raga

 

Just for fairness, I would point out that several self-proclaimed advocates of true rupanuga siddhanta on gaudiya discussions do not have gurus who are engaged in rupanuga-sadhana, or any gurus at all. I'm just pointing it out since I do not think you discourage discussions with them.

 

 

No, I do not discourage discussions with them. However, should someone ask for my opinion, I would advice those discussing with them to heed attentively and with due caution, since it is only so much theory for them, and while working on theories erring is more common than for those who speak of practical experience.

 

And no, I wouldn't recommend that someone following another path would go and debate with them on siddha-pranali. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Shortly on the concept of guru-tattva.

 

 

I am also skeptical of the implicit notion that anyone who offers a "siddha-pranali" is ipso facto a qualified mystic who can do so. As per my understanding, a guru who gives the siddha-pranali must actually know what his disciple's siddha-deha is. How does one know that the guru knows this? If my guru did not know, I would prefer he not make something up simply to satisfy tradition.

 

 

 

And certainly one ought to be reserved. In search of a guru, you won't just look for someone who sits on a lofty seat or who has given mantras to so many. Similarly, you don't search someone whom you hear has given siddha-pranali.

 

Rather you search for someone who is as described in the shastras, fixed in the service of God and free from vices such as lust, greed and so forth. A person who has crossed beyond the material world and has developed a deep attachment for the lotus feet of Radha and Krishna is a befitting guru, and such a guru can certainly act as a medium of revelation.

 

As for the question on why we don't go out of our way to challenge every other person to whom we personally might not send people for initiation and the such: Such people are already established in the position of a guru, and the advice of shastra is to not reject a Vaishnava-guru who may not be fully realized. Therefore it is not befitting to incite people's disloyalty to such gurus and question what the gurus have given them. Each has received in accordance with their eligibility and by the arrangement of Bhagavan, and Bhagavan as the original guru of all will come to see that in the end everyone will come to attain their spiritual necessities.

 

I'm also a little unclear on some points raised in the paper given by Raga. For example, it is mentioned (quoting from the commentaries by Jiva, Visvanatha, and Mukunda) that the siddha-deha is a mentally conceived form suitable for service. But later it is stated, "The siddha-deha one longs to attain is not a figment of imagination; it is one among the infinite siddha-rupas awaiting in the spiritual realm." So, which is it? Is the form conceived by the guru or is it a form in the spiritual realm seen by the guru?

 

 

A clarification on the word "conceived".

 

First of all, the word "conceive" isn't used in the context of what the guru gives. What's said is: "by dint of the empowerment received from Him, has the insight to reveal..."

 

"Conceived" is used as a translation of "antaz-cintita" and "manaz-cintita", "internally conceived" or "mentally conceived". Here "conceived" is used synonymously with "contemplated", "thought" and other such words. As in:

 

2 a : to take into one's mind ²conceive a prejudice³ b : to form a conception of : imagine (M-W)

 

This is a description of the way the sAdhaka relates to the siddha-rUpa during sAdhana. It is no different from the sAdhaka's remembrance of Krishna -- initially the form of Krishna isn't fully realized, but is rather a mental image of what Krishna might be like, a conception that becomes clarified and closer and closer to the original as the fog of ignorance within the heart dissipates through the power of devotional practices.

 

You said sakhinam-sangini means a female associate of the sakhis. I wondered about that because when I looked up sangini on the web it was translated to mean associate or companion, it was never translated to identify gender, it was always translated as companion, not female companion. Using google these were the only hits to give a translation for sangini.

 

 

The masculine form would be saGgin. The feminine is saGginI. That's why you see it used in reference to ladies and feminine objects or things.

 

 

 

Why are all versions of that verse that I could find, using the word krpalankara instead of rupalankara?

 

 

Probably they are all taken off the one and same manuscript. However as I pointed out, Visvanatha Chakravarti verifies the reading "rUpAlaGkAra" in his commentary.

 

 

 

The basic meaning of the verse changes from having an esoteric meaning when using krpalankara bhusitam, to having a more basic attire based meaning when using rupalankara bhusitam.

 

 

I wonder if you are familiar with Visvanatha's commentary.

 

sakhInAM zrI lalitA-zrI rUpa maJjaryAdInAM saGginI rUpAm AtmAnaM dhyAyed iti zeSaH | kimbhUtAm? AjJA sevAparAm AjJayA tAsAm anumatyA sevA parAM zrI rAdhA mAdhavayor iti zeSaH | punaH kimbhUtAm? tat tad rUpAlaGkAra bhUSitAM suprasiddha zrI kRSNa manohara rUpeNa zrI rAdhikA nirmAlyAlaGkAreNa bhUSitAM nirmAlya mAlya vasanAbharaNAs tu dAsya ityukteH | punaH kimbhUtAm? vAsanAmayIM cintAmayIm IkSate cintAmayam etam Izvaram ityAdivat ||

 

He explains rUpAlaGkAra as two separate modifiers of bhUSana, as follows: (rUpa-bhUSana) -- (Ornamented by) A most celebrated form that enchants the mind of Sri Krishna. (alaGkAra-bhUSana) - (Ornamented by) Sri Radhika's left-over ornaments, flower-garlands, clothes and jewellery.

 

Would be mighty strange if it were a male form that enchanted the mind of Krishna, dressed up in Radharani's left-over attire, don't you think?

 

I have read many articles on the Gaudiya Discussions site about "traditional" Gaudiya Vaisnavaism and became very confused.

 

 

Yes, you shouldn't be reading Gaudiya Discussions. I believe we even have a disclaimer somewhere for the followers of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur. They shouldn't be reading Gaudiya Discussions, but should rather follow their own respective gurus and be happy, instead of dragging their minds all over the cyberspace.

I just wrote another, lengthy reply to clarify some of the points that our pUrva-pakSins have misunderstood, or are are misrepresenting for whatever other reason.

 

However the browser ate my reply. I take that as meaning I'll just leave it at that.

I was not really looking forward to having a debate over this, especially not in a free for all environment. There are people who think of themselves as qualified advocates of true rupanuga-siddhanta without having a guru who is engaged in rupanuga-bhajana-sadhana. I find such debates distasteful, you'll pardon me for that.

 

Those who want to discuss the practice and history of siddha-pranali in further detail know where to find me if they're interested.

 

* * * * *

 

However regarding those translations, a couple of notes.

 

 

For instance this verse from the Prema Bhakti Candrika: ... krpalankara-bhusitam ... Which also appears in the Sanat Kumar Samhita: ... ajna-sevaparam tat tat krpalankara-bhusitam ...

 

In your version the word krpalankara is replaced with rupalankara. Is that a typo? Or are the other mentions of this verse on the web incorrect in your opinion?

 

 

The reading "rUpAlaGkAra-bhUSitam" is repeated in the commentary of Srila Visvanath Chakravarti. We therefore take that as the correct reading.

 

 

 

"One should meditate on oneself in a form that is a female associate of the sakhis, engaged in services on their command, decorated by Her ornaments"

 

The other translations on the web make no mention of ornaments, and instead use the word mercy from krpalankara.

 

 

The word alaGkAra means "ornament".

 

 

 

"One should meditate on oneself as being the maidservant of the gopis, and in this way one will attain their mercy"

 

When I looked at the sanskrit of the verse I could find no word for "maidservant" nor "female".

 

 

saGginI-rUpam means "in the form of a female companion".

 

 

 

Another thing. At the beginning of your PDF you state that "siddha pranali consists of a guru pranali, a channel of gurus in their siddha forms (manjari swarupa).

 

Why only a channel of gurus in their manjari swarupa?

 

 

There may be other kinds of siddha-pranalis, I haven't seen any. In the paddhati of Dhyanachandra it specifically says to meditate on the manjari-svarupas of one's guru-varga. That's where what I say comes from.

 

 

 

 

siddha-rUpeNa-antash-chintitAbhIShTa-tat-sevopayogi-dehena | "In the siddha-form means in an internally conceived, desired body suitable for His service."

 

I'm not clear on how this answers the question. Perhaps I'm missing the context, but all this says is what a siddha-rupa is. It says nothing about the qualification of one to meditate on it. Please correct me if I have misunderstood.

 

 

The passage doesn't define siddha-rUpa. It defines what "in siddha-rUpa" (siddha-rUpena) means during rAgAnugA-sAdhana.

 

Since bhAva-siddhi is attained only at the conclusion of sAdhana, and svarUpa-siddhi is the equivalent of the attainment of bhAva-bhakti (vide Visvanatha's Madhurya-kadambini ch.7), the meaning of "meditating on siddha-rUpa" has been explained for those in the stage of practice.

 

It does not indeed say anything about the qualification of one who can meditate on siddha-rUpa. However, since these are instructions for rAgAnugA-sAdhana, it is understood that if one is qualified for rAgAnugA-bhakti, one is also qualified for siddha-rUpa-sAdhana.

 

Srila Jagannatha das Babaji did not follow this Siddha Pranali tradition, as he received his vesha (sannyasa) from a babaji who was a follower of Madhusudana das babaji of Suryakunda. This Madhusudana das babaji did not know his "Siddha Pranali" so when he went to see this revered Jayakrishna das babaji he was rejected and told, "I cannot teach you about raganuga bhakti", but then Madhusudana das babaji personally met with Sri Radha who gave him everything he needed to understand, so he could practice fully enlightened bhajan.

 

 

I have personally seen siddha-pranalikas traced through Siddha Jagannath Das Babaji. There is certainly siddha-pranali given among his disciples and in the subsequent paramparas.

 

There is a nuance you're forgetting in the story of Siddha Madhusudan Das Babaji. Radha also told him to not initiate anyone or reveal his mantra to anyone on account of the extraordinary circumstances surrounding him. Interpret that as you will, I take it as her endorsement of the existing methods of bhajan that shouldn't be intervened with.

 

By the way, I think you're dating Jayakrishna Das Babaji a bit on the early side. Early 1800's is closer to the truth as far as his period of influence goes, though he may have been born in late 1700's. Certainly not in the 17th century (which means 1600-1699).

You may find this document (PDF) informative.

Anuraga in this context does not mean raga following the footsteps of the Vrajavasis as such. All raga in Vraja consists of the moods of the Vrajavasis.

 

The advanced stages of prema are described in a number of gradations. They are enlisted as prema, sneha, mana, pranaya, raga, anuraga and mahabhava. They have subdivisions as well, but those are the general headings. Anuraga is described as that love which is always experienced as ever-new and ever-fresh. All of these divisions are explained in Sri Rupa's Ujjvala-nilamani.

 

Welcome to Vraja Journal. Here you'll find news and thoughts, along with varieties of media, from Vraja-dhama. The website is maintained by Madhavananda Das and Malatilata Dasi. It will be most active during our stay in Vraja (1st December - 30th March), but will be updated at other times, too.

 

Check in often for inspirational texts and media! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

http://www.vrajajournal.com/

 

 

MOZILLA FOUNDATION RELEASES THE HIGHLY ANTICIPATED MOZILLA FIREFOX 1.0 WEB BROWSER

 

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Today's announcement marks the worldwide launch of Mozilla Firefox-with immediate availability for Windows, Mac OS X and Linux-as a free download from mozilla.org and by CD from the Mozilla Store. Firefox is now available in over a dozen languages, with many more on the way.

 

"We are delighted to be announcing this major milestone for the Mozilla Foundation and for the Firefox browser, which has been made possible thanks to the tireless effort of hundreds of community volunteers and developers around the world," commented Mitchell Baker, president of the Mozilla Foundation. "Now millions more will be able to enjoy a better web experience."

 

 

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The Mozilla Firefox browser has already garnered rave reviews and awards for its stability, trustworthiness and innovative features.

 

* Pop-up Blocking - Firefox includes an integrated pop-up blocker that lets users-not websites-decide when they will view pop-ups. Mozilla continues to set the standard in assisting users avoid annoying pop-ups.

 

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Mozilla Firefox 1.0 can be downloaded for free or purchased in a CD-ROM Edition with Firefox Guidebook from the Mozilla Foundation at http://www.mozilla.org.

 

 

About the Mozilla Foundation

 

Established in July 2003, the Mozilla Foundation is a non-profit organization hosting a collection of leading innovators whose mission is to preserve choice and innovation on the Internet. The Foundation provides organizational, legal, and financial support for the Mozilla open source software project. The Foundation is based in Mountain View, California and is the heir to the legacy & tradition of the Internet's first widely used browser, Netscape. Learn more about the Mozilla Foundation at http://www.mozilla.org.

 

The word rita (Rta) has many meanings in Sanskrit. Among them, you'll find the following: brave, honest, worshiped, respected, enlightened, luminous, truth and righteousness.

 

The name Sucarita is not related with Rita. The words are su-carita, referring to one who acts in a delicate way.

It's "triratna".

 

Convert it with the ITRANS online interface.

 

http://www.aczone.com/itrans/online/

GGM Encoding Convertor 1.1 JavaScript

 

Here's a stand-alone convertor coded in JavaScript. The convertor currently handles the following conversions:

 

Balaram > Harvard-Kyoto > Balaram

Balaram > ITRANS > Balaram

Balaram > Velthuis > Balaram

Balaram removal

 

Suggestions for alternative conversions are welcome.

 

It's been tested on Internet Explorer 6.0.28, Netscape 7.2, Mozilla Firebird 0.7 and Opera 7.23 on Windows XP, as well as Camino 0.7 and Safari 1.1.1 on Mac. I'd appreciate reports from Linux and FreeBSD users.

 

Now, why JavaScript instead of PHP or Perl? Agreed, it is certainly not as robust as the two are. However, most people wouldn't bother installing PHP or Perl just to run a simple conversion. Larger conversions should anyway not be done in a browser-based application.

./convert/

 

Save the page to use the application offline.

 

Related discussions: http://sabha.granthamandira.org/index.php?showtopic=61

 

At least in Romania Suhotra Svami told the temple president that there is no need of dikSa and he will give no more dikSa.

 

 

What's your source for this bit of news?

 

As to raganuga that all art of the sermon will be what to develop spontaneous interest to hearing the Holy Writ.

 

 

This bit of gibberish I found particularly delightful, though there are others, too.

 

Anadi - I'm glad to be welcome. Thank you.

Howdy ho. An impressive document you have there.

As far as I know, the project has been on ice ever since Satya Narayan left the ranks. Where did you hear this from?

 

then bhakta's say ONLy read iskon approved books,

don't read bhaktivida books etc,

 

 

Since when do Bhaktivinod's books need to be iskcon-approved?

 

Is he disapproved by iskcon? Are the six Gosvamis disapproved by iskcon?

 

Prabhupad's books are the best, but are they better than the books of the earlier acaryas? Did the writings of the earlier acaryas become irrelevant the moment Prabhupad wrote his books? Can we neglect the heritage from which Prabhupad drew the ideas in his books? Or can we perhaps gain a deeper appreciation for what he wrote by learning of the heritage he learned?

 

And yes, everything is in Prabhupad's books and there is nothing else, right? I could list a few dozen topics not covered in his books without even thinking much about it. Are all those teachings of the earlier acaryas not contained in Prabhupad's books irrelevant and not worth a study?

 

Is this what Prabhupad taught you? Where does he draw his legitimacy as a guru from? From the tradition, the previous acaryas?

 

 

In the Gita, Vedanta etc.. it states that the soul is beginningless. Moreover, I have heard from my Gurumaharaj that the soul is an atom of sat-chit-ananda, but I have heard from Madhava that he thinks the jiva-atma soul is not cit or ananda.

 

 

I believe the core issue on this debate is not all that much the jivAtma's possessing what would be thought of as the traditional cit or ananda, precisely as in "cetanaz cetanAnam" and "AnandaM brahma". I'm sure you know that in the Gaudiya theology (viz. CC 1.4), sat, cit and ananda are equated with the saktis sandhini, samvit and hladini, which are the three main constituents of Bhagavan's antaranga-sakti.

 

My argument boils down to the jivAtma's not inherently possessing these three aspects of antaranga-sakti. Now, discussing the relationship between sat-cit-ananda and sandhini-samvit-hladini should prove to be interesting.

 

I want to apologize for suggesting that you are Gaurasundara. It was because he expressed a number of ideas that I have only ever heard you expressing, such as your conception of the beginninglessness of the soul.

 

 

I recall another fellow saying something along those lines, that the soul is beginningless. It must have been one of those two guys in the Bhagavad gita.

If you ask me, this division of inherent/assigned siddha-deha is a clueless division missing a good number of points.

 

Why do you login as Gaurasundara?

 

It's very clear to me who you are.

 

for anyone interested, do a search at

http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/search.php?Cat=

 

for the words "Vipina Vihari Gosvami" and see who spells the words this way

 

and your translation of this verse you published on IndiaDivine:

 

vikrIDitaM vraja-vadhUbhir idaM ca viSNoH |

zraddhAnvito yaH zRNuyAd atha varNayed vA ||

bhaktiM parAM bhagavati parilabhya kAmaM |

hRd-rogam Azv apahinoty acireNa dhIraH || (bhag. 10.33.39)

 

?One who faithfully hears or describes the loving sports of Sri Krishna and the young maidens of Vraja will quickly drive away the heart-disease of lust, become sober, and attain supramundane devotion of the Lord.?

 

is also published on your website:

http://www.raganuga.org/frame.php?raganuga=qualification

 

 

 

That's my translation, and I maintain the website. Gaurasundara just likes to copy and paste from there. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Welcome to the world of paranoia!

Literally it means "the abode of Sri", referring to the presence of Laksmi-devi in the form of srivatsa on Vishnu's chest.