theist

O.K., I have re-read your post about Bhakti, etc. and I am so utterly and totally confused that I don't even know how to ask to right questions.<<

Sorry, I often have that affect on people. /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

>>Can you please explain to me in the simplest terms possible: What is the difference between Hinduism and Krishna Consciousness?<<

I can't easily understand or explain the term Hinduism. So many different philosphies seem to take shelter of that umbrella. From polytheism to monism to monotheism to god knows what else, all claim to be Hindu's, so I try to avoid the term.

Ammachi appears to be a monist."all is one, all are God" etc. with no distinctions made. This I choose to avoid.

Krsna consciousness is the highest form of theism. To be Krsna Conscious would be to see Krsna everywhere and in and as everything simultaneously.To see ourselves as both one with Him and simultaneously distinct from Him. He is the one enjoyer and all others are the enjoyed. And further, to relate to Him as the Suprem Person and have Him relate back to you as a person. To have a reciprocal loving relationship with God.

These questions are addressed on every page of A.C. Bhaktivedanta's books. That is why I really recommend his translation and purports to the Gita.

Vaisnavism is the natural funtion or state of the awakened soul. Where one is eternaly fixed in loving devotion to the Supreme Lord. This is relationship. Not that one conceives of God in some imaginary form and then merges into the formless light eventualy through that form. Krsna accepts our love and reciprocates in kind. The advanced devotees actual experience this on the eternal platform.

Right from the beginning when searching for guru it is important to pray to the Caitya-guru for direction. That is the Lord in the heart who will guide us and instruct us. Now we can't hear Him so well, but He hears us and will guide us to His representative in this world. He teaches us from within and without in this fashion.

This mantra which I am sure you know is for everyone and there is no need to wait to begin chanting it.

Hare Krsna Hare Krsna

Krsna Krsna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama

Rama Rama Hare Hare

We take this mantra from Caitanya Mahaprabhu and repeat it as much as possible. This chanting will clear up all misconceptions in due course.

In SB Canto 1 Narada Muni is described as being initiated in the previous millenium by some sages he was serving as a young boy.

Can someone please describe the nature of his initiation?

gHari, On the version of Siddartha that you have I wonder if it still has the original last scene. It was of five or six Vaisnava sadhus walking through a sparse forest(present day Vrndaban?) with shaved heads and sikas chanting bhajana's, kartals et all.

Sometime later I saw this film again and it had this scene taken out.

In those books I find answers to questions I was to dull to ask.

That raises the question of what all is meant be the wird approach?

How did so many thousands approach Prabhupada while he walked on this earth, even though they had no access to his vapuh?

I know those sentiments are correct. I find myself attached to the resentments I have formed to other people. I know I need to give them up but I don't really want to.

I am not sure of the pyschology involved but I can see it makes no sense. Yet I cling on to old patterns of anger and other negative emotions as if they have become my very self.

Hmmm... Maybe I do identify with them to that extent.

Don't neglect the front page of this site, India Divine.

http://www.indiadivine.org/

but I think it is more widely called Sweet Flag here in the west. Also I read there are at least two kinds of calamus on the market and one is definetly more medicinaly powerful than the other.

I have noticed that of the two stores I buy it from, one is always much more potent, which leads me to believe they are using the more potent variety consistently.

This verse follows Krsna das Kaviraja's explanation on the position of Krsna. He is not talking about just any controversial subject.

My mind gravitates to all sorts of arguments and discord. Poor conditioning. How to choose the proper topic worth getting into, while letting the others just go on by, is a skill I wish to develop. I am going to try and upgrade my minds need for controversy. I'll need everyone's help to remind me when they see me going astray.

This we should be able to do amongst ourselves so the moderators won't feel a need to over moderate the board, which I feel has been the case a bit lately.

TRANSLATION CC Adi 2.117

A sincere student should not neglect the discussion of such conclusions, considering them controversial, for such discussions strengthen the mind. Thus one’s mind becomes attached to Sri Krsna.

PURPORT

There are many students who, in spite of reading the Bhagavad-gétä, misunderstand Krsna because of imperfect knowledge and conclude Him to be an ordinary historical personality. This one must not do. One should be particularly careful to understand the truth about Krsna. If because of laziness one does not come to know Krsna conclusively, one will be misguided about the cult of devotion, like those who declare themselves advanced devotees and imitate the transcendental symptoms sometimes observed in liberated souls. Although the use of thoughts and arguments is a most suitable process for inducing an uninitiated person to become a devotee, neophytes in devotional service must always alertly understand Krsna through the vision of the revealed scriptures, the bona fide devotees and the spiritual master. Unless one hears about Sri Krsna from such authorities, one cannot make advancement in devotion to Sri Krsna. The revealed scriptures mention nine means of attaining devotional service, of which the first and foremost is hearing from authority. The seed of devotion cannot sprout unless watered by the process of hearing and chanting. One should submissively receive the transcendental messages from spiritually advanced sources and chant the very same messages for one’s own benefit as well as the benefit of one’s audience.

When Brahmä described the situation of pure devotees freed from the culture of empiric philosophy and fruitive actions, he recommended the process of hearing from persons who are on the path of devotion. Following in the footsteps of such liberated souls, who are able to vibrate real transcendental sound, can lead one to the highest stage of devotion, and thus one can become a mahä-bhägavata. From the teachings of Lord Caitanya Mahäprabhu to Sanätana Gosvämé (Madhya 22.65) we learn:

çästra-yuktye sunipuëa, dåòha-çraddhä yäìra

‘uttama-adhikäré’ sei täraye saàsära

“A person who is expert in understanding the conclusion of the revealed scriptures and who fully surrenders to the cause of the Lord is actually able to deliver others from the clutches of material existence.” Srila Rüpa Gosvämé, in his Upadeçämåta (3), advises that to make rapid advancement in the cult of devotional service one should be very active and should persevere in executing the duties specified in the revealed scriptures and confirmed by the spiritual master. Accepting the path of liberated souls and the association of pure devotees enriches such activities.

Imitation devotees, who wish to advertise themselves as elevated Vaiñëavas and who therefore imitate the previous äcäryas but do not follow them in principle, are condemned in the words of Srimad-Bhägavatam (2.3.24) as stone-hearted. Srila Viçvanätha Cakravarté Thäkura has commented on their stone-hearted condition as follows: bahir açru-pulakayoù sator api yad dhådayaà na vikriyeta tad açma-säram iti kaniñöhädhikäriëäm eva açru-pulakädi-mattve ’pi açma-sära-hådayatayä nindaiñä. “Those who shed tears by practice but whose hearts have not changed are to be known as stone-hearted devotees of the lowest grade. Their imitation crying, induced by artificial practice, is always condemned.” The desired change of heart referred to above is visible in the reluctance to do anything not congenial to the devotional way. To create such a change of heart, conclusive discussion about Sri Krsna and His potencies is absolutely necessary. False devotees may think that simply shedding tears will lead one to the transcendental plane, even if one has not had a factual change in heart, but such a practice is useless if there is no transcendental realization. False devotees, lacking the conclusion of transcendental knowledge, think that artificially shedding tears will deliver them. Similarly, other false devotees think that studying books of the previous äcäryas is unadvisable, like studying dry empiric philosophies. But Srila Jéva Gosvämé, following the previous äcäryas, has inculcated the conclusions of the scriptures in the six theses called the Ñaö-sandarbhas. False devotees who have very little knowledge of such conclusions fail to achieve pure devotion for want of zeal in accepting the favorable directions for devotional service given by self-realized devotees. Such false devotees are like impersonalists, who also consider devotional service no better than ordinary fruitive actions.

I agree its a measuring stick so they can know how to relate to you. It's like a default system for the mind. If you answer so&so is my guru then one program kicks in. If you give a different name another program kicks in.

Not having ungone any formal intiation it means I have to deal with the default program for solicitian to become a disciple of their guru. I never argue about any of this. My real position is, which I explain is, I recognize Srila Prabhupada as Krsna's friend and Jagat guru but I don't live up to the life as a diciple. Then the you MUST have a "living guru" program comes up in their mind. To which I give my pat response that I am not looking for a guru and I will just continue to bow to Prabhupada, chant and read books. At the time of death Krsna can do what he likes with me. I am set in this mode for life, the only forseeable change is that I get some realization and truly surrender someday to Prabhuada's instructions and agree to love Krsna.

The other automatic question for decades has been "how many rounds do you chant" to which I always respond with "not enough."

Then the person will generally walk off or may even ask me my name. That's rare though.

I agree its a measuring stick so they can know how to relate to you. It's like a default system for the mind. If you answer so&so is my guru then one program kicks in. If you give a different name another program kicks in.

Not having ungone any formal intiation it means I have to deal with the default program for solicitian to become a disciple of their guru. I never argue about any of this. My real position is, which I explain is, I recognize Srila Prabhupada as Krsna's friend and Jagat guru but I don't live up to the life as a diciple. Then the you MUST have a "living guru" program comes up in their mind. To which I give my pat response that I am not looking for a guru and I will just continue to bow to Prabhupada, chant and read books. At the time of death Krsna can do what he likes with me. I am set in this mode for life, the only forseeable change is that I get some realization and truly surrender someday to Prabhuada's instructions and agree to love Krsna.

The other automatic question for decades has been "how many rounds do you chant" to which I always respond with "not enough."

Then the person will generally walk off or may even ask me my name. That's rare though.

Selected on the basis of the pure light and intensity of their effulgence. First that must manifest.

>>A genuine rtvik of the acharya is therefore more than an ordinary guru, as he has full sanction and authority from the acharya to accept disciples on behalf of the acharya even after his visible disappearance.<<

You and I have different understandings of guru. What you term "ordinary guru" is not what I mean by guru. Actually a genuine guru has the full backing of his guru, Krsna and in fact the whole Spiritual Sky.

You describe this "ordinary guru" as one acting under his own volition. I would also becareful to avoid hearing from such a person.

Well, in answer to your question Theist, what she teaches is love and service to others. She is specifically a Bhakti person, although she emphasizes in her teachings that you can't have Bhakti without Jnana, and her work seems to be Karmic.<<

Many people use the term bhakti but sometimes the meaning varys greatly. Some people teach that bhakti is practical for this age because we are all not so sharp. But what they mean by bhakti is that eventually you will merge into you worshipful deity and realize that you are that deity yourself and that deity is also everything or the impersonal Brahman.

The Krsna devotees are teaching somthing very different and speak of bhakti as something that begins in full purity after we have achieved basic self realization.

One sees bhakti as a means to a different end,simple liberation. The other sees the practice of bhakti as the means to pure bhakti or loving devotion to the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna.

Groups often use similar terms but with very different meanings.

>>I would post her website here, but I'm not sure how that would be received by administration.<<

That's ok. I'm curious now and will do a google search to learn something more. I think this is the "hugging saint," right?

>>I will heed your advice, but I think she is the right guru for me. It's kind of like when you're in love, I think, and the know you've found ther person you want to marry and spend the rest of your life with. But I have not met her yet, and I will take my time as suggested.<<

This makes me want to strengthen my caution to you to be careful. You see i have found my eternal soul mate at least three times when i was younger.I was so sure each time. Hmmm...? I wonder where they are now? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

>>What you say about having a personal relationship with Krishna confuses me somewhat. Although Jnana yoga annoys me somewhat, I am from the Advaitist camp and I believe that God is one. Therefore theoretically I am not separate from Krishna (IMO). Having a personal relationships with Krishna seems to be a more dualist idea. I don't quite know how to synthesize these two ideas. But maybe the ideas are not even separate and I have misunderstood.<<

Lord Caitanya taught a combination simultaneous oneness and difference. Advaita is incomplete realization. Dualism persists even after attaining a realization of oneness. they don't cancel each other out but rather compliment each other.

The fact is there is a Supreme Lord and he has His own personal existence and awareness. Since we have come from Him and are therefore of the same quality there is oneness.But the fact remains that we came from him and not He from us. The example I heard and seems the most clear to me is the one of the sun and the sunrays. Krishna is the Supreme Sun, the original. And like the sun He radiates so many countless photons. We are the photons and we are unlimited and all pervading. Together we are one and can be said to make up God. Yet which photon would dare to call himself the sun. There is still only one sun, unlimited photons, but one sun. He is the chief eternal amongst all eternals.

Others here can speak to this more specifically and offer detailed scriptural references. That has never been my strong suit.

>>Theist, it looks like you're becoming my posting buddy <<

Good. I always appreciate a new friend. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Are you chantng Hare Krsna any?

T:>(quote)Does this mean that if one of Prabhupada's disciples becomes fully Krsna conscious he is no longer a disciple of Prabhupada and not welcome in his father's house? The topmost disciple is no longer welcome?(/quote)<

G:>>No. Srila Prabhupada did not quit the Gaudiya Math. But he formed his own institution for the maintenance of his disciples and followers. An acharya sets up his own institution for his disciples and followers. What the eleven "appointed" gurus did, however, was claim their guru's property to be their own and divided it up amongst themselves. Their godbrothers and godsisters were then forced to accept them as the new acharyas or leave. Reforms over the years were too late, as by that time an exodus of over 95% had occured.<<

Yes, I am aware of that fiasco. I just stated the problem with the solution. The receipe appears to be an institution

with no ther pure devotees allowed besides Srila Prabhupada.And I have noticed that those that do leave an start their own programs are then called ambitious for name and fame etc. and scorned away. I doubt that this would be Prabhupada's desire somehow.

For every three that do this perhaps only one is genuine. But to have this blanket attitude means you will have an entire institution systematically engaging in vaisnava aparadha towards that one.

It's not really my problem, I guess, but it smells like disaster.

I'll remind you. You can find your own niche here and let the rest go sailing by.

Explore the India Divine site. There is a page where you can read the Bhagavada-gita on-line right here. I woul also reccommend making use of the letters to the editor forum on the bottom. There you will get solid answers without having to sift through conflicting opinions. That in addition to discussing with us here.

Yes its always a little dangerous. If we induce them to aparadha what is the value of our attempt to communicate.

But at the same time there are so many of them that become frustrated at the lak of sound teaching and look for more 'esoteric'sources usually ending up with some mayavadi nonsense. "God is formless spiritJesus is the Father" etc.

Your web site is filling a void for sure. I see it as service to Christ Prabhupada and Krsna.Prabhupada and krsna obviously but Christ did say to peter (and to all) "..if you love me feed my sheep"

The self-effulgent guru sets up his own ashram or organization, just as Srila Prabhupada did. He does not usurp or take any of the property of his guru maharaja.

 

 

I can appreciate that and basically feel the same way. Though it does raise more questions due to the uniqueness of Iskcon's position in the world and how people can work together. Such as:

ISKCON is for disciples and followers of Srila Prabhupada, end of story.

 

 

Does this mean that if one of Prabhupada's disciples becomes fully Krsna conscious he is no longer a disciple of Prabhupada and not welcome in his father's house? The topmost disciple is no longer welcome?

Another manifestation of the problems that arise when one tries to make the current of Krsna consciousness conform to an institution rather than the institution conforming to the current of Krsna consciousness.

Good luck

haribol Priitaa,

Yes there is not an absoluely clear picture on these points that i can find. Enough to know Lord Jesus Christ is a shaktyavesa avatar. I have read where Prabhupada said he came from the Spiritual Sky but I just can't find it now. Then it could be asked when he came from the Spiritual Sky. 2,000 years ago? At the beginning of this universe? Sometime in between?

We will find it all out if we stick to this bhakti path.

I may have given the wrong impression. I don't suggest that people avoid talking to Christians. i only meant that i never bring up Radha Krsna-lila and just speak on other topics.

certainly we can help. By somehow bringing their senses into contact with Krsna through hearing some instruction or the Name. Maha-prasadam etc.

But family members have their own wills also. I've seen devotee parents become so depressed at seeing their children reject Krsna consciousness or not take to it very strongly.

Just like parents who are materialists become depressed when they see their children reject the attainments of the world and take to bhakti-yoga. And those same children become alienated from their parents when they don't understand and follow suit to some degree.

Ultimately change of heart comes about through the self surrender of each individual. Best to become a stronger and stronger devotee yourself and you will naturaly benefit everyone.

The thing is Guruvani one can decide to surrender at any second. Then you would have a self-realized soul, capable of delivering a soul to Krsna. This could be you. You may decide to internaly as well as externally surrender fully to Krsna. Would it make sense then for Iskcon to shut its doors to you? Of course not.

Then what happens to the ritvik conception?

You see I agree with a lot of what the ritviks say in terms of Prabhupada's continued presence. What I disagree with is the need to ritualize it.

The works of previous acarya's are still living. I don't need some offical priest to ok my partaking of that living reality.

I do need Krsna's grace to have real access to the import or inner meanings of what is written, that I readily admit. But what potency can come from some officiating priest?

A perfect disciple is real guru. So they are saying no more real disciples in my org?

ISKCON

06/28/03 12:00 PM Edit Reply

Are most people here part of the Krishna Consciousness movement? Is that the premise for this discussion forum. It doesn't really say anywhere what the underlying philosophy is here.

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iskcon-not iskcon-rest of the world?:-) [re: Dayala]

06/28/03 01:02 PM Edit Reply

krsna consciousness in general terms or iskcon?

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purpose [re: Dayala]

06/28/03 01:12 PM Edit Reply

Dayala,

Many different folks use this form. Here you find members of ISKCON, ex-members,followers of other Krishna conscious teachers outside of the ISKCON org., Hindus, the occasional Muslim, Christian or Buddhist and others. Some times we exhibit the maturity to deal with the diversity better than others.

The point is,its not really a homogenus group but mostly aspiring devotees of various levels of realization.

I was told audarya means magnanimus. Which is the goal of this forum. To be open, generous and accepting. We do get into our squabbles most of which you should probably just ignore.

You should feel that you have found a place where your search for truth will be supported. We all expect to have our positions challenged along the way as well. That can be uncomfortable at times but I find it helpful for my growth.

So welcome and Hare Krishna

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Dayal I brought this thread over here because it was locked for some reason. That was me in the previous post. I wanted to keep this all important topic and question of yours open for more dialouge with you.

Hare Krsna

clearly. I agree with gHari. Why would the word grand-disciple even arise otherwise?

This is also in harmony with Prabhupada's books. To take this one short conversation and draw a conclusion from it that is in opposition to all else Prabhupada wrote and said on the issue does not make sense to me.

No I have stated everything is my proof including myself. You don't accept it. That's ok, it's your right. Now I am asking for your proof that there is no God.

But what to speak of that, you can't even prove that life comes from matter. Which is the only alternative to life having a spiritual source.

Are you now going to say there is no life?

If you are honest you will say you are an agnostic and not sure if thee is a God or not.