theist

Not a ridulous request at all IMO. I don't accept every story in the Srimad Bhagavatam as literally true. One of Srila Prabhupada's disciples who was having a problem accepting that an eclipse was a demons head (Rahu) who was attacking the sun and moon and wrote a letter to Srila Prabhupada expressing his doubt. Srila Prabhupada wrote back and told him that indeed it was an allegory and not to worry about such things and just "take the essence" of Srimad Bhagavatam. Other devotees will tell you that you must accept all these stories literally and it never helps to argue with them. Just try to capture the essence of what is in the pages of SB praying always to the Lord in your heart to guide you. Surely you have found knowledge in the SB that is astounding and beyond anything the world has to offer. That can't be rejected because you also find some things too much to accept. So take the essence and leave the rest. I speak only for myself here. I in no way represent any Hare Krsna group or anything but it's a fact we must pilot our own plane at the time of death. Find what works for you.

Right on. Brahmanas are supposed to teach society how to regulate itself. Instead of trying to institute a formal varnashrama in society (which is impossible IMO) devotees can speak out on the subjects you mentioned and others to bring about the desire effect (as much as possible). The trick is to put forward the position in the light of spiritual knowledge. When discussing abortion we can mention that the greatest sin is denying another soul a human body, and the karma we accumulate means we will be aborted ourselves in the future. But putting it in these terms we not only make the correct statement against abortion but we bring up reincarnation, the fact that we are not the body, the law of karma. the purpose of human life etc. These social actions when taken up in spirit of Sri Isopanishad are a form of karma/jnana-bhakti yoga. Much more productive then trying to convince people that the moon is farther away then the sun or that Rahu attacking sun is what an eclipse really is. Offering down to earth practical solutions to the worlds problems is a perfect vehicle for disseminating the real solution to all problems ...divine knowledge. I would add that although the article was directed to Iskcon England really this is up to each individual to take up, Iskcon or no Iskcon. The brahmana teaches rather he is hired by a big school or not. Big classroom or under a tree, makes no difference. It his nature.

You describe the position of an agnostic. <dl><dt class="hwrd"> </dt><dd class="hwrd">¹ag·nos·tic </dd></dl> 1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god 2: a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something <political agnostics> As you describe yourself you are basically an agnostic. This is an honest position. The atheist deny's the existence of God. The agnostic says, "I'm not sure, maybe there is a God I need further proof." The agonostic is in a good position because she holds an open mind. Now I would suggest considering the need for an intelligence behind the universe. ou have done that and say you can see the truth in the argument for intelligence but not convinced why that intellieence must be personal. Next I suggested there is an intelligence within your body. You yourself must admit that there is also a person, you, within that body. But it is clear your intelligence is limited to your body and field of thought as mine is to mine. So the question is whose intelligence is running the universe(s)? And the person behind that intelligence must be God. This is the situation to consider, to meditate on and even to pray over. Afterall the agnostic says there maybe a God so you can ask that God (if He exists) reveal the answer to you. Take some time and explore like this. Hare Krsna

You are no doubt right.

It's just a matter of time.

No need. It has no doubt been here on any of the numerous threads on the subject. I am curious ,do you consider Krishna as having been a historical person. If so what is your proof?

It's your discussion too soul.

Surely you are redeemed AM prabhu.

Not so complicated really. There is a simple direct way of understanding this. If someone was to investigate your body they would be able to find intelligence within it. The next question is does that intelligence belong to someone. Someone from the outside may not agree that there is a person behind the intelligence, but you know there is such a person because you are that person. Intelligence must be guided as in, "She used her intelligence to design that structure." Architechs have a certain intelligence that let's then work in a certain way. Do you know of any architech that is not a person, a thinking, feeling and willing being? No of course not. So the architech in this example is just a microcosm of God who is the macrocosm. Yes go slow. That way the knowledge is sure to be digested and assimliated and not just swallowed. Just swallowing is like just believing. Much more is needed to get the benefit into the cells/heart.

Hmmm.... But we all have astral bodies even now. No one is without one. When physical death takes place the soul is still covered by the astral body rather well developed spiritually or not. It is the formation of the subtle body of mind intelligence that determines our next body. It carries us to our next body like the air carries aromas. I think we might have different meanings for the term astral body.

A very important article by Jagabandhu IMO. I just encountered another such discrepency in the Uddhava Gita commentary by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur and purport by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. When referring to the word svarvasa in the first verse VCT says it means "residence in Vaikuntha" and BSS says it "refers to the planets where the demigods reside." Trying to get all these things sorted out and harmonized to perfection misses the point. It leads to splits over such issues like the fall or no fall controversy. And who cares about if there was some devastation after such and such Manu or not? Not I. The truth is I don't have much faith in the Vedic cosmology at all anyway including these Manu's etc. No doubt there is some kind of hierarchy in the universe,it is just is not important to me to know the details. So what we can imbibe from association with great devotees if not this kind of knowledge. Well there is transcendental knowledge of the self and Superself and knowledge of the relationship. What other knowledge is needed? Beyond that even we can take inspiration from their bhakti, their cent per cent dedication to the Lord and willingness to help others come to God. This encompasses all the adjunct qualities like humility etc. as was mentioned by Jagabandhu in referrence to Lord Caitanya's way of relating to others. I believe the above article goes to very essence of this sampradaya which is characterized by personal transformation and not just head knowledge.

I don't understand what you are agreeing to. " By doing so willingly, I agree." It sounds as if your position is that there is no oppurtunity to remain as ghosts as they are immediately put back in flesh. Is that it?

Apparently the vedas teach that one can kill in sense defense. Whimsical killing can never be good for one's spiritual life.

Gotta disagree with you there xexon. What you are decribing is what Theosophists have called astral shells. Astral shells are supposedly left over after the soul moves on from astral plane similar to how we leave a physical body behind when we move on from the earth plane. It is not the case that this is all there is to the phenomena of ghosts. The soul can and does inhabit astral forms just as it inhabits gross physical forms.

Yes of course. I use mouthwash to kill the nasty little critters trying to take over my gums. But where is the cutoff point for you? How do you establish that point?

I never knew of the fruit growers honey trick. I still can avoid honey easy enough. I use agave instead, But even that surely kills some creatures along the way. Honey to me seems more direct. It has bothered me ever since one devotee saw me buying some bee pollen and mentioned how it was harvested at great loss to the bees. Honey harvest also must kill some bees. Although I must admit I quit using honey as I learned it was the regurgitation from the bees stomachs. It just lost it appeal at that point. But besides that you mentioned how the bees do so much for us in pollenating our fruit trees. Do we as individuals need to take their honey too? I am not suggesting a religious prohibition against honey. There are enough rules that aren't followed now. Just interested in what cutoff point people establish for themselves. Silk is said to be ritually pure. This I have to challenge. What is the meaning of ritually pure silk considering how much suffering went into it's production. I think the purity is lost in the suffering caused. There should be restriction placed on silk usage IMO akin to leather. For an alternative there is ahimsa silk. Interesting I read somewhere in the SB that some brahmanas take a vow against tilling the soil due to the fact that small living entities in the soil will be killed. I think it was a vow. Been a long time. So it seems some things take on a deeper relevance according to the mode of nature one is in.

Some conceptions of ahimsa only go so far as to think it extends to other humans. Like say many civil rights movements see it only this far. Others include some animals like pets, the ASPCA comes to mind. They kill and eat cows, chickens and pigs by the billions but treat their pets as children. Then there are the vegans who want to include all animals and generally all humans also (except the unborn usually as most vegans if asked support abortion rights). Most would include trees if asked but it is not seen as that important. So what I am trying to get at is there are different levels of practice of ahimsa in society but the fullest I've seen is in the Krishna conscious conception where everyone is left alone in peace and used only for Krishna's service and then only in the least harmful way possible and as necessary. The question I want to raise is are we practicing ahimsa to the best level possible when we regularly use items like silk, commercial milk and honey? We have a commercial milk thread going already so what about silk and honey? Should we as individuals avoid these products in our personal lives in the name out of concern for the harm that is done to other living beings by using them?

Not sure exactly of what you mean by demons but obviously some other category. That's fine, but ghosts can also act demonically as can those in gross human form. I do agree I am speaking mainly of those who are in the human birth and death cycle and are in between death and rebirth. Some metaphysical books I've read explain that an individuals (in human form) vibrations place in him in a correspondence to varying planes of the subtle astral world. For instance one who is pious aligns himself with planes where other pious souls are staying in the inbetween state and similarily those of a cruel nature to align themselves where the cruel natured beings a clustered between births. I tend to accept this principle. One could also see this correspondence in terms of the three modes of nature. If one is dominated by a crazy nature he will more in contact with those who last died in the mode of ignorance and will be susceptible to their influence. A good example was given in a little book I read many years ago. The author gave the example of viewing the difference in scenes surrounding a bar and a church in terms of the auric vibrations each gave off. We can easily imagine angels and higher beings being attract to interact with those emmersed in the church's atmosphere and likewise the lower beings who would be attracted to interact with those who emmersed themselves in the bar's atmosphere. Best vibration to stay emmersed in, as we know, is the vibration from Krishna's name and all that comes with it. This is our safest position.

Naw don't be sorry. You are helping me remember God and for that I am grateful. Checked the site. There is some similarities but some differences also. On the agreement side they accept the universe as living and the form of God when taken as a whole. This is also called the virata-rupa or the Universal Form of the Lord. There is a chapter in the Bhagavad-gita where Krishna revealed His universal form to Arjuna which you might like to read. It is chapter 11 and can be read here. http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/11/en1 The link in my signature takes you to this site where many of Srila Prabhupada's books are. The difference is they consider the universe to be the all in all and the intelligence behind it impersonal. As a theist I see the universal intelligence as belonging to the Supreme Person. And like Krishna told Arjuna when talking of His wonderous universal creations said, "These are but a spark of My splendour." Seeing Krishna as the intelligent being behind the universal phenomena is a bone fide God conscious realization but it is just the beginning, just a spark. But it happens to be what I am working on because the beginning is the right place to start however we can know that beyond that there is infinetly more. God doesn't forget He is God as that site suggested. He is always in full knowledge. But they have made an important leap beyond the gross material scientists who visualize the universe as nothing more than observable phenomena. Hare Krishna

I have used this herb. What it does is makes it impossible for ine to taste the sweetness of sugar. First time I took it I went to the store and bought some vegan cookies. When I went to devour them I couldn't taste and sweetness and it was like just eatting cook flour. Really horrible. It also blocks the body's absorbtion of sugar helping in that way.

There is this term lacto-ovo-vegetarians which means consumers of eggs and dairy but no fish or other animal flesh. Both dairy and eggs are clearly animal products so strictly speaking by using either one is not really a vegetarian.

Krsna is the Supreme Person. As such He dwells in the heart of the being who is playing the role of the ghost as well as our own. Krsna promises to always protect His devotee so we should always feel dependent on Krsna and look to Krsna for protection. Chanting Krsna's name through this body or in the astral is the best protection.

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