Ganeshprasad

Pranam Arjuna haridas

Very pleasing to read

Jai Shiv Shankar

Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Avinash

I have read that Ravan kept death as captive. Who was this death? Is it Yamraj (lord of death) or somebody else?

No not captured but assumed his victory.

All the answers you seek are in utarkand in Valmiki Ramayan as well as in Tulsidas Ramchritra Manas

Also your question on if Ravan was born with ten heads (yes) is also addressed

Ravan having gained boon from Brahm ji, went in all direction to fight, defeated devas and danavas.But was also defeated by some, but that is another story.

To cut the story short (Utarkand sarg 22) he encountered Yama the god of death there ensued a fierce fight first with his ganas and later with Yama. Ready to use Yama dand Lord Brahma intervened and thus respecting Lord Brahma, Yamadev Disappeared from the scene, Ravan assumed his victory. There is similar victory with Surya as well. I can recall having seen on Film or read somewhere that Ravan had captured Sanidev but at the moment I cant be sure.

Maghnath Ravanas son defeated Indra thus his name indrajit.

I hope this helps

Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam

i stand corrected here is from Valmiki Ramayan From The Valmiki Ramayana, Uttara kanda, Chapter two

Translated by Sri Hari Prasad Shastri

At the birth of this child, his paternal grandfather was filled with joy, and Poulastya, beholding him, bethought himself how he might make himself happy. "He shall become the ‘Guardian of Wealth' he said in his delight, which was shared by all the Sages, and he gave him a name, saying:

"Since the child resembles Vishravas, he shall be known as Vaishravana!"

Thereafter Vaishravana, retiring to pastoral solitudes, grew up to resemble the mighty Anala (Agni) who is invoked at the time of sacrifice and, while he sojourned in that retreat, the thought came to that magnanimous one, ‘I will pursue my supreme duty; the path of duty is the highest path’.

For a thousand years he gave himself up to asceticism in the great forest and practising severe austerities, performed heavy penances, whereupon the mighty Brahma, accompanied by the hosts of the gods and their leaders, came to the hermitage and said to him:

"I am highly gratified with thine accomplishments, O devoted son, now choose a boon! May prosperity attend thee; thou dost merit a favour , O Sage!"

Then Vaishravana answered the Grandsire of the world (Brahma), who stood near and said:

"O Blessed One, I desire to be the saviour and protector of the world!"

In the satisfaction of his soul, Brahma, who was accompanied by the Celestial Host, joyfully answered:

"So be it! It is my desire to create four Guardians of the Worlds. Now there shall be the region of the Yama, the region of Indra, the region of Varuna and the one sought by thee. Go, O Virtuous Ascetic, and reign over the dominion of wealth! With Shakra, Varuna the lord of the waters, and Yama (lord of death), thou shalt be the fourth. Receive as thy vehicle this chariot named Pushpaka, which is as bright as the sun, and be equal to the gods. Be happy. We shall now return from whence we came, having accomplished that which we had to do by conferring this double gift, O Dear Son!"

With these words, Brahma withdrew to the region of the gods and when the Celestial Hosts, with the Grandsire at their head, had gone to the heavenly region, Vaishravana, having become the Lord of Wealth, humbly addressed his sire with joined palms and said:

"O Blessed One, I have received a rare boon from the Grandsire of the World, but the divine Prajapati (Brahma) has not assigned me a dwelling place. Do thou therefore counsel me, O Blessed One, O Lord, as to where an agreeable retreat may be found where no suffering comes to any living being."

At these words of his son, Vaishravana, the foremost of the ascetics answered saying:

"Hear, O most virtuous of men! On the shores of the ocean, in the south there is a mountain named Trikuta. On its lofty summit, which as great as the capital of the mighty Indra, the Ravishing city of Lanka was constructed by Vishvakarma for the Rakshasas and it resembles Amravati (capital city of Indra, the king of heaven). Do thou dwell in Lanka and be happy! Do not hesitate! With its moats, golden walls, engines of war and the weapons with which it is filled, with its gold and emerald archways, that city is a marvel! The Rakshasas left it formerly in fear of Vishnu and it is deserted, all the demons having gone to the nethermost region. Now Lanka is empty and has no protector. Go and inhabit it , my Son, and be happy! No harm will visit thee there."

Hearing these words of his sire, the virtuous Vaishravana went to dwell in Lanka on the summit of the mountain, and soon, under his rule, it was filled with thousands of delighted Nairritas disporting themselves.

That righteous King of the Nairritas, the blessed Sage Vaishravana, dwelt in Lanka, that city surrounded by the sea and, from time to time, the saintly Lord of Wealth, in the Pushpaka Chariot, went to visit his father and mother. Hymned by the hosts of the gods and Gandharvas and entertained by the dances of the Apsaras (beautiful women), that Guardian of Wealth, radiating glory like unto the sun, went to visit his sire.

Jai Shree Krishna

It was the residence for the treasury secretary, the demigod in charge of wealth. Ill consult my version of ramayana, which has proven to be quite accurate, even though it is story-telling and not dogmatic.

Pranam

There is nothing wrong with your memory

From what i can recollect also, it was a gift from Lord shiva to Kubera, Ravan seized from him along with Puspak viman.

Jai Shree Krishna

I dont compare Prahlada to a demon, His mother was Diti, and she is the matriarch of a whole race of folks called asuras. The asura class has many personalities that had no symptoms of being demons, like the sons of Hiranyakasipu and one of the sons of Ravana who sided with Rama and was instrumental in the victory at Lanka of the Waves. Without the son of Ravana, the mystic powers of his great general could not be broken, because only daityas could break the invisibility mysticism.

 

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

Pranam

I do not know of any son of Ravan that sided with Ram, i could be wrong though.

But i know his brother Vibhisan came over to Ram side.

Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh

The United States is based on the monotheistic principle that all rights are God given as is clear in the Declaration of Independence. Thus monotheism is the heritage of this country and what is done in India not necessarily need be done in the US.

I quote this rather long passage not to gain entry in to senate I really do not care either way.

Hinduism is a monotheistic religion with one God (Brahman) assuming many forms and names. Brahman, as Nirguna, has no attributes (is formless and unmanifested), whereas as Saguna (or Iswara) is manifested and with attributes. People use many different names for God. Consider for example the following hymns from Rig Veda.

"They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, and he is heavenly nobly-winged Garutman.

To what is One, sages give many a title they call it Agni, Yama, Matarisvan." RV (Book 1, Hymn 164.46)

"He in his might surveyed the floods containing productive force and generating Worship.

He is the God, and none beside him. What God shall we adore with our oblation?" RV (Book 10, Hymn 121.8)

Thus various forms (names and perceptions) symbolizing Brahman reflect different visions according to many sages and seers. Note that, like any particular prophet, each sage advances his own concept of God which seems unique (in name and form / image) and may be classed as monomorphic (one view). This concept of divine -- monotheistic and monomorphic -- is usually accepted and followed by the adherents of that particular sage. This is just like any monotheistic religion after a certain prophet. But in Hinduism, this situation is further augmented due to accumulated visions of God from many sages -- each sage's vision being separately monotheistic and monomorphic -- resulting in monotheism with a polymorphic view where one God is perceived in many different ways. Note that this is not polytheism, because God is still one, even though He is portrayed differently according to different people (sages, etc.) and situations.

Hinduism is also not henotheistic, where people believe in one god but are not concerned if he is the only god. Note that Brahman is one even though He has many names. For henotheism, there should exist a parallel (or competing) deity against Brahman but such is not the case. In addition, even the different Avtars (reincarnations) are not considered as independent of Iswara.

Hinduism is not pantheistic either, since there is no direct identification of God with universe. Note, God and universe (belonging to the Absolute or Reality -- which also consists of souls) are considered as distinct from each other in Hindu religio-philosophy.

Furthermore, polymorphically speaking, God may be worshipped, for example, by a farmer as Varuna (meaning the lord of water) and by a carpenter as Vishvakarma (meaning architect of the world). Since water -- potential boon from Varuna -- is important in agriculture for bringing good harvest etc., the farmer easily, conveniently and even inadvertently is drawn towards the deity known as Varuna. Meanwhile, the carpenter identifies himself professionally more closely with Vishvakarma (the Constructor). People thus have a tendency to assign and accept various functional or phenomenal labels for God, and perceive, worship, and meditate on Him accordingly. In spite of having different names, Brahman (God) still remains one and the Hinduism monotheistic. Note also that worshipping Varuna and Vishvakarma just amounts to worshipping God in two different aspects of water and construction, respectively. In reality, worship of either Varuna or Vishvakarma or both of them together still amounts to -- including the potential benefits -- the worship of one Brahman. The Real, possessing various attributes (i.e. God as Varuna or as Vishvakarma), should not be seen as accumulating them mathematically. Thus, one (as Varuna) + one (as Vishvakarma) is not to be construed as two, but still One (God).

Depending on the basic attributes, God (Hari or Savior) is called Om -- the creator (Omniscient, Brahma, the chaturmukh); Tat -- the preserver / master (Omnipotent, Vishnu, the chaturbhuj); and Sat -- the destroyer (Rudra or Shiva -- good and righteous; RV: Book 5, Hymn 44.2).

Furthermore, in the earthly regions, Iswara (and His power) may manifest as Agni; in the mid-air, as Indra; and in the heavens, as Savitar. Note that the personality or symbol used as a deity in meditation or worship is mainly for spiritual significance and to reflect the real power (God) behind it. Physical and material aspects of the symbol used in worship are less important.

True bhakti (devotion) and the type (method) of worship depend on a person's nature and temperament. Moreover, even if the object of adoration remains the same, there may be several ways to approach it. In addition, Brahman as Nirguna (unmanifested) is simply believed in. The direct worship of Nirguna Brahman is not possible, because it is not known (as Nirguna) and therefore can not be worshipped. The believer therefore simply recognizes the entire creation as a reflection of God and acts accordingly (Gita: Ch 12).

In the case of Saguna Brahman, there are two types of worship -- one is of a personal God as the Immanent, and the other by using symbols. In case of the Immanent, worship usually occurs in the form of pure meditation and at the spiritual level. On the other hand, when a worshipper views God as being external to him, then the worship is symbolic. Here, symbols (objects and deities etc.) used are generally prakrit (comprising of prakrti / nature and therefore involving three modes or gunas -- sattva, rajas, and tamas). Note that the worshipper in this case needs to be careful as to what exactly the object of adoration (such as the deity) and the method of worship (yajna etc.) stand for, because that will determine the outcome (fruits) of such worship.

Object of meditation (worship) should be beyond or above the Law of Karma. It should not become part of the sansara (world) -- as a soul or the constituent matter -- and be not existing at times in the mode of darkness or ignorance (Tamas). Note that only Brahman is above and beyond Karma, is changeless, and meets these conditions (Gita: Ch. 5 - V. 29). On the other hand, if the meditation (worship) is intended towards a secondary figure (such as a guru or a deity) who is subject to the Law of Karma, the results from such effort will also be secondary (Gita: Ch. 9 - V. 25). The meditation (worship) symbols and methods should be therefore carefully selected.

Note also that the religious offerings and gifts, though important, are voluntary and motivated by faith and love. Moreover, worships and rituals should not be performed miserly and with a desire for vainglory (RV: Book 7 - Hymn 32.9; Gita: Ch. 9 - V. 26, Ch. 16 - V. 17, Ch. 17 - V. 13).

Ref.: http://www.geocities.com/lamberdar/brahman.html

Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh

All well and good for you but Prabhupada didn't teach approaching Krsna through Ganesh. He taught approaching Krsna directly through His name as given by Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

Caitanya Mahaprabhu taught monotheism. Mahaprabhu is the universal guru. That's that for me. I have no need to try and convince you of anything.

I see true to your ever changing stance the debate has moved on. First the objection was about Hindus being sectarian then devas worship and now declaration on independence. it is the nature of this material world for ever changing.

All and good for you also may be it the will of the lord that you should approach him directly but learning that is not enough the hard part is to realize what we have learnt, and I don’t say this with any malice.

As for us who come from Vedic tradition we will continue as best possible to keep that tradition going. It would be an insult to our ancestor who despite many difficulties kept the dharma going.

You may not have the fortune of Ganesh worship but even Mahaprabhu to whom the Lord Jaganath was so dear, had on the occasion of snanyatra opportunity to witness the most wonderful past time of dressing of the deities as Lord Ganesh. So we can try hard as we do but the Vedic past will remind us always of it glories, the devas are integral part of this wonderful dharma.

Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh

It is quite funny when we cant defend our sectarian views we then try deflect the whole issue.

The issue is about hindu priest and prayers in the senate, so what is it got anything to do with polytheism or monotheism

Further more if we read carefully no where Shree Krishna has condemned Devas worship.

Vedic Heritage

Prayers are an integral part of Life.

Prayers, whenever offered in mass or as an Individual, make us calm and peaceful. Prayers are the simple media of expression of our faith and our surrendering to the Supreme Power. By offering prayers we ask for the soothing of sorrows and distress .By offering prayers, we ask for blessings to lead a moralistic, peaceful and meaningful life. Offering prayers also helps us to cleanse our minds and concentrate. They help us to see the God within our own heart creating insight to the Self

”Whenever we post a letter, we believe that it will reach the right person at its destination”. Likewise, it happens with our prayers.

Certain prayers are Universal. These prayers have no boundaries of religion, age or sex. They are very meaningful and Divine and have been in existence for thousands of years.

Traditionally, they are passed down from generation to generation, which conserves their purity.

Vedic prayers have direct appeal to the heart. Vedas are the oldest scriptures in the world and the mother of all scriptures. Vedas are four in number. They are –

1.Rig Veda.

2.Yajur Veda.

3.Sama Veda.

4.Atharva Veda.

In India, the first prayer is always offered to the God Ganapati or Ganesha(Elephant headed God). Ganesha is the God who helps us to remove obstacles from our lives. Ganesha is always remembered at the beginning of any ceremony or ritual. He is asked to bless the aim and function and protect us.

The traditional bowing down to Ganesha is by chanting the following

// OM GAM GANAPATAYE NAMAH //

Meaning,

Oh, Primal Supreme Power who is the good omen, we bow down to you.

Universal Prayers:

//OM BHADRAM KARNE BHIH SHRUNUYAAMA DEVAAH /

BHADRAM PASHYEMAAKSHABHIR YAJATRAAHA /

STHIRAIRANGAI STUSHTUVAAGUM SASTANOOBHIH

VYASHEMA DEVAHITAM YADAAYUH /

SVASTI NA INDRO VRIDDHASHRAVAAH

SWASTI NAH POOSHA VISHWA VEDAAH /

SWASTI NASTAARKSHYO ARISHTANEMIH

SWASTI NO BRIHASPATIR DADHAATU

OM PEACE / OM PEACE / OM PEACE //

Meaning,

May we hear only well through our ears.

May we see only well through our eyes.

May we who sing praise of you live our whole allotted span of life with perfect health and vigor.

May Indra who is praised by the devotees safeguard our existence and well being.

May the wise Pooshan grant us safety.

May Garuda and Brihaspati grant us well being.

I believe following is the prayer the priest was saying.

Asatoma Sat Gamaya Tamasoma Jyotir Gamaya Mrityorma Anritam Gamaya.

Lead me from the unreal to the Real Lead me from the darkness to the Light

Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh

The height of ignorance, is there a limit to it. It is true a sectarian can not see, he is blind by its own dogma, refuses to see anyone else has any rights. I mean hello who did Gautam Budhha meditate and prayed to? Has ShankrAcharya given us any prayer I wonder. Chetnaya Mahaprabhu took sanyas from so called mayavad.

Vedic chants and prayers are not sectarian, there are no defined boundaries in them.

What does Krishna say

devan bhavayatanena

te deva bhavayantu vah

parasparam bhavayantah

sreyah param avapsyatha

Nourish the Devas with Yajna, and the Devas will nourish you. Thus nourishing one another you shall attain the Supreme goal. (3.11)

jnana-yajnena capy anye

yajanto mam upasate

ekatvena prthaktvena

bahudha visvato-mukham

Others, who are engaged in the cultivation of knowledge, worship the Supreme Lord as the one without a second, diverse in many, and in the universal form. (9.15)

yajante sattvika devan

yaksa-raksamsi rajasah

pretan bhuta-ganams canye

yajante tamasa janah

Men in the mode of goodness worship the devas; those in the mode of passion worship the demons; and those in the mode of ignorance worship ghosts and spirits. (17.4)

Those who are in ignorance makes foolish judgement on devas and various Vedic practice.

Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh

Was this 'hindu" a Vaisnava? if not who cares for his prayer anyway, just because it's called Hindu? Not enough to rock my boat.

I do care, do you have problem with that? What’s wrong with his prayer does he not have rights? Sorry I forgot Shree Ganesh does not exist according to you.

Reminds me of reading an account from a brahmana who headed a certain Hindu temple in Calcutta. When he first saw Mother Theresa come to his neighborhood to serve the poor and destitute he tells of how he threw rocks at her. He later can to accept her saintly qualities.

 

Sectarianists are all the same no matter what costume they are wearing.

Why don’t you check your own sectarian traits in your own statement, are you above being sectarianism? Stop trying to make as if the majority Vaisnavas do not identify them self as Hindu. Who care if some newbie’s do not think they are following Hindu Dharma

Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh

Pranam

yes it is very nice poem.

A Hindi poet has said:

 

duḥkha se saba hari bhaje

sukha se bhaje koī

sukha se agar hari bhaje

duḥkha kāthāń se haya

Meaning

When in distress everyone prays to Hari

When in comfort only some do

If in comfort, praying to Hari

Distress, how could it come.

When one is distressed he goes to the church or temple to worship the Lord, but when opulent he forgets the Lord. Therefore, punishment by the Lord through material nature is necessary in human society, for without it men forget the supremacy of the Lord due to their dull, blunt intelligence.

 

(Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 9.10.14, purport)

Yes Bhagvan Krishna says four types of man worship me, one of them being in distress.

Happiness and distress day and night heat and cold friends and foe such is the nature of this world of duality. I can not believe, the lord, in order to establish supremacy would punish, such an act only help to make one even more rebellious.(even if it were true why would he punish some one by calling his various different names.)

In this material world, karma takes care of our dealings, it spares none.

As long as we have desires and hate we will for ever remain in this karmic cycle so if there is an offence then it is our desires we need to check.

iccha-dvesa-samutthena

dvandva-mohena bharata

sarva-bhutani sammoham

sarge yanti parantapa

O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate. bg7.27

Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh

As I have asked before and I ask again who is being offended?

Bhagvan Krishna clearly says here bg5.15

nadatte kasyacit papam

na caiva sukrtam vibhuh

ajnanenavrtam jnanam

tena muhyanti cantata

Nor does the Supreme Spirit assume anyone's sinful or pious activities. Embodied beings, however, are bewildered because of the ignorance which covers their real knowledge.

Bhagvan is beyond the three gunas he can never be offended, what different does it make as to what name we call him, all we need to do is cry and the parents would jump to help,why would the Karuna sagar, the ocean of mercy, take our offence if it were an offence?

The Great rishi Valmilki, at the time named Ratnakar, could not pronounce Rama,so chanted backwards MA-RA. As the story goes, he gets absorbed in Samadhi, stays in one spot for a long time and ants build hill around him...being totally absorbed in bliss. When the sages return, they ask him to come out - He comes out fully enlightened (jivanmukti) and they give him his new name Valmilki from 'Valmika' meaning an ant-hill. Valmilki , the author of the Ramayana.

Jai Shree Ram

Jai Shive Shambhu

Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh

We need to understand an offence before we devise a defence. As presented the offence no 2 is nothing more then scare tactic, the padma puran itself would fall foul of the offence, if it were true, as presented by some. All you need to read is the Shiv Gita.

here is the Sanskrit original:

sivasya sri-visnor ya iha guna-namadi-sakalam

dhiya bhinnam pasyet sa khalu hari-namahita-karah

One who sees the difference between the names and qualities of Lord Shiva and names and qualities of Lord Vishnu is an antagonist of hari-nama"

Sri Bhagvat puran would confirms this, as well as Lord Krishna unequivocally declares of Rudra I am Shankar so it would be prudent as a defence not to offend either of them.

Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh

Pranam Guruvani

If the western Vaishnavas called themselves Hindus the Hindus would object to that.

If the western Vaishnvas say that they are not Hindus the Hindus object to that.

 

So, there is no way that the western Vaishnavas can satisfy the Hindus, so what is the use in trying?

Anyone on the path of dharma is a Hindu, Vasudev kutumbak. Those who may object, and I do not know of any, are narrow minded who does not follow dharma.

Do all Vaishnavas have to be Hindus?

Vaisnava never had any problem clasified as Hindus , it seems the problem have only surfaced in recent times.

Does a Vaishnava have to classify himself in one big lump with the KAli worshipers and the Mayavadis?

Such a problem never was there, emphasis has always been on following dharma and to seek the truth.

Have you got any problems with gopies?

Mayavadis what is it? Did not Sri Chetanya Maha Prabhu take sanyas from so called mayavadi.

Western Vaishnavas aren't in the big lump you call Hinduism.

 

That is your prerogative.

All the western Vaishnavas follow the great acharyas of India and the Indian scriptures, but the Hindus get all bent out of shape because the western Vaishnavas don't accept one big all-encompassing designation with all the polytheists in India.

That is fine you follow what you prefer but don’t make judgement and abuse those who seek the lord different from you. Each to them self.

Why should Vaishnavism be lumped into a group with Kali worshipers, Shaivas and Mayavadis?

You are creating your on phantoms, creating division where there is none, all these are Vedic practice. Do you have problem with gopies, the prajapatis, Chetanya maha Prabhu I can go on if you like.

Some modern thinkers FROM INDIA have objected that that.

That idea was NOT invented by western Vaishnavas, but became a popular theme with many Indians during Gandhi's independence movement.

I have no idea what this is.

Jai Shree Krishna

Haribol. I, for one, am always very enlivened by the stories from the great epics and histories about the great heroes. I realize that many of my peers dont care to hear of the bhaktas of Lord Subramuniyam, but I am not one of them. I dont agree with some who have placed the demoniac god versus the devil, a perversion of the teachings of Lord Jesus Christ, into their vaisnava culture. For instance, I have an appreciation for the likes of Sri Duryodhana and Sri Ravanasura than some may not even care to hear about. The regret showed by duryodhana over the anti-ksatriya behavior of the son of Drona is commendable. There is also the fact that Sri Duryodhana was a very intimate friend of Lord Balarama, so if he is hated like the devil, that is wrongful thinking. Ravanasura is the person who has descended from the spiritual strata to engage in the rasa of chivalry with Lord Rama, so I praise their relationship as truely transcendental, free from the good and evil duality of the materialistic thinker.

 

All this appreciation is due to the causeless gift given to me by Srila Prabhupada, who taught me to be liberal minded in all matters. He never expected his disciple to be brainless robotsa incapable of expressing themselves, giving pleasure to others and allowing for further instruction from others as well. This is why he tried to create a diverse society that had the unity of harinama samkirtana.

 

Anyway, I am never opposed to respectful persons who may hold different views. I may have a low tolerance with those who try to tell me Im god but forgot, because God never forgets, as Krsna fully confirms in the gita. I worship Lord Ganesha because he will never make another mistake, and I will try my best to follow in the divine Scribe's footsteps.

 

Hare krsna, yog kriya, ys, mahaksadasa

 

 

haribol

Jai Ganesh

Pranam Mahak ji

Simply wonderful it is very uplifting thank you.

May Sri Ganesh remove all the obstacles of everyone on the path of spiritual journey.

Vakratunda Mahakaaya

Suryakoti Samaprabha

Nirvighnam Kuru Mey Deva

Sarva Kaaryeshu Sarvada

Meaning:The Lord with the curved trunk and a mighty body, who has the luster of a million suns, I pray to thee Oh Lord, to remove the obstacles from all the actions I intend to perform.

Om Gam Ganapatye Namaha,

Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh

Jai Ganesh Jai Ganesh Deva Mata Jena Parvati ne Pita Shanker Deva

Listen when the homosex crowd in Australia put on a hindu themed homosex festival a few years back and distributed pictures of Ganesha depicted in an obscene way (you may remember) I joined the hindus in protests by writing letters of protest and signing petions circulated on hindu forums. And this despite the fact that I am not personally convinced of the existence (or non-existence) of Ganesh. I support the right of hindus to be hindu all they like as freedom of thought and belief is a fundemental right given to every jiva by the Supreme Lord and must be protected.

.

The existence of Ganesh in question well well well what next?

It is one thing not wanting to worship other devas, although worship of Sri Ganesh, is well recognised Vedic practice, even many Vaisnavas observe it.

Jaganath and Baladev on snanyatra day will be depicted and dressed as Ganesh.

I wonder what Shree Chetanya Maha Prabhu think of your statement?

Sri Vyasdev narrated and Sri Ganesh scribed the Vedic literature, your statement doubts the very foundation of your belief in sanatan Dharma.

And yes me including all my family member actively fought to keep the Manor open funny it was also fought under the Hindu banner.

Jai Shree Krishna

It appears that in India when somebody is born into a family they go through their whole life stuck with the family deity and tradition. No matter which god your family worships that god is supreme and no amount of proper shastric evidence will ever change their mind.

 

That is why Hindus can never really be objective about the Vedic siddhanta because they are programmed and indoctrinated into the family tradition and the family god. Out of sentiment and family loyalty they go through their whole life with blinders on simply denying anything except what they learned in their family tradition.

 

Every Hindu thinks his family god is the supreme God.

Unfortunately, they all can't be right.

 

They can't be objective because of sentiment and family ties.

 

Here in the west, we get the opportunity to look at the Vedic siddhanta objectively with out so much of this blind devotion to the family deity or the village deity.

 

So, we make our judgements without all this pressure from family tradition and family religion.

Jai Ganesh

Pranam

I rarely post on this forum because although, supposedly this is a Hindu site unfortunately it is mainly run and participated by Iskcon followers and their off shoot, so instead I observe from distance the occasional some good post but unfortunately it is mainly tearing each other apart trying to make some cheap points.

I had many times stopped my urge to respond to some ridicules accusation and dame right abuse on Hindus, the cradle of Vedic civilisation.

The general undercurrent from most and Guruvani in particular has made some gross attacks not only on Hindus but Lord Shiva and their devotees not even spared Lord Krishna, I mean marrying a Gorilla. Hello where was your objective study of Vedic story never mind the siddhanta?

I am sorry I do not wish to be personal but when you ridicule the age old tradition of sadhus, performing their sadhna doing great tapas, not for faint hearted I may add, some thing a western observer may find a weird practice and it is understandable, but we Hindus hold them in high regards.

Unfortunately you betray your ignorance of Shastra and Bhagvatam in particular for if you had given a little thought, the very narrator of the purana goes naked, the great Sukhdev Go swami.

I really do not need to defend Hindus practice of worship the objectivity and moral upbringing one may easily find faults and there are many but we have to learn to look in to the mirror.

Jai Shree Krishna

Namaskar

Not done. You have made a lot of noise about HKs shoving and forcing their way particularly on Hindus or abusing them but not provided a single instance of the same, which is a completely unacceptable methodology in a discussion. As for mentality and undercurrent, such accusations are easy to make since apparently no evidence is required for the same and the other person is guilty as charged, is that not so.

Well I take everything back and I am even sorry to have brought it up without any evidence.

But I will relate one particular game or play, the payers of Bhaktivedanta players regularly enacted, for the pleasure of us Hindus on MAHA SHIVRATRI DAY (which I believe is next Friday) the drama of lord Shiva running in fright from a demon, Is this how we honur Lord Shiva on the maha Sivratri day?

And you call him greatest of Vishnu Bhakta.

On the contrary even in your translation it says that those who worship other devatas are those who are carried away by material desires (which is borne from one's own nature as 3.33, 17.2-4 etc. say) and they think that the fruits are given by the respective devataas when they are given by Vishnu alone as 7.22 says).

You are missing the point I am trying to make here. Devas worship is not condemned at all nor the Devas are at fault for being worship, even Lord Krishna is worshiped to enter in to heavenly planet it is this effort that is being condemned. Check 9.20/21

I have not omitted them, just that these do not seem to be so direct ways of worshipping Krishna though actually they are. The worship of devas is recommended in sruti as well, but that is to be done as a sacrifice to Vishnu. There are many sruti/smriti references that yajna refers to Vishnu (e.g. shatpatha brahmana) as well as stated in Bhagavad-Gita e.g. 9.16, and as 9.24 says that those who do not recognize this fact fall down. Thus the verses 3.9-13 refer to offering the yajna refer to knowing Vishnu to be the actual receiver and deliverer of fruits of these.

Well thanks, you see my point is not what the result of Deva worship brings, the fact that it is a legitimate Vedic practice and not to be laughed at or dismissed just because you have no use of it.

which are temporary places of birth and death and not liberated platforms (8.16) while only attaining to Vishnu's abode means liberation (8.20-21)

This is your sweet opinion only which a brahman worshiper would not accept.

saknotihaiva yah sodhum

prak sarira-vimoksanat

kama-krodhodbhavam vegam

sa yuktah sa sukhi narah

yo 'ntah-sukho 'ntar-aramas

tathantar-jyotir eva yah

sa yogi brahma-nirvanam

brahma-bhuto 'dhigacchati

labhante brahma-nirvanam

rsayah ksina-kalmasah

chinna-dvaidha yatatmanah

sarva-bhuta-hite ratah

kama-krodha-vimuktanam

yatinam yata-cetasam

abhito brahma-nirvanam

vartate viditatmanam

Before giving up this present body, if one is able to tolerate the urges of the material senses and check the force of desire and anger, he is a yogi and is happy in this world. (5.23)

One who finds happiness with the Self, who rejoices the Self within, and who is illuminated by the Self-knowledge; such a yogi becomes one with Brahman and attains supreme nirvana. (5.24)

Seers whose sins (or imperfections) are destroyed, whose doubts have been dispelled by knowledge, whose disciplined minds are attached with the Self, and who are engaged in the welfare of all beings attain Supreme Brahman. (5.25)

A Self-realized person who is free from lust and anger, and who has subdued the mind and senses easily attains nirvana. (5.26)

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width=624 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=center bgColor=#ffffff>Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad

At the time of death with steadfast mind and devotion; making the flow of Pranic impulse rise up (to the middle of two eye brows) by the power of yoga and holding there; attains the Supreme divine spirit. (See also 4.29, 5.27, and 6.13) (8.10)

I shall briefly explain to you (the process to attain) that goal which the knowers of the Vedas call the imperishable; into which the ascetics, freed from attachment, enter; and desiring which people lead a life of celibacy. (8.11)

Controlling all the (nine) doors of the body, the abode of consciousness; focusing the mind on the heart and Prana in the cerebrum, and engaged in yogic practice; (8.12)

One who leaves the body while meditating on Brahman and uttering OM, the sacred monosyllable sound of Brahman, attains the Supreme goal. (8.13)

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Quite true, yogi refers to a devotee of Lord as mentioned in various places. This is the procedure by which the pure devotees leave their bodies. Please see the context of these verses from 8.5-8.9. I think that you go by the currently circulating meaning of yogi thinking that the scriptures' meaning is the same which is actually quite different.

Well I beg to differ not because yogi can not be referred us Bhakta just as devotion is not a property of a Bhakta, because no path can be chosen without devotion to it.

Having said this, I accept the verse 8.5-8.9 refers to Bhakti but you fail to see verse 8.10-8.13 refers to yogic practice unless you think controlling prana, raising it in between the eye brows or studying Vedas, remaining celibate, to attain imperishable Brahman are practices common to followers of Bhakti.

Nope. It is clearly stated in Bhagavad-Gita (verses 9.24, 8.15-21, 9.3, 7.15, 7.29-30, 14.26, 12.6-7) as well as sruti that only devotion to Vishnu knowing Him to be the Supreme can lead to liberation. The worship of Vishnu Himself can be done in various ways (the nine ways given in Srimad-Bhagavatam or Bhagavad-Gita 9.15 as you pointed out etc.).

Not so fast these are your opinions only, Bhakti is one way and perhaps easy means to liberation where else Krishna does not discount other paths, all be it they may be more trouble some. Other then that he also in no uncertain terms answers Arjuns question in what other way can I worship you? Amongst many other thing he says he is Shankra amongst Rudra, I have no problem accepting that as in face value and if that was not enough this is what Bhagvat puran says

23. O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.

SB 4.6/45 O most auspicious lord, you have ordained the heavenly planets, the spiritual Vaikuntha planets and the impersonal Brahman sphere as the respective destinations of the performers of auspicious activities. Similarly, for others, who are miscreants, you have destined different kinds of hells which are horrible and ghastly. Yet sometimes it is found that their destinations are just the opposite. It is very difficult to ascertain the cause of this.

4.7/50-54 The lord said: The supreme cause of the universe, I am also Brahma (the creator) and Lord Shiva (the destroyer of the universe). I am the self, the lord and the witness, self effulgent and unqualified. Embracing my own Maya, consisting of the three gunas, it is I who create, protect and destroy the universe have assumed names appropriate to my functions, O Brahmana! It is in such a Brahman, the supreme sprit, who is one without a second, that the ignorant fool views Brahma, Rudra and other beings as distinct entities.

SB 4.6.42: Lord Brahma said: My dear Lord Shiva, I know that you are the controller of the entire material manifestation, the combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, and the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation as well. I know you in that way.

SB 8.7.20: The devas observed Lord Śiva sitting on the summit of Kailāsa Hill with his wife, Bhavānī, for the auspicious development of the three worlds. He was being worshiped by great saintly persons desiring liberation. The devas offered him their obeisances and prayers with great respect.

Therefore when a devotee of Lord Shiva worship him as supreme and thus gain libretion in Mahesh dham

Markand rishi became immortal worshiping Lord shiva.

The famous Mrityunjaya-mantra of Shiva occurs both in Rigveda ( VII.59.12) and Yajurveda. The great mantra of Shiva, Panchakshari, appears already in Yajurveda, in the Rudradhyaya section of Taittiriya-samhita (IV.5.7) and Satarudriya of Vajasaneyi-samhita (Ch. 16,18).

this is my last say on this thread, i know you have your opinion which would be different and i respect that.

Haribol

Jay Shiv Shankar har har maha dev hara

Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh

Pranam, sumedh ji

We are just rehashing same things

Which is incorrect as has been stated before. Nowhere does the literature that HKs follow say so. Since you are intent on repeating an incorrect thing over and over, there is no point continuing this unless you produce evidence of the same.

You are right we are going round in circle getting no where. The literature is vast full of opinion, which can be contentious issue to some, nothing there, which can not be debated in a civil way.

But the mentality is not something one can legislate or prove it is something that some do perceive which obviously you do not see or want to acknowledge. Hindus can be abused, called names, simply non existence, hotch potch or they are on material platform and yes easy target for our next project so let us be nice to them for the time being. The holier then thou attitude can not be proven but the undercurrent are felt right down the spine.

You call asking for evidence of validity of one's position in context of liberation as ridiculing. Well then we have completely different notions in this regard.

Asking for evidence is no problem, ridiculing that path from on set (and that is what happened regarding this thread) is.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width=624 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=center bgColor=#ffffff>Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad

Men in the mode of goodness worship the devas; those in the mode of passion worship the demons; and those in the mode of ignorance worship ghosts and spirits. (17.4)

 

 

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Of course, also see 7.20-23, 9.23-24, 9.25 etc. which clearly say that only His devotees attain liberation. Not all in the mode of goodness acheive liberation.

I see verse 7.20-23 which is widely quoted to ridicule the worship of Devas, it is funny how we ignore the fact that Krishna clearly states that and I quote

kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah

prapadyante 'nya-devatah

tam tam niyamam asthaya

prakrtya niyatah svaya

They, whose wisdom has been carried away by various desires impelled by their own Sanskaara, resort to other devas and practice various religious rites.

This applies to those who worship them for material desires.

Otherwise why would he recommend the worship of Devas in chapter three, which you conveniently omitted.

Nourish the Devas with Yajna, and the Devas will nourish you. Thus nourishing one another you shall attain the Supreme goal. (3.11)

As to 9.23-25

Of course if I worship a particular deity I expect to go their stands to reason, what is wrong in that.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width=624 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=center bgColor=#ffffff>Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad

Knowing these two paths, O Arjuna, a yogi is not bewildered at all. Therefore, O Arjuna, be steadfast in yoga (of meditation) at all times. (8.27)

 

 

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Oh, the two paths mentioned are those of light and darkness not two paths to acheive liberation. Please see the previous verse 8.26 which makes it clear that only passing from this world through the path of light leads to liberation.

Yes my friend I do understand the utrayan and dakshin marg and its implications, these are not for ordinary being, the yogis know of these paths and achieve it, that was my point.

At the time of death with steadfast mind and devotion; making the flow of Pranic impulse rise up (to the middle of two eye brows) by the power of yoga and holding there; attains the Supreme divine spirit. (See also 4.29, 5.27, and 6.13) (8.10)

I shall briefly explain to you (the process to attain) that goal which the knowers of the Vedas call the imperishable; into which the ascetics, freed from attachment, enter; and desiring which people lead a life of celibacy. (8.11)

Controlling all the (nine) doors of the body, the abode of consciousness; focusing the mind on the heart and Prana in the cerebrum, and engaged in yogic practice; (8.12)

One who leaves the body while meditating on Brahman and uttering OM, the sacred monosyllable sound of Brahman, attains the Supreme goal. (8.13)

Even if someone claimed that his/her is the only path to liberation, it is very much justified if there is evidence for the same and not a problem as long as he/she does not force it on others.

It would be justified if that was true but we know there are other valid paths and I am going to leave at that for I have no ax to grind I am not going to bring any specific because it would be futile on my part, we will always find a valid excuse to justify our position that is the nature of this world.

Nice to have talked to you, all the best.

haribol

Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh

Pranam Sumedh ji

We obviously have a different take on this verse. For one, the verse never mentions infinite, rather says "mam". A more acceptable translation would be: Yet others sacrifice with the yagna of Knowledge and worship Me in various ways as the One, as the distinct and as the all-faced (or universal Form). In any case the context is that this refers to persons other than the great souls mentioned in 9.13-14 who are always chanting and devotion to Krishna while this verse gives the endevours done by others.

I accept your version, although infinite was interchanged for "mam" to indicate, nature of the supreme in that worship. Anyway the verse was quoted to state that there truly are various other way of worship as confirmed by Lord Krishna.

Which is fine and worship of Krishna can be done in various ways (as 9.15 says), though of course there are also an infinite number of other paths (which are infinitely more than the correct paths) which do not lead to the destination. Thus this distinction of right and wrong paths is always there as is also given in numerous places in Bhagavad-Gita (e.g. 2.41, 9.11-12, Chapter 16).

That said then hks assertion of this is the only path can be ignored, and I don’t mean the path itself but the mentality that this is the only way.

I am sorry I do not accept, that there are infinite number of wrong paths which leads to wrong destination, on the contrary it is the path that we choose that leads us to our destination.

I can appreciate verses you quoted but I fail to see value in the context of this discussion, no one is suggesting to adopt all the various path described, to reach the supreme goal and certainly no one is suggesting to adopt raksasi and asuri vriti.

Surely we are not discussing Divine and Demonic Qualities of chapter 16, which are very important for self-analysis of ones, own quality. You can check what I posted earlier to this regard and I quote again

"Just as the sun dispel the darkness, Dharma based on truthfulness, purity, nonviolence and austerity lead us to the love of god. Inquiry is to seek the truth."

There are many that do follow various other paths, yet there those who try and ridicule that. it helps no one.

To further prove the point check verse in BG.

Nourish the Devas with Yajna, and the Devas will nourish you. Thus nourishing one another you shall attain the Supreme goal. (3.11)

Note, the word supreme goal.

Men in the mode of goodness worship the devas; those in the mode of passion worship the demons; and those in the mode of ignorance worship ghosts and spirits. (17.4)

naite srti partha janan

yogi muhyati kascana

tasmat sarvesu kalesu

yoga-yukto bhavarjuna

Knowing these two paths, O Arjuna, a yogi is not bewildered at all. Therefore, O Arjuna, be steadfast in yoga (of meditation) at all times. (8.27)

</PRE>vedesu yajnesu tapahsu caiva

danesu yat punya-phalam pradistam

atyeti tat sarvam idam viditva

yogi param sthanam upaiti cadyam

The yogi who knows all this goes beyond getting the benefits of the study of the Vedas, performance of sacrifices, austerities, and charities, and attains the Supreme eternal abode. (8.28)

This needs to corrected: "the HKs say that there are correct paths and incorrect paths" and what those have already been given before. Besides, the point being made was that accepting anyone's philosophy for fear of discord is not an acceptable position.

If HKs sticks to the correct path that they follow no one would have any difficulty but when you try and shove that in someone’s face you will find a reaction.

I don’t think I am suggesting for one minute to accept for your self someone else position, this is the beauty of Hindu Dharma it does not impose, people follow different paths, straight or crooked, according to their temperament, depending on which they consider best, or most appropriate

Respect not out of fear but respect that someone has a right to follow and choose the path that he/she sees fit.

You seem to confuse peace with (intellectual) disagreement.

I don’t think so; I have absolute no problem to agree to disagree, problem will only manifest if we go on a crusade, mine is the only way.

Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh

Pranam Sumedh ji

Knowledge of right path automatically means knowledge of incorrect paths also. This is what means by "tamaso maa jyotir gamaya".

Really I thought this is a prayer where we acknowledge our helpless position of ignorance and ask the almighty to lead us out of it.

The paths are many as acknowledge by Krishna and I quote again

Some worship Me by knowledge sacrifice. Others worship the infinite as the one in all (or non-dual), as the master of all (or dual), and in various other ways. (9.15)

I may choose to go to a particular place, so the choices could be many how to get there, e.g. flight, by train, by road or rely on the most trusted the walk, depending on where one is, path is chosen. There are pitfalls on whatever one chooses but the choice is our to make, what is the need to ridicule any?

blah, blah... The problem of discord is primarily that of abrahamic religions who have no culture of civil, rational discussion nor any frameworks for such. Please don't try to bring in these kind of arguments here.

Well thank you even with blah blah, I welcome your observation on the shortcomings of the said religion, which is precisely the point, I am trying to make, when hk says ours is the only way.

Yes, people are free to give their own interpretations and vedanta provides the framework to show correct and incorrect interpretations which many acharyas have done. Agreeing with any interpretation, however incorrect/absurd, for fear of an imagined "discord" is stupid and not vedantic way (and not even appropriate in modern scientific way).

Given those interpretations who is to say one is more right then the other and yearning for peace is no new phenomena nor stupid or unVedic.

Many Upanishad start with this invocation I wonder why?

Aum Saha Naavavathu Sahanau Bhunaktu

Saha Veeryam Kara Vaavahai

Tejasvi Naavadheetamastu Maa Vidwishaavahai

Aum Shantih Shantih Shantihi

Meaning: May the Lord protect us both, may He nourish us both, may we work together with great vigor (divine strength). May we both acquire brilliance of our intellect through our studies, may we not hate each other. Let there be peace, peace, peace.

You are welcome to start by presenting quotes about kundalini yoga from sruti which is the topic of this thread.

Topic of this thread was and I quote

[quote

(What are some practices that can actually awaken the Fire Snake and if you had any experiences of this awakening how was it?)

Jai Ganesh

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width=624 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=center bgColor=#ffffff>Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad

Vedic Dharma has always been based on inquiry unlike abharmic religion whose aim is to convert the world to their way of thinking, danger is if we go down that route the discussion goes out of window. Just as the sun dispel the darkness Dharma based on truthfulness, purity, nonviolence and austerity lead us to the love of god. Inquiry is to seek the truth; invalidity of incorrect path has never been the object of discussion.

 

 

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your reply

This is incorrect. Read commentries (on vedanta sutra or otherwise) of any of the acharyas.

What part is incorrect, is it the highlighted in bold only, do you agree with the rest?

Search for invalidity of incorrect path could never lead us on the path of enlightenment.

Bring in any reference I would like to know if you please. Yes it is true that we should know what is right and what is wrong but going towards the tunnel of dark ness will not lead to light.

We chant in our prayers;

Asatoma Sadgamaya

Thamaso Maa Jyothir Gamaya

Mrithyor Maa Amrutham Gamaya

Aum Shanti Shanti Shantihi

Meaning: Lead me from the unreal to the real. Lead me from darkness to light. Lead me from death to immortality. May there be peace everywhere.

Sarve Sukhinah Santhu

Sarve Santhu Niraamayaah

Sarve Bhadraani Pashyantu

Maa Kaschid Dukhabhaag Bhavet

Aum Shanti Shanti Shantihi

Meaning: May all possess happiness. May all be healthy (free from all diseases). May all see beauty. May there be good fortune and no misery anywhere. May there be peace everywhere.

Aum Bhadram Karnebhihi Srunuyaama Devaaha

Bhadram Pashyemaa Kshibhirya Jatraaha

Sthirai Rangai Stushtuvaamsa Stanoobhihi

Vyashema Devahitam Yadaayuhu

Aum Shanti Shanti Shantihi

Meaning: Aum Hey Devaas, who are in the form of light, let our ears hear all good things. Hey worshippable Devas, let our eyes see good and holy things. May we spend this life given to us by God in continued prayers to You with a strong body, sound in health.

These are our noble Vedic thoughts that yearns for peace and harmony on our path of self-realisation.sorry to say the narrow view of mine is better than yours attitude only brings discord.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width=624 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=center bgColor=#ffffff>Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad

Vedas are given to us based on realizations of several rishis, so I am never surprised by the differences.

 

 

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your reply

No, they are apaurusheya and shabd pramana. The position of experience based scriptures, or God given scriptures is rejected (as being "chakraka" or circularity) in Vedanta. Read this for an introduction on vedas (chapter 17 is available for download here ). That is why sruti is considered as primary evidence and smriti as secondary (which is paurusheya), while the experience based scriptures are not considered at all.

Apaurusheya that may be but it still remains subject of interpertation, or else vedas as establised by sankracharya would be accepted by all, and thus we would be all be his deciples.

So be my guest; win an argument based on sruti, which is not even a subject of this discussion.

May common sense prevail.

Tulsidas Goswami writes

O Lord, let any one accept any sadhana, he is free to follow its pursuit.

But to me Your name is the granter of all boons.

Karma, upasana, jnana - the various paths outlined in the Vedas for the emancipation of the soul - all are good.

But I seek only one shelter and that is Your name; I seek nothing besides….

Goswami belonged to no sect he did not open any samprdaya, yet his work and his sadhna inspires million over the years.

haribol

Jai Shree Krishna

<FONT size=2>

<P>Jai Ganesh</P>

<P>Pranam sumedh ji</P>

<P>Re</P>

<P>(I believe we left siddhanta discussion long time back, rather this discussion with yourself was limited to accusations against HKs in particular. I do not see any "fudging the issue" in my reply, rather i tried to deal with each of your points.)</P>

<P> </P>

<P>I do not remember having disscussed with you but never mind that is a sure sign I am loosing it, a symptom of Kali yuga.</P>

<P> </P>

<P> </P>

<P>Re<BR>(Selective quoting is not proper and you have missed the context. Here are other quotes by YKji previously in this thread and i have been responding mostly to those: Not mentioning other silly points like in </FONT><A href="http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/1039067-post46.html"><FONT color=#606420 size=2>http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/1039067-post46.html</FONT></A><FONT size=2> , my responses were mostly to deal with these prevalent misnomers which lack any scriptural support.)</FONT></P>

<P><FONT size=2></FONT> </P>

<P><FONT size=2> </P>

<P>Sure and I can appreciate were you are coming from, and perhaps his remark were knee jerk response to some of the comments made in response to this thread but he did mend his way and thus those quotes.</P>

<P> </P>

<P><BR> </P>

<P>Re<BR>(Regarding "putting my way over your way", this has been adequately answered in the previous email. To summarize:<BR>* There is nothing wrong with showing evidence for one's own philosophy and lack of evidence for others' (particularly when points like "chanting is unvedic", "bhakti is first step" etc. are raised).<BR>* HKs do not reject everything else -- the vaishnava sampradayas are accepted as valid while worship of other deities is favoured considering them as exalted vaishnavas.<BR>* The vedantic approach consists of showing validity of one's path and demonstrating invalidity of incorrect paths. This has been done by all schools and should be done otherwise there is no intellectual honesty (e.g. why doesn't a school adopt others philosophy if that is correct and superior, like YKji says that Kundalini yoga is higher form of yoga) and there would be no end to unverifiable claims. The strength and beauty of Vedanta is its comprehensiveness, preciseness and i believe that only Vedanta can stand in any rational discussion above and over other philosophies including material science.)</P>

<P> </P>

<P> </P>

<P>Vedic Dharma has always been based on inquiry unlike abharmic religion whose aim is to convert the world to their way of thinking, danger is if we go down that route the discussion goes out of window. Just as the sun dispel the darkness Dharma based on truthfulness, purity, nonviolence and austerity lead us to the love of god. Inquiry is to seek the truth; invalidity of incorrect path has never been the object of discussion.</P>

<P> </P>

<P>Vedas are given to us based on realizations of several rishis, so I am never surprised by the differences.</P>

<P>Atri Rishi desiring a son equal to supreme Brahman not knowing who that was did his tapas and we all know what was the result. </P>

<P>If in our search of churning the Vedas the poison results, let us not dish out this because unlike Lord Shiva we are not able to digest it and I believe no poison could actually result from Vedas.</P>

<P><BR>haribol</P>

<P>Jai Shree Krishna</P></FONT>

Jai Ganesh

Pranam Sumedji

You have made a lot of points here; a classic case of fudging the issue, no sidhanta has been discussed here is it?

Bhakti is very dear to most Hindus, we are brought up on this from our childhood, sidhnta comes later in our life and the beauty of our Dharma is there is no compulsion we choose the mode of our worship to suit our personality and then progress on our journey of self realization.

If only we take heed of what Krishna say in Bg we would not have problem and I quote

Persons of firm resolve worship Me with ever steadfast devotion by always singing My glories, striving to attain Me, and prostrating before Me. (9.14)

Some worship Me by knowledge sacrifice. Others worship the infinite as the one in all (or non-dual), as the master of all (or dual), and in various other ways. (9.15)

The problem only arise when there are factions with their own agenda to push and perhaps this is what Ykji was eluding and I quote

Yk

But I repect your bhakti movement. I find nothing wrong with it. Except for the God positioning agenda and puting my sampradaya philosophy over others agenda! I wish you were a simple bhakta lots zealing for the benevolence of the almighty! After all all that is what matters.

Love,

The only conflicting factor with Gaudiyas is putting my way over your way.

Rest is fine. Bhakti is fine. But the uncontrollable urge to prove bhakti and especially Gaudiya line of bhakti over every other line of belief is wrong! Dead wrong!

There is strong bhakti amongst yogis. There is very strong bhakti amongst tantriks. If they are real tantriks. Nothing wrong. In fact tantra requires complete surrender to the Guru first to progress. What's wrong with that? Guru is the bridge between the Lord and the disciple.

There is very strong bhakti amongst Shiv bhaktas and those who worship Lord Ramachandra. There is bhakti amongst worshipers of Lord Ganesha.

And I repect all these bhaktas :)Other systems are not devoid of bhakti. It is the basic element. But you can't put down everyone else and every other school of thought just because u r into some high notch bhakti fling. Un quote.

This is the Hindu way, some call it a fudge, but there is a lot to it then meet the eye.

I have a lot to thank hk for in many ways, chanting the holy name is an excellent process therefor I should learn to not criticize and take what’s best on offer.

The one who remains the same towards friend or foe, in honor or disgrace, in heat or cold, in pleasure or pain; who is free from attachment; and (12.18)

The one who is indifferent or silent in censure or praise, content with anything, unattached to a place (country, or house), equanimous, and full of devotion; that person is dear to Me. (12.19)

Jai Shree Krishna

To be consistent, you must also say the same to those who claim that Bhakti is just the first step (and thus inferior) and that yoga etc. are higher forms -- which includes YKji./quote

 

Apart from the problem that this is inconsistent, the claims themselves have no scriptural support. It is quite surprising to find people favour claims without any firm basis, and put down the "HKs" and other vaishnavas whose methods are directly given in the scriptures.

No problem here on my part, but then I don’t see a yogi or gyani going out shouting from roof top asking people to give up their Bhakti and take up their yoga prctice, and this is not what is under discussion is it?

Hk consistently denigrate others modes of worship always maintain we are better then you attitude. This thread is about awaking Kundli yet we are told by some, what use is it just chant. Have you or anyone else addressed this objection?

It is a matter of opinion making a general statement saying there is no scriptural support but if we look hard enough we could justify almost anything but would it be Dharma? There is no agenda to put down anyone, just making observation on reality that prevails within the hk movement, the need to preach in the name of Bhakti has reached such a stage that even a dreamer feels the need to go out and preach.

Jai Shree Krishna