theist

Go vegan!

Why? I don't even know this person. I have no opinion on his credibility or the term for that matter.

Thank you bija! Sleep is overtaking me. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Yeah baby! Now we're trackin'. What you just expressed is what I hear in these books Srila Prabhupada so kindly brought to the world's attention. "Remember Krishna and never forget Krishna." See all living beings equally as spiritsoul. See krishna living in every being. One unlimited family under God all in a oneness so deep it is unfathomable and yet never extinquishing Krishna's gift to us of our very individual selves. This is the most beautiful philosophy and conception of the Absolute Truth the world contains within it. Why do we obscure and cover this reality with the very words and actions that are meant to reveal it? This is the result of playing church too long... we end up forgeting about God. It is something like standing in a dark room and wanting to see we turn on the switch and then immediately close our eyes to the light. Endlessly working on tweaking and perfecting a religious institution strikes me as like this, a distracting from the reality. Distracting ourselves from Reality is maya's job and we are still willfully taking shelter of her tricks. Religion is meant to be a step to Reality but if we mistake religion for that Reality then we get stuck in that plane thinking "we are the pious people... so unlike the others, the infidels, the heathen, the dirty karmis." Us and them. "We of the true religion and they the hopelessly fallen. To be saved they must become like us, pray like us, take our symbols as their own, pledge allegiance to our teachers alone". It is a sad thing when those preaching the one true teaching of oneness and unity come to view themselves as being so far separated and removed from others. Clearly Prabhupad was not motivated to spread the holy name throughout the world by this sort of attitude. To be honest just as I see the need for Jesus's teachings to be saved from the Christians I see Prabhupada's teachings needing to be saved from some Hare Krishna's. I have nothing further to add. I preached this much on this topic to my own embarassment by exposing myself as a hypocrite once again.

Accepting life as guru's disciple is not like participating in a democracy or book of the month club. Disciple means to voluntarily follow the discipline prescribed by the spiritual physicain, guru. it is not a pick and choose situation. I am a picker and chooser type myself and therefore not any kind of disciple. What is problematic is other pickers and choosers who pretend and pose themselves as disciples and create so much havoc in the name of Prabhupada. Just like the so-called Christians who like to wear crosses around their neck, attend church and carry big Bibles around with them but who don't really follow the words and discipline of Lord Jesus Christ.

I don't have any real faith. I just acknowledge a certain debt. Personally I disagree with a lot all of the GV teachers agree on. I take far more of the SB as allegory then they do and and teach. I am not interested in GV traditions either innovated or so-called traditional. I can appreciate much of it but it is just not for me to practice. I just remember reading Prabhupada when he said that we Westerns have one major failing...we always change things. You know the spiritual masters requests water and we will bring milk or orange juice or almost anything but water. We speculate too much and hear too little. Too much rajas, unbalanced minds. The one thing we need to do is to control the urge to do something sometimes and just let things be 'as they are'. Prabhupada teachings fall into this category IMO.

That may only mean Krsna Chandra das reads Rocana also.

Anyone wonder why it matters to me since I have no intention of ever looking to Iskcon for siksa again and haven't for decades now? Well considering the personage of Srila Prabhupada and the mission Krishna gave to him I think everyone should care, not to the point of obsession, but should be concerned to see the pretenders to the thrown continue to obscure the teaching of God's pure servant which are meant to liberate suffering mankind from it's present fall into hell. Especially those of us in the West who carry an eternal debt to SP.

No one forced you to respond to Govinda das's letter.

Well good. Sounds like you have come around. No changes from Prabhupada's teaching and no changing in the teachings (books). You want to do something differently well so do I. Therefore we walk outside the structure, we don't try to change what Prabhupada set up to suit our own whims.

bija somehow it seems you do not understand the point being discussed. Amongst the large quantity of sound good speculation in your post there is this. You speak of the innovations Bhaktisiddhanta put in place and Srila Prabhupada also as if that is some license for any mundane person in a devotee suit to suddenly make changes to their innovations. One point is that the nature of those innovations was put in place by them BY STARTING THEIR OWN MATHA!!!!! Get the point. That is what Govinda das is advocating. Another point is that their is a scarcity of such highly elevated devotees as SBS and SP to do make the correct innovations. Making change is easy in the material world which is charaterized as the place of constant change. You sound a Barack Obama groupie who cheers when Obama says "Change" even though he has no idea what the nature of the change will be. What is needed is stripping back all the crap (CHANGE) that has already been done to Prabhupada's program by all the change junkies that think they know so much they can correct their spiritual master desires concerning his own Matha and life's work. "Clear mind"? The only clear mind is a Krsna conscious mind. "When possible"? Yeah everyone advocating changing his books and teachings thinks he speaks from a clear mind. Not even all of Srila Prabhupada's attempts were successful. The sannyasi program for instance and he was even considering dropping the second or brahminical initiation because of all the unqualified getting threads and becoming brahmanas. You will find the basis both for the attempts and even for the eventual abandonment of some programs right there in the basics of his teachings. The only change Iskcon needs to make now is to drop all the changes they have already put in place and get back to Prabhupada's program in which I see a great simplicity and purity. There will never be anything more dynamic then sankirtan. Strong tone I know but this is one subject that I am uncompromising on in my beliefs and I make no apologies for my stance or delivery.

Yes the point being even in ordinary material life the author of a book has a right to speak his own mind. The founder of a religious institution and one that bears his name as founder acarya has a right to set the doctrines of that institution. Just witness the care not to allow any change and tampering with the works of Rabindranath Tagore his estates caretakers take now that he has passed.

Yes, the Real and the Apparant. Maya's job is to always create and manifest a false representation of any manifestation of the Absolute Truth. There must always be a Paundraka with his paper mache extra arms pretending to be Visnu. It is simply the nature of this mirage like material world. This is why in our search for guru and proper teaching we must begin with and maintain our focus on Caitya guru for even though we may not be able to hear Him clearly He hears us as our innermost desires and will fulfill those desires especially of someone trying to find HIM. It's a guaruntee that we can be sure of. He will protect us from the evil Party Men aka boogeymen aka Tan Tan Makut

It's just like the Catholics who disagree with the church's stance on abortion. Instead of finding another church or even starting their own they make trouble for others by hanging around and trying to impose their views over the Popes. Don't like Prabhupada's program then do your own version of sadhana. Don't like what he says in HIS books then don't read them. The point is keep your ****ing hands off them and write your own.

Taking shelter and appealing to Krishna in such a circumstance is prayer in devotional service, it is not mixed prayer. It is times like these when Vaisnava unity is to be shown. It can also be seen as Krishna drawing His devotees more tightly to Himself causing an increased sense of dependence upon Him. He takes pleasure in rescuing His devotees and protecting their preaching efforts. From Krsna book ch.17. Since it was almost night and all the inhabitants of Vrindavana, including the cows and calves, were very tired, they decided to take their rest on the riverbank. In the middle of the night, while they were taking rest, there was suddenly a great forest fire, and it quickly appeared that the fire would soon devour all the inhabitants of Vrindavana. As soon as they felt the warmth of the fire, they immediately took shelter of Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, although He was playing just like their child. They began to say, “Our dear Krishna! O Supreme Personality of Godhead! Our dear Balarama, reservoir of all strength! Please try to save us from this all-devouring and devastating fire. We have no shelter other than You. This devastating fire will swallow us all!” Thus they prayed to Krishna, saying that they could not take any shelter other than His lotus feet. Lord Krishna, being compassionate upon His own townspeople, immediately swallowed up the whole forest fire and saved them. This was not impossible for Krishna, because He is unlimited. He has unlimited power to do anything He desires. __________________

Lord only knows how much I love people that speak in such a plain straightforward way! And the fact that I totally agree with him makes it even that much more enjoyable! -------------- Prabhupada's Way or the Highway! BY: GOVINDA DASA Jun 24, USA (SUN) — Prabhus! What is this talk about the Modernist's way or the Guru's way or the middle way? I don't know about you, but I joined the movement in the early seventies because of Srila Prabhupada. I chose his way. If someone does not like that, what are they doing here? Heavy words you may say, but think about it. How many possible ways are there? I remember a joke I read - If there were ten 'new agers' in a room there would be fifteen different philosophies (ways)! Either we are here because we want to follow Srila Prabhupada's way or we are here to cause trouble. It is as simple as that, folks. The 'Pro Choicers' would have us believe that Srila Prabhupada's instructions are too complicated for our little brains and intelligence. But they are lying. They are complicating things to confuse us. Prabhupada's way is simple. In our hearts we all know that! Our history is full of devotees who wanted to do things their way. See how many philosophical deviations / murders / abuses of children / cover-ups / managerial miss-directions / College Going Gurus / changes to our books, ad infinitum have happened and are happening in ISKCON. They are all lead by devotees who wanted to do things their way. I say it is about time we cleaned this movement up. Those who want to do it their way should do just that. They should set up their own movement. They could call it - ISK-CONS International Society for Krishna Cons - The Pros and the Cons. A whole society for people who are against ISKCON - the Conners, ISKCOners. For that is what they are. Let's not be sentimental about it. Either you are Pro Prabhupada or you are Pro Choice! If you think that you know better, then do it yourself. SOMEWHERE ELSE. !!!!! I am sick of hearing 'O ISKCON is not the same anymore.' They are right! It is not the same because of these people changing everything that they can get away with. Where will we be in ten years time if we are thinking like this now? All the devotees who are loyal to Srila Prabhupada should stand up and be counted. The 'pro choicers' should be asked to leave and form their own movement or be humble and accept Srila Prabhupada's way. Govinda das

Babaji's surely didn't but I wasn't thinking of them. Temple Deity worship is there more those of us who have no rati for the Holy Name mostly. Even though that takes in about everyone in the world I have never been that attracted to taking care of Deities. My initial brief stay in a temple was before Deities and we worship a large picture of the panca tattva. The emphasis was on street chanting even if we had to lock the temple while we were downtown in the day. Now my local temple stays in the temple during the day and locks the doors "to protect the Deities". In these two scenarios I would think it better to chant before a large picture of pancha tattva and go on sankirtan without fear of offending the Deities then to cloase the temple off from the public and worship Radha/Krishna Deities.

We have all been taking and exploiting others since time immemorial and it will take time to once again learn how to serve selflessly.

Yes but that was his personal Deity. I am speaking about Temple Deity worship. It seems that just dispensing with formal diksa might be too whimsical. I wonder what Bhaktisiddhanta died concerning that. Perhaps even in the temple setting it is not so important as I am making it out to be.

I didn't know that. thanks. How would they handle Temple Deity worship?

Not at all cbrahma. Guru is dependent only on Krsna. And the reality is we are all dependent on guru past and present from ord Bahma on down or we would never know enough to even talk of God let alone get back to Him. If one wants to engage in temple Deity worship he should still have to develop him or herself as a brahmana and that should be accompanied by a diksa ceremony because temple deity worship is a public affair and needs proper structure. Problem is now it is being over sold as THE connection to the parampara which it is not. Those who want to keep the old traditions should do so, including dhoti and sikha. No problem but everything has to be seen in proper perspective. The honey jar is not the honey. Internal diksa will still occur also as tht is the hands of Krishna and His transcendental system. We just have to quit covering it over by confusing it with pomp and circumstance and ecclesiastical rubber stamping.

My uneducated speculation on the matter is that Bhaktisiddhanta was acting in response to the society he was in which respected brahmana threads and sannyasi staffs and in an attempt to make vaisnavism more respected and to rescue it from the unscrupluous he merged GV with some of these religious traditions. I heard that and it made sense to me although I could be way off base. I also believe such a system is not workable in the west and causes more confusion then anything else. If not scrapped it should be deempasized in my opinion under the same principle in which it began, time place and circumstance. If anything today's jet set, over weight, wealthy property owning "sanyasis" only make a mockery of the renounced order. It is having a reverse effect from Bhaktisiddhanta's original intent.

There is a board here at Audarya Fellowship that has been kindly set up as a place for devotees to advertise their projects and items for sale called the Friendly Marketplace. You may want to consider posting an ad there. Good luck on your endeavor. I am hoping you will start some threads on the other subjects from your book here as well.

The standard is already there. It is Krishna's standard for human life and it is up to us to adjust to it. So many things have been relaxed to met the inadeqecies of earth inhabitants during this age. But there are some basic facts of nature that cannot be given up if we want to be considered human beings. Homosexuality is clearly opposed to the most basic laws of nature. Abortion is another abominable activity that needs to be checked and not compromised with just to get public favor. Anyway everyone can chant.

Not sure what you mean. There appears to be several documentaries there. Better to give me a synopsis please.