theist

Sunds, the Swedes have developed a third option...freeze drying the corpse and fertilizing a new tree with the remains. See post #16 on the first page. Best of both options. Not very wide spread at the moment but I think it should be.

Vedavyasadeva was an example. We could also bring up the plays of Rupa Gosvami or the Govinda-lilartam of Krsnadas Kaviraja.

The funny thing is what got me mad was him saying I reject the form of the Lord? You as an Advaitin do reject that from and we know we are both in deep disagreement on that issue. I just hate being so mischaracterized. Anyway we must honor sandra's request posted just above. Nor more bickering.

Thanks bija. You are the only one I have mentioned this too that took the time to really listen and not just flame me as a "mayavadi" or heretic.

I am going somewhere with this line and you just provided the perfect segway. So Vedavyasa penned his realizations of the tenth canto having experienced them in his heart. My question is does it make a difference if the Krsna-lila he saw in his heart had already been played out in the earthly 3d Vrndavan or not? That is would the Lord's pastimes be any less transcendental if they only appeared in heart of Vyasadeva? Is Krsna appearance in the heart of Vyasadeva any less then his appearance in the hearts, mind. womb and prision cell of Vasudeva and Devaki? Now if we can accept that the appearance of the Lord in the heart of his pure and empowered devotee, in this case Vyasadeva, is ever much as transcendental as His appearance in Kamsa's prision then there is no basis for ever calling the appearance of the Lord fictional in the heart and mind of Vysadeva. And that would hold true even if that appearance of the Lord only took place in the heart and mind of Vyasadeva and never on the earthly 3d plane. There is nothing special about the 3d earth dimension that could add anything to the transcendental quality of Krsna's appearance or pastimes. Transcendence cannot be added to or subtracted from. And it is on this basis that I accept the LITERAL occurance of Krsna-lila and the Vrndavan pastimes. From this perspective there is absolutely no need to harmonize the pastimes themselves with the structure of the 3d world in terms of time and space i.e. Ugrasena's trillions of bodyguards. From this perspective there is no disharmony to harmonize. Works for me.

It is said he is a Skatya-vesa avatar empowered to pen the Veda. Thus the term literary incarnation. But from another angle can the Supreme Lord not incarnate in the form of literaure itself? Most would agree I think. edit: I see Vysadeva's position has been identified already.

Dark Warrior. Speak for yourself and do not speak for me. Now here is a good example of what a brain dead character you are. I have never called myself a Vaisnava and I accept the form of Krsna as eternal and the source of the brahmajyoti and everything else. I must say there is something in your personality that brings out the worst in me. Presently I would like to wring your scrawny little neck for that last comment. As was just pointed out you are so clueless as to consider Vaisnavism as a religion that you can join. You poor little sectarian soul you.

What a display. Thanks to those that actually acknowledged the thread starter and honored her question and to those that called for a more courtious discussion. IMO both Dark Warrior and LOB should be suspended from participating until they can grow up and learn some common manners. The seriousness at which you both take yourselves is an embarassment to behold on a public forum.

I see two types of Literary Incarnations of God. One type is Vysadeva who gave us the written scripture and another is the Lord Himself appearing in the form of literature. Is this agreeable?

Yes you do.

Exactly! There are two ways to approach any endeavor. 1. As a servant of the Lord. 2.As an exploiter. As regards to the resources of the world we can approach them in the spirit of Sri Isopanishad or as caretakers of our Masters earthly estate and maintain things according to His will or we can grab as much as possible as fast possible for our immediate sense gratification & the future be damned. As your article above shows that damned future is arriving now.

Noted Hitler was a demon. Also noted was that Churchill was not mentioned. He said Lenin and Stalin.

Your welcome sanatan. I post this letter often hoping it will bring peace to others minds in this regard as it has mine. Sometimes people miss the point and think Srila Prabhupada's main point is that some of these things are allegories. What I see as his main point is that we should not get hung up on such things and become distract from the essence of Srimad Bhagavatam. Cosmology is certainly not the essence of SB nor are eclipses and such. Hare Krishna

This letter set me free and pointed me to the real path. The three word phrase "take the essence" says it all IMO. We are to be essence seekers and the quintessence is Krishna. We must be careful not to get so hung up in the academic, scientific or philosophical styles of seeking that we forget what/WHO we are really looking for. Some may wish to save this letter to file. Letter to: Krsnadasa — Vrindaban 7 November, 1972 72-11-07 My Dear Krsnadasa, Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated October 30, 1972, and I have noted the contents. It appears that you are again constantly disturbed by the same nonsense doubts. These things are not very important, we may not waste our time with these insignificant questions. If we are seeking to find out some fault, maya will give us all facility to find any small thing and make it very big, that is maya. But such questions as yours: why there is so-called discrepancy between the views of Bhagavat and modern scientists regarding the moon and other planets, and whether Hitler is good or bad man, these are most insignificant matters, and for anyone who is sincerely convinced that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, for him these questions do not arise. Our information comes from Vedas, and if we believe Krishna, that vedaham samatitani vartamanani carjuna bhavisyani ca bhutani mam tu veda na kascana [bg. 7.26] that He knows everything, and "vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedanta-krd veda-vid eva caham [bg. 15.15],'' that Krishna is non-different from Vedas, then these questions do not arise. But because you have asked me, I am your spiritual master, I must try to answer to your satisfaction. Yes, sometimes in Vedas such things like the asura's decapitated head chasing after Candraloka, sometimes it is explained allegorically. Just like now we are explaining in 4th Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam the story of King Puranjana. Just like the living entity is living within this body, and the body is described there as city with nine gates, the intelligence as the Queen. So there are sometimes allegorical explanations. So there are many things which do not corroborate with the so-called modern science, because they are explained in that way. But where is the guarantee that modern science is also correct? So we are concerned with Krishna Consciousness, and even though there is some difference of opinion between modern science and allegorical explanation in the Bhagavat, we have to take the essence of Srimad-Bhagavatam and utilize it for our higher benefit, without bothering about the correctness of the modern science or the allegorical explanation sometimes made in Srimad-Bhagavatam. But this is a fact that in each and every planet there is a predominant deity, as we have got experience in this planet there is a president, so it is not wonderful when the predominating deity fights with another predominating deity of another planet. The modern science takes everything as dead stone. We take it for granted that everything is being manipulated by a person in each and every affair of the cosmology. The modern scientists however could not make any progress in the understanding of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, therefore we do not accept modern science as very perfect. We take Krishna's version: gam avisya ca bhutani dharayamy aham ojasa pusnami causadhih sarvah somo bhutvah rasatmakah [bg. 15.13] "I become the moon,'' and "yac chandramasi yac cagnau,'' (ibid, 12) "I am the splendor of the moon,'' and "jyotisam api taj jyotis,'' [bg. 13.18] "I am the source of light in all luminous objects,'' so no one is able to give us the correct information than Krishna, that you should know. Regarding Hitler, so Hitler may be good man or bad man, so what does he help to our Krishna Consciousness movement? But it is a fact that much propaganda was made against him, that much I know, and the Britishers are first-class propagandists. And I have heard that his officers did everything without informing him, just like in our ISKCON there are so many false things: "Prabhupada said this, Prabhupada said that.'' But we have nothing to do with Hitler in our Krishna Consciousness. Do not be deviated by such ideas "Jnanam jneyam jnana-gamyam,'' (ibid), Krishna is knowledge, He is the object of knowledge, He is the goal of knowledge, and you mam evam asammudho janati purusottamam sa sarva-vid bhajati mam [bg. XV, 19] "Whoever knows Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, without doubting, is to be understood as the knower of everything, and he engages himself therefore in devotional service''—this is the understanding of advanced devotee, so my best advice to you is to agree to come to this understanding. Your ever well wisher, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

Wow 30 trillion it is. I have been to Mathura and could ALMOST believe there were that many taxi drivers and ricksaw walas chasing me for business as I left the train station...but NOT LITERALLY.

It was a bizarre time. I actually remember one such incident where I was having this discussion with a devotee selling books in Waikiki Hawaii. As we were talking I pointed to the ships and boats that were going out to sea disappearing over the horizen one after another and I asked him if he thought they all fell off the earth or if not why couldn't we see them anymore as they weren't out of our range of vision? No answer of course but it must have been those pesky demigods fooling us asuras. lol. Such a strange mixture of the most sublime knowledge in all existence with some of the most backward ideas around.

One more thing. This is like in the late seventities when Iskconites all were saying the earth was flat. YES THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. I remem challenging them with the example of airplane travel and satelitte orbits and mapping of the planet. their stock answer was "The demigods must be playing tricks on all the demons by making them think the earth is round." LOL I swear that is the truth. Anybody who was around then can confirm this embarassing chapter. Dark Warrior is still living his own version. BTW Dark Warrior do you believe the earth is flat also. Now really, goodnight.

Too boring. I'm going back to sleep.

"Mathura may have been bigger in other yugas." What you are suggesting is that the Earth itself must have been about as big as the Sun only 5,000 years ago. Remember Krishna is said to have come at the cusp of Dwapara and Kali-yuga. So you are saying that 5,000 years ago the Earth suddenly shrank from a Sun sized globe down it's present size. This type of presentation of Krsna consciousness will insure that it never be taken seriously in an educated society. Well done literalist. I rank you all up there with the Young Earth Creationists who say the earth is only 6-10,000 years old based on their (mis)-interpretation of the Bible. Afterall according to you the Earth shrank DRAMATICALLY 5,000 years to it's present size which is essentially a new earth from the previous one.

LOL. Dodge with the usual "must have been extra dimesions excuse." I simply state that it can't be true in a 3d way and I get called a heretic and then the same characters tell me it must have involved other dimsensions which is another way of saying it could not have happened in the 3d world of the earth as we know it. IOW you are saying the same thing Dark Warrior and don't even recognize it. Sheesh:rolleyes:

No matter the number. I think Prabhupada wrote six billion in Krsna book but I could be misrememebring. I'll check it. Either way it is an impossible number. Lets wait for the non-response. Dark Warrior is on-line now with us in real time. I hope he answers before I go back to sleep in a little while. edit: Glory be...he already answered. let's see if he dodged.

Dark Warrior, Please explain how Ugrsena could have accomodated his billions of bodyguards and their families in Mathura. Please don't dodge the question. We await a specific and complete answer.

Yes here we do agree. I have asked this question about Ugrsena's bodyguards several time on this forum and never gotten a good answer, still we that question these things are heretics to the orthodox Vaisnavas who for some reason think their Vaisnava position is dependent on the 3d literal interpretation of such stories. This to me says they have little faith and depth of understanding when it comes to Vaisnavism in general. Which is precisely my point in saying they are misplacing their faith . Somewhat analgous to mistaking the finger for the moon in Lao Tsu's saying.

Dark Warrior. let it suffice to say you have totally misunderstood my position entirely and I have no desire to try to explain myself further to you personally. Understanding my position is not important for anyone except myself. If anyone is curious about my position it is no secret and I will explain it but not to a person who simply wants to engage in endless silly little schoolboy debates such as yourself. You see I have no need to convert anyone else to my way of thinking. I'll speak my mind and defend my position if I deem it somehow productive to do so, otherwise not.

But Sarva, I still stand behind the point I made earlier. There is no benefit to material scientists abandoning their methods and believing in the fifth cantos version of things and they will never agree to it anyway. They will just see this type of reasoning as one more reason to not believe in God and thus this type of preaching will have an opposite effect then the desired one. It will strengthen atheism as opposed to theism. Devotees have a higher mission IMO, and that is to point to the self and Superself and the way materialistic scientists can be engaged by such intelligent and educated devotees such as Sadaputa das, is to engage them in the Intelligent Design debate. He may already do that I don't know but all I ever hear are citations about his trying to rationalize the fifth canto. Right or wrong such arguments will not bear much fruit.