theist

LOB, Sorry the confusion was caused I see by my embolding the wrong line for some reason. Your quote should have looked like this: The first sentence was the insult I wanted to address as my post indicates in text. sorry for the confusion.

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Vaisnavas do not worship Devi separate from Krsna or Narayana. They are never separate except in our incomplete realizations. Our realizations are incomplete because we entertain ulterior motives for our personal gain. The materialist wants to enjoy Laxsmi separate from Vishnu so naturally he needs to try to separate them, although it's just a separation in his mind. This was the lesson of Ravana kidnaping Sita to enjoy Her apart from Rama. Of course he only had the illusion of possessing her. In fact he only possessed the illusion of Sita (maya). Vaisnavas worship them together and approach Devi and appeal to Her to please engage them in the Divine service. All cheap definitions of Vaisnavism should be abandoned.

Makes Sai baba look like little worm. And he doesn't claim to be God. Imagine if he performed these acts in India. This is one of my favorites. Chris Angel walks through glass: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=4IwcBADkz3w&NR=1

Sure that's why they did it. Every crazy fellow has a reason for doing what he does that seems to make sense to him. Their scriptures are written by the same people who held this fear for the most part, not all but most. So the point is all such acts are conducted in the mode of ignorance despite what culture or traditon engages in them. Jesus came to save these particular people from such ignorance and was crucified by them for His efforts. He went to their temple where such sacrifices were conducted and animals were being sold to be killed and offered and He overturned all their tables and drove them out of the temple with a whip. God consciousness means to sacrifice oneself to God and not some helpless little creature. I cut animal sacrificers NO SLACK including the vedic animal killers. In Krsna Book we read how Krsna and cowherd boys became hungry while playing in the forest and approached the brahmanas house for food. The brahmanas were too busy sacrificing animals to be concerned but their wives fell in love with Krsna and fed Him and His friends. Lots of lessons in that story. People will choose to do what they do and that is between them and God. The main point here for me is that all such practices, rather 'vedic' or nor not, are not Krsna bhakti, nor are they on par with Krsna bhakti, nor is there any reason we should pretend that they are.

This is the problem and is precisely why Krsna consciousness must be separted from the word Hinduism. One God only. No exceptions.

It is probably real and not just in your head. There is a conversation recorded where some of Srila Prabhupada's disciples were telling him of an Indian man in Canada (i think) who kept worshipping Shiva and they described how they were trying to get him to stop chanting Om namo shivah namaha. Srila Prabhupada told them to leave the man alone that his chanting was alright and because Lord Shiva is the greatest Vaisnava when he achieved the grace of Lord Siva Lord Siva would reveal Krsna. The point is to worship Lord Shiva as the greatest vaisnava and if you have such an attachment you should never give it up. The example Nringhadeva gave concerning Murai Gupta is a perfect example. Please study it and you will find relief from all such pressures.

Vaishnavas worship the Divine Mother. They invoke Her mercy by calling Hare or Hara. They seem to appreciate that simplicity rather what you call the "nuanced" way of offering her blood products, alcohol and cigarettes. I like their approach.

Thank you sreeram. I am not anti-hindu. I am anti-false designations. Atrocities and atrocious things have been offered to God and gods all through history and in parts of the world and they should be seen with the light of reason and condemned soundly. A case in point. We read in the Old Testament about the Jews offering animal sacifices to please God. They had rituals for sprinkling the blood around the altar and so many other nonsense rituals. As if the Lord of Divine Love could be pleased by such acts of cruelty. And not just animals. Human sacrifice happened world wide. Women, men children have met this fate from Africa to Hawaii to South America and even India as we read in the SB about the sacrifice (appearantly vedic) of man/animals, whoever that refers to. Ghastly. Abominable. Not at all excusable by using the umbrella of 'Hinduism or Vedic' to excuse the crime. This type of thing cannot be justified by claiming it is sanctioned by one's traditional spiritual books or tradition IMO. Cruelty and acts of senseless barbarity have no place in the worship of the Supreme Lord.

The point is identifying as a hindu or catholic or voodoo practioner means we are not identifying ourselves as the servant of the servant of Krsna which is our actual position and transcendental to all religious designations.

We don't scrub movements as movements, we scrub our own hearts individually.

TRANSLATION BG 17.4 Men in the mode of goodness worship the demigods; those in the mode of passion worship the demons; and those in the mode of ignorance worship ghosts and spirits. PURPORT In this verse the Supreme Personality of Godhead describes different kinds of worshipers according to their external activities. According to scriptural injunction, only the Supreme Personality of Godhead is worshipable, but those who are not very conversant with, or faithful to, the scriptural injunctions worship different objects, according to their specific situations in the modes of material nature. Those who are situated in goodness generally worship the demigods. The demigods include Brahma, Siva and others such as Indra, Candra and the sun-god. There are various demigods. Those in goodness worship a particular demigod for a particular purpose. Similarly, those who are in the mode of passion worship the demons. We recall that during the Second World War a man in Calcutta worshiped Hitler because thanks to that war he had amassed a large amount of wealth by dealing in the black market. Similarly, those in the modes of passion and ignorance generally select a powerful man to be God. They think that anyone can be worshiped as God and that the same results will be obtained. Now, it is clearly described here that those who are in the mode of passion worship and create such gods, and those who are in the mode of ignorance, in darkness, worship dead spirits. Sometimes people worship at the tomb of some dead man. Sexual service is also considered to be in the mode of darkness. Similarly, in remote villages in India there are worshipers of ghosts. We have seen that in India the lower-class people sometimes go to the forest, and if they have knowledge that a ghost lives in a tree, they worship that tree and offer sacrifices. These different kinds of worship are not actually God worship. God worship is for persons who are transcendentally situated in pure goodness. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam (4.3.23) it is said, sattvam visuddham vasudeva-sabditam: "When a man is situated in pure goodness, he worships Vasudeva." The purport is that those who are completely purified of the material modes of nature and who are transcendentally situated can worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

This is why I have no interest in identifying myself as a Hindu.

Absolutely. Kanistha's "preach" on the "my camp" level. Higher devotees are experiencing some compassion for others. One quality of a Vaisnava is they cannot tolerate the suffering of others. The word preachng comes with a lot of baggage for us in the west due to our experiences with the fanatic Bible thumpers we have encountered. I also prefer reaching-out or sharing God consciousness with others. I had a wonderful experience while checking out my grocercies at Whole Foods a couple days ago. The checker was singing very quietly some song in an African language. I could hardly hear her but she was glowing in a reserved quiet joy as she sang. I asked her what she was singing and she said, "I am just singing praises to God" and "I am so happy". Her joy touched me at that moment and she changed my morning without even trying. She was connecting with the Lord through song. Philosophy? Theology? Never came up. I never asked her if she was a Christian or something else. She was just a tiny soul connecting with the Supreme Soul. Another lesson I must try to learn. At that moment she was my siksa guru. Something powerful about the simple way. Simple faith, simply opening the heart to the presence of the Lord.

I love this thinking. If you want to talk to Christians further then you can reach them through the teaching of Christ. Jesus totally was renounced to the things of this world and only approached the Lord for service. Help them break their attachment to the mundane world and encourage them to become more fervert in their devotion to Christ and The Supreme Lord. Even though the Bible has little information and much disinformation on the nature of the Lord if they become truly devoteed to Christ and try to follow His teachings they will go to planet that Prabhupada called Christ-loka and there receive further knowledge. This trying to make someone become a member of our camp is kanistha mentality.

And here is the reason no one can understand by the mind alone. We all have particular preconceptions rather known to us or not. This is what is meant that one cannot understand transcendental science by books alone. Best to take sastra as it comes to us through the mind of a Bhaktivedanta and not rely on our present minds. The mind is maze.

Yes voting wth one's feet is the only way to stop these cronnies and their game. They will never willing give up their power posts and reform. They are deeply attached to playing church. The important thing is of course that when people walk away they actually walk towards a higher reality and not just away from the GBC. As Ray said, "But that needs, ironically, a raising of consciousness so that members can actually use their intelligence long enough to hear God in their heart."

Hijacking another thread 'eh beggar. Address yourself to the thread starter's questions for a change.

It is a very good analogy that Srila Prabhupada taught us. It does however revolve on the relationship between the part and the whole. Understanding that relationship is the beginning of transcendental knowledge, call sambandha-jnana. --------------------------- Well a brick may be a wall to an ant but it takes more than one brick to make a wall. Your analogy of taking away all the individual bricks and there is no wall left is Buddhism. Buddha supposedly taught this meditation: I see the lotus petal, I see the stem, I see the leaf, but I do not see a lotus flower. This is called neti neti or simply negating one thing after another until you come to the void. Krsna consciousness is not in anyway like this. No analogy can adequately explain Krsna's position but I will try to give some indication. We have the Sun and the particles of sunshine that emanate from the Sun. Now imagine all the particles of sunshine disappearing in at the same instant. Unlike a brick wall example the Sun would not be effected. It would still be there in the sky. The next instant the particles of sunlight would be replaced. So this shows us that the Sun globe is independent on the particles for it's existence. But if we remove the Sun globe the sun particles will simulataneously disappear also. In this way the particles are 100% dependent on the Sun globe for their existence. So it is between God and us.

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Dark Warrior, I suggest you upgrade your definition of the word vaisnava. This is from Bhaktisiddhanta's vaisnavism Real and Apparent

This thread is over 3 years old.

Another nonsense statement. You obviously know little of Gaudiya philosohy. Krsna says in the gita "In one sense I am everything, yet I am independent." God is more than everything.

Nonsense. I am not into word games for word games sake. "Don't mistake my finger for the Moon." -Lao Tzu

Your question is not unique. It is one everyone must ask. The answer is clearly is Srila Pabhupada's books. There is no mystery to the guru question and the continuation of the parampara. basicallyt an example of how transcendental knowledge is passed on is on every page of his books. The problem is people don't recognize it due to mundane factors. Just as krsna Himself is right before our face right now but we can't see Him because we don't want to. Other than that I have nothng to say that Pretender hasn't covered.