theist

 

well, perhaps you have heard of ekalavya who built the mud idol of his chosen guru dronachaarya and learnt all knowledge of weaponry by own endeavour . and he was no less than dronacharya's gretest disciple arjuna !

 

this , he achieved without even having recieved a single instruction from his manas-guru dronachaarya .

 

it is clearly not relevant whether you have met prabupada personally or have taken inititation within the order started by him . if his teachings appeal to your mind above the rest and you follow it , you are his disciple . manas guru- mental guru ! stop denying yourself !

 

and if you deny him as your guru then stop promoting any of this philosophy . there's no other way round !

 

Yes I have heard of ekalavya.

 

We have different understanding of the word disciple. One of the basic requirements to be a disciple of Srila Prabhupada is to chant at least 16 rounds of the Hare Krishna mantra daily. No way do I even come close to this.

 

I am not trying to put myself down or to sound humble I am simply trying for an honest self evaluation.

 

And where do you get off telling me I should stop promoting his philosophy?

 

Anyway back to the thread topic.

 

Dear Mayor of the City,

I am a "_________" so, accordingly I am expressing my views as based on the Vedas of ancient India . . .

 

or,

 

Dear Congress member, or,

Dear Television News Person, or,

Dear Local Council member, or,

Dear Police Chief member, or,

 

I'm seeking a secular [non-sectarian] nomenclature for a non-accredited Scholar/activist/self-motivated spokesman of societal Issues from the Vedic POV ---without the stumbling-blocks of disparagement by the secular party that I will be approaching.

 

Student of Eastern Philosophy maybe if you want to keep it kind of vague.

Primate,

 

I take eternal fire to refer to material desires. Eternal damnation is to be eternally afflicted by these incessant desires driving us deeper into madness while never finding any satisfaction.

 

Eternal damnation then can be seen as synonomous with "eternally conditioned" for to be condition to material life is clearly a damned state of being.

 

What the Popes or other Christians think it means may be something quite different.

 

I am convinced one cannot make much sense philosophically of the Bible until one has read Vaisnava literature, and then it just opens up.

 

SEEKING ADVISE:

 

If I present myself to the public media [ie: Tele, Newsprint, Radio] to debate topics like 'Cow-protection', 'Vegetarianism', 'Meditation', 'Yoga' etc:

 

How should I (I am an Iskcon Hare Krishna Devotee) present myself?

Do I say, 'I am an Orthodox-Hindu'?

 

Which Title is the least denominational --yet presumably accepted as authentic? Keep in mind that I would assume that I would be heavy-handed and unbending and thus old-school Orthodox.

 

Please advise.

 

People are always seeking a label to place on me and causing a similar problem. I just tell them I am a soul trying to live a God conscious life and learn about God. I mention that for learning about the personal attributes of God i find the teachings of Srila Prabhupada to be astonishing and so concentrate there while making it clear I am not a member of any religious institution or personal disciple of his.

 

I also make it very clear I am not a Hindu or Christian or any such thing.

 

People feel they need categorize everyone they meet so they can call upon their preconceived vision of what you are as a means of relating to you. Of course then they are not relating to you at all but as a part you are playing according to their pre-determined script which they carry in there head.

 

We all do this as it is the way of the material world of names and phantom forms.

 

The time of death isn't just a split second moment, but the entire process of the soul exiting the body and what happens next. At that stage of leaving the body, the soul is conscious and aware, even if he wasnt aware while in the body (due to a medical condition or some other problem).

 

In that conscious state, while having exited the body, if one then turns his consciousness to Krishna, then Krishna delivers him. If on the other hand he turns his consciousness onto his bodily attachments, lamenting the loss of his body, family, etc., then he gets another chance to enjoy these things through rebirth.

 

Sometimes one is conscious both before death and after having left the body, so there is no real difference. But in the case of someone who is unconscious prior to death, the difference in awareness is more drastic prior to leaving the body and after having exited the body. In that situation he still has time to think of Krishna once his awareness is restored. And as you have pointed out, the consciousness at that stage is primarily determined but what you did in life.

 

We can practice for this every single day. This is the gift of God. When you wake up from your dream, what do you think about? You can choose to immediately think of Krishna and accept that the dream was false, or you can try to hold on to that dream and continue living your imaginary life.

 

Practice becoming detached from the dreams when you wake up and immediately put your consciousness on Lord Krishna. Doing this daily will prepare us for a similar test at the point of death, where we are given the opportunity to give up the real dream of this world.

 

Wow. This is some very subtle teaching.

 

I for one am not trying to have it both ways. You are simply appealing to your authority (Swami Prabhupada) instead of trying to evaluate the issue objectively. The arguments of Theist are cogent and strong. Apparently Prabhupada is not his authority - neither is he mine.

 

 

Nor am I trying to have it both ways. In all my posts over the last decade you will not find one where I claim to be a disciple of any guru including Srila Prabhupada. Not that Srila Prabhupada is not Jagad guru, i fully accept that he is, but to be a disciple of someone means to be fully under the discipline that he prescribes. So I don't qualify as a disciple.

 

I have chosen to try and learn about Krishna from the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. I have disagreements with him on some other points, like accepting the cosmology of the SB. the literal historical reading of many of the happening recorded in the Puranas and Mahabharata and the need for cows milk.

 

I do accept Srila Prabhupada's position as a 100% pure devotee of Lord krishna and therefore any action committed by him in the service of Lord Krishna is faultless although from the material point of view there may be some visible fault.

 

A most rare position. Everyone is that I see I consider to be still karmically bound to greater and lesser degree

 

On another point I don't believe in blindly accepting what any guru says. Srila Prabhupada writes in a Gita purport that "blind following is condemned". I take those words seriously.

 

These points are not a secret. I have stated them many times before when needed.

 

The way I see it learning how to be Krishna conscious in the material world may entail making different choices on some things than the predecessors have done. An example would be on one hand Lord Caitanya clearly said there are no hard and fast rules for chanting the names of God. yet Srila Prabhupada was very specific on how he wanted kiratans to be conducted in his temples with certain songs and tunes. That was for his Iskcon.

 

This doesn't mean others who sing with different instruments and tunes outside of Iskcon are somehow "unbonedfide" or wrong.

 

Anyway this is another subject.

 

On this cow protection thing it is up to each individual to reconcile within themselves the fact that when they offer commercial milk to Krishna they are supporting the cow slaughter industry and therefore DIRECTLY going against the instruction to protect cows.

 

Do we really think Krishna is going to die without our offering of milk from unprotected cows? This is silliness.

 

"But the tortured and murdered cows get some sukriti fromthe offering so we are really being compassionate upon them". This is one of the lamest arguements going. It isan attempt at using the mercy killing argument.

 

here is an idea for a substitute. Make some almond milk to offer to Krishna. No tree is hurt in the process and the soul of the almond trees will get sukriti and the devotees won't be seen to be engaged in hypocrisy on the cow protection issue.

 

After the soul in the cow body and the soul in the almond tree are to be seen on an equal level so why not help them?

You need to get some basic education on this subject gHari. The fact there are so many cows is because the demons keep the cows pregnant and having offspring for profit. Now they find they have over produced and hurt their own market.

 

Learn the subject just a little bit then have an opinion. Blaming vegans for the death of these cows is really out there.

 

The zoo.

 

Send them to India.

 

Scrap the tractor.

 

It's a tough problem - we don't want to end the cow species.

 

Maybe the machines will run out of gas and live male cows will come back into style. Maybe kindness and decency will come back into vogue.

 

 

There is hope.

 

Kindness and decency means you stop supporting cow slaughter just so you can have a glass of milk with your breakfast. Give up your wishing for "hope" and do something practical.

We know that death is rarely a serene event. Long term illness to death often means heavy medication leading up to the soul's departure. These drugs heavily influence the brain & mind, dulling it considerably in most cases.

 

Sometimes death arrives suddenly and violently as in a car wreck, some other accident like falling off a high place or even murder. The confusion and fear at such times will be considerable.

 

We can and must do our best to prepare ourselves but that will always be lacking. At least though we can show Krishna we are serious in our efforts and rely on His promise to remember what we have and carry what we lack.

 

 

Bg TRANSLATION 9.22

But those who worship Me with devotion, meditating on My transcendental form-to them I carry what they lack and preserve what they have.

 

 

PURPORT

One who is unable to live for a moment without Kṛṣṇa consciousness cannot but think of Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours, being engaged in devotional service by hearing, chanting, remembering, offering prayers, worshiping, serving the lotus feet of the Lord, rendering other services, cultivating friendship and surrendering fully to the Lord. Such activities are all auspicious and full of spiritual potencies; indeed, they make the devotee perfect in self-realization. Then his only desire is to achieve the association of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is called yoga. By the mercy of the Lord, such a devotee never comes back to this material condition of life. Kṣema refers to the merciful protection of the Lord. The Lord helps the devotee to achieve Kṛṣṇa consciousness by yoga, and when he becomes fully Kṛṣṇa conscious the Lord protects him from falling down to a miserable conditioned life.

 

 

That's so true... Alzeimers , or any such condition of waking state. Since we are not even the (material)mind, which cannot be relied upon to recall anything including the Lord and His Holy Names, why not just hand ourself over to Him - the most merciful Krshna.

 

I read a story about one Swamiji who was in hospital in critical condition, and the doctors heard this on the stethoscope : "Hare Krshna Hare Krshna Krshna Krshna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare".

 

Now that is chanting from the heart.

Really very beautiful Smaranam.

 

What of the Alzheimer sufferer that can't even remember his own name let alone God's at the time of death? It could be anyone of us. The need to place ourselves under the mercy of the Lord is an imperative. Why should we let one more moment pass before we completely humble ourselves before Him? We have no idea what the next moment will bring.

 

Not to do so is gambling with our very selves at stake.

No matter how engaged in devotional practice we may think we are we should not take it for granted that we will remember Krishna at the time of death.

Success in Krishna consciousness is not a mechanical thing. It is personal and is dependant on the mercy of the Lord.

The priests who were conducting the sacrifice for King Nabhi to have a son like the Supreme Person prayed:

 

TRANSLATION Srimad Bhagavatam 5.3.12

 

Dear Lord, we may not be able to remember Your name, form and qualities due to stumbling, hunger, falling down, yawning or being in a miserable diseased condition at the time of death when there is a high fever. We therefore pray unto You, O Lord, for You are very affectionate to Your devotees. Please help us remember You and utter Your holy names, attributes and activities, which can dispel all the reactions of our sinful lives.

 

PURPORT

The real success in life is ante nārāyaṇa-smṛti—remembering the holy name, attributes, activities and form of the Lord at the time of death. Although we may be engaged in the Lord’s devotional service in the temple, material conditions are so tough and inevitable that we may forget the Lord at the time of death due to a diseased condition or mental derangement. Therefore we should pray to the Lord to be able to remember His lotus feet without fail at the time of death, when we are in such a precarious condition. In this regard, one may also see Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (6.2.9–10 and 14–15).

 

But the question relates to people who buy milk, not meat.Female cows are allowed to live a while because their milk produces revenue for the exploiters.

So because cows marked for dairy production are allowed to live a little longer before being slaughtered it makes it ok?!? They are allowed to live by the demon exploiters because they want to 1) profit off their milk production. 2) profit off the sale of calves to be slaughtered for veal. 3) Produce more female calves for dairy production replacing their mothers when the mothers are sent to slaughter.

 

 

 

 

If the cows were only good for meat, they would be murdered after fattening, along with the males. Is this what we want?

Did it ever occur to you that animals like cows have a God given life unto themselves? You have bought into the demonic idea that their only purpose was for the sense pleasure of human beings.

 

There is no way to tweek the factory farming process here and there to make any aspect of it ok, as in letting some live longer while they are being exploited for their milk before being slaughtered is tolerable somehow.

 

The people who won't buy their share of milk are killing these 103,000 cows.

 

You are so funny sometimes gHari.

TRANSLATION

Completely rejecting all religious activities which are materially motivated, this Bhāgavata Purāṇa propounds the highest truth, which is understandable by those devotees who are fully pure in heart. The highest truth is reality distinguished from illusion for the welfare of all. Such truth uproots the threefold miseries. This beautiful Bhāgavatam, compiled by the great sage Vyāsadeva [in his maturity], is sufficient in itself for God realization. What is the need of any other scripture? As soon as one attentively and submissively hears the message of Bhāgavatam, by this culture of knowledge the Supreme Lord is established within his heart.

Babrhu,

 

Kurma das's arguement is a health based one, listing various sources that claimed to show the detrimental effects on the body of the foods in question. I have nothing to say about that. Some praise both foods for their health bestowing properities. Maybe garlic and onions have benefical and detrimental properties both.

 

I wonder how he would deal with commercial cow's milk. Would he be against the use of commercial cow's milk (blood milk) whose list of health destroying properties is far more agreed upon then anything relating to onion and garlic.

 

Just a curiousity on my part.

Try to understand this sentence from Srila Prabhupada.

"The protection of cows maintains the most miraculous form of food, i.e., milk for maintaining the finer tissues of the brain for understanding higher aims of life." Srila Prabhupada

.

gHari's arguement is an old one I have offered by the meat eaters against vegetarians and vegan who protest eating meat.

 

Buying milk from enslaved and slaughtered cows is direct support to the cow killers and bears no resemblance to the scenario he presents.

 

When you purchase meat or milk that is a direct request for them to slaughter more cows. It's called demand and supply as they replace that which you purchased.

 

Silly word games won't free you from the karma.

Superstition or simple natural phenomenon? It doesn't matter as long as we mark the occurence with increased chanting of the Lord's Holy Names. We can chant to be protected from the evil influence of the event, or to be protected from repeated birth and death and most certainly just to please the Lord. It's all good.

 

 

From the Sampradaya Sun

Solar Eclipse pits 'Superstition' against Science

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pranam

 

 

 

are we not playing with words here?

 

Be honest is it the same as saying becoming indifferent to Bhagvat puran?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

You may be hearing word games but I am not playing any. Prabhupada said not to be concerned with the differences between the allegorical stories in Bhagvatam vs. modern science. Instead he advised to "take the essence" of Srimad Bhagavatam and not be bothered by lesser subject matters. Yes I said lesser subject matters. Who the present manu is irrelevant when compared to krishna-lila. I am indifferent to the manu's and kings of old or the wars between the asuras and devas for planetary control.

 

But I give up on you. I am totally indifferent to what is your opinon on the matter.

 

Hare Krishna

 

Now, decades later, these things can be addressed slowly with more cow protection especially for temples - not that temples should turn vegan. no !

 

What the vegan devotees are saying is that if we do nothing and simply accept commercial milk, we are not moving forward towards the goal that the Guru set.

 

 

Exactly! This point of cow protection being the essential point has been stated many times but for some reason rarely acknowledged.

 

I personally cannot digest milk products so would be vegan in any case but no one I know expects this for the temples.

 

Bhagvat also teaches various material subject and as already been pointed out by someone, would you then become indifferent to Bhagvat puran?

 

I will answer this one. Yes one should also become indifferent to all material subject matter by becoming Krishna conscious, even in the Bhagavat Purana.

Ganeshprasad,

 

You continue to ignore the post I kept quoting from Dasomi. This is my third and last request to you to respond in detail to that post. It is obvious why you want to ignore but until that is done there really is nothing more to add to our conversation.

 

Hare Krishna

Thanks JNdas and crew.