imported_servegod

i think ashvatthama is due to be the next compiler of scriptures in the next caturyuga.

When does one draw the line between violence and non-violence?

It is a duty of Vedic ruler to protect animals. Make sure animals are fed and kept in healthy condition. Kshatriyas are allowed to kill animals only to control the population of a particular species. Meat-eating is forbidden. Animals have souls. Any specific qns?

Haribol, Krishna = All attractive Supreme Lord Radha = Internal Potency of the Lord Wherever there is Radha, there is Krishna. One cannot exist without the other. Krishna had relation with Radha outside of marriage, true. But, Krishna is God, Radha is Goddess - they are not limited by material qualifications of moral behaviour. If they were, how could they be classified as God? A legitimate question would be 'if Krishna is trying to guide the world on religious principles, why does He engage with women outside of marriage?' The answer to that is that Krishna comes on earth to do two things. One, to defeat irreligious principles, such as demonic kings like Duryodhana. More importantly, however, he comes on earth to give pleasure to his devotees. Radha is Krishna's dearest devotee. Krishna therefore satisfies her without regard to material morals. How are we to distinguish between the behaviour of Krishna that we should follow and the behaviour that we should not imitate? That is the whole point of guru. Guru explains what is Krishna's instructions and what is Krishna's lila. Instuctions we follow. Lila we admire but DO NOT imitate. Hope that helps. Hare Krsna

Haribol, "What i have a problem with is the BIAS that has crept into his work which is evident at the beginning of the text, after which he seemed to have settled down a bit." Could you please give an example of the 'bias' you talk of? "My problem is that god cant be found in one religion, god must be found in every religion" God is found in every bona-fide religion i.e. religion based on scriptures predicted in the Vedas. Islam, Christianity, Buddhism etc all predicted in the Vedas. God is found in most religions, Prabhupada does not deny that. If we examine Jesus' teachings, God is found in that. Mohammed's teachings one can find God etc. However, these religions have constantly been interpreted to suit the followers' lifestyles. For example, Jesus' teachings have been INTERPRETED to say that meat-eating is alrite. Prabhupada said that chanting the names of God is the only way, whether you chant Krishna or Allah, the potency of God is in the name. The name however must be authorised. For example, Jesus is not an authorised name, because Jesus is the name of the Son of God, not God Himself. "to put prabhupada's translation at the forefront and have 'sects' / 'cults' like ISKON preach is as the only way is a slap on the face of alot of hindu's" It is not Prabhupada's translation which claims that Krishna is supreme. Every scholar in the world agrees that there is a verse in the Bhagavad Gita which says 'Just surrender to me. I will deliver you from all sinful reactions.' No-one would argue against Prabhupada that the Bhagavad Gita says 'I (Krishna) am the source of all material and spiritual worlds. Everything emanates from me.' There is therefore no interpretation involved. Let's forget the purports even, it all boils down to the following: If Krsna says he is supreme and no-one is equal to him, then that is the truth, unless one wants to deny the validity of the Vedic scriptures. Interpretation is to say otherwise. There is no sect involved. ISKCON is inviting everyone to chant the name of Krsna because it is the most intimate name of God. If one has something against the name of Krsna, then chant another authorised name/designation of the Lord e.g. Christ, Jehovah, Allah or Buddha. No problem. World religion. Sanatana Dharma. No sects, no divisions, just everyone chanting name of God - and the world will become spiritually infused. Hare Krsna.

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya I tire from arguing, so let's just agree to disagree. My understanding of Lord Shiva's statement in the Srimad Bhagavatam, when he says 'I prayed to Krishna to become free from ignorance' is that Lord Shiva is the Supreme Lord of the cosmic manifestation specifically because he was freed from ignorance, and he is consequently the highest, most exalted, most auspicious devotee of Krishna. Obviously the shastra is not clear enough for you. I have nothing more to say. Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya (N.B. Interesting Conversation from the acharya that I follow: Devotee: I have a friend who acknowledges after reading the Srimad Bhagavatam that Krishna is superior to Lord Shiva, yet he is still chanting Om Namo Shivaya. Srila Prabhupada: What is the problem with that? If he understands Lord Shiva's position, then he is serving Lord Shiva like we serve the Vaishnavas. Lord Shiva will guide him to Krishna.)

Nectarean Mellows > >Material civilization- Krishna explains that the fire of material desire however much ghee you put in the fire, however expensive and opulent that ghee may be it, only makes the fire bigger. Material desires can never be quenched by any amount of sensory satisfaction. The soul is searching for that loving relationship with God that is dormant with the heart of every living being. So how to attract? We must give our children the understanding as well as the higher taste of what Sanatana dharma and Hindu culture is really about. > >And really that means we have to really put a great amount of emphasis in guiding them in this way. I know one young boy he is a college student. He took an interest in the teachings of Gita, when he told me that when I go to school everyone laughs at me because I am not smoking the cigarettes with them, I am not talking to the girls the way they do, I am not going to cinemas and talking about TV shows and all these things. They think I am crazy. They think I am out-caste. They think that there is something wrong with me. In fact my friends don't even like me anymore, that social pressure is a big problem. I told the boy that in the temple there are so many youths who are in colleges who are dynamic, you meet some of them, come one Sunday meet some of them. He developed friends with them, he came to the conclusion that it is not strange. I am not a misfit, I am not strange, I am not an out-caste. There are other people like me and he made friends with those people and they are completely giving up all sinful activities. They are still all studying in colleges but they have alliances with each other. They are studying for God. They are chanting the names of God, they are following the principles of the Gita, they are studying the Gita, they are associating with sadhus. What we have to do for our children is we have to create a society amongst them by which people of their age confirm whatever faith they have. That is essential otherwise they go and associate with their friends, they will all be erased. What you associate with, you become like. And therefore at our temples and at our cultural canters we must somehow or other create a society of youth who are practicing amongst each other and reconfirming amongst each other. You know in the western world there is always the generation gap. You have heard of this. The generation gap? When I was growing up in America in my teens there was a mantra and all the youth chanted this mantra constantly and not only that but we lived by it and you know what that mantra is--Never trust anyone over 30. That is the law of the western world amongst the youth. Never trust anyone over 30 years old. They are old fashioned; they are of another generation they are just trying to disturb our lives to stop the progress of our lives. The no 1 song on the radio when I was a youth one singer was preaching to the parents and in one verse he says, "Get out of the new road if you can lend a hand. Come mothers and fathers throughout the land, don't criticize what you cannot understand. All your ideas, your sons and your daughters have betrayed your command. Now get out of the new way if you can't lend a hand". That's western Consciousness and as we accept all these devices of the west, western forms of education, you also get all of these western psychological ideas. It is not to the same degree but it is there deeply imprinted in our youths of Indian's hearts because of this western influence. They don't think what the elder generation has to tell them. It is practical in their lives therefore there has to be a society we have to create a society of youths, we can't expect them to sit in a session with all elderly people and listen to pravachan of the Sanatana dharma philosophy. And even if they do it won't sink in. We have to have programs specially designed for youths amongst themselves. Just like for instance our Devamrit, he is young, he is dynamic, he is successful, he was a big, big banker in Standard Chartered Bank, an executive manager with masters degrees in several fields, they can relate to him. He is just about their age, he has gone through the same things that their generation is going through. When he speaks to them, they think, "Ah yes, you are like me and yes you are taking to spiritual life with such conviction". They listen. We must come to their level and we must inject knowledge of God accordingly and there is no doubt if we can somehow or other mobilize amongst each other, give up our sectarian ideas, this is our path. If we can just come together to reach out to saving the youth from spiritual disaster, you'll find a revolution, a renaissance of spirituality in this nation because they are this far from Krishna and they are looking for something meaningful and dynamic in their life and they'll go way out, this way looking in the wrong direction unless we can convince them right here and we can. There is no doubt. They will be convinced, but these considerations must be very, very seriously taken in our mind. These are my humble suggestions from own experience. Sanatana dharma, Gita must be preached scientifically and rationally. Bhagavad Gita must be preached scientifically and rationally. So that the western scientific questioning minds; we can't expect them to accept it on faith. Their faith has been very much disturbed by all these doubting scientific ideas. They are taught in school that creation takes place through big bangs. There is no place for God in big bang theories, Darwin's theory of evolution. There is no room for the thought of God when you study these things. Their faith is very much in neutral condition. They haven't rejected but they haven't been convinced to accept. It must be presented in a way that is convincing and scientific and dynamic and they must also see there is a life that they can build around it. Otherwise they wont care for it. We cannot expect them to accept the tradition ritualistic form of Hinduism. We have to give them the Bhagavad Gita as Krishna gave it to Arjuna. And they will accept it. > > >H H Radhanath Swami Maharaj

Hare Krishna, "Yes, when Krishna receives Brahma Gyan, it is it His greatness. But when Shiva (the manifested Shiva), teaches the Mortal beings that Krishna is the highest form to be worshipped, and then it is servitude." Why would Krishna not want to receive Brahma Gyan? He loves to hear about his own energy. There is no inconsistency. I am not denying that Krishna is receiving Brahma Gyan. But you are denying that Shiva means what he says when he says 'Krsna is the highest form to be worshipped'. "Note: Now, what is a self realized soul?" The best of self-realised souls = God, yes, and as Shiva goes on, he describes Krishna as the only original person...the one who he prayed to to be freed from ignorance. Funny how you deny those shastras?!? "My dear Lord, You are the best of the demigods who can offer benedictions." ...and it goes on to say not to ask for benedictions from Vishnu, because he is transcendental to the modes. But it is recommended to ask for boons from Shiva. Krishna did, Rama did, Ravana did etc... "Yes, Narayana existed before manifested Shiva. " It does not say manifested Shiva in quote. Interesting how you inserted a word in there. "The lord of the world Maha Vishnu’s appearance is in linga rupi Mahesvara (Translations of your preceptors are distorted)." The translation is glance, not appearance. Maha Vishnu's glance over Shiva-Shakti creates the material manifestation. And Shambhu is manifest from Vishnu's forehead, which is in the same scripture. As for the Maha Upanishad. Firstly, it states that Narayana desired and so manifested Shiva. Then it goes on to talk of the pure spirit aspect, the impersonal brahman aspect which is Shiva. I don't deny that. But still, the basis of that impersonal brahman is Parabrahman, Narayana. "There is no Krishna in Rig Veda. Krishna is shown to be an incarnation of Lord Vishnu in Bhagavatam. And Krishna appears in very recent Upanishads. Before that in Rig Veda, Rudra is known as Gopisvara." No, The Bhagavatam states at the very beginning that the original primeval source of all spiritual and material worlds is Krishna (Vasudevah). Rudra is Gopisvara. He controls the gopis. Which is why gopis pray to Shiva to get Krishna as their husband. Upanishads are not recent, especially Gopal Tapaniya Upanishads. "Why: A person will entrust one’s potency -- the desire, the seed, and the faculty of cognition (Devi in short) to another man called Saktiman?" Because Brahma states that the Supreme Lord does not engage with the illusory energy, Mayadevi. "Yes, It is the absolute truth. In Kali, the Karpura-Gauranga truth gets hidden in black ignorance" Only Gopala Tapaniya Upanishad is not talking of the age of Kali. You have once again added that in. "31. By worshipping Him, Shiva became free from illusion, and by chanting this mantra in a solitary place, he attained the Lord." (Gopala Tapaniya Upanishad 1.1.31) "He alone is Vishnu" exactly, since Shiva is the direct representative of Vishnu. This is why we should not see any difference between the instructions of Shiva and Vishnu. Hare Krishna

Hare Krishna "The descriptions and hymns pertain to Sada Shiva and no one else. If ‘the Hymns were for Visnu’ (as you say) then why should Vishnu himself fail to understand Sada Shiva?" Yes, but the descriptions do not say that Shiva is the original Personality of Godhead. It is referring to Impersonal Brahman. "Note: Visnu through Indra’s energy took wide strides and formed the quarters. Yes, Rudra’s Mind only creates Visnu" This is imperfect, erroneous logic. It is like saying cats and dogs both have four legs, therefore cats must be dogs... "Note: It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra." This is about the impersonal brahman, which is irrelevant to the debate. "Yoga Vashista clearly states that it is One Rudra who becomes Krishna also" Interesting, is yoga vashishta part of the original vedas, or an upanishad or a purana? Can you please bring the quote you write about to this forum? Until then, we cannot continue Hare Krishna

"There are enough statement in the shastra to say he is supreme which you can not deny. " I accept Shiva as Supreme Lord of material manifestation. But you choose to reject the shastra that says Shiva was freed from ignorance by the grace of Krishna. You reject shastra that states that Shiva was under the influence of Krishna's illusory energy. You reject shastra that states that Krishna gives Shiva authority to rule his realm. You reject shastra where Lord Shiva says there is NO HIGHER FORM of WORSHIP than that of Krishna.

"Though i am a madhwa i equally pray shiva. Bcoz of guys like you, unity is missing. How stupid to compare vaishnavas with muslims. May god curse and punish you ( both vishnu and shiva ) to a road side begger. " Why have you brought up a debate about Vishnu and Shiva? There is no need. This debate is on advaita and dvaita.

"Suga rishi and sanathkumar are examples of people in illusion attaining advaitha moksha.Visistathvaithis have a different version of their history and dont accept these two as advaithis.But that doesnt change the fact that they were advaitha jnanis. God did not fall under influence.Only parts of god which is us fall under illusion.when we remove it we merge with god." That's two examples. And not from the age of kali. There are thousands and thousands of examples of devotees. Advaita moksha is not eternal. The only liberation that is eternal is that which consists of serving God eternally. The soul's eternal constitutional position is to serve God. Not that the soul's eternal position is to merge with God. And parts of God are eternally parts (souls) (they are indestructible, unchangeable etc)

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya "(U accuse me of putting spin on the legitimate acharya commentary that i quote, and you then yourself put a spin on Shiva's statements, claiming that he is 'acting as if he was once in ignorance'.) I simply do not understand his activities, but I know the supreme Brahman can not be under illusion of his own energy." The debate has gone on long enough, but you have basically indicated the reality through your final reply. Yes, you simply do not understand Shiva's activities, that's for sure. By your reply, though, you have shown that you do understand things. So when Lord Shiva says he was freed from ignorance, then Lord Shiva is saying he is not Supreme Brahman, since you just admitted than Supreme Brahman can never be under influence of ignorance. Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

"shiva need not send shankara to preach lies to defeat buddhism.All he needed to do was wish to destroy buddhism.Thats all.Were buddhists so powerful that shiva had to send somebody to preach deliberate lies?What you say is horrible than atheism.Please avoid such blasphemies." All i'm saying is the Vedas are full of devotees being constantly hailed as the ideal we are supposed to follow. I can't think of any famous figure from the Vedas, who has become God after falling to illusion. But again, God cannot ever fall under the influence of illusion - otherwise He is not God. That is the weakness of advaita.

Hare Krishna "Shankara also said to adore mother Lalitha and said that all three moorthies do pranaam to her feet.Now are you willing to accept that too?" From what I have heard, Shankara's mission as sent down by Lord Shiva, was to preach impersonalist philosophy, so obviously there are going to be things said that are not consistent with personal realisation of God. All I am saying is that Shankara says one should 'ALWAYS MEDITATE ON VISHNU' - so there is no time when one becomes Vishnu, u have to constantly pray to him i.e. become a devotee, a Vaishnava. "How will servents of god claim to be equal to god?I am no way equal to all those devotees you quoted like Naratha and arjuna,but they are examples for bhakthi yoga.They chose to remain devotees to show way to all of us to Bakthi yoga.We need acharyas for each yoga.For karma yoga we have king janaka,for bakthi yoga we have hanuman and naratha and for jnana yoga we have advaithin acharyas.Each tread in a different path to reach the same goal." Exactly, advaitin acharyas, of whom only Shankara is described in the Vedas. And even he says to become a devotee. And his mission is written in the Vedas, that he is sent by Lord Shiva in order to defeat Buddhism. "Marginal energy isnt marginal always.At nirguna bhramman stage it equals the lord.This is what shankara taught us." So in other words, God can be affected by illusion - therefore he is not omniscient, therefore the whole advaitin philosophy breaks down... Hare Krishna

Hare Krishna So why did Prabhupada not engage any of his godbrothers in preaching in the west? The fact is he tried to, but many were envious. Many are also not envious, and are very good devotees, but with our imperfect senses we can not judge. I'd rather keep with Prabhupada's organisation. After all he is founder acharya. One who is really Krishna Conscious is a follower of Prabhupada. And a follower of Prabhupada does not criticise his own organisation, ISKCON. He has the freedom, however, to choose not to associate with ISKCON if he feels more comfortable that way. Variety is necessary, but if the teachings of the others are even slightly inconsistent to Prabhupada, then we must avoid. "find a pure devotee" we are not pure devotees, how can we judge who is pure? At least if we are within ISKCON, the teachings of Prabhupada are being followed according to his instructions, his books, his lectures etc. Therefore even if we take shelter of someone who is not pure, he is still sincerely preaching Prabhupada's message. Hare Krishna

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya Re: Is this the first time you have had discussion with me? No. I have been posting many quotes about Krishna and Shiva in this thread under the name guest. Re: "Thank you, but you are still wrong trying to degrade his position here is what brahma says; SB 4.6.42: Lord Brahma said: My dear Lord Shiva, I know that you are the controller of the entire material manifestation, the combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, and the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation as well. I know you in that way. Please note And the supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation Contemplate on supreme Brahman there is nothing beyond that, he is one without a second, wise know him by different names. Do not try and explain this away by some thing else." Again, do I have to repeat? Shiva is described as the 'divine halo of the Supreme Brahman' - therefore Brahma addresses him in that way, for he knows that the source of Lord Shiva is the Supreme Brahman. Now, when Brahma says that Shiva is the divine halo of Krishna, he means that Shiva is the divine halo of Krishna. When Brahma says Shiva is like curd and Krishna is like milk, he means that Shiva comes form Krishna just as curd comes from milk. When Brahma says that Krishna transforms himself for the work of destruction to become Lord Shiva, Brahma means that Shiva is a transformation of Krishna, just as curd is a transformation of milk. Now, I don't deny that Shiva is the divine halo of Krishna. Yet you are denying Brahma's comments that Shiva comes from Krishna. It is you who are selectively accepting some Vedic quotes and rejecting others. Also, I am not degrading Shiva's position, I am describing it as it is. No-one, including Shiva devotees, will deny that Shiva-tattva is a mixture of spiritual and material energy. "I do not for a minute think otherwise but fact is he descend to this material world therefore he interacts with it." No he does not, everywhere the Lord goes is transcendental. When he appeared in Vrindavana, it is transcendental. The people he associate with are eternal associates from the spiritual world. Now, when he wants to administer the material world, he transforms into Shiva, as Brahma already explains. "These are lords energy and as such he can never be detach from it. He is known as ardhnarishvara. How can the lord be affected by his own energy? This is what prajapati says in this regard; SB 8.7.33: Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Umā, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities. He is beyond this material creation he can never be affected by his own energy." When i say Shiva engages with the illusory energy, I am in no way considering him to be lusty. Do not send wild accusations at me. I am simply describing Shiva's role. As Brahma explains, Shiva combines with Shakti, and through Maha-Vishnu's glance the material manifestation is created. This is not to say that Shiva is lusty, it is to say that Shiva's role is to create the material universes, not to create the spiritual world. "Now when he is self effulgent, parabrahman how can he be under illusion? Where there is light there is no darkness, have you ever heard of sun covered up by darkness?" Please read the quote carefully. Shiva is described as impersonal brahman, which is originally Prabrahman. In other words Shiva is the universal impersonal feature of the Lord, and He is originally (he originates from) Parabrahman (Krishna). "Does he say reject those other purans?" If one is serious about Spiritual self-realisation, and Lord Shiva says that something is in the mode of ignorance, does it not make sense to avoid that thing which is in ignorance? Srila Vyasadeva wrote those puranas for those who are in the mode of ignorance. If one wants to stay at that level, he can accept the conclusions of those puranas. Again, even those puranas make sense, when they are read in the light of the sattvic puranas. "I have no annoyance about anything, nor do I have any illusion about lord Shiva be under any illusion, he is self effulgence the question does not arise" So you accuse Lord Shiva of lying. "Since we are all eternal what to speak of lord shiva, this is a childish argument, at what point of time are you talking about? It is like saying Newton discovered law of gravity as if to say gravity did not exist before that." So now you accuse Narayana of lying. "Where and when does Krishna says this?" Krishna says so in the Gopala Tapaniya Upanishad. Are you going to accuse him of lying? "Do you agree to Lord Shiva's statement that he was freed from ignorance by praying to Krishna?) simple answer NO." So you think Lord Shiva is lying. "Yes, but don’t ever think that he cant act as if he is under the influence of ignorance, just an example, like when Ram cried when mother Sita was abducted." U accuse me of putting spin on the legitimate acharya commentary that i quote, and you then yourself put a spin on Shiva's statements, claiming that he is 'acting as if he was once in ignorance'. As for Rama, transcendental feelings of separation is not ignorance. And in any case, Rama never explicitly stated 'I am under the influence of ignorance'. In contrast, Lord Shiva states 'I prayed to Krishna to become free from ignorance'. That is why Lord Shiva is self-effulgent, because he was freed from ignorance. But you still claim that Lord Shiva is not telling the truth when he says that 'he prayed to Krishna to become free from ignorance'. Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

Hare Krishna i'm not going to argue on the philosophy, because guest is already addressing that. I would like to show some interesting things which should make those folowing impersonalist philosophy think again. 1) Shankaracarya in Baja-Govindam says "Adore Govinda, O fool, When the appointed time (for departure) comes, the repetition of grammatical rules will not indeed save you" - so one must adore the Lord... "Repeated birth, repeated death and repeated lying in mother's womb - this transmigratory process is extensive and difficult to cross; save me, O destroyer of Mura (Krsna), through your grace." - only by the grace of God doe we get released from samsara "the form of the lord of Lakshmi ( Vishnu) should be always meditated on;" - ALWAYS meditated on. Not that there comes a point when one is equal to Vishnu. "Being devoted completely to the lotus-feet of the Master" - exactly, devotion, bhakti-yoga. 2) All the most revered and distinguished figures from the Vedas are eternal servants of God. They never claim to be equal to God. Do you ever hear Narada Muni claiming to be equal to Narayana? Do you ever hear Hanuman claiming to be equal to Rama? Does Arjuna after hearing Bhagavad Gita tell Krishna that he is now one with him, equal to him? Or are you impersonalists saying that Arjuna and Hanuman and Narada Muni are not fully self-realised? Please ponder on those points, because it is illogical to think that the marginal energy (Jiva) can ever become equal to the Potent (Purusha). Hare Krishna

Hare Krishna "So if we see shiva worshiping vishnu in vishnu puran we can take it as shiva showing how to worship vishnu to vishnu bhakts." This is called mental speculation - where is the shastric evidence that this is what Shiva means when he worships Vishnu? "If shiva gets defeated by vishnu in a puran,it is like at times mother and father playing before children" This is called mental speculation - where is the shastric evidence that this is what is happening? "many puranas of ours have been reauthored by overzealous poets" There is nothing wrong with the puranas. More like the interpretation of the puranas have been poisoned by mental speculation... Hare Krishna

Hare Krishna "--false... this was said to some disciples, about some envious godbrothers, for well know reasons. This instruction is updated by his statements near his departure" prabhupada, out of compassion and knwoledge of the consequences, certainly placed limits on his disciples association with other non-iskcon vaishnava movements. And today we can see why he placed those limits. it's a mess to say the least... "iskcon means society of krsna consciousness... who is krsna conscious is iskcon, who's not krsna conscious is iskcon even if he belongs to iskcon organization" ISKCON means the society to propagate Krishna Consciousness. Yes not all are totally Krishna Conscious, but together they are more effective than thousands of conflicting movements. "spiritual world is full of variety.. variety does not hurt. If you like unity start to search collaboration between vaishnavas instead of sectarian war " Yes, but we are in the material world. Preaching cannot be effective without unity. One cannot say 'Everything goes'. Otherwise Krishna Consciousness will become like modern day Hinduism - full of competing movements... Collaboration is going ahead. Many ISKCON devotees are in influential positions in the World Vaishnava association. All I am saying is one must have a sense of unity without abandoning the society that is most associated with the beloved acharya Prabhupada. Hare Krishna

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya "Do you blame me, it is difficult to keep up with so many guests, without any Id, and it is hard to tell who one is debating with" There is no question of blame. Before I was posting as guest. I am sorry, I had no idea the discussion would go so far. So now I have registered. "I am afraid you have cleared up nothing, all this gradation is your speculation. Your statement marginal energy- souls including Shiva, means Shiva is a jiva. That is blasphemy" I apologise, I made a mistake, Shiva has his own tattva. Above marginal, but below spiritual. "You say Krishna is spiritual but does not engage in illusory energy, so tell me how does he come to earth?" The Lord always remains transcendental. He says fools deride me and think I descend in a human form. "Lord Shiva spiritual but engages with illusory energy, but of course he is Maya pati, what does this all prove?" He engages and unites with shakti (Durga/Parvati etc). Therefore he engages with illusory energy. Also Shiva had to pray to Krishna to become free from illusion, as confirmed by the Upanishads. Which by the way you still choose not to respond to. "prajapati are prying to lord Shiva, why do you speculate and try put a spin on it to conform with your position?" Once again you ask me to respond for the fourth time to your prajapati quote. As i have said countless times, Shiva is not described in that quote as the only original person. "Or when Lord Brahma prays to Lord Shiva as the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation" Again, I have responded to this already. Brahma prays to Lord Shiva, who is the Supreme Brahman transformed for the work of destruction. There is no spin, since Brahma himself confirms this in Brahma Samhita. "Whoever is Lord Hari, He Himself is Lord Shiva indeed. Any human being mistake both the lord to be different, he/she surely go to hell!" We are all constitutive of the same elements (therefore non-different) as the Lord (sat-cit-ananda). That does not mean we are God. "some of you cry foul" So Lord Shiva cries foul when he says the Shiva Purana and Linga Purana is in the mode of ignorance? I am crying foul simply for following his instructions? "people make their own speculated judgment to suit their position" As I have said, Shiva himself states which puranas are in ignorance - where is the speculation? It is based on Lord Shiva's own shastric statements. And once again, I receive no response to my real questions about Lord Shiva's statements. We are back to square one. If you have so much confidence in your argument, please answer those questions, like I have answered yours. Just because my answers do not satisfy you does not mean you should avoid answering any of mine. At least I have addressed your objections. I think your real annoyance is with the fact that there can be no other meaning to Lord Shiva saying he had to pray to Krishna to become free from ignorance than exactly what he says. There can be no other meaning when it says Narayana existed before Siva and Brahma. There can be no other meaning when Krishna says Shiva is covered by my illusory energy. There can be no other meaning when Shiva says to Parvati that the highest form of worship is that of Krishna. There can be no other meaning. Yet no where have you managed to bring up anything where Krishna is saying that he was ever under the influence of illusion or ignorance. Yet Lord Shiva admits that before praying to Lord Krsna he was under ignorance. Now, for the umpteenth time please answer my question: Do you agree to Lord Shiva's statement that he was freed from ignorance by praying to Krishna? And do you agree that the Supreme Lord could never have been under the influence of ignorance? I suspect I will still get many other comments, without getting a simple yes or no answer from you... Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

prabhupada specifically wanted disciples not to associate with other movements outside iskcon, unless the specifically had some practical benefit e.g. getting help from Gaudiya Matha for accomodation when devotees were new to India. - what did so many do after Prabhupada's departure lila? they disobeyed him and left ISKCON... ...now if you have problem with ISKCON then fine, ...but ISKCON is the best way to promote and preach Krishna Consciousness in the world, of that there is no doubt...if everybody were independent of ISKCON, there would be no limit to the different movements which may result...and all the while people will not know what is Krishna Consciousness ...they will think KC is a sect with millions of separate sects...disunity... basically, if u don't like iskcon and choose not to engage with them then fine, but stop criticising and thus damaging the preaching mission to fulfil Caitanya's prophecy... ...rememeber the name of Krishna has to be chanted in every town and village...we must make that a reality...

I was given a pamphlet by the Christian Union stating that the reason God lets us suffer is because he has an enemy called Satan. God is all pwerful, why doesn't he destroy Satan? Because he is waiting for the 'appointed time' And in the meanwhile, what to do? Grin and bear it... how illogical? Can any Christian come up with a better explanation?

Ganeshprasad, I am the one you were debating with about Shiva and Krsna. This is the first post I have submitted in this thread, so don't confuse... And to clear up: Vishnu Tattva - Krishna and avatars of Vishnu (spiritual, does not engage in illusory energy) Shiva Tattva - Shiva (spiritual, but engages with illusory energy or shakti) Jiva Tattva - souls (spiritual, but covered by illusory energy) Prakrti - Material Energy (illusory energy)

the answer is within, but is covered by material energy. In order to break free, we must engage in devotional service to God. One thing is for sure, we cannot become part of God, as in become equal to God, for that would mean that God can be affected by illusion. It is illogical. God does have a formless aspect, but the soul's nature is to be blissful. God is a personality as confirmed by the word bhagavan = possessor of all opulences. The possessor is a personality and we have an eternal relationship with him. That relationship will give us bliss alongside eternity and knowledge. The formless aspect only gives us eternity and knowledge. There is no soul to relate with, therefore we are unable to experience unlimited bliss in the formless stage. This is why the formless aspect is not the ultimate goal.