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Posts posted by raga
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I pointed out that these charming translations were taken from a thread on Vraja-vasa by Advitiya at the other forum.
Surely there cannot be anything wrong with giving references?
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Thanks to Jagadananda for giving us the translation of these words of wisdom.
(You can give credit to translators even if they aren't followers of Prabhupada.)
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This isn't written by Rupa Goswami; Radha-kripa-kataksha-stava-raja is an old, traditional hymn.
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These passages are from the translations of Advaita Das, who's made a number of interesting notes on Visvanatha's Sarartha-darshini.
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In this thread, most of the verses and translations are collected from Gadadhar Prana Das's "Why Did Chaitanya Mahaprabhu Come, and What Did He Come to Give?".
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Knows madanakhya-mahabhava meaning?
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Was the reply satisfactory, or do you need something more on this?
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I am not one to start defending or challenging it, as the status of the issue is of little consequence to myself personally.In regard to Pundarika Vidyanidhi, it is a fact that he smoked a hukka. But Gadadhara Pandit realized it was an offence to see him as a conditioned soul, and he took diksa from him. But then we need to use some discrimination and we shouldn't be fooled by baul gurus who have harems and whose followers say they are just followers of the raga-marga.
In regard to the disiples giving money to a guru who used it for buying material pleasures for his son. If the disciples don't disagree, this doesn't make it right. What do Rupa-Sanatana say about these things? That is our concern. Would Rupa-Sanatana agree that a man who is a professional guru can bestow "siddha-pranali" on his son, or anyone else? I really would challenge the proposition that Rupa-Sanatana would agree.
However I've heard some explain that the smoking of hukka in the case of some Goswamis is a matter of upholding a certain profile, that they are expected to be doing that by the people. In other words, it's a part of a guru-image and thus serves a particular purpose.
As I pointed out earlier, if the disciples don't find something objectionable and in fact expect something, and thus give donations, I don't see it as particularly wrong. Even the TVs and radios of your Sridhar and Govinda Maharajas, are they not sponsored by disciples? Are news in all languages of the world or the Indian cricket league really vital matters for a guru?
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I believe "jati-gosani" here refers to the jati-Vaishnavas, that's the way I've heard it often explained. They are a good deal different from the hereditary Goswamis, and are considered unorthodox both by the "orthodoxy" and the Gaudiya Math. Quoting from Bhrigumuni's thesis on guru-tattva (he's from ISKCON/GM, so it should be bonafide /images/graemlins/smile.gif), there's a good section on history there:Then again, Totarama das Babaji declared:
aula, baula, kartabhaja, neda, daravesa, sani, sahajiya, sakhibeki, smarta, jata-gosani,
ativadi, cudadhari, gauranga-nagari tato kahe, ei terara sanga nahi kari
The aula, baula, kartabhaja, neda, daravesa, sani, sahajiya, sakhibheki, smarta, jata-gosani, ativadi, cudadhari, gauranga-nagari - do not associate with them.
<font color="#993399">The jati vaisnavas comprise the fourth class of Gaudiya Vaisnavas. Kennedy writes that it consists of the offspring of babajis and matajis, and others who have become Vaisnavas after being rejected by their own community for some reason. (1) The jati vaisnavas consider themselves for religious reasons as voluntarily standing outside the varnasrama system. This community remained more or less unknown until 1901, when the Census of Bengal for the first and last time included a hierarchy of castes, placing the jati vaisnavas very low. However, no less than about 500 000 Hindus claimed to belong to this jati. The religious rites of this community were exclusively Vaisnava, even though much more simple than those of the grhasthas. Marriage, for example, comprised of no more than a change of garlands in front of the guru. The minimal other samskaras that are followed also do not follow the brahmanical standard, but are adaptations of devotional rituals. The low place given to this group in the census of 1901 led to a gradual sanskritisation (2) of it, so that it today appears to have in many places lost its distinctive character, its members being similar to the grhasthas (3) described above. Some classify the jati vaisnavas as heterodox Gaudiya Vaisnavas. (4)
1) Kennedy (1926), 178
2) This term was introduced by M.N. Srinivas to indicate the historical process by which the beliefs and practices of lower castes tend to converge with those of higher groups, as the former try to emulate the latter in order to raise their social status. My usage of this standard term does not indicate that I believe that there is any one Sanskritic Hinduism or clearly distinguishable higher and lower strata of Hinduism.
3) O’Connell (1986), 51-53
4) E.g. Kedarnatha Datta Bhaktivinoda. See Shukavak Dasa (1999), 124.
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Gaudiya Vaisnava practicioners can be divided into four classes: goswamis or hereditary brahmana gurus; grhasthas or householder laity; babajis or renunciates; and jati vaisnavas or a class of hereditary laymen, originally stemming from wayward renunciates and persons who had been ostracised from their own community. The last group has during the last century to a large extent become amalgamated with the second. There are also some modern groups of Gaudiya Vaisnavas (e.g. ISKCON) that don’t fit into the traditional vamsas and parivaras and who have some peculiar teachings, but that still generally are held to belong to the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya. </font color>
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Though I'm obviously not discounting the need for a devotee to control their various urges, that really isn't what the verse says.Accoring to Upadeshamrtama verse 1, a guru needs to be austere.
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First of all, it doesn't speak about being austere. It speaks about controlling the urges. These two aren't necessarily synonymous, there's a great deal of subjectivity in what's befitting for each individual. yuktAhAra-vihArasya etc.
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While the title Goswami, or Gosain, is also given to renunciates, it is also frequently used for others. (Vide doya koro sri-acharya advaita-gosai and so forth.) It is also commonly in use as a family name.Also, I found it entertaining that it was said his father was a Gosvami. I thought "Gosvami" was a title given to renunciates, not householders. Why was his father using money from disciples to live such a lavish lifestyle?
Why was the father using money from disciples to live such a lavish lifestyle? That I do not know. However one would assume that the disciples were well aware of this, and if they gave nevertheless, it cannot be considered an abuse of the donation as such.
While I am not saying this is parallel, as I am not in a position to judge that, one would do well to remember the story of Gadadhar Pandit meeting Pundarika Vidyanidhi before being overly "entertained" by biographical accounts such as this one. Don't just take something from the middle, look at how the story ends; that's something by which you can determine how qualified the individual truly was.
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With regards to lobha, please refer to the document posted, and Visvanatha's reference from RVC on gradations of lobha.
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It's quite befitting how only certain parts of the story are taken to make the Goswami look bad. It isn't posted how he left all that behind, and it isn't posted what then became of him.
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I believe that would be Kusakratha's edition.
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Traditionally you'll always want to keep the senior person on your right side (looking from your own perspective, of course when you're standing opposite to them it's the right side). Hence, Radha is on Krishna's left side, Gaura is on Nitai's left side, Krishna is on Balaram's left side and so forth. Therefore the gurus also take a successive position on the left side of their own gurus.
According to Bhakti-sandarbha (286), the vyasti-guru (the empowered individual guru) is on the left side of the samasti-guru (aggregate guru). Hence the principle of staying on the left side of the senior exists even in the archetypal guru-features.
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Srila Raghunath Das Goswami's Vrata-utsava calendar for 2005-2006 from Sri Krishna Chaitanya Shastra Mandir, now available online!
http://www.krishnacaitanya.com/panjika/
The entire panjika is entered in as time permits, more features for printing and viewing to come shortly.
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Here are a couple of names collected from various sources I have on file.
Acala-dharaka – He who lifted the Govardhana-hill
Acyuta –He who is infallible
Aghasura-vinasi – He who defeated Agha-demon
Barhavatamsaka – He who wears a peacock-feather
Bhakta-vatsala – He who is affectionate towars His devotees
Bhramaka – He who is a cheat
Bimbasya – He whose lips are like bimba-fruits
Caru-locana – He who has beautiful eyes
Caura-jara-sikha-mani – He who is the crest-jewel of thieves
Dama-baddhahvayi – He who was bound with a rope
Damodara – He who was bound around the belly
Danindra-candra – He who is the king of moonlike tax-collectors
Dhenukasura-sanghata – He is the killer of the ass-demon Dhenuka
Dina-bandhu – He who is the friend of the fallen
Ghana-syama – He who is of a darkish colour (ghana and syama both mean darkish, blackish)
Giridhari – He who is the lifter of Govardhan
Girivaradhari – He who is lifter of Govardhan, the greatest of mountains
Gokulananda – He who gives bliss to Gokula
Gokulananda-kari – He who is the cause of Gokula’s bliss
Gokula-bandhu – The friend of Gokula
Gokula-candra – He who is the moon of Gokula
Gokula-ranjana – He who delights Gokula
Gokula-vallabha – He who is dear to Gokula
Gokulendra – He who is the king of Gokula
Gopala – He who is a cowherd-boy
Gopala-kamini-jara – He who is the paramour lover of the passionate cowherd ladies
Gopala-ramani-bharta – He who is the master of the young wives of the cowherds
Gopali-citta-harta – He who stole the minds of the gopis
Gopanganavrta – He who is surrounded by beautiful-limbed cowherd ladies
Gopa-nari-priya – He who is dear to the wives of the cowherd men
Gopa-svami – He who is the lord of the cowherds
Gopa-vesa-dhara – He who is dressed like a cowherd
Go-patha – He who follows the path of cows
Gopati – He who is the master of cows
Gopati-nandana – He who is the prince of the cowherds
Gopendra-nandana – He who is the son of the king of cowherds
Gopika-priti-ranjana – He who delights the gopis with His love
Gopi-jana-vallabha – He who is dearmost for the gopis
Gopinatha – He who is the master of the gopis, or He whose master are the gopis
Gopika-nayanananda – He who delights the eyes of the gopis
Gopika-prana-vallabha – He who is lord of the lives of the gopis
Gopi-kanta – He who is the lover of the gopis
Gopi-prana-dhana – He who is wealth of the life of the gopis
Gopi-priya-jana – He who is the dearmost of the gopis
Gopi-raksana – He who protects the gopis
Gopi-vastra-haraka – He who stole the gopis’ clothes
Gopi-vimohana – He who enchants all the gopis
Gotra – He who is the protector of cows
Govardhana-dhari – He who held up Govardhan with His hand
Govinda – He who gives pleasure to cows, gopis, gopas and senses
Govinda-gopala – He who is the cowherd boy who gives pleasure to cows, gopis and gopas
Hari – He who steals
Indivara-dala-syama – He is dark like a blue lotus petal
Kama-kala-nidhi – He who is expert in amorous arts
Kamalabha – He who is like a lotus
Kamalaksa – He who has lotus-eyes
Kami – He who is passionate
Kana – An affectionate nickname of Krishna
Kanhaiya – An affectionate nickname of Krishna
Kala-nidhi – He who is a treasurehouse of artistic skils
Kalindi-prema-puraka – He who is a flood of love flowing in the Yamuna
Kaliya-damana – He who subdues the Kaliya serpent
Kamadeva – He who is the god of love
Kamala-locana – He who has lotus eyes
Kamala-mukha-lolaksa – He who looks at Radha’s face with eager eyes
Kamala-patraksa – He whose eyes are like the petals of lotus flowers
Kandarpa – He who is like Cupid
Kandarpa-dipanah – He who awakens amorous desires
Kandarpa-koti-lavanya – He who is equal to millions of Cupids
Karuna-sindhu – He who is an ocean of mercy
Kesava – He who has beautiful hair
Kesi-ha – He who killed the Kesi-demon
Kesi-vadha – He who killed the Kesi-demon
Kisora – He who is a youthful boy
Kokila-svara-bhusana – He who is ornamented with a voice like that of the cuckoo-birds
Krpa-kara – He who is merciful
Krsna-candra – The moonlike all-attractive one
Kunja-bihari – He who enjoys in the forest groves
Lavanya-lahari-sindhuh – He who is an ocean of waves of handsomeness
Lila-kamala-pujita – He who is worshiped with a pastime lotus
Lila-manusa-vigraha – He who enjoys pastimes in a human form
Madana-manohara – He who steals the mind of Cupid
Madana-mohana – He who enchants Cupid
Madana-gopala – He who is a Cupid-like cowherd boy
Madhava – He who is beautiful like the spring-season, who is intoxicating like honey-wine, and who …
Madhumardana – He who extracts honey
Madhusudana – He who defeated the Madhu-demon, or He who defeats honey in sweetness, and He is the husband (dhava) of all beauty (ma).
Mala-kara – He who makes garlands
Manohara – He who captures the mind
Mina-ketana – He who is like Cupid
Mukunda – He who is the giver of liberation
Murali-manohara – He who enchants with his fluteplaying
Murali-vadana – He who is the player of flute
Murari – He who is the enemy of Mura-demon
Nagara – He who is a lover
Nanda-dulala – He who is the dear son of Nanda
Nanda-gopala – He who is the cowherd boy of Nanda
Nanda-kumara – He who is the son of Nanda
Nanda-nandana – He who is the son of Nanda
Nanda-kisora – He who is the youthful son of Nanda
Nanda-suta – He who is the son of Nanda
Nanda-tanuja - He who is the son of Nanda
Navanitasana – He who enjoys fresh butter
Navanita-taskara – He who steals fresh butter
Nava-yauvana – He who is eternally youthful
Navina nirada – He who is like a fresh raincloud
Parama-karuna – He who is supremely merciful
Phullaravinda-nayana – He whose eyes are like blossoming lotuses
Pitambara – He who is dressed in yellow clothes
Prananatha – He who is the lord of life (of the Vrajavasis)
Prema-niketana – He who is a divine abode of prema
Priya-karaka – He who acts in a lovely way
Pundarika – He who is like a lotus flower
Pundarikaksa – He whose eyes are like lotuses
Putana-moksa-dayaka – He who liberated Putana
Radhalingana-sammoha – He who is bewildered by Radha’s embraces
Radharadhayita – He who worships Radha
Radha-citta-pramodaka – He who delights the mind of Radha
Radha-hrdayambhoja-satpada – He who is the bumblebee attracted to the lotus of Radha’s heart
Radha-kama-phala-prada – He who gives the fruit of Radha’s desires
Radha-kanta – He who is a lover of Radha
Radha-manmatha-vaibhava – He who is the Cupid who attracts Radha
Radha-mohana – He who enchants Radha
Radha-mukhabja-martanda – He who is the sun who makes the lotus of Radha’s face bloom
Radha-nartana-kautuka – He who is eager to dance with Radha
Radha-nayaka – He who is the lover of Radha
Radha-natha – He who is the lord of Radha
Radha-pati – He who is the master of Radha
Radha-prana-natha –He who is the lord of Radha’s life
Radha-prana-sama – He to whom Radha is as dear as His life
Radha-ramana – He who gives pleasure to Radha
Radha-rati-sukhopeta – He who enjoys amorous pastimes with Radha
Radha-sanjata-sampriti – He who is overjoyed because of Radha
Radha-vadanabja-madhuvrata – He who is a bee attracted to Radha’ lotus face
Radha-vallabha – He who is the beloved of Radha
Radha-vasi-kara – He who fascinates Radha
Radhikanandana – He who gives bliss to Radhika
Radhika-ranjana – He who delights Radhika
Radhika-ramana – He who gives pleasure to Radhika
Radhikanatha – He who is the lord of Radhika
Rajiva-locana – He whose eyes are like lotuses
Rama – He who gives pleasure, He who enjoys
Ranga – He who enjoys
Ranga-mahiruha – He who is a tree of enjoyment
Ranjaka – He who is charming
Ranjana – He who is charming
Rasavihari – He who is the enjoyer of rasa
Rasaraja – He who is the king of relishers
Rasa-rasayana – He who brings nectar of life to the rasa-dance
Rasika-sekhara – He who is the best among enjoyers of rasa
Rasikendra-sekhara – He who is the king among the best relishers of rasa
Rasikendra-cudamani – He who is the crown-jewel among the kings of rasa
Sankhacuda-vadhoddama – He who killed Sankhacuda-demon
Sarva-kama-pradayaka – He who is the fulfiller of all desires
Sikhanda-cudaya – He who wears a peacock-feather in His head
Sindura-tulitadharah – He whose lips are red like sindura
Srngara-murti – He who is the very form of amorous love
Subha-darsana – He who is beautiful to behold
Su-bhru-yugala – He whose two eyebrows are beautiful
Su-kapola-yuga – He whose two cheeks are beautiful
Su-lalataka – He whose forehead is beautiful
Sundara – He who is beautiful
Syama – He who has a darkish complexion
Syamasundara – The beautiful, bluish Krishna
Tribhangi – He whose form is bent from three places
Trnavartantaka – He who was the end of Trinavarta demon
Ujjvala-vigraha – He who is the very form of conjugal love
Ulukhali – He who was bound to a grinding mortar
Vanamali – He who wears a beautiful garland of forest flowers
Vamsi-dhari – He who carries a flute in with Him
Vamsi-vihari – He who rejoices in playing His flute
Vamsi-gopala – He who is the flute playing cowherdboy
Vamsivata-vihari – He who enjoys at Vamsivata
Venu-vadya-visarada – He who is an expert flute-player
Visalaksa – He who has large eyes
Vraja-jana-palana – He who protects the Vrajavasis
Vraja-mohana – He who bewilders Vraja
Vraja Uttamsa – The flower-crown of Vraja
Vrajendra-nandana – He who is the son of the king of Vraja
Vrajera rakhala – He who is the protector of Vraja
Vrndapati – He who is the master of Vrinda
Vrndavana-candra – He who is the moon of Vrindavana
Vrndavana-cara – He who roams in the forests of Vrindavana
Vrndavana-natavara – He who is the most expert dancer in Vrindavana
Vrsabhanusuta-pati – He who is the master of the daughter of Vrisabhanu
Vrsasura-vighataka – He who defeated the Vrisa (Arista) demon.
Yamalarjuna-mukti-da – He who liberated the Yamalarjuna-trees
Yamuna-tira-sacari – He who wanders on the banks of Yamuna
Yasoda-dulala – He who is the darling son of Yasoda
Yasoda-khani-mani – He who is a jewel from Yasoda’s womb
Yasoda-nandana – He who is Yasoda’s son
Yasoda-vatsala – He who loves Yasoda
Yasoda-yasa – He who is the fame of Yasoda
Yasomati-nandana – He who is Yasoda’s son
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I've said my share on this for now. If someone wants to follow up on some things I've mentioned, you know how to find me. I find this thread heading to a too scattered and distasteful direction to merit addressing any more points, lest they be raped by some of our gracious audience.
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I hate to break the news, but this proposal is really off the wall.Anonymous:
There is no order in the Gosvamis' books to perform harinama-sankirtana either. Have you read the books of the Gosvamis? If so, which ones may I ask?
However there is no order to perform sankirtana of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra as far as I know. That notwithstanding, since it is not in opposition to their instruction to perform harinam-sankirtan, this approach has been widely adopted.
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As I pointed out, that is how I choose to see it, and that is a sensible view of it in my judgement. You can infer all kinds of views from all kinds of stories, of course. However even yourself, you're now saying that there was "a palm-leaf with the names of the siddha-gurus listed on it". Doesn't that mean it is necessary, then?The real issue at stake is that according to Jayakrishna das Babaji and his followers, all the "traditionalist" Gurus should tell the disciple the details of the "siddha-pranali". In the well known story of Madhusudana das Babaji, he didn't get told this by his Guru. Then when Madhusudana das Babaji couldn't find his Guru later on, after Jayakrishna das Babaji told him he needed to find out the details of the "siddha-pranali" in order to be taught raganuga-sadhana, Madhusudana das Babaji went to drown himself in Radha-kunda. He felt totally hopeless. But then the next thing happened. Srimate Radharani saved him from drowning and gave him the document he needed, a palm-leaf with the names of the siddha-gurus listed on it.
Previously, Raga, you said that you feel that this story shows that Srimate Radharani approved of the convention propagated by Jayakrishna das Babaji, that a person needed to have this document listing his siddha-pranali before a person was engaged in raganuga sadhana. But I believe this is just a meaning that you choose to infer from the story.
I didn't get a satisfactory answer to my response to your point about Jagannath Das Babaji. You said he didn't practice siddha-pranali, to which I pointed out that I have even myself seen siddha-pranalikas traced through him, pranalikas that he obviously gave to his disciples. You then replied that you follow the siksha-parampara. However that doesn't change the fact that the evidence of Jagannath Das Babaji's having followed the "siddha-pranali system" is irrefutable.
If memory serves, he was at the bank of the river while meditating on his manjari-svarupa and then came across the anklet. He certainly was acquainted with his manjari-deha prior to the incident. There are several versions to the story, but I can't recall any of them differing in this respect.Other readings of the story are also possible. And added to that is the fact that when Syamananda Prabhu found the anklet of Sri Radha, simply coming in contact with that anklet awakened manjari-bhava within him. When in fact he had been inititated by a sahkya-bhava Guru, Hridaya-Caitanya Prabhu.
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No, that isn't concerning siddha-pranali in BRS. That's concerning the svarupa of the jiva as latent or otherwise.Please post to this group if you don't mind. If there is clear description of "siddha-pranali" in BRS, then I want to know.
Did you notice the account of Gopal Bhatta Goswami bestowing kama-gayatri and siddha-deha to Shrinivas, cited in the document I posted? I believe that's an important precedent.
Now, one may say that there isn't a pranali given there, just the siddha-deha of Gopal Bhatta and of his disciple, Shrinivas. However, consider this: That's all there was to the pranali at that time, since Gopal Bhatta is one of the ashta-manjaris and hence at the root of the pranali.
With regards to biographical accounts, I also recall hearing of an account of Advaita Acharya revealing someone's siddha-deha, narrated in one of these biographical works, but I've never tracked it down.
It is true that siddha-pranali as such isn't explicitly spelled out in the writings of the Goswamis. However the legitimate theological premises for the practice are there, that can hardly be contested. As mentioned, Dhyanachandra Goswami, and his guru Gopal Guru Goswami, wrote of such practice in their paddhatis. (Unfortunately I have only Dhyanachandra's paddhati at my disposal, I hear they are fairly identical.)
The way you'll see it practiced nowadays (aside complaints about people not being qualified, I mean in its shape) is how the tradition came to practically implement the dilemma described in my essay about contemplating on siddha-deha during the stage of sadhana. That's the way it has been practiced for centuries, and the practice is virtually universal among Gaudiyas seeking for manjari-bhava outside the Gaudiya Math and its offshoots.
As to whether someone can attain his siddha-deha without first hearing of it from the guru: Yes, in principle it is possible on the strength of extremely strong samskaras of bhajana from the previous life. However, for someone without prior bhakti-samskaras such attainment will be troublesome, as the sadhaka's conception will not be clear.
This is why you read in Bhaktivinoda's Jaiva Dharma the hearing of ekAdaza-bhAva labeled as upAsaka-parizkRti, or the refinement of the worshiper's conception as some have aptly translated it.
It is also, in theory, possible to attain Krishna without hearing descriptions of him. Let all that awaken from within, one may say, why should I hear about it from a guru. Or descriptions of Radha and the sakhis, why should I hear all that. It isn't really necessary since the holy name has the power to reveal everything. And why should I hear of my own svarupa? The holy name reveals it whenever is the time for it. That does not stand to reason, as far as I am concerned.
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The reason why I'm saying it'll be there in a week or so is I need to dig through the commentaries before saying much on the topic. I'll get back to you with this one by e-mail.Then again, can you please advise me where in Bhaktirasamrtasindhu the interesting things that you have found are, and I will take a look in the translations I have with me. We have Srila Sridhar Maharaj's bengali edition here in my house, and I have a native Bengli speaker living with me now.
There are also points I wish to make regarding the passage of Brahmasutra you cite, however for that I'll have to go over the entire section with good time and compare some other tikas as well.
BTW if you have GB or other works in Sanskrit that we don't have at GGM, consider sharing them for the good of everyone?
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Would you happen to have the Sanskrit for this section of the commentary at your disposal? Unfortunately I also have just a translation here. Is that Kusakratha's you're presenting?Muralidhar:
Your interpretation of the word "attained" is wrong my friend. Indeed, Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusan specifically deals with this point in his Govinda Bhasya commentary.
I'd like to get to the bottom of this. There is also a body of evidence from Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu I came across in my recent studies that hasn't been brought up or addressed in this debate. (Expect to see more on that in a week or so at you-know-where.)
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And this is precisely the reason why I am not responding to a good many of the things you keep educating others about. If you do not entertain even a theoretical possibility that there might be a vision more correct than yours, what's the point in discussing.Shiva:
Look, you're not going to change my mind on these things no matter what you write.
kRpAlaGkAra and rUpAlaGkAra - I already pointed out twice that the second is what Visvanath Chakravarti supports as the correct reading. If you want to disagree with him in favor of what you find the more esoteric alternative (without understanding the esoterica of Radharani's left-over ornaments), please be my guest.
Gaura-lila vs. Krsna-lila
in Spiritual Discussions
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No, madanakhya-mahabhava.