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Everything posted by aqua3

  1. Dear Subham-ji, Many many apologies for not responding to you immediately. One reason is pre-occupation with another topic in another group - which is again a heavy topic on the rationale and scriptural pramana for pithru tarpanam. That series will keep me occupied for one more week. The other reason is, as usual, that your query / opinion is so impregnated with powerful views that it would require a very lengthy response.On the face of it my reaction to your notions in your mail is both yes and no. Upanishads do support strongly the creation of name, form and works as being real as also a physical universe. I suggest you read the complete translation of Chandogya upanishad (available in wikipedia, or any other website,) before i start a discussion on this. This upanishad is very simple to understand but elaborate on the question of creation, on who the creator is and on how the individual souls come to get such name, form and works - the Release from which is termed as moksha. I have drawn the rationale of pithru tarpanam and the machanism of how the offerings reach pithrus, from this upanishad only. Aithareya upansihad, that comes after Rig veda is completely about creation at micro and macro levels. It will set at rest your doubts about Consciousness and how creation began etc.This upanishad also is available on net.
  2. Since the notions contained in the basic pramana sruti are not adhered to, I am not replying to this mail. ------------------- Namaskar Bheda is not in Atma, which is uncuttable and which though ONE appears to be many. Bheda is between the GREAT LORD and the creation. ********************************** It is also incorrect approach to say that atman will reach some state as in ‘atman though it has reached Brahman’ phrase above. It never fell.....................
  3. Please find the replies along with your objections. ************ It is in this context that creation of worlds by Vishwamithra for the sake of Trishanku was immediately discouraged, because, creation is an exclusive prerogative of Brahman. The atman though it has reached Brahman hood is not entitled to do creation. (Brahma sutras), and in this way the bheda between Brahman and the released Atman is established. ******************** To start with, I have picked the above. Acqua Ji, though you provide correct information that ‘atman ----- is not entitled to do creation (Brahma sutras)’, but the next part: ‘and in this way the bheda between Brahman and the released Atman is established’, is extremely far fetched. Brahma Sutra does not say that Brahman exists to create. It does not say that creation is an exclusive prerogative of Brahman. Rather it says that acts of creation, maintenance, and destruction proceed from him. One who is and remains sankalpa free, does not create and does not come back. Atma has no role in creation. Gunas only create. It is ignorant mind which attributes creation to the Self. ----------------------------- Reply : You have probably taken the 2 nd Brahma sutra alone on its face value. Please read the entire Brahma sutras with the commetaries by any acharya you wish to follow. ------------------- Your objection:- This bheda could only be established if one assumed that the assertion ‘creation is an exclusive prerogative of Brahman’ was correct. ------- Reply from Aithareya upanishad:- Chapter 1- Section-1 1. The Self only verily all this was in the beginning. Nothing else whatsoever stirred. He (the Self) thought, "Let me now create the worlds." 2. He then created all these worlds. He created water, light rays, death and elements such as water. Above the heaven is water. The heaven supports it. The light rays are the space. Death is the earth. That which are below are also waters. From Brahma sutra 4-4-17:- " (The released selves attain all powers of the Lord)except in the matter of cosmic activities, on account of the (Lord being) the subject matter (of all texts, wherein the cosmic activity is described), and because also, of the non-proximity (of the Released selves)" For details read the commentary -they are avialable on net. ( you will find at number of places in many upanishads the similar notion that "it willed , may I become many and it became many." indicating that creation is the exclusive prerogative of the Brahman) The Will mentioned here has further been explained in Chandogya upanishad. Please read the entire Chandogya to understand everything about Creation and His Will. -------------- your objection:- It is also incorrect approach to say that atman will reach some state as in ‘atman though it has reached Brahman’ phrase above. ----------- Reply to this from Mundaka upanishad--- Mundaka-- Third Chapter (1)Two birds, united always and known by the same name, closely cling to the same tree. One of them eats the sweet fruit; the other looks on without eating. (2)Seated on the same tree, the jiva moans, bewildered by his impotence. But when he beholds the other, the Lord worshipped by all, and His glory, he then becomes free from grief. ( for better understanding, please read the commetaries.) --------------- You said:- It never fell, where will it reach? It can only throw away the veener of verbosity and logic and then remain as it is always. - My reply:- I am mute and amused reading the above Which one fell? Which one will reach what? And why? I refrain to commet. But I want to remind everyone desiring this Knowledge to keep in mind Ramakrishna's story on the villager who goes to see the King. (This story has been given by me in one of my posts in this forum.) Thanks.
  4. Immortality is the nature of the Jiva. If we bring in "I" ness, it means we are getting embroiled into the created tattwas from Mahat onwards (or downwards). Liberation takes place when the Jiva realises its immortality status and ceases to be confined within mortal coils. Yes Liberation is at the individual level. It used to be said that Krishna leela of ecah gopika finding Him with herself only simultaneously is to depict that Liberation or moksha is an individual experience, between the jiva and the Lord. There are literature on how or what happens at the time of Liberation, just prior to Liberation and after Liberation. Brahma sutras are authentic texts in this regard. Though I am not getting into the details of this, due to the length of the subject, let me just post an edited portion from one of my posts in another series, on whether Draupadi was a mumukshu, to show what this Liberation is and how we can visualise it. Now the other question: ------------------------ now my question is-- for a Sadhaka to attain liberation is it required that Peace (and hence Dharma) should exist at the society where he lives? or the social conditions may just help accelerate a Sadhaka to his goal? or social conditions have no relation at all towards individual Liberation? ______ The reply for this is in BG 2-53. The mind in itself and in its place must remain unperturbed come whatever may be the surrounding. The internal environment(within the mind) is important irrespective of what the external environment be.
  5. Dear Shoba-Malaysia, Seeing your interest in the topic under discusion, I thought I can share some of my mails on different issues in Ramayana, including agni pravesh, sita's exile, vaali vadam and Sita's lamnet whether she has committed any offence to have come to be separated from RAma, with specific reference to her worry ' sthreeyam purusha vigraham' (is it because I told Rama when he refused to take me to van vaas, that not knowing that he is a woman in man's garb, my father has married me to him, that I am now suffering separation from him with no sign of Rama turning up to release me' - a worry expressed by Sita in Ashoka vana in Sundhara khanda). These mails have already been published in other groups and they are detailed and voluminous to be reproduced here. If you are interested, please give your mail ID, I will send them to you. For immediate reference, you may read my mail in this group itself under the thread Vaali vadam (or Vaali and Rama). regards, jayasree
  6. Yes, i have heard of many such techniques of meditation, though upanishads too speak of 32 such techniques called as vidyas. In commentaries to Brahma sutras, I have come across perception of different kind, namely Yogic perception, which can be attained by certain yogic power. Mostly this involves the yogin's efforts by withdrawing his senses and mind to achieve specific perceptions which can not be otherwise experienced. But this view has not been accepted by all. It is another means of knowledge and it is not that it is a totally different perception. But these yogic practices are in the decline in this yuga. Bhakti marga and renunciation (sharanagathi) are supposed to be the easy routes in Kali yuga. If all routes lead to Rome, that means all these practices do lead to Liberation only. Here Amruth, as you have said is knowledge and it is knowledge of the Self that leads to Liberation. Knowledge is immortal and knowledge of the imoortality of the Self makes one cross the mortal barriers. That is how one becomes immortal. Immortality of the body can not happen. One instance is that Vishwamithra was discouraged from sending Trishanku to heavens in his mortal frame. In BG too, we come across verses which claerly say that after death only, do the jivas reach Him. Bhagavan clearly rejects the idea of jeevan mukthi in Gita. Another rationale is that whatever has had a beginning must have an end someday, some time. Since physical existance is due to prakruthi which manifests by means of pancheekaraN (refer BG), an end to this physical existance will have to happen when things reverse. Therefore immortality can not be for physical body. Immortalitty is only for the kshethragjyan not the kshethram. One clarity that we must have is that jivas and Brahman are immortal always, though there is a difference in opinion as per the school of thought that ones professes. But the upanishadic verse, repeated in quite a few upanishads about two birds sitting in a tree, one eating the fruit of karma and the other not eating anything but shining, is too strong to ignore. This verse makes it clear that immortality is for only two sets, for Barhman and for the jivas. This means that whenever and wherever immortality is being spoken of, it must be with reference to some specific ccontext and within some specific time frame. Going by this verse, every soul, irrespective of whether it is that of a deva or asura or an ordinary man is immortal. Therefore immortality to devas on drinking amruth must be on some other context. What is this context? Brihadharanyaka upanishad speaks of 3,003 gods, 303 gods, 1 and a half god and 1 god. Except the 1 god which is Brahman, every other god explained in this upansihad is about the different manifestations once after creation has begun. They have varying span of life depending on their role in sustaining creation. They are immotal ones in this time frame of Brahma deva's age of 100 years, in order to carry out their designated functions. In puranas they are celetial ones. The only other entities who have cunningly managed to drink amruth were Rahu and ketu. They too are immortal in this time frame, in their being the nodes, or points of intersection of earth's orbit and moon's orbit. As long as earth and moon continue their journey, the RAhu and Ketu also would be there. This is how we must view the immortality given by amruth. Once their designated journey is over, all those who have drunk amruth would shed their prakruthi connection and attain Liberation or attain Brahman. This it is seen that immortality and Liberation are not the same. Immortality is the reality of the jiva and II chapter of BG says this in many ways. Those doing yogic meditation attain immortal state of release from rebirth. It is not immortality to their body. If it is said that such feat is noticed in siddhi purusha, it is replied thus: It is claerly stated in upanishads like Taittriyam that upon attaining liberation, the jiva is capable of taking any form, be it the form of Vishwam or annam or whatever. This is about the limitlessness that the jiva attains on Liberation.This should not be confused with immortality to the body. The same siddhi purusha who can be seen to have body can also leave the body with ease and be present as air or invisible or even walk on water or fire. Thus immortality is not to physical body. It is the realisation that the jiva undergoes.
  7. 4)This is about imagining our jail at cosmic level. This jail is infinite, no boundaries, no beginning and no end. There are infinite number of others like us peopling this jail. So when you do some action, particularly a yajna type capable of laying a communion between you and God, you have to state who you are and from where you are making this yajna. This is not to 'inform'god that you are there doing something pleasing for Him (yes, all things must be done in Narayana preerthyartham - for the pleasure of Narayana), but to make your effort precise and specific. I think the need to do like this is because of the way we are in this 'jail' Remember the first of your mails in this thread where you wrote about other universes etc..I will take it up here. It is possible to construct a model of the entire universe - the womb of Lord which Geethacharyan speaks about in BG. This model can be constructed by drawing inputs from Purusha suktham, the description of GAyathri as Brahman by barhma sutras and Garuda purana. This is almost spherical in shape (egg shaped as per GAruda purana)and only 1/4 of this is constantly under manifestation and the rest under non-manifestation (Purusha suktam & GAyathri tattwa). To understand this, draw a circle and chip out 90 degree segment of it. This is the manifest universe. Particles keep moving throughout the circle and when they enter this chipped out area, they manifest as born! Once they race to the other end of the segment they enter into non-manifestation. Now visualise this. The particles near the center, soon after entering the segment, lapse into non-maifestation. (scriptures say that some universes die soon after they are born.) Away from centre, the created or manifest universe have brief life before entering pralay. Scriptures say like this too. You can visualise still away, away.. etc. At some point our universe gets born and is now at the 51st year of Brahma deva's life span - that is midway in our journey. We are almnost in the perpendicular bisector of the angle of this segment of manifest creation. Beyond us other univesres are there with much larger life span. The uniqueness of this is that by breadth and width this segment is INFINITE. Every moment, infinite number of universes are born and an infinite number of universes slip into oblivion as per this model, which tallies with what our texts say at various places. Bhagavan is infinitely busy teaching infinite number of Brama devas always. Something He says in BG too. Our life is torn between these worlds depending on the karma we have done. we are all the time busy crisscrossing this maze of universes. It is due to this, i think, we have to identify ourselves as beloning to this Brahma deva's universe, this kalpa, this manvanthra, this yuga, this dEsa, this time of the year, this son of this father etc, as an obligatory authorisation that this karma is being done by so and so. PS: As per this model, big bang and worm-hole theory of birth of universe is nowhere near reality. The 15 billion year of our universe is only a small part of 50 years that brahma deva has completed. What happened 15 billion years ago was only a new alignment or new equilibrium in the progression of our universe. Perhaps string theory best suits this model. But this model is what our scriptures say. By coming out of this womb, one attains God / Liberation
  8. 3)The ritual is in the form of 5-W declaration. By whom, to whom, when, where and why. This is the customary sankalpa done at the beginning of any action (like JAmboo dweepE.. Bharatha kandE....) But when a person does everything in the nature of yajna, it is customary to say, 'idham krishnaarpanam asthu' - everything to krishna. So aying, one doesn't claim anything for oneself - a sure way of distancing oneself from results of the karma so that 'naivam paapam avaapsyasi' A customary way to give is by means of water too. It is said that water transports whatever one gifts or gives. According to Garuda purana, after the jiva gets out of the cosmic egg of rebirths, it enters a river and gets transported to paramapada or Sri VAikunta. It will be interesting to note that in all accounts of after- death or near death experiences where people have come back to life to narrate, have either felt gone along with fast flowing water (river or waterfall) or along with / towards light. Rama too left for His abode by entering Sarayu. Janaka gave Sita in marriage to Rama by pouring water on the hands of the two held together, by saying 'from now on she will be your saha dharma chaariNi.' In temples, the power of Murthys is consecrated in water only. In every type of yajna, a pot of water will be kept into which the power is entered by manthras. You will be in for more surprises if you visit this link http://www.sakthifoundation.org/Water_Healing.htm where you will find some researches showing some unique property of water in taking up crystalline shapes in accordance with what is being thought of. Water does something which science has not yet found out.The customary ritual of any act of giving or yajna is associated with water. Even in pithru tharpaN (the Mahalaya paksha which has just begun), offering of water coupled with deep thoughts about departed forefathers, reach them thereby writing off the debt we owe to them for having gained this body with vital and mental functions (remember the 3 levels we discussed earlier) from them at 3 generations of father, (vasu/physical) grand father (rudra/ vital) and great grand father (adhithya / mental) In customary ritual, water has an inevitable place. But in regular giving of menatl nature, the mental feeling itself will do.
  9. 2) The next one is gyaana yajna done internally. This is what is discussed in chapter 4 of BG after explaining other types of yajnas. This happens within oneself. Here the gyaana is the agni of the homa kund, (pl refer the last few verses in 4th chapter where it is stated that ) samshaya (doubt) is destroyed in this agni. This portion must be read along with chapter 2 -17 to 2-39, whereby it is stated that buddhi or gyaana is knowing the nature of Athman. It is this gyaana which is offered in the homa kund of gyaana (this is similar to another BG verse which we laready discussed whereby it is stated that the one who offers is Brahman, what is offered is Brahma, the agni is Brahman etc) so that what one gets back is destroyal of sins, which means Liberation from the cycle of births. This is how the 4 th chapter concludes. The details are as per Brahadharanyaka upanishad which I quoted in the last mail in the series. The culmination of human endeavour to get Release is this gyaana yajna done within oneself.
  10. Dear Subham ji, I find scope for talking about 4 different issues from your mail. I have this weakness of not being able to talk crisply:-) and hence request you to bear with me. 1) Knolwledge as sacrifice externally - This is what you have said in your mail. Elsewhere in MB (Mahabharatha)it has been said that of all the created ones, those that breath are superior. Of those that breath, those that think are superior.Of these, those who think about Brahman are superior. Of these, those who speak about Brahman are superior. Of these, those who also teach about Brahman to otehrs are superior. The hierarchy ends with this kind of people. The Vidya dhaanam is the most superior of all dhaanam and the one who does it as yajna, expecting no returns for him is the best. However the results do reach him as attainment of Brahman itself. One such person is sage Vasishta, who has been granted the status of Saptha rishi. He along with Athri are the only two sages who continue as saptha rishis throughout the age of 100 years of Brahma deva. Other saptha rishis change during every manvanthra. (Cosmically, these two rishis seen as stars continue to be seen from the earth, at the same place through all ages) The uniqueness about them is that though they have attained eligibility to attain Liberation, they have been retained in order to continue to live till the entire span of Brahma deva is over, by doing their karma yoga which is in the nature of Gyaana yoga, which they do as yajna. This inormation is contained in Brahma sutras.The world lives on the strength of such sages. Theirs is the yajna of knowledge - done externally, for the benefit of others.
  11. Dear Subham ji, As far as I know, I can give the following justification for the two parts of your query. The first is about how Sanjaya was able to see the viraat rupa. As per BG verse 11-47, bhagavan says that none before him (Arjuna) had seen like that. Note the word purvam in the verse. This is an open-ended statement which openly states that non one had seen Him like this in the past, yet some one in future might get to see. But since the Lord says ‘thwat anyEna’ (except you), there is room to interpret that none other than Arjuna had seen It since ancient times. But this gift to see this rupa was given to Arjuna by the Lord, by ‘dadaami divyam chakshu:” He gave the divine eye to Arjuna because without the divine eye, no one can see this rupam. The same divine eye has been given to Sanjaya too by Vyasa, just before the start of the war. Vyasa initially offered to give this eye to Dhritharashtraa. But he declined and instead preferred to hear the happenings in the battle field. Vyasa, who was capable of granting any type of boon (note this narration by me is as per MG by Veda vyasa) then looked at Sanjaya and granted him this divine eye saying that he would be able see everything, both hidden and open, that which happens in the dark and in the light, that which runs as thoughts in people’s interior and so on. The description is same as what the Lord gave Arjuna as Divyam chakshu: Vyasa further qualifies this boon by telling that Sanjaya alone would emerge out of this war unhurt, meaning that he would be there at every place in the Battle field, would follow every asthra shot, listen to every word spoken, but yet remain unaffected by it – or come out of all it unscathed. As a result we find Sanjaya giving a commentary just before the viraat rupa was to be shown and also just before His Divine form was shown, thereby indicating that he indeed had seen the two depictions of the Lord. The Lord’s utterance does not negate this another person seeing His rupa, as His comment is that no one has seen it before Arjuna. And by telling that scores of others (like those who have done yajna, daana etc) can not see Him like this, He indicates that unless one is blessed with the divine eye granted by Him, nobody can see Him. Elsewhere He says ‘athma-yOgaath’ – by My Yoga only you are able to see this form. This gift, already been given to Sanjaya had made him see Him in Vishwarupa. The second part of your query is about what made sanjaya special to receive this gift. Subham ji this is the most intriguing part which every saadhaka wishes to know. But to my present level of understanding it seems, that a person need not do great sacrifices, penance or meditation to become the recipient of this gift. As Upanishad says, “HE is seen by him whom He chooses.” The choice is His and as per BG it is about how you conduct yourself, as a doer or an instrument. Like the butcher from whom a sage learnt Athma gyaana (MB), Sanjaya too was a selfless karmayogi, with equanimity. There are two terms expressed in MB at different places. They are puppets and instruments. Elsewhere in MB it is said that the jivas are the puppets, controlled by Him. But in BG. Bahgavan gives another choice, ‘nimiththam’ or instrument. When one is a puppet, there is absolutely no control over one’s own actions by oneself. But when one allows oneself to be used as an instrument by the Lord, He takes charge and the jiva merely enjoys Lord’s actions as His Leela. There is a qualitative difference in status between these two conditions. Less awareness perpetuates one into being a puppet. But awareness makes one to be used by Him, instead of being controlled by Him. The latter one is what a karma yogi does. The Lord prescribes this state only as way to liberation. And it is in this way, Sanjaya qualifies for the divyam chakshu:
  12. Thank you. I have not written any books. I must say that I gain a lot when searching for answers to different questions. It was a rewarding experience to look for answers to your queries. Thank you once again. Please feel free to ask any question. If it is possible for me to find answers, I will certainly do.
  13. >>>>3) Also in chapter 4 He says, Pranayamam and different types of breath control are also a type of sacrifice i can't understand how they can<<<<<<<<<<<<<<, ---------------------------- Let me quote from Brihadharanyaka to say what this is about. "The organ of speech (vak) (of the sacrificer) is looked upon as Agni (‘fire’)" (Br.,III.1.3), "the eye (cakshus) of the sacrificer is Aditya (‘sun’)" (Br.,III.1.4) , "the vital force (prana) (of the sacrificer) is looked upon as Vayu (‘air’)" (Br.,III.1.5), "the mind (manas) of the sacrificer is Chandra (‘moon’)" (Br.,III.1.6). The Self which was seen as of nature of Hiranyagarbha (‘the golden egg’) is identified in Br.,II.1.17 as being in the heart. The four Vedic priests were also internalized as Br.,III.1.3-6 points out: “speech is the hotri”, “the eye is the adhvaryu”, “the breath is the udgatri”, “mind is the brahman”. Now, the new kind of sacrificer is none other than the spiritual aspirant himself who strives towards the knowledge (gyana) of Brahman as the highest reality. Not only the external world finds correspondence within the aspirant’s internal world, but also his internal world is reflected in the external world of magnifying proportions thus: "the organ of speech (vak) itself is the earth, the mind (manas) is the sky and the vital force (prana) is heaven" (Br.,I.5.4). Yet, the entire interconnectivity of macro and micro universes as seen in the Upanishads does persistently address the issue of spiritual liberation by the means of knowledge. To quote another source, Garbha Upanishad says: “All who are living (in this world) are the sacrificers. There is none living who does not perform yajna. This body is (created) for yajna, and arises out of yajna and changes according to yajna.” And finally as a conclusion, yajna is seen at the basis of the creation itself because “Brahma, the Creator, in the beginning of the world created human beings together with yajna and said: "By yajna you shall prosper and yajna shall fulfill all your desires.” (BG, 3-10). She is the Kaama dhenu, capable of giving this worldly, other worldly and above all a permanent Release from this world. That it is there right from creation and at all levels is what BG has made out. The spirit behind is what I attempted to do thes mails at my present level of understanding. Dear Subham ji, hope this helps..
  14. >>>>2) Also i am not exactly clear what is meant by "service to the Lord" suppose if i wish to do service to the Lord then what should i do<<<< ----------------------------- It might be perplexing to note that sanatana dharma which speaks so much about sacrifices, speaks less about service, which is the corner stone of other religions of the world. The fact is that our dharma does not recognize service, it recognizes only DUTIES. Duty is a far superior word than service. When you serve someone, your hand goes up and the receiver has to extend his hand below in humility. But when the same is done as a duty, the pride of the receiver is never put to stress. The doer gives because it does him good and the receiver takes because by so-doing he is enabling the doer (giver) receive some benefits (the rationale behind charity or dhaana in sanatana dharma is this). The self-respect of the receiver is not hurt in this scenario. So giving is done as a duty and Taittriyam lays rules for how to give. All karmas or actions are sacrifices and all sacrifices include the component of giving and taking. But the giver has to give with complete detachment to the thing given and without motives. (Though yajnas are done with motives, the spirit of na mama is maintained, the motiveless yajna is the supreme of all which gives Moksham while all the others give finite results). That manu smrithi says, “Service is a dog’s life” which is deciphered as service to one who is unworthy. Service to any one is service by finite to the finite. But service to the infinite alone is the best as the results of such service will be infinite, say, Bliss. That is why sanatana dharma recognizes service only in the context of the Almighty. Such service is done by extolling Him, talking about Him, giving to others knowledge about Him (note 4-34 wherein the Lord says about serving the gyanis, in order to know this knowledge – you serve him and the gyani in turn serves the Lord by giving you the knowledge about him and the yajna mode of worship)and by upholding this Dharma. Apart from this every act is to be done as duty in the spirit of yajna. In Brahma yajna, by your thought force, you attain Brahman (4-24) In pithru yajna, by the offer of shraddha and a spoonful of water, you make them more robust that they rise to higher realms from where they are able to bless your progeny to be free of diseases, particularly the genetic ones which ypu might have passed on to the next generation. In Deva yajna, the devas supporting this world, say, Vaayu in agni hotra, are nourished who in turn make this world better and livable. In Bhootha yajna, even the offer a mug-ful of water to the plant in your balcony and a handful of grass to a cow or food to a dog results in them giving something to the nature’s cycle which helps in sustaining that cycle. In manushya yajna (Let me not go in to the details of how Athiti is deva as per the vachan ‘athithi devO bhava’ as it is once again an exhaustive topic, but will sure write on that at an appropriate context), the sacrifice done is in the nature of not eating anything until a stranger (atithi is a traveler from an unknown place) is fed. Without feeding a fellow human being, one is not supposed to take his food. Thus we find that the concept of yajna in every action takes one to excellence besides maintaining the balance of nature. In contrast to this, the yajna in dharma or the sacrifice of the phala (fruits) of action leads one to Liberation. This is the gyana which bhagavan mentions in verses 4-33,& 34. When you understand that the things offered by you are not yours, you reach a state that you are not even the ‘doer’ or the one who offers. It is Him, by Him, in to Him and to attain Him (4-24). This is the process of gyana yajna.
  15. The ultimate yajna The clue for this is given in verse 3-13. Here there is a talk about offering something in yajna and consuming the remnant of it. When done like this, the doer is released of all sins. This is about the pancha yajnas to be conducted by every person irrespective of varna, desha and kaala differences. This has been happening right from the vedic times. They are known as 5 Great sacrifices (pancha maha yagya). They are Brahma yajna (sacrifice to Brahman), Pitru yajna (sacrifice to the departed ancestors), deva yajna (sacrifice to devas), bhootha yajna (sacrifice to plants and animals) and manushya yajna (sacrifice to man, popularly known as atithi bhojana). Every day a person is supposed to make some offerings , material or of mind to the Brahma, the almighty who is responsible for all this creation, to the pithrus or forefathers who have made possible our existence here, to the devas who help us sustain, as energies or natural forces around us, to plants and animals who do invisible service for our sustenance and to a fellow human being just for no motive at all. In other words, worshiping of Brahman, pithrus, devas and the world around us by offering something in the spirit of ‘na mama’ and offering with the same spirit food to a fellow human being who is in need of food constitute the five yajnas to be done every day. In the first four cases we do as thanks-giving and we receive something back. In the fifth yajna we go a step further where we don’t get anything tangible from the atithi (though he offers us his good will) and this makes it the best of the five. Puranas and epics have stories about how the offering done to the atithi under dire circumstances with the spirit of na mama has been considered as the greatest. The comparison, done by a porcupine with its back in golden hues, of Yudhishtra’s ashwamedha with the atithi bhojana done by a poor family which died with no food for itself by offering whatever little it had to the atithi is one of the finest examples of sacrifice of the best kind. By this sacrifice the family attained swarga. It is also said in the scriptures that these five sacrifices removes the sins incurred unknowingly and inevitably by a person when he (1) burns the firewood for cooking, (2) grinds flour in the grinding stone, (3) sweeps the floor, (4) breaks the grains and (5) boils water. In all these acts which are regularly done, many micro organisms and living things such as insects are killed. The 5 great sacrifices relieves one of these sins in addition to enabling him do the thanks giving by which the receivers help him in return. The one who does not offer like this is known as a sinner or a thief according to BG because you cannot take without giving back something. This is the idea behind any sacrifice.
  16. What happens in a yajna (again) The clue for this is available in verse 3-14 which explains the cyclical connection between bhoothani(life) , yajna , rain, food and ending in bhoothani itself. I take up this verse as the core verse to explain what happens in a sacrifice. When actions are done for the sake of sustaining life, that is, not for one’s own selfish benefits, the natural happenings such as evaporation forming into cloud go on in an orderly way. Perhaps this might include not polluting the atmosphere by man-made things for gratification of self interest or not doing any act that goes against sustenance of other life forms. When this happens cloud formation and rain formation are also orderly, not heavy, nor deficient. In those days there used to be 3 spells in a month which will continue month after month. (Sangam literature in Tamil speaks extensively of this nature). There were no excess or dry spells. It was because the actions by mankind were of un selfish goals and what was done was to sustain nature. So the result of doing anything as ‘na mama’ leads to the proper functioning of the natural forces around us. This is the paraspara or the mutual benefit between man and nature. Needless to say every aspect of nature is an ati devata or the deva or the lord that Aitareya speaks about. On receiving moisture, the rain gives back to the earth what it has received. This offering to the earth is again offered to the plant life, which in turn offers it as food. This comes back to the life forms as their nourishment. Keeping in mind the different aspects discussed so far, we find hat when man does karma in the spirit of yajna or sacrifice, the deva such as rain deva is benefited, who in turn becomes potent enough to give back more to man kind. Now read the verses 3-11 and 12 and relate the above. Similarly the agnihotra I mentioned in another thread in this forum. Ghee and rice are offered in agni which is taken to vaayu deva because scientifically more than hundred types of oxides are released due to this act. These oxides nourish the vaayu deva who then becomes highly potent when you inhale him or even otherwise by himself (vaayu) keeping the surrounding layer of air potent enough to withstand poisonous and radio active substances. This is the idea behind ‘ you nourish the devas and they in turn nourish you’ . Taking this to the foremost verse 3-10 in this series, we find that right from the beginning of creation something is offered into something which results into something else which in turn becomes the basis of some other good. The collision of sub atomic particles in the Homa kunda of hydrogen gas mass might perhaps be the first yajna initiated by Brahma deva. From then onwards at every step, we find yajna or sacrifice continuing, there by sustaining creation. Even in the very heart of supernova from which our solar system was born, it received offerings by hydrogen onwards to many other elements ( one giving rise to the other) till the iron core was born. This iron core given back as a result of the homa in the supernova is what stands as earth as a bar magnet, giving it a shield, capable of withstanding many a hazardous radiation from outer space. From this external world to the internal world of man , our scriptures teach us how to do the sacrifice at every level. While it is about doing every karma with na mama spirit there is a particular type of sacrifice prescribed to man as per BG which we will see in the next post.
  17. What happens in yajna All along we have been talking this or that being done as yajna. What is it that happens in a yagna? There are essentially four components in a yagna. This is spelt by Lord Himself in verse 4-24. There is something called arpanam, which is an instrument to offer with. Then there is oblation, which is the havis offered into the yagna. Then there is the very important fire which takes up the offerings . And finally there is a fruit or the result of yagna. In this verse, Bhagavaan says, the act of doing arpanam is Brahman, the one who is in the process of offering is Brahman. The havis or rice offered is Brahman. The agni is Brahman. The result attained also is Brahman. Outwardly this would look very simple to read but complex to understand. To elaborate this, let me arrange the inputs that lord Himself has given in some order to get the import better. Idea / input 1: As per 3-10 ‘pra-savishyatvam’ happens the people who do yajna, they grow and prosper. Input 2: How it happens is explained in 3-11 – by mutual support – ‘parasparam bhaavayanta:’ ie the one who receives the offering and the one who gives, benefit mutually. Input 3: Not only that , the receiver of offerings will satisfy the wishes of the giver as per 3-12 Input 4: This is how yajna becomes Kaamadhenu 3-10 Input 5: The one who eats the remnants of this yajna prospers as he is released from sins whereas the one who does not offer at all will be a thief. From all these, the following clues emerge. 1.Every act involves ‘giving’ be it to the gods or anything as we narrated in Chandokhya 2.This giving is exclusively to the agni or to the one to whom agni transfers it. This is denoted by the basic word 'na mama’ this means ‘not mine’. When something is offered with na mama clause, that means that definitely belongs to the other. Such an offering will definitely go to the other provided the giver ‘understands’ that he is giving. You may know the Buddha story in which he kept cool when some one abused him. When he was asked how he was able to be so cool, he replied that he did not accept it. So it belongs to the one who has sent it, not to him. Similarly if the giver is stead-fast on giving it with an intention that it is not his, then it comes to belong to the receiver. Thus the second aspect of yajna is complete renunciation of that which is offered, which in other words mean sacrifice, which in otherwise means worshipping the receiver by giving something. When the offering is done exclusively for the sake of the receiver, sins cease. When Arjuna offered his services in Kurukshetra in the spirit of yajna or sacrifice for the sake of receiver, dharma, he did not incur sin. The same act done by Dhuryodhana in kurukshetra was for ‘aham’, for him self and so it could not absolve him of any sin. It is on this basis sacrifice of animals was justified by the Chandokya Upanishad. In the concluding passage where ahimsa or non violence is extolled we also find these words, "Anyatra tirthebhyah". It means ahimsa must be practised except with regard to Vedic rites. It is because the offering has been made not for one self but for the receiver of the offering of the yajna which is none other than the Brahman though by devas entrusted with finite responsibilities.
  18. A peep into Yajnas in Upanishads There are components in yajna. One is the external, and the other internal. Most yajnas mentioned in Yajur Veda ( the yaj in yajur is derived from yajna since this veda deals with performance of yajnas) are for getting some gratification, the highest of which is attaining swarga or heaven. But all these are not permanent. Once the results are over, the sacrificer will be born again. This is confirmed by bhagavaan Himself in BG. That means these are all finite. But still we do for the sake of good life in this and in next birth. There are Yajnas that are not only about getting some tangible results but also for sustaining the nature around us. They are referred to as nithya karma and the pancha maha yajna (which we will see later). Yajnas are done at every level. For instance Chandokya Upanishad talks about how the yajna is being done in the universe as Homa kunda ( sec 4 ) , in the earth (sec 6), with reference to rain (sec 5) and man and woman as the Homa kundas (sec 7 & 8) Brihadaaranyaka Upanishad also details from the external level to the internal level on how every act including intercourse has to be done as sacrifice. But all these are about things external to the self which are done for the sake of doing as there is no escape from Karma. The culmination of all these is internalization of yajna in the mind. Such internalization leads to moksha , the third definition as mentioned in the first post. When the Karma is done as yajna it is for release from karmic bondage. When that karma is done with gyana - that this release from karmic bondage also is not there as a motive, then that is gyana yagna – sarva dharmaan parithayagjya - the slogan of the lord.
  19. Types of yajna. From verses 3-10 to 4-32 in BG we find a number of types of Yagnas done from Brahmadeva onwards to the individual soul seeking liberation. After this only, Bhagavan speaks about gyana yagna (sacrifice through knowledge) which He qualifies as the best of all. But if we look into the verses in this group we will find that He has conveyed this in verse 3-20 itself, as a concealed message. Bhagavan says that it is by doing yajna by karma, great souls like Janaka attained liberation. Superficially we take this to mean that Janaka was one who did things like ‘do your duty’, as karma yogi. But in the same verse Bhagavan makes a qualifying remark when He says ‘Loka sangraham yEva api’. That is, by knowing how life goes on, how life must be sustained and how the world must be taken along, persons like Janaka did their Karma and attained liberation! This knowledge about ‘how’ of the three mentioned here is crucial for doing karma. Bhagavan also says that He does karma (3-22) with the temperament of the three mentioned above . Thus knowledge about how to do Karma is one thing. That is, one understands and knows what he has to do, how he has to do and thus does Karma. There is another category, where one does the karma in the way it has to be done but the knowledge (about it) is ingrained in him like how it was with Janaka. You may be wondering why we are talking about Karma while the topic we have started is about Yajna. It is because as per BG 3-9 yagnaarthaath karmanaha does not lead to bondage. That is, the karma which is done as yajna releases one from bondage. Whereas the karma done not as Yajna binds one to the cycle of rebirth. Thus the first requirement is knowledge about karma or action we do and the knowledge that it must be done as yajna. It is while explaining like this, the lord talks about yajna by dhravya(materials), tapo yajna, yoga yajna etc. Even swaadhyaaya (learning Vedas) is yajna. But all these yajnas fructify because of the gyaana yajna. Without knowing the results do not come (in any yajna this is done as sankalpa or stating the motive or wish for which the yajna is done), and once knowing the doer will not be doing for any motive (this is a delicate part of knowing fruit but renouncing the fruit) . He will do it as a duty without attachment or expectation. That is the basic idea behind doing sacrifice and the first level of explanation for what is meant here by sacrifice through knowledge.
  20. >>>>>>>>1) In chapter 4 Bhagvan says scarifice through Knowledge is superior to Scarifice through material things. Now i can easily understand what is sacrifice through material things but not so clear what is meant by "sacrifice through knowledge" 2) Also i am not exactly clear what is meant by "service to the Lord" suppose if i wish to do service to the Lord then what should i do 3) Also in chapter 4 He says, Pranayamam and different types of breath control are also a type of sacrifice i can't understand how they can<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ------------------------ What is Yajna? Yajna is commonly understood as sacrifice in English. But as per BG we get three definitions of Yajna. All these three can be found in chapters 3 & 4 , starting from 3-10 to 4-32 Definition 1: Yajna is worshiping the divine, for, the root word ‘yaj’ in Sanskrit means worship. Definition 2: Yajna is something which arises from Karma ( Karma samudbhavaha – 3-14) and it is karma-jaan vidhi (4-32) Definition 3: Yajna is that by doing which, the doer attains liberation ( vimokshayasE – 4-32) The basic idea from these three definitions which we can derive from BG is that Yajna is a divine act which arises as a result of an action of the doer and it ultimately leads one to liberation. Further elaboration of this in the forth coming posts is an attempt to explain how this happens and how this is the essence of what Bhagavan says from 3rd to 18th chapters.
  21. - You are saying that when we are closer to god's abode, .. --------- Read your question again and what is conveyed in my post again. Another reason is ... your question can not be answered outright, as it involves what you think is God and His creation as per Hindu texts and whether you have understood the answers for these two crucial questions in the way they have been delivered by out texts. That is why I expect you search for the answer, which will inevitably take you to the 2 questions I mentioned. Once you know the answers for them, the question you have raised will become irrelevant.
  22. So a contradiction seems to exist in this context, right? How can that be? There must be some rationale behind this, OK? Search for it.
  23. ------------------------ anyhow thank you for the informative reply, there is another point which may be of interest, which appeared in space.com recently, that there is a bright green thin ray of light emitted from the Sun's north and south pole exactly at the twilight of earth timing, scientist are still not clear of the reasons. ------------- exactly, this is the first qestion in yaksha prashna. Why does the sun rise everyday? Its because, people offer arghya. Why does the sun set, its again the same answer. Its like what happens in agni hotra I explained before. In addition to the pollution free atm it gives, we found that within 20 days after we started doing it in our house, the cockroaches were spotted upside down , dead and no cockroahes were there afterwards. This is one visible change we witnessed. About the colours, I am still in the process of compiling the info from scriptures in the light of green and blue colour associated with bhagavan.You can find an article on blue colour in the archives of this site itself. Once I come to some understanding, I will share it with all. Also since I am currently working for another group on a loaded topic on vedic texts with reference to woman's staus as daughter-in-law, it will take a day or two to respond to your queries on BG. Please bear with me for the delay.
  24. Why Bhoomi seeks help? And how does she bear the weight? Kshama (patience) is what bhudevi is identified with. In the Yaksha prashna between Yudhishtra and Yaksha, we get the meaning of what Kshama is. Yudhishtra replies that kshama is to bear sukha and dukha , profit and loss, success and defeat and honour and shame. The earth bears all this – all the abuse to her and care to her too. But she cannot bear the imbalance between Dharma and adharma. When that happens, she has to immediately bring it to the notice of the lord. Or rather the God Himself swings into action by knowing (?) the imbalance through bhudevi who is nevertheless His manifestation. In all the places wherever Bhudevi is referred to have gone to the lord, requesting Him to reduce her burden, it is invariably to do with Adharma rising or Adharmic people dominating the scene. As we know from BG, God manifests Himself whenever Adharma takes lead over dharma. By bringing out the balance or by reducing the Adharma, Bhu- bhaara is reduced. This can be viewed from another perspective also as described in one of the Puranas. This is an episode involving sages Vasishta and Vishwamithra. They once had an argument regarding which is superior, sat-sangam or years of tapas. Vasishta said it was sat-sangam while Vishwamithra said it was years of tapas or meditation. They went to meet Adhisesha who was carrying the World on his shoulder, to settle this issue. He said how can he solve this issue when he is carrying a heavy burden. For this, Vishwamithra said that he would give 16,000 years of his tapas to support the weight of the world and did give. But the world could not be held aloft. Vasishta gave a second of satsangam and Adhisesha was relieved of the weight. But since Adhisesah continued to remain quiet, Vishwamithra asked impatiently why he was not giving his solution, for which Adhisesha said that the reply was already given. While a second of sat-sangam was able to hold the world, 16,000 years of tapas could not! This is all about what keeps the world going – lightly on the shoulders of Sesha (once again an allegory for the created Universe on which the Lord is resting). The growth of satsanga makes this world light. The pre-dominance of dharma is what makes this world light. This is what the Lord wants to establish. When this is done, the vital force of His Creation, the NILA will be balanced protecting the bhoomi from harmful solar winds and giving the world the hitherto unknown / unexplored benefits. (Who knows this may be some nodal point expressed as northern sojourn, for the north pole, for the light of day, for the 6 months of Uththrayana, for the sun’s path, going through which the jiva never returns to earth or samsara….) And the mental force Sri helps the jiva in attaining what is to be attained, for the very meaning of Lakshmi (Sri) is one who shows what must be your lakshaya / goal. This is perhaps why our sages of yore have allotted 3/5 place to the three consorts while giving only 2 places to Purusha, Narayana and Vishnu in the body of Pancha suktam.
  25. Bhoo and others too.. Another dimension involved in this discussion is 3+1 which we have discussed in another thread, that is Bhu + Bhuva + Sva = Maha Here Bhu: = Bhudevi , the earth or prithvi Bhuva: = NILA devi Sva: = Sri devi Maha: = Narayana or Vishnu The Vedas speak of three consorts to Vishnu, Sri, Bhu and NiLa. There are three suktams as part of Pancha Suktam and the three suktams are Sri suktam, Bhu suktam and NiLa suktam. While the first is part of Rig veda, the other two are found in Yajur veda. The Bhu devi described in Bhu suktam is “Hiranya garbhini”, the one who is capable of fulfilling all our wishes ( sarva siddhyai). She is described as not just the land form but also as one who has the waters and the air (jalasayani, vaayumati). That is why we say that Bhudevi contains all that is within or on her. This includes the chetana and the achetana also as per Narayana suktam. For our understanding we consider her as a physical manifestation. The NiLa is not much known or discussed one by our elders and our Aacharyas. She is supposed to have been born as Nappinna in Krishna avatara to win whose hand, Krishna fought and subdued 7 bulls. The description in the very small NiLa suktam gives some idea of what this NiLa is with our little knowledge of science. Here I bring in the aurora lights seen in the north and south poles. The NiLa is described in the suktam as belonging to prithvi. She has permanent directions. She creates fear by authority of the sun. And she is the wife of Vishnu. Having these information, we find that this is similar to how and why the corona appears. To read the details please go to the following link. http://www-spof.gsfc.nasa.gov/Education/aurora.htm Assuming that you have just finished reading the details in that link, let me continue like this. The corona is very much of prithvi, in being the magnetic forces of this big bar magnet , the Earth. She creates fear on a midight like NiLa. She has definite directions , the north and the south. She is looking fearful due to the solar winds- powered by the solar winds ( Savita aadi pathyai: bhayasvathee) And connecting this with the Nappinnai description which is found in Tamil composition ‘Thiruppavai’ by Aandal (Godha), we find that Krishna is with Nappinna when Godha goes to wake Him up. It is past midnight on the morning side as how the corona makes a long sweep into the sky, going out on the night side of midnight and coming in on the morning side of midnight. (please read the link for further understanding) It seems humanity is completely in the dark about this corona and all that it can do to us. But as per NiLa suktam, she is a powerful Devi of Vishnu similar to Bhu. This NiLa devi is perhaps the manifestation of the vital force (Bhuva:) Coming to Sri, no need to say about her power. She is “ishwarIm sarva Bhootaanaam” (Sri suktam). She fulfills all desires of the beings of the prithvi. She is the manas, she is the mental force. So she is Sva: depicting the mental level. The lord of all the three, Bhudevi, NiLadevi and Sridevi (in the order of physical, vital and mental) is lord Narayana. With all these three consorts, through them, by them and in them, the lord carries out His act of protection Thus it is very much justifiable that Bhudevi brings to His notice the problems she has. With the other two devis such exploitation of them by human kind does not take place, because man has not yet understood how to exploit them!! But with Bhu the exploitation goes on very well. But dear Subhamji, I don’t think the Bhudevi is so much disturbed with the exploitation we do. She has a remarkable prowess to restore her balance. When there is an upset to the environmental conditions of any two related points on the earth, different natural processes start acting upon them to maintain stability or equilibrium between the points. Similarly when minerals are extracted causing instability in the region, natural processes such as erosion and transportation of overlying debris by rain water by rain water and land slides etc take place to maintain stability. Similarly with the extraction of oil and natural gas. It can also be noticed that the shifting of land mass to the north in general, perhaps triggered by the tilt of the axis is getting compensated by underground movements or quakes in other regions. The bhoomi always finds her equilibrium. So it is for something else the Bhudevi seeks Bhagavan’s help.
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