raga

I'll drop in a few comments here and there. 1. To the best of my knowledge, Tinkudi Baba was not staying at Radha Kund, nor was Nitai Das. 2. Can you present any written attack against Bhaktisiddhanta and the rest by a recognized resident of Radha Kund? 3. On what basis do you say that Tinkudi Baba was very antagonistic towards Bhaktisiddhanta? This does not correspond to what I've read of him from the writings of Nitai Das. Now you are quoting from a book of Haridas Dasji. Do you trust his works or not?

Xna Xmastami

>> The biggest vamsa (family lineage) was started by Krishna Mishra Gosvami. << This means among the Advaita Vamsa. In general, Nityananda Vamsa is more prominent.

Mukunda Dattaji, it appears that your study of the broader Gaudiya tradition never went much beyond the walls of what you read in ISKCON. This is very apparent from what you write. Now, allow me to shed some light on some bits of history you need to reconsider. >>> This is the Nityananda-vamsa, one of the caste gosvami families whose dubious ideas are criticized in the books and instructions of Srila Prabhupada. <<< To begin with, Nityananda Parivara and Nityananda Vamsa are very different. The word parivara is used for a particular disciplic lineage, while the word vamsa is used for a family lineage. Thus someone belonging to Nityananda Parivara belongs to a disciplic succession descending from Nityananda, and someone belonging to Nityananda Vamsa belongs to a family lineage descending from the sons of Nityananda. While the descendants of Nityananda generally are also initiated in a disciplic succession started by Nityananda, this is not a rule in itself. >>> In fact, none of the caste gosvami factions that later claimed Gaudiya affiliation actually have any intact seminal succession, either from the Lord, or needless to say from the six gosvamis. The Advaita and Nityananda lines are the two chief caste gosvami lines. They originated in Bengal; in fact, the latter consists of the descendants of Advaitacarya's sons who gave up Krsna consciousness. <<< The biggest vamsa (family lineage) was started by Krishna Mishra Gosvami. What makes you propose that there is no intact seminal succession there? Have you ever examined any geneological line of Advaita Vamsa? I believe you haven't. Nevertheless you speak as if you had seen the farther shore of the Gaudiya history. I do know people initiated in the Gosvami Vamsas coming from Nitai and Advaita. >>> Suffice it say here that theologically, the caste/babaji alliance and the Gaudiya Sarasvata paramparas are roughly comparable to the Catholic and Protestant traditions of Christianity. <<< If such a rough comparison was to be made, I would more likely see the Gosvami traditions akin to the Catholic tradition and the Babaji traditions akin to the Orthodox tradition. Among the Protestant traditions, I am best familiar with the Lutherian tradition, and among the newcomers, I am acquainted with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Perhaps a blend of the three come close to an adequate equivalent for the Sarasvata lineage. >>> However, it is a false substantiation to cite percentages here, as if vox populi had any relevence. If it is a numbers game, though, I would agree with Bhaktivinoda Thakura himself, who said that Vaisnavas could be assessed by how many other Vaisnavas they create. <<< Now, you are proposing that numbers are irrelevant, and at the same time are the best criterion for assessing Vaishnavas. That is somewhat of an oxymoron I think. You should first make up your mind and then make your point. Regards, Madhava

Each post in the Achintya-list comes along with a disclaimer: <hr> "DISCLAIMER: All postings appearing on Achintya are the property of their authors, and they may not be cross-posted to other forums without prior approval by said authors. Views expressed in Achintya postings are those of their authors only, and are not necessarily endorsed by the moderator or spiritual leaders of the Gaudiiya school. " <hr> I did not give my approval to Mukunda Datta for posting excerpts from my writings here. However, since he did it, let me post my response along with excerpts from what he wrote. I trust he has no objection to that, since he decided to duplicate our dialogue here to begin with.

I believe we are speaking of two different Pisima devotees here. The story Ram related of Pisima Gosvamini and her service to Gaura Nitai is related in OBL Kapoor's Saints of Bengal and Haridas Dasji's Gaudiya Vaishnava Abhidhana. She is very different from Bhaktivedanta's sister. Pisima Gosvamini lived in the 1800's. There are many astonishing pastimes involving her Gaura-Nitai.

I believe Srimad Bhagavatam is made of VERSES. To be precise, it is a mixture of verses and prose. I have compiled all references that I know of on the maha-mantra into one document, available below. If I missed out something, please let me know. http://www.raganuga.com/literature/authors/madhava/maha-mantra-references.doc http://www.raganuga.com/literature/authors/madhava/maha-mantra-references.pdf

Beginning = the time when an effect manifests due to the cause. Beginningless = that which has never been manifest by a cause. To ask for the cause of beginningless bondage under the influence of illusion, to ask for the cause of illusion, to ask for the cause of the living entities, to ask for the cause of Hari who manifests illusion and the living entities...

I have often heard the legend that Bhaktivedanta Swami gave a Nrisimha-mantra to his sannyasa-disciples until they came in touch with Gaudiya Math sannyasis and learned that the gopi-bhava mantra is given for a sannyasi. Then he changed the practice and began to give the gopi-bhava mantra as well.

While I don't personally agree with the idea of sakhi-bhekhi as a part of sadhana, I must nevertheless recognize the tremendous sacrifice those people adopting the bhekh of a sakhi are making in forsaking their past identity altogether, dressing in the garments of a gopi. In the matha of Charan Das Baba in Puri, his sakhi-bhekhi disciples used to be the ones who were engaged in the seva of Sri Radha Krishna. I do not recall reading them ever participate in nagar sankirtan and so. Also, in this case I did not read of an external imitation of emotional feelings, which you suggested in your text. I am certain there are many brands of sakhi-bhekhi. I recall reading some Radha-Vallabhis are also sakhi-bhekhis. Many Nimbarkis, though I don't think in their line anyone adopts sakhi-bhekh, have great respect for sincere sakhi-bhekhi sadhakas. They call them "Sakhi Maharaj". I would be interested to know the exact thesis of Rupa Kaviraja which was refuted, as well as the exact refutation. It is Rupa Kaviraja, for the record, not Rupa Vilasa.

While I don't personally agree with the idea of sakhi-bhekhi as a part of sadhana, I must nevertheless recognize the tremendous sacrifice those people adopting the bhekh of a sakhi are making in forsaking their past identity altogether, dressing in the garments of a gopi. In the matha of Charan Das Baba in Puri, his sakhi-bhekhi disciples used to be the ones who were engaged in the seva of Sri Radha Krishna. I do not recall reading them ever participate in nagar sankirtan and so. Also, in this case I did not read of an external imitation of emotional feelings, which you suggested in your text. I am certain there are many brands of sakhi-bhekhi. I recall reading some Radha-Vallabhis are also sakhi-bhekhis. Many Nimbarkis, though I don't think in their line anyone adopts sakhi-bhekh, have great respect for sincere sakhi-bhekhi sadhakas. They call them "Sakhi Maharaj". I would be interested to know the exact thesis of Rupa Kaviraja which was refuted, as well as the exact refutation. It is Rupa Kaviraja, for the record, not Rupa Vilasa.

Some of those babajis will become the monkeys and some of them the pigs of Vraja, depending on their inclination. They can then conveniently continue their quarrel with those sannyasis who have incarnated as the dogs of Vraja, who cannot abstain from biting and barking at people even in the holy dham.

Some of those babajis will become the monkeys and some of them the pigs of Vraja, depending on their inclination. They can then conveniently continue their quarrel with those sannyasis who have incarnated as the dogs of Vraja, who cannot abstain from biting and barking at people even in the holy dham.

Bondage is beginningless. <hr> Mandukyopanisad 1.16 states: anAdi mAyayA supto yadA jIva prabudhyate ajam anidram asvapnam advaitaM budhyate tadA “When the jIva wakes from sleep which is caused by the beginningless illusion or ignorance, then he realizes that he is unborn, and free of sleep, dreams, and dualism.” <hr> Bhagavad-gita 13.20 states: prakRtiM puruSaM caiva viddhy anAdI ubhAv api vikArAMz ca guNAMz caiva viddhi prakRti-sambhavAn “You should know that both the material nature and the living entities are beginningless, and the consequent transformations of the three modes of nature are born of material nature too.” Visvanatha comments on this verse: mAya-jIvayor-api mac-chaktitvena anAditvAt tayoH saMzleSo’py anAdir iti bhAvaH “The material energy and the living entities, being My energies, both are beginningless, and their mutual embrace is also beginningless.” <hr> VedAnta SUtra 2.1.35 states: na karmAvibhAgAd iti cen nAnAditvAt “If someone says that the theory of karma cannot explain the inequality seen in the world, arguing that everyone had the same karma at the beginning of creation, this is not true because karma is beginningless.” Baladeva VidyAbhuSaNa comments on this sUtra: karmaNaH kSetrajJAnAM ca brahmavad anAditva- svIkArAt. pUrva-pUrva-karmAnusareNottarottarakarmaNi pravarttanAt na kiJcid dUSaNam smRtiz ca: puNya-pApAdikaM viSNu karyet pUrvakarmaNA anAditvAt karmaNaz ca na virodhaH kathaJcana karmaNo’nAditvenAnAvasthA tu na doSaH prAmANikatvAt. “VyAsa has accepted that karma and the jIvas are beginningless, just like Brahman. Thus there is no fault, because subsequent karma is inspired by the past karma. The SmRti confirms this: ‘Lord ViSNu makes the living entities do good or bad acts according to their past karma. There is no contradiction in this because karma has no beginning.’ If someone objects, that if karma is beginningless, then it has the defect of infinite regress, we say that is not so, because the scriptures say so.” <hr> Jiva Gosvami also describes these two categories in his ParamAtma-sandarbha (47): tadevamananta eva jIvAkhyAs taTasthAH zaktayaH. Tatra tAsAM vargadvayam. Eko vargo’nAditaH eva bhagavadunmukhaH, anyas tvanAditaH eva bhagavat- parAGmukhaH-svabhAvatastadIya jJAna-bhAvAt tadIya-jJAnAbhAvAcca. “In this way the marginal energies called jIvas are unlimited. They have two classes. One class is devoted to the Lord beginninglessly (anAdi) and the other is not devoted to the Lord beginninglessly (anAdi). This is because the former class of jIvas naturally have knowledge of the Lord and the second class of jIvas naturally do not have knowledge of the Lord.” He repeats the same in his Priti-sandarbha (1): atha jIvazca tadIyo’pi tajjJAna-saMsargAbhAva-yuktatvena tan-mAyA-parAbhUtaH sannAtma-svarUpa-jJAna-lopAn-mAyA-kalpitopAdhyAvezAc-canAdi-saMsAra- duHkhena sambadhyate iti paramAtma-sandarbhAdAveva nirUpitam asti. “Although the jIva is part of the Lord, he is devoid of knowledge about Him and this deficiency has no beginning. Because of this he is covered by mAyA. This being so, he is united with the beginningless material miseries because the knowledge of his svarUpa is covered and he is absorbed in the upAdhis, designations, created by mAyA. This was explained in the ParamAtma-sandarbha.” <hr> The Bhagavata (3.7.10) states: yad arthena vinAmuSya puMsa Atma-viparyayaH pratIyata upadraSTuH sva-ziraz chedanAdikaH “Thus the living entity, acting in meaningless ways, lives in misapprehension over his real identity, just like a man who observes his own head being cut off.” Visvanatha comments: tatra bhagavataH pRSTha-sthitayA anAdyavidyayA tamaH svarUpayA anAdi-vaimukhya-rUpa-bhagavat-pRSThasthAnAM jIvAnAM jJAnam yal lupyate tasya na vastutvaM kAraNaM nApi prayojanaM kim apy asti. “Avidya (ignorance), which is anadi, is situated on the backside of the Lord and has the nature of ignorance. She covers the knowledge of the jivas who are situated on the backside of the Lord and are non-devotees. Their non-devotion is anadi. There is no real reason or purpose for their knowledge being covered.” <hr>

I really have no idea. I believe the original Bengali biography would shed more light, as I've heard there is ample support of the sakhi-bheki idea there. I believe the Babaji-tradition was formalized sometime in the beginning of 1700's to establish the fact that a person had left the society and his family life behind, to have a sort of "confirmation" of renunciation for both the renunciate and the society left behind. Of course the clothing and the mode of practice of renunciates had existed as such since the time of the Gosvamis, just that the acceptance of vesa was turned into a ceremony, and the address babaji, a common affectionate address for sadhus, was made into a title for the renunciates.

I really have no idea. I believe the original Bengali biography would shed more light, as I've heard there is ample support of the sakhi-bheki idea there. I believe the Babaji-tradition was formalized sometime in the beginning of 1700's to establish the fact that a person had left the society and his family life behind, to have a sort of "confirmation" of renunciation for both the renunciate and the society left behind. Of course the clothing and the mode of practice of renunciates had existed as such since the time of the Gosvamis, just that the acceptance of vesa was turned into a ceremony, and the address babaji, a common affectionate address for sadhus, was made into a title for the renunciates.

Yes, a mantra is generally in a dative case. However, do you know where such a definition of a mantra would be given?

"Tatrarpita niyamitah smarane na kalah" means "there are no restrictions regarding the time for remembering them (the holy names)". I wonder where the "hard and fast rules" comes from. There are certainly some hard and fast rules, like avoiding the ten nama-aparadhas.

Maha-mantra?

No, unfortunately that's all I know of him. It is surprising in a sense that a verse so frequently presented is coming from an author of whom we know next to nothing. Mystical Tota Baba. I would also be very interested in knowing his guru and his lineage. It appears that he is among the first who were officially called "Babaji", having babaji as an actual title. He was influential in the later half of 1700's. Other early known Babaji is Vaishnava Carana Das Babaji, a siksa-guru of Siddha Krishadas Babaji, and the compiler of Pada Kalpataru. Siddha Baba was the vesa-guru of Jagannatha Das Babaji, and also instructed Madhusudana Das Babaji. He was influential sometime around the early 1800's, making the siksa-guru of his youth roughly a contemporary of Vaishnava Carana Das Babaji.

No, unfortunately that's all I know of him. It is surprising in a sense that a verse so frequently presented is coming from an author of whom we know next to nothing. Mystical Tota Baba. I would also be very interested in knowing his guru and his lineage. It appears that he is among the first who were officially called "Babaji", having babaji as an actual title. He was influential in the later half of 1700's. Other early known Babaji is Vaishnava Carana Das Babaji, a siksa-guru of Siddha Krishadas Babaji, and the compiler of Pada Kalpataru. Siddha Baba was the vesa-guru of Jagannatha Das Babaji, and also instructed Madhusudana Das Babaji. He was influential sometime around the early 1800's, making the siksa-guru of his youth roughly a contemporary of Vaishnava Carana Das Babaji.

"japet"

I don't think the list is of sahajiya sampradayas, because "sahajiya" is specifically listed as one of the thirteen. It is commonly given as a list of 13 apasampradayas. However, Tota Ramadas Baba merely says that with them he does not associate. There may be various reasons why one doesn't associate with certain groups of Vaishnavas, although they may not be deviant. Do you know where this shloka first appears, and in what context did the Baba himself write it? Here's what I have on record on Totaram Baba. The text is from the archives of veda.harekrsna.cz, most likely drawn from Haridas Dasji's Gaudiya Vaishnava Abhidhana, which was their main source. Unfortunately the text doesn't have any information on Tota Ramadas Baba's guru-pranali, something which would have been interesting in establishing his authority. The text also does not mention this famous "shloka" of his. It says that he was "the head of the Vaishnavas of Navadvipa", and presumably was influential on the later decades of the second half of 18th century. Perhaps GVA has something more on him. Could anyone with a copy look it up please? <hr><font color="darkred"> TOTA RAMDASA BABA He was a Dravidian brahmana and the head of the Vaisnavas in Navadvipa. His name was originally Ramdasa Misra. He went to Navadvipa to study the philosophical system called Nyaya. However, before he could finish his studies he was drawn to the ascetic way of life, thus he gave up his studies and went to Sri Vrndavana. There he performed bhajan at the thaura on the southern side of the temple of Sri Sri Gopinatha. He stayed there for a long period of time until he received an order from Sriman Mahaprabhu to come to Navadvipa to supervise His seva. At that time there was a great deal of chaos in regards to the seva of the Deity of Lord Caitanya because the Gosvamis were very poor and there was no permanent temple established. Thus the Deity of Mahaprabhu was taken in rotation to the houses of various sevakas. In this way His service was being cared on. From time to time, due to the threats of evil persons, the Deity had to be kept hidden. Following the Lord's order, Ramdasa went to Navadvipa and fixed his asana under the ten Ashata (peepal) trees near the Ganges. With tilak on his forehead, tulasi beads around his neck and dressed as a mendicant, he was considered to be a mad man by many of the residents of Navadvipa, who enjoyed poking fun at him, but he tolerated their abusive language with composure and equanimity. Once, out of curiosity, he asked one of the taunters a few questions regarding the problems of Nyaya. Unable to give an answer, the man later conveyed the questions to his teacher. Guessing that the man who had asked the questions must be a great scholar, the teacher went to Ramdasa and discussed philosophy with him. It is said that one morning two philosophers were arguing back and forth while bathing in the Ganges and thus spent the entire day immersed in discussion. In the evening Ramdasa Babaji came to the Ganges and immediately settled the argument between the two men. The philosophers were very surprised and pleased by the presentation of the ascetic who stood before them with begging bowl in hand. After this incident Ramdasa's fame as a great scholar was broadcast far and wide. Once while Ramdasa was absorbed in meditation, a wicked fellow placed a string of shoes around his neck. At that time Dewan Ganga Govinda Singh happened to be passing by in a boat. Shocked and aggrieved to see a Vaisnava insulted in such a way, He asked Ramdasa who the culprit was. But Ramdasa, who was in profound meditation, did not answer. Gangagovinda then went straight to the King of Navadvipa, Maharaja Krsnacandra and explained what he had seen. Upset about the incident, the king immediately went to see Sri Ramdasa to beg forgiveness for this offensive act which took place within his kingdom. Thereafter Sri Ramdasa and the king discussed at length the different systems of Indian philosophy. The king was deeply impressed with the profound and scholarly presentation of Sri Ramdasa and thus bestowed upon him the title of "Tota". From that time onwards, Sri Ramdasa became known as Tota Ramdasa. Ramdasa used to perform the seva to Sri Giridhari, keeping the Deity with him under the trees. But later, after the king had several philosophical discussions with Ramdasa, he decided to donate six acres of land, free of tax, to set up an asrama for the Deity. The house which was built on that land became famous as Bada Akhda. Even now it is being managed by the descendants of Ramdasa's disciples. Influenced by the sincere efforts and infinite concern exhibited by Sri Ramdasa, the present site of the compound and courtyard for the Deity of Mahaprabhu was chosen and improved, the old temple rebuilt and the arrangements for the daily puja were made. The day of Sri Ramdasa's disappearance is the tenth day of the full moon in the month of Pausa (Dec.-Jan.). There is a deed in Bengali written in 1785 A.D. (1202 Bengali year), stating that the land granted to Tota Ramdasa babaji for the service of the Deity of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu should be exempt from tax.</font color> <hr>

I don't think the list is of sahajiya sampradayas, because "sahajiya" is specifically listed as one of the thirteen. It is commonly given as a list of 13 apasampradayas. However, Tota Ramadas Baba merely says that with them he does not associate. There may be various reasons why one doesn't associate with certain groups of Vaishnavas, although they may not be deviant. Do you know where this shloka first appears, and in what context did the Baba himself write it? Here's what I have on record on Totaram Baba. The text is from the archives of veda.harekrsna.cz, most likely drawn from Haridas Dasji's Gaudiya Vaishnava Abhidhana, which was their main source. Unfortunately the text doesn't have any information on Tota Ramadas Baba's guru-pranali, something which would have been interesting in establishing his authority. The text also does not mention this famous "shloka" of his. It says that he was "the head of the Vaishnavas of Navadvipa", and presumably was influential on the later decades of the second half of 18th century. Perhaps GVA has something more on him. Could anyone with a copy look it up please? <hr><font color="darkred"> TOTA RAMDASA BABA He was a Dravidian brahmana and the head of the Vaisnavas in Navadvipa. His name was originally Ramdasa Misra. He went to Navadvipa to study the philosophical system called Nyaya. However, before he could finish his studies he was drawn to the ascetic way of life, thus he gave up his studies and went to Sri Vrndavana. There he performed bhajan at the thaura on the southern side of the temple of Sri Sri Gopinatha. He stayed there for a long period of time until he received an order from Sriman Mahaprabhu to come to Navadvipa to supervise His seva. At that time there was a great deal of chaos in regards to the seva of the Deity of Lord Caitanya because the Gosvamis were very poor and there was no permanent temple established. Thus the Deity of Mahaprabhu was taken in rotation to the houses of various sevakas. In this way His service was being cared on. From time to time, due to the threats of evil persons, the Deity had to be kept hidden. Following the Lord's order, Ramdasa went to Navadvipa and fixed his asana under the ten Ashata (peepal) trees near the Ganges. With tilak on his forehead, tulasi beads around his neck and dressed as a mendicant, he was considered to be a mad man by many of the residents of Navadvipa, who enjoyed poking fun at him, but he tolerated their abusive language with composure and equanimity. Once, out of curiosity, he asked one of the taunters a few questions regarding the problems of Nyaya. Unable to give an answer, the man later conveyed the questions to his teacher. Guessing that the man who had asked the questions must be a great scholar, the teacher went to Ramdasa and discussed philosophy with him. It is said that one morning two philosophers were arguing back and forth while bathing in the Ganges and thus spent the entire day immersed in discussion. In the evening Ramdasa Babaji came to the Ganges and immediately settled the argument between the two men. The philosophers were very surprised and pleased by the presentation of the ascetic who stood before them with begging bowl in hand. After this incident Ramdasa's fame as a great scholar was broadcast far and wide. Once while Ramdasa was absorbed in meditation, a wicked fellow placed a string of shoes around his neck. At that time Dewan Ganga Govinda Singh happened to be passing by in a boat. Shocked and aggrieved to see a Vaisnava insulted in such a way, He asked Ramdasa who the culprit was. But Ramdasa, who was in profound meditation, did not answer. Gangagovinda then went straight to the King of Navadvipa, Maharaja Krsnacandra and explained what he had seen. Upset about the incident, the king immediately went to see Sri Ramdasa to beg forgiveness for this offensive act which took place within his kingdom. Thereafter Sri Ramdasa and the king discussed at length the different systems of Indian philosophy. The king was deeply impressed with the profound and scholarly presentation of Sri Ramdasa and thus bestowed upon him the title of "Tota". From that time onwards, Sri Ramdasa became known as Tota Ramdasa. Ramdasa used to perform the seva to Sri Giridhari, keeping the Deity with him under the trees. But later, after the king had several philosophical discussions with Ramdasa, he decided to donate six acres of land, free of tax, to set up an asrama for the Deity. The house which was built on that land became famous as Bada Akhda. Even now it is being managed by the descendants of Ramdasa's disciples. Influenced by the sincere efforts and infinite concern exhibited by Sri Ramdasa, the present site of the compound and courtyard for the Deity of Mahaprabhu was chosen and improved, the old temple rebuilt and the arrangements for the daily puja were made. The day of Sri Ramdasa's disappearance is the tenth day of the full moon in the month of Pausa (Dec.-Jan.). There is a deed in Bengali written in 1785 A.D. (1202 Bengali year), stating that the land granted to Tota Ramdasa babaji for the service of the Deity of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu should be exempt from tax.</font color> <hr>

I wonder what he's up to these days after his colourful exit from Raganuga. At any rate, I believe the written word of Vipin Vihari Gosvami himself in his Patrika has enough credit to at least get this one historical fact straight. History of events in India is truly difficult to study. I believe the only factually reliable sources would be publications published at the time of the event. Something someone said may be repeated for generations until someone who knows better can straighten it out, whereas publications are commonly available and thus better subject to immediate critique.