhajana are the two types of instructors. The instructions of bhajana differ with the differences in the stage of practice (sadhana) and attainment (sadhya). Sri Gurudeva, the bestower of Krishna, by enriching his disciple with the knowledge of relationship (sambandhanana) unfolds to him the realization of his own service. After attaining the grace of that initiating Guru, the instructions, which are then given on the immaculate service of Vishnu, are described by the name 'abhideya'. The instructing Gu ru in the form of a servitor - the embodiment of abhideya, is not a different entity from the initiating Guru - the bestower of sambandhanana. Both of them are Gurudeva. To see or understand them unequally brings spiritual offence. Between Krishna's Form (rupa) and His Own Self (svarupa) there is none of the dissimilarity brought about by language. The initiating Guru is Sanatana - the bestower of Madana Mohana&#8217;s Lotus Feet. To the souls who have forgotten God and are unable to roam in Vraja he gives the realization of the Feet of God as one's all in all. The instructing Guru is Rupa - the bestower of the fitness to perform service to Govinda and to the Feet of His Dearest One." In the eighth chapter of the Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita we can see Sriman Mahaprabhu saying to Srila Raya Ramananda kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya yei krishna tattva vetta sei guru haya "Whether one be a Brahmin, or a Sannyasi, or a Sudra, he who is versed in the truth of Krishna is a Guru." In the Anubhasya to the that verse Srila Sarasvati Thakura has written, "Let him be a Brahmin by caste, or let him be a Ksatriya, Vaisya or Sudra ; let him be a sannyasi by stage of life or let him be a brahmachari, vanaprastha or grihastha ; let him be situated in any caste or stage of life - he who is versed in the truth of Krishna can become a Guru, i.e. a vartmapradarsaka-Guru, an instructing Guru or an initiating Guru. The fitness to be a Guru rests only upon the knowledge of the truth of Krishna - it does not rest upon caste or stage of life; this direction of Sriman Mahaprabhu is not opposed to the scriptural directions. By following the purport of this Sri Visvambhara Mahaprabhu was initiated by the sannyasi Sri lsvara Pun. Sri Nityananda Prabhu was Initiated by the sannyasi Sri Madhavendra Puri Gosvami (by Srimat Laksmipati Tirtha according to another opinion) and Sri Advaitacharya was initiated by the sannyasi Sri Madhavendra Puri. Sri Rasikananda was initiated with Pancharatrika initiation by Sri Syamananda who appeared in a family who were not seminal Brahmins, Sri Ganganarayana Chakravarti and Sri Ramakrishna Bhattacharya (seminal Brahmins) were initiated by Sri Narottama Thakura who appeared in a family who were not seminal Brahmins, and Katwa's Sri Yadunandana Chakravarti was Initiated by Sri Dasa Gadadhara. Being a religious-minded hunter etc. was not even an obstacle for many people to become instructing Gurus. By the proper application of the rules of the Mahabharata's clear injunctions in pursuance of the Vaishnava faith and by the utterance in Srimad Bhagavata's Seventh Canto, Eleventh Chapter, 32nd verse yasya yal laksanam proktath pumso varna bhiv yanjakam yadan yatrapi dris yeta tattenaiva vinirdiset "The signs (qualities) that divide mankind into castes have been described, wherever those qualities are observed then the appropriate caste will be ascertained there accordingly. (Caste will not be ascertained by birth alone." A person who is versed in the truth of Krishna naturally has the character of a Brahmin. Therefore, wherever it is said that anything apart from 'seminal Brahminism' (which is introduced in the Age of Kali ) will not do, Mahaprabhu has carefully given us the understanding that even a 'seminal Sudra' who is a knower of the truth of Krishna is able to become the Guru there, for he has attained scriptural Brahminism. Those knowers of the truth of Krishna who do not accept the Savitra Samskara ( the ceremony of acceptance of the sacred thread ), which is mentioned in the Katyayana Grihyasutra within the Vedic Vajasaneya section, are all Brahrnins initiated in the ekayana. However, most of the time, foolish people are unable to understand that they are infallible Brahmins (achyuta brahmana) and they thus become condemned to hell. It is for this reason that the sacred thread ceremony and the function of acting as Acharyas even for seminal Brahmin sects has been going on since the very beginning in Rasikananda Prabhu's family, in Navani Hoda's family and in Mukunda Dasa's family of Khetari. It is not that since the bhajanandi Vaishnavas have not accepted the savitra samskara that this is the only rule. Vaishnavas ascertain caste by characteristics. But, as foolish people are unable to ascertain caste in that manner, Sri Mahaprabhu has clearly given the understanding of the purport of the scriptures. Even though the compiled conclusions of the Haribhaktivilasa are one with "Mahaprabhu's exemplary behavior end instructions, people, by the judgement of fools, are under the belief that they differ. By their judgement the quoted word 'Guru' alludes to the sravana (hearing) Guru or to the Guru instructing on bhajana, it does not allude to the initiating or mantra-giving Guru, since, in their opinion, the fitness to be the bestower of divine knowledge is ascertained and introduced by family reputation, that is, by blood or semen ; so by their idea, devotion to Krishna, the propensity of the pure soul, is not independent. Moreover, according to their foolishness, the initiating or mantra - giving Guru is superior to the sravana -Guru and the instructing Guru on bhajana. Factually, the only result of this type of idea which is born from sensory knowledge is spiritual offence." In the conclusion of the Amritapravaha-Bhasya on Sriman Mahaprabhu's aforementioned saying, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura has written, "When it is mentioned in the Haribhaktivilasa that if there is a fit person of a high caste present then it is improper to accept the Krishna mantra from a person of low caste, then this is vaishnavism relative to the society ; that is, it is for those who practice family life by the customary rules and who have somewhat of a desire for spirituality. But for those people who know the import of vaidhi and raganuga bhakti and who wish to get pure Krishna devotion, the rule for them is that in whatever caste or stage of life the suitable knower of the truth of Krishna may be in, he should be respectfully accepted as a Guru. In the words of the Padma Purana quoted in the Sri Haribhaktivilasa na sudrah bhagavad bhaktasthe'pi bhagavatottamah sarva varnesu te sudra ye na bhaktah janardane sat karma nipuno vipro mantra tantra visradah avaisnavo gurur na syad vaisnavah svapaco guruh maha kulaprasuto'pi sarva yajnesu diksitah sahasra sakha dhyayi ca na guruh syada vaisnavah vipra ksatriya vaisyas ca guravah sudra janmanam sudras ca guravas tesam trayanam bhagavat priyah "Those who have taken recourse to the devotion of Krishna are never to be counted as Sudras but they are to be glorified as Bhagavatas. Amidst all the castes, those people who are devoid of devotion to Sri Janardana are Sudras. A Brahmin who is expert in the six works and also in mantras and the tantra should not be selected as a Guru if he is a non-Vaishnava. If someone from a dog-eater family is a Vaishnava he may be accepted as a Guru. Even if one is born in the best of families, even if one is initiated in all the sacrifices and is learned in all the branches of the Vedas, if he is a non-Vaishnava he is unable to become a Guru. Generally, Brahmins, Ksatriyas and Vaisyas should be the Gurus of Sudras but even Sudras can be the Gurus of these three castes if they are dear to God ." In the Padma Purana there is also another saying arcye visnau siladhir gurusu nara matir vaisnave jati budhir visnor va vaisnavanam kalimala mathane pada tirthe&#8217; mbu buddhi sri visnor namni mantre saka&#8217; akalusahe sabda samanya buddhir visnau sarves varese tada tira samadhir yasya va naraki sah "That person who thinks the worshipped Deity to be just stone, who considers the Vaishnava Guru to be a mortal human being, who considers the caste of a Vaishnava, who considers the water that has washed the feet at Vishnu and Vaishnavas to be just water, who considers the Name and Mantra of Vishnu, which is the destroyer of all sins, to be just a sound, and who considers the Lord of lords Vishnu to be equal to other demigods is condemnable to hell." na me' bhaktas caturvedi mad bhaktah svapacah priyah tasmai deyam tato grahyam sa ca punyo yatha hy aham "It is not that if one is versed in the four Vedas, i. e. is a Choube Brahmin, then he is a 'devotee'. Even if My devotee is dog-eater he is dear to Me, the devotee is the proper object of charity and the proper acceptor of gifts; devotees are just as worshippable as Me." It has been described in the Srimad Bhagavata (3-33-8)- aho bata svapaco'to gariyan yaj jih vagre vartate nama tubhyam te pusta paste juhuvuh sasnur aryah brahman ucurnar na grinanti ye te "Oh Lord, Those persons in whose mouths Your Name is present, even though they be born in a dog-eater family, are the best of all. Those persons who glorify Your Name have performed all types of penances, they have done all sacrifices and they have bathed in all the holy places, therefore they are to be counted amongst the Aryans." vipra ad dvisada guna yutada dara vinda nabha padaravinda vimukhat svapacam baristham manye tadarpita mano vacane hitartha pranam punati sa kulam na tu bhuri manah (Bhagavata 7-9-9) "Even if they be dog-eaters, I respect those people who dedicate their mind, endeavor, words, wealth and life to Krishna as being better than Brahmins who are endowed with the twelve qualities but who are adverse to the Lotus Feet of Krishna, because he (the devotee appearing in a dog-eater family) purifies his family, and proud Brahmins are unable to do that." In the Sri Hari bhakti sudhodaya Third Chapter, verses 11 and 12, bhagavad bhakti hinasya jatih sastram japastapah apranasyaiva dehasya mandanam lokaranjanam sucih sad bhakti diptag nidag dhadur jati kalmasah svapko'pi budaih slaghyo na veda jno'pi nastikah "The noble family, knowledge of the scriptures, japa and penances of people devoid of devotion to God are just like the ornaments of a dead body and are of no use at all, they are only for public entertainment. Those people whose sins of low birth have been burnt up by the blazing fire of good character and true devotion, even though they be dog-eaters, are respected by the learned, but even if an atheist knows the Vedas he is not worthy of respect. The words of the Tattvasagara in the Sri Hari Bhaktivilasa's second Vilasa, twelfth verse yatha kancha natam yati kasyam rasa vidha natah tatha diksa vidhanena dvija tvam jayate nrinam "In the same manner that bell-metal attains the quality of being gold by the influence of a special chemical process, so also, by the influence of initiation men attain the state of being twice-born (i.e. Brahminism)." In the commentary to this verse the conclusion of Srila Sanatana Gosvami Prabhu is nrinam sarvesameva dvija tvam 'viprata' . (All men can attain the Brahminism of the twice born.) There is also the statement of the Vishnupurana in relation to the glories of mahaprasada naivedyam jagadisasya tvan napa nadi kancha yat bhaksya bhaksya vicaras ca nasti tad bhaksane dvijah brahma vinnirv vikaram hi yatha visnus tathaiva tat vikaram ye prakur vanti bhaksane tat dvija tayah kusthav yadi sama yuktah putra dara vivarjitah nirayam yanti vipras tasman na vartate punah "Oh Brahmins ! No kind of consideration is to be given to the edibility or non-edibility of the things such as food and drink, which have been offered to Vishnu. Those Brahmins who judge about its edibility lose their sons and wives and being attacked with leprosy go to hell, from where they do not return." When all of these non-envious Bhagavata conclusions were preached on a large scale by Srila Prabhupada, and when many descendants of Brahmins accepted initiation from a few Vaishnava acharyas who came from families other than Brahmins by following the conclusion of Sriman Mahaprabhu's above mentioned verse and also the ideal of Sri Ramakrishna Bhattacharya and Sri Ganganarayana Chakravarti's acceptance of initiation from Srila Narottama Thakura, who appeared in a Kayastha family, a terrible agitation was seen amongst the Karmajada Smartas. They girded up their loins to prove the Vaishnavas to be lowly. A few established people of the caste Gosvami sect also joined those Smartas due to the attachment of the materialistic social tie, and instead of exhibiting the moral courage to protest against them, they began to support them. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, who was then bed-ridden with rheumatism, said in a roaring voice, "ls there not such a person manifest in the Vaishnava world who is capable to hold a meeting with them and by the conclusions and original logic of the scriptures put a stop to these lowly activities which are the frenzied dance of the three material qualities ?" Srila Sarasvati Thakura then wrote "Brahmana 0 Vaisnavera Taratamya Visayaka Siddhanta" (The conclusion about the subject of comparison between Brahmins and Vaishnavas) and read it to Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura. [This discussion can be seen in the book &#8216;Brahmana 0 Vaishnava&#8217; published from Sri Chaitanya Math, Sridham Mayapur.] Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura was so glad upon hearing the essay that, although he was unable to arise, out of joy he sat up and said to Srila Sarasvati Thakura in vigorous language, "Sarasvati, truly, truly Sarasvati! Truly, truly the acharya sun, lighting the face of the Vaishnava world. By the light of these judgements the darkness of the Karmajada Smarta's doctrine will certainly s oon be dispelled." At 3 p.m. on Friday 8th September 1911 A. D, the meeting for the discussion between the Karmajada Smarta Brahmins and the Vaishnavas was begun at Midnapore District's Balighat Uddhavapura. Prabhupada Srila Sarasvati Thakura set out from Calcutta with Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura's follower Sriyukta Sureshchandra Mukhopadhyaya on the 6th September and at 10 p. m. he reached the Sauri Prapannasrama where he saw that Panditapravara Srila Madhusudhana Gosvami Sarvabhauma (of Srila Gopala Bhatta Gosvamipada's family) from Sridhama Vrindavana's Radharamana enclosure and Panditapravara Srila Visvambharananda Devagosvami (of Srila Shyamananda Prabhu's family) from Sripata Gopivallabhapura were waiting for him there. The two Gosvamipadas and Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura's follower Srimat Sitanatha Bhaktitirtha Mahasaya accorded Srila Prabhupada a reception with the honor befitting an Acharya. In their mutual meeting of giving and taking affection the waves of bliss began to flow. Srila Sarasvati Thakura, along with the other Vaishnavas, arrived for the meeting on the 8th September. The seminal Brahmin pandits of the Karmajada society also joined the meeting from various places at the correct time. Many people introduced by the name of descendants of customary Acharyas from the caste Gosvami society also took their seats in the debate under the Karmajada party. By the Karmajada Smarta's opinion: 1) Even if a person appearing in a Sudra family is initiated by the Pancharatrika initiation according to the Vaishnavite scriptural rules, still he is not fit to worship the Salagrama. 2) He who does not take his birth in a Brahmin family by seminal consideration is not fit to undertake all tasks. Even if he is a Vaishnava of the highest order (uttama adhikari) he is never able to perform the duties of an Acharya. By the consent of all, Panditapravara Sri Visvambharananda Devagosvami accepted the Chair as the meeting&#8217;s president. Prabhupada Srila Sarasvati Thakura then began to recite the conclusions which were written in the &#8216;Brahmana 0 Vaisnavera Taratamya Visavaka Siddhanta,' in order to destroy the said doctrine. This address is divided into the Prakritajana section and the Harijana section. When he began to recite the glories of Brahmins from the Prakritajana section the pandits of the opposing side lost themselves in joy. It was not known to them that there were this many utterances in various scriptures expressing the glories of Brahmins. When the discussion was begun clearly with the original reasoning of the scriptures as to who is a Brahmin, who is a Vaishnava, what is the relationship between them both and who is whose Guru etc., the joy of those people opposed to the Vaishnavas vanished. On not getting any suitable counter many people amongst them started an uproar. After the uproar was quelled some argumentative people spoke three or four statements no doubt, but they were reduced to ashes immediately by the cannon like good logic issuing forth from Srila Sarasvati Thakura's mouth. Gradually, the meeting went on for three days. Making known the substantiality of Srila Sarasvati Thakura's conclusion, Srila Madhusudana Gosvami Sarvabhauma, Sriyukta Ramananda Dasa Babaji and Sriyukta Sitanatha Bhaktitirtha Mahodaya lectured on the subject that no matter what family a Vaishnava appears in, he always has perfect fitness for worship of the Salagrama and recital of the Vedas. On the final day, Srila Sarasvati Thakura, as concluding speaker, delivered a speech in vigorous and ornate language for a period of two hours. There remained nothing for the opposite side to counter. Thousands of voices extensively proclaimed the victory of the Vaishnavas. After the meeting thousands and thousands of people halted and surrounded Srila Prabhupada in order to take the dust of his feet. The guards told them to stay peacefully and assured everyone that their longed for object would be given. The guards then took a large basin full of water for touching his feet in and took Srila Prabhupada to another place. To give the water that washed his feet was a far-removed subject. Srila Prabhupada would never even allow anyone to touch his feet. If anyone prostrated to him he would immediately return the prostration and exhibit the behavior of the Vaishnava's ideal - ''I shall not take anyone's worship." To protect Srila Prabhupada from the pressure of the crowd, despite his intense objections. The guards forcefully collected the water which had touched his feet and then took Srila Prabhupada to a resting-place. Gradually, a few water pots full of water were added to this water and within a short time it was completely exhausted. On receiving the water which had washed Srila Prabhupada's feet the people were grateful and felt blessed. http://www.mahaprabhu.net/brahvais.html

Saraswati! "People of this world who are proud of their own aristocratic birth cannot attain real aristocracy. Therefore they attack the pure Vaishnavas, saying, 'They have taken birth in low-class families because of their sins.' Thus they commit offenses. The solution to the problem is to establish the order of daiva-varnasrama-dharma - something you have started doing; you should know that to be the real service to the Vaishnavas. Because pure devotional conclusions are not being preached, all kinds of superstitions and bad concepts are being called devotion by such pseudo-sampradayas as sahajiya and atibari. Please always crush these anti-devotional concepts by preaching pure devotional conclusions and by setting an example through your personal conduct. "Please make great effort so you can start parikram of Sridham Navadwip as soon as possible. It is by those actions that everyone in this world will receive Krishna-bhakti. Please try very hard to make sure that the service to Sri Mayapur will become a permanent thing and will become brighter and brighter every day. The real service to Sri Mayapur can be done by acquiring printing presses, distributing devotional books, and sankirtan - preaching. Please do not neglect to serve Sri Mayapur or to preach for the sake of your own reclusive bhajan. "When I am not present any more, please take care to serve Sri Mayapur Dham which is so dear to you. This is my special instruction to you. People who are like animals can never attain devotion; therefore never take their suggestions. But do not let them know this directly or indirectly. "I had a special desire to preach the significance of such books as Srimad Bhagavatam, Sat Sandarbha, and Vedanta Darshan. You have to accept that responsibility. Sri Mayapur will prosper if you establish an educational institution there. Never make any effort to collect knowledge or money for your own enjoyment. Only to serve the Lord will you collect these things. Never engage in bad association, either for money or for some self-interest. signed, Kedarnatha Datta Bhaktivinode <hr> http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/nmj_articles/parampara/parampara1_2.html The letter (1910) above is from Bhaktivinode Thakura to Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura.

Madhava, I've noted what you have said. No time to chat now. Perhaps in a week or two... The devotee who borrowed my book by Sripad Sraman Maharaj lent it to another devotee. I will find out if I can get it back from him tonight. If I can't get it back, I will write to our Math in Nabadwip or to Sripad Narasingha Maharaj and ask them if they can send me the quotes and references from that book. If you are interested, Sripad Sraman Maharaj's biography is here: http://hari-katha.org/news/archive/kusum_sraman_2001.htm Muralidhar

Madhava, I missed the section you entered regarding the Diksa Guru of Srila Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami. I only noticed it when I re-read the thread this evening. You discuss that some persons have suggested Raghunatha Bhatta was the Diksa Guru of Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami. And of course, Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami is constantly saying "sri-rupa-raghunatha pade.." , meaning he is constantly giving obeisances to Srila Raghunath das Goswami and Sri Rupa Goswami. So we know that in the last years of his life, that is, during the period when he wrote the CC, he was especially appreciative of the inspiration and guidance he had received from Srila Raghunath das Goswami and Sri Rupa Goswami. Madhava said, "If indeed one of the six Gosvamis was the diksa-guru of Krishnadas, it would explain his pranama to mantra-guru (CC Adi 1.35) and the Six Gosvamis without specifying the name of the mantra-guru." Honestly, I fail to understand your logic here. Srila Kaviraj Goswami directly states that the sad-Goswamis are his siksa-gurus. Of course a Diksa Guru can also give siksa, but if one of the six Goswamis were his Diksa Guru then where is the special praise that should be offered to that special devotee who has given Divine Realization received through Diksa? You have noted: I know, though, that A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami proposes the following in his translation of Adi-lila 1.40: "Srila Nityananda Rama is the plenary manifestation of the Lord, and I have been initiated by Him. I therefore offer my respectful obeisances unto His lotus feet." The Bengali reads: "yanra muni das" -- "whose servant I am". Indeed. You choose the words "Whose servant I am". Alternatively, we might translate "yanra muni das" with the words "I belong to Him" or "I am a slave or servant or devotee of Nityananda Prabhu". In 1974, my siksa-guru Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami told me "thoroughly read and assimilate my books" and I take his words to heart. Because of problems within the institution he founded I left ISKCON and took initiation from Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj. But that doesn't change the fact that I am also a disciple of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. And for that reason, in the article I intend to put together concering Parampara I will present the position taken by Srila Prabhupad, that Kaviraj Goswami was initiated by Sri Nityananda Rama. The circumstances of his initiation? I will say they are described in Chaitanya Charitamrta, Chapter 5, verses 181-198, since there is no indication anywhere that Srila Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami ever met with Sri Nityananda Prabhu in any place other than in the dream Kaviraj Goswami experienced. I will argue the case that Kaviraj Goswami's spiritual path was very much like the path of Gopakumara in Brhad Bhagavatamrtam. In Gopakumar's case, his Diksa Guru went away just a moment after he gave Gopakumar the Diksa mantra. jaya jaya nityananda, jaya krpa-maya yanha haite painu rupa-sanatanasraya yanha haite painu raghunatha-mahasaya yanha haite painu sri-svarupa-asraya sanatana-krpaya painu bhaktira siddhanta sri-rupa-krpaya painu bhakti-rasa-pranta jaya jaya nityananda-caranaravinda yanha haite painu sri-radha-govinda All glory, all glory to the lotus feet of Lord Nityananda, by whose mercy I have attained Sri Radha-Govinda! Muralidhar

Madhava, As I mentioned earlier, I would be interested to hear your answer to these questions. Who do you say is the initiating Guru of Srila Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami? In CC, Adi 1.37 Kaviraj Goswami lists Srila Raghunath das Goswami as a siksa-guru, not Diksa. What relationship do you say he has with Sri Nityananda Prabhu? Muralidhar

Any references to Ramananda's sampradaya, please? <hr> Yes, if you want references, just go to the Gambira room of Mahaprabhu in Puri Take a look at the huge mural picture on the wall of that room where Mahaprabhu lived. Take note of the Sri Sampradaya tilak on the forehead of Sri Ramananda Raya, who is pictured in the mural with Mahaprabhu.

Brahma Gayatri Bhasya by Srila Bhaktiraksaka Sridara Deva Goswami Maharaja "The gayatri mantra will excite us to be mindful about Srimati Radharani's lotus feet, to obey her orders." "Radha-dasyam, the service of Srimati Radharani, is the ultimate meaning to be extracted from the gayatri mantra." The Mantra om bhur bhuva sva tat savitur varenyam bhargo devasya dhimahi dhiyo yo na pracodayat om om - the seed mantra which contains everything within it; bhur - the physical world; bhuva - the mental world; sva - the intellectual world; tat - that, the three planes of experience; savituh - the soul; varenyam - worshipable, venerable; bhargo - the supersubjective area, the svarupa-sakti; devasya - who is beautiful and playful, Krsna, Reality the Beautiful; dhimahi - come meditate; dhiyah - of meditation, of service; yo - who; na - us; pracodayat - enthuses our capacity; <DIV ALIGN=CENTER> Translation "Above the three planes of mundane experience, bhu, bhuvah, svah is the soul, savitur, who shows us everything just like the sun. Above the soul is the supersubjective plane which is varenyam, most venerated and worshipable. That worshipable plane of existence is called bhargo, brilliant and illuminating. The supersubjective area, bhargo, is the plane known as the svarupa-sakti which is the internal pleasure potency of deva, Krishna, Reality the Beautiful. That bhargo is His own divine potency Srimati Radharani. Let us meditate upon the lotus feet of Srimati Radharani, whose extended self and essential nature, mahabhava, is the svarupa-sakti, and who enthuses our capacity of devotional service. Let us surrender unto Her divine service." For anyone who wants to read more, a longer commentary is available here: http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/ssm_gayatri.html Other, longer commentaries can be found in a number of publications from Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math.

Madhava: Don't be ridiculous. You are supposed to be in the Madhva sampradaya. <hr> Huh? Sri Ramananda Raya was in the Ramanuja Sampradaya, was he not. Should we ignore the instructions of Sri Ramananda Raya? Are the instructions of Sri Ramanujacharya meaningless. You say follow the mahajans. Isn't Sri Ramanujacharya a mahajan?

I only know what I heard through my ear as I sat on a chair next to Guru Maharaj, (with my hand covering my other ear). Murali

Madhava said: Do you think it is a good idea to post confidential diksa-mantras in a public internet forum? <hr> What is the harm? Sri Ramanujacharya is my guide.

Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Maharaj: There was an alwar, a South Indian guru who had the highest type of mantra. Ramanuja wanted that mantra from him. The alwar told Ramanuja, "If you don't disclose this mantra to anyone, then I shall reveal it to you." Ramanuja agreed, and with this pledge, Ramanuja approached him and received the mantra. It had already been announced to the public that Ramanuja was receiving that mantra, and so many people were standing outside waiting. They had heard that Ramanuja had accepted this condition and received the mantra from that guru. As soon as Ramanuja came out, the mob that was waiting there impatiently began asking him, "What kind of mantra has he given you? What is the mantra? Is it of the highest order that will deliver us all?" "Yes." "Then what is it?" "This is the mantra." (om namo narayanaya) He gave it out, and his guru chastised him. "What have you done? Don't you know what is the result?Yes, I know: eternal hell, but your mantra cannot but be fruitful, so they will be saved, although I may go to hell."

klim krishnachaitanyaya vidmahe vishwambharaya dhimahi tanno gaura prachodayat As the last word in the mantra says (prachodayat), I have nothing to fear when I repeat this mantra.