Ganeshprasad

Jai Ganesh If someone comes and want to disrupt your practice and rob you Re (--you are not speaking of simple personal defense... you are speaking of organized political actions. And someone wants during these actions to stop spiritual practices) Same difference personal or organized if the enemy is strong and organized you has no choice but to organize. In fact we should redouble our spiritual practice as well as protecting the dharma.in this instance maadhav is wrong to suggest we stop our spiritual practice, but his concern is well justified therefor we should act to stem the flow of asuric ideology that is trying to engulf our Vedic land. Re (--if you want to put politics over religion it is blindness) If you remain indifferent to politics that infringes your freedom that will be costly we Hindu know the cost over thousand years of misery. One thing we did not stop was our Dharma practice so your assumption is baseless. So my question is how do you remove the veil without following Dharma? Re (--no possibility) No possibility of what removing the veil or following the Dharma or both? It would be nice if you can keep to the context of discussion; your accusation has no valid reason. RE (--the context of discussion is that someone wants to stop spiritual practices for the purpose to bring back spirituality.. thing that's foolish) I meant flow of our discussion, the line of my question to you. In either way you will never know for sure. Re (--so why ask?) It was your own statement that prompted me to ask. Re (--no.. they are based on what has been said in this thread : "If all people just chant and do nothing, it is not possible to achieve such a state/rashtra and culture.) If you read better the operative word is if do nothing. Re (that's absolutely asuric... and i wonder why are you defending such position only to keep the party together) I have said this many times I do not belong to any party nor have I asked anyone to stop chanting or Dharma worship. Re (wake up) Yes wake up, we all must both to do our worship as well as protecting what we cherish, our Dharma Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh You do know how to stick to the point don’t you. Re (--so let us practice without interrupting the practice for politics) Yes let us practice in peace I am all for it, but if someone comes and want to disrupt your practice and rob you, you do not do anything that is sure recipe for disaster, this is how Bharat was enslaved. Re (--if you do not remove the veil, you cannot see what's dharmic and what's peaceful) Now you have changed your answer you are not accusing me of being blind, so my question is how do you remove the veil without following dharma? What you fail to understand is when a child starts school he/she does not know a thing but gets the knowledge there in the school. Re (--so keep the schools open and get advice from masters .. and be humble when they say that you are wrong) it would be nice if you can keep to the context of discussion, your accusation has no valid reason. re (--who is not free, if he's truthful, he will say to you that he's not free, who is free is humble and he'll say to you that he's the lowest of worms) In either way you will never know for sure. Re (so your question is useless) Your accusations are baseless Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (you want simply play with words to say that even if one is not completely realized he can act and do something good.... and i agree) who is playing with words? Who is dodging the question asked? let me remind you what you wrote in reply to my statement. I stated Vedic dharma is very peaceful, protecting and practicing it will bring the peace. Before one can remove the veil of maya one needs to practice dharma in peace, to go to desire destination. Your reply --how can you know what's dharma and what's peace without removing maya's veil? how can a blind man have a vision of dharma? What you fail to understand is when a child starts school he/she does not know a thing but gets the knowledge there in the school. With spiritual life it is the same we are for ever learning with grace of god the veil of maya is removed. The Lord says those who are on path of self realization there is no loss even after death they start from where they left off. So I ask you again are you free from maya? Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh "you have still not answer my question are you free from maya?" Re (are you planning to become my disciple?) :-) do you always answer with a question? I need a honest answer to my simple question, you have made a big claim here so answer here with honesty are you free from maya? Truthfulness is one of the four pillars of Dharma Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (my initial debate was not with you.. but with madhaav who has proposed to stop or put aside chanting.. even you have objected...) If you want I stop. You are doging answer my question. Re (arjuna act in a dharmic way because his mind is absorbed in transcendence... if he were not surrendered to krsna he were simply a sinner and he should have had to pay all the karma for having killed millions of people) In other words every thing most of do is adharma I know I am not in transcendence. Why did Krishna asked pandavas to atone and pray to lord Shiva after the war? you have still not answer my question are you free from maya? Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (I feel timid to reply to you. But let us check each other on progress from time to time. There may be nothing novel for you in the following.) Why, you are much more learned then I am, I would love to keep up with each other from time to time. You are someone I can relate to as both of us have love for that supreme lord who goes by many names. Everything you have written is refreshing and sometime hard for me to digest. Re (Is there is a question of reconnection? Since connection was never broken. Brahman is all, so where is the connection and lose connection? All this is consciousness alone. Seeing the body as self makes one see the solid universe and duality and the all pervading Sutratma is missed. But there is no lose connection.) I like this, connection was never broken. So why do I feel detached? So where from the avidhya comes to perceive the body as self? **************Why does lord veils the truth? Did we desire that? ******************* re (In Br. Up., it is stated that Maya bound jivas are pasus to Devas, who do not like to lose control. This is the only clear cut statement I can find. Most other explanations are hazy.) are devas control freaks? Why are jivas maya bound? Desires-- again the same question why? re (It is also told that when Jiva makes effort, Indra sends hurdles -- to test and perhaps also to obstruct.) yes we read this in purans all the time. For the rest of your answers I have few questions which I will ask later if I may meantime our only hope is the grace of aditi *************The mind is like a monkey, how does one still the mind to reach the Turiya state? ************************* By Self effort; total surrender with entire mind (bhakti), continuous nama japa, and Vicara constitute Self effort. Grace is constant. Shivam Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Yes we have to wake up and make Bharat great again of course with following the dharma. Re (why you fight if you agree? ) who is fighting with who? Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Stop misrepresenting the Gita just to suite your view point Re (..the essence of gita is that an action becomes automatically dharmic if who acts is really and deeply surrendered... or no action is really dharmic.) What is really and deeply surrendered? Very subjective It is far better to discharge one's prescribed duties, even though they may be faultily, than another's duties. Destruction in the course of performing one's own duty is better than engaging in another's duties, for to follow another's path is dangerous. gahana karmano gatih Re (..read better and you'll understand that i am not your enemy, but the one who thinks that neglecting the spiritual duties is possible to find dharma) I have never proposed to abandon dharma. friends like you who need enemy. re (...and this is the real discussion... without devotion no dharma can exist, no bharata varsa can be rebuilt) devotion comes in many forms and expressed in different ways. (--how can you know what's dharma and what's peace without removing maya's veil? how can a blind man have a vision of dharma?) When you start school are you full of knowledge? re (...so keep the spirituality school open... do not close it because you are occupied in making bharata varsa... or you will not build it) you have not answered my question but your answer above is very interesting, we have never proposed to shut spirituality school, on the contrary our proposal is to save this institute from foreign and barbaric ideology, are you against that? ARE YOU FREE FROM MAYA? Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Pranam maadhavji Re (these "chanters", although they accepted the vedic dharma, have failed to give up xian mentality of holding the monopoly in everything. they want to say that all the various hindu/vedic ways are useless, and only chanting is the way.) This evangelical concept of mine is the only way follow it or you are doomed is complete against the Vedic way.It is very divisive. Chanting is very good and very potent but it is not artificial not a show it has to be from within. Re (i do not see it that way, and the vedic literature does not support it either. while most of the followers and supporters of these "chanters" are hindus, still the "chanters" slander and look down at hindus, and glorify islam, the greatest destroyer of the vedic lives and religious infrastructure.) I agree with you our mentality of being subservient to old masters takes time to disappear. Re (all they need to do is not preach the quire (those from whom they learned to chant instead of living hippy life) and focus their preaching effort on teh anti-vedics in bharat.) I don’t mind what they do, they have their agenda which does not include hindus welfare. re (because the ant-vedics are organied and well funded, we hindus have no choice but to orgaise and act unitedly to maintain our valued vadic culture in bharat.) Yes we have to wake up and make Bharat great again of course with following the dharma. Re (bhai, aapaNu bhalu.n aapaNej karavaanu chhe. ee jaapia muslao ne jap shikaade to saaru. krashna naam no jaap kare, ne gandhi ni nakaami ahinsaa shikhade te khotu.) Ha bhai aapNe nai kaRiye to koi nahi kare. Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (--it is wrong because in bhagavad gita it is said that the action become dharmic if the mind is engaged in thinking of krsna.) Stop misrepresenting the Gita just to suite your view point, you know as well, us Hindus, are well aware what is dharma and Lord Krishna does speak of various forms of Dharma. MukhMe Ram or bugalMe churi. Chanting Lords name and ready to cut someone down can never be Dharmic action. In name of Krishna I rob someone of their good earned money so that I can live a life of luxury can never be Dharma. Re (So if there's not surrendering to a uttama adhikari spiritual master and constant spiritual practice like the chanting of the holy name.. no activity can be called vedic or dharmic.) we are well aware of this, are you suggesting we do not respect our spiritual master? We are thought to chant names of the lord from infant, our first guru are our parents, if one who can not respect that, he can never respect any other authority. You have no idea what is Vedic or dharma,you learned a few slokas and now you think you know it all. Protecting vedic heritage is not politics Re (--so let us protect our being vedic persons cultivating spiritual consciousness with devotion, harinama, prayers and other spiritual practices. Only in this way our action will be effective to build up a new bharata varsa) I have no argument on this. Re (--if you act without any spiritual purpose you commit sins and you surely will have to pay.. and to pay is to be put in the same situation of the ones that we are now making suffer) Protecting vedic heritage can never be sin, I am not making anyone suffer. You have no knowledge how Karma works.Sada tad bhava bhavita, so if I am engaged in protecting the vedic culture and I see that as only the goal, than I come back to do the same, and if the lord is pleased with my service he may even grant me the knowledge to know him in truth. protect the dharma dharma will protect you. Re --of course..and the dharma is 18.66.. "surrender to me...". So surrender and any your activity will be protected.) Yes that plus many of his other instructions, veda speaks of many dharma and that is also vedic. Re (Arjuna makes no sin in killing millions of people because he's surrendered. Not that his activity is automatically surrendering.) That was his duty to uphold the Dharma as a ksatriya. before one can remove the veil of maya one needs to practice dharma in peace Re (--how can you know what's dharma and what's peace without removing maya's veil? how can a blind man have a vision of dharma?) When you start school are you full of knowledge? Are you free from maya? Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (All karma is of mind and not of soul.) i do not understand, how can mind accumulate Karma it is a tool not the doer. Re (Even, Lord of the Universe gives control of his power of cognition and desire to Saktiman Purusa.) Please explain is the lord of universe and saktiman purusa two different entity? Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (Like, a person who is in shade is in happiness but he does not know it. He goes out to scorching Sun and then he realizes that the original state was one of bliss. Rig Veda tells that in deep sleep jiva is one with Brahman but Jiva does not know it, since Lord veils the truth.) in other words we can only be happy when we reconnect with Brahman(god) Why does lord veils the truth? Did we desire that? Re THe same truth some sages state in different fashion: Consciousness plus waking is waking state. Consciousness plus dream is dream state. Consciousness plus deep sleep is sleep state. But pure Consciousness is ever there. This pure Consciousness is realizable during waking by stilling the mind (The Turiya state) One who has control over the mind is tranquil in heat and cold, in pleasure and pain, and in honor and dishonor; and is ever steadfast with the Parmatma (6.07) The mind is like a monkey, how does one still the mind to reach the Turiya state? Because the mind, indeed, is very unsteady, turbulent, powerful, and obstinate, O Krishna. I think restraining the mind is as difficult as restraining the wind. (6.34) Re (The chinmudra of Lord Dakshinamurti is symbolic of this truth. The silence ensuing at the end of OM is also this truth. And a mind absorbed at the source of "I" is also this truth.) Please expand what is chinmudra, who is Lord of Dakshinamurti? I can understand the mind fixed on the source of I is easy to relate to but hard to fix. *********What is the root of our desire?**************** re (Scriptures say that the original proclamation of one concsiousness: "I am Brahman", is the original desire.) I fail to see how the proclamation I am Brahman be root of my desire. The desire that leads to misery and pain. Re (Atanu was not born with his conscious free will. AS Atanu, he did not choose parents. Atanu did not know that he will participate in these debates. So, who desires?) I am sure the karma is the answer to above. Who am I? and Who desires? are the fundamental questions. Re (Moreover, do we carry load on our head when we board a train? Similarly, all load (as well as pleasurable acts and their fruits) can be simply surrendered to the Lord.) In real sarnagati I am sure the lord carries all our burden, but like dog underneath a cart thinks he is carrying all the waight that is my sorry state. **********Am I this ego?***************** Re (During deep meditation, when mind is not attached to external objects, the concept "I am this" is replaced by "I-I" or "I am". This is said to be pure Consciousness, which exists as ONE in the middle of everywhere and every being. It experiences "I am Atanu" and "That is Ganeshprasad". But all these experiencing is within one single Consciousness only. The ego sense assumes ownership of Atanu and starts ruling Atanu. Once that ego sense is sought, it is not found -- during meditation and on rational enquiry as well. And once ego (bhanda Asur) is killed Jiva is liberated. Actually jiva is free always but ego sense hides the truth.) Who is this ego and from where does this come from? Krishna says some thing like this, Ahankre Vimudh Atma thinks he is the doer I can not remember the whole sloka. Re In Br. Up., it is stated that Maya bound jivas are pasus to Devas, who do not like to lose control. For removal of the veil we need the grace of Aditi -- Lakshmi, Sarawaswati, and Durga. This episode is recounted in Keno Up., wherein Durga grants the vision of Brahman to Indra. One job of Durga (Shiva Duti) -- during Dasa Hara, is to kill Bhanda Asur (the shameless ego, which claims ownership of "I"). How does one receive the grace of Aditi? Re (Sir, I am sure, there is no ignorance for you. Only more and more practice in meditation will take you to the destination.) I do not deserve your praise, but yes more one practice then the veil of ignorance is removed with the grace of the lord. Re (Devi Kalottara is a set of teaching imparted to Devi by Lord Shiva. Kallottara is that which comes at the end of time. If you wish and If I find a digital copy, I will post it. ) Thanks that will be very nice Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Who is talking about neglecting the spritual duty? Re (#madhav for xample) have you asked him if he is asking people to neglect their spritual duty? He warns us of the danger and sees that as his spritual duty, what is wrong in that? Re (#if one does not develope his spiritual life but is involved only in politics, he's not working for dharma but only for material purpose. So if i fight muslims, i will take birth as a muslim to be fought) Protecting vedic heritage is not politics, There is no logic in your statement re becoming a muslim. but i accept any birth that gives me the chance to protect the dharma and worship the lord. Re (#the dharma is to quit maya and go in vaikunta... world never will be peaceful ) There is a saying Dharman raksit raksitha meaning protect the dharma dharma will protect you. Vedic dharma is very peaceful, protecting and practicing it will bring the peace. before one can remove the veil of maya one needs to practice dharma in peace, to go to desire destination. Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Namaskar jigyasu ji. Re Taking life as it is, surrendering to His will and giving up desires to Him ---- sure medicine. No agony left.) Yes it is important to accept life as it is, since it is of our own making, born out of our own desires accumulating 1000s of good and bad karmas. O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate.(7.27) Difficult indeed it is to give up the desires after all it is for happiness that we desire. So the sure medicine of surrendering to his will and giving up the desires is still very bitter in the beginning. What is the root of our desire? Re (But, to give up desires (pertaining to "me"), is difficult if one does not enquire "Who Am I" and finds that the "i" is non-existent.) But how can I say I am nonexistent? I am very much conscious I have an existence now, and Lord Krishna says having once been you never cease to be. Re ( No agony is left when one sees that there is only one "I" -- that is Lord. No agony is left when one sees that the body is inert, and the mind is inert without support of the underlying conciousness. ) When one perceives diverse variety of beings resting in One and spreading out from That alone, then one attains Brahman. (13.30) I can appreciate there is only one big I, since i am neither this body nor this mind who am I? Re (One also realizes that though the mind does not exist in deep sleep but one exists and is in fact in bliss. So, agonies exist in the ego sense -- the "i" sense. ) Am I this ego? Re (So, some sages, (including Mahesvara in Devikallotara and Krishna in Gita) advises us to abide in Self during waking state also and teach us to realize "Lord in everyone and everyone in Lord". One who searches for the plane where from the "I" sense emerges, soon finds the source --- the Self, where from there is no return. ) Because of perceiving the (same) Self (abiding) in all beings and all beings (abiding) in the (same) Self; a yogi, who is in union with the Self, sees everybeing with an equal eye. (6.29) Those who see Me in everything and see everything in Me, are not separated from Me and I am not separated from them. (6.30) Pardon my ignorance what is Devikallotara? Jai Ganesh

Jai Ganesh Re (--so let us act according to this idea and let us put he best effort for spirituality. If we work hard for india and because we have neglected spiritual duties, we maybe take the next birth in pakistan what's the use?) Who is talking about neglecting the spritual duty? why would anyone working hard protecting the vedic heritage take birth in pakistan that would be going against the laws of Karma, but i accept any birth that gives me the chance to protect the dharma and worship the lord. Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (i agree... but if the people who chant the names of the lord were not so rare... the problems were zero) I agree also, so let us create atmosphere more conducive to chanting by defeating the ideology which has infiltrated the land or at least try and stop the stem. Of course not forgetting ones on duty of chanting and worship. Re (that's a fact... so do your political actions.. but also chant hare krsna. If politic will fail, you and the people who are in association with you will go in vaikunta and the problems will end) What you class as politics to me it is a worship, worship of mother land, where people are free to pray and chant in peace without the interference of foreign ideology, trying to tell you are kafirs or a heathens. I am fortunate to have had my parents who instill in me the value of worship and chanting and I would like to repay them by making sure what they left for us is preserved, and in this way I have association of like minded brothers and sisters who also feel the same other then that I do not belong organized group. re (material world is created specifically to be problematic, it never will be really peaceful ) Yes full of misery and temporary. This is well understood by vedic people Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (good to see this support against Mayavada. makes me feel really happy. ) cant be that bad at least it makes you happy, or is it maya? by the way what is mayavada? is it knowledge or discussion about maya(illusion)? Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh re (if they were'nt so rare we were already living in vaikunta and the problems were zero ) Well the fact is we are not in vaikunta,and the problems are many. There are those who think our chanting is wrong our worship is devil, they came and are still coming to tell us we are wrong. we need the land of bharat to remain vedic and practice our Dharma unhindered.we need the vaikunta atmosphere. Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Jai Shree Krishna Maadhvji I quiet agree that we need Bharat a vedic(hindu) state, what I can not understand is why do you choose to target the chanters of holy names in your post, those who chant 24/7 are very rare, rest of us who care are all concerned about the alien culture infecting our noble culture. Yar bahar naa manso apna desh nu hit su karvana. Pachi to jegame jagat guru jagdishne. Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (May we continue in our paths undaunted and reach the same goal.) God is one. A purush who is established in Self (who sees Lord in everyone and everyone within Lord), contains all dieties within and such a purusha binds dieties in his heart (hridaya). That is what my Guru teaches me.) Yours is a noble gesture,your guru has thought you well, you give in just as an elder brother would. It is a pity that this debate does not end in mutual respect for each others view, just as we respect others religion. Alas it is not to be I dare say if the two personalities were to personally come and instruct us some of us would still resist. All glories to Lord Krishna all glories to Lord Shiva and all glories to your Guru Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh What is happy life? One which we all search for but eludes most of us, why? We keep chewing the chewed, same old thing but no real happiness, what we mistake for pleasure is mainly relief from pangs of material struggle, born out of ignorance culminating in disappointment and yet we come back for more of the same. What is this ignorance? If we analyze our life we will find all our effort is geared towards meeting the needs of the body, eating mating sleeping and defending and you know what we always come out second best in comparing to animal life. We falsely identify our self to be this body and this is the real cause of our misery. There is neither Self-knowledge nor Self-perception to those whose senses are not under control. Without Self-perception there is no peace; and without peace there can be no happiness. (2.66) Frustrated by our effort realization the folly of our struggle we either give up or ask who am I where am I coming from what is the purpose of life? Our real journey begins, but if any one thought the journey back is bed of roses might even forget it. They say it is like walking on double edge sword. So where is the happy life? At least when I was in ignorance I had some pleasure but this spiritual path it seems is more difficult and no apparent reward. Hang in there they say it is like, to a jaundice person, the sweet sugar cane tastes like bitter. Just as Shree Krishna says This sukh, appears as poison in the beginning but is like nectar in the end, comes by the grace of Self-knowledge; is good or Saattvika. (18.37) Re (how do we know if this will be our last birth?? ) The Atma is neither born nor does it die at any time, nor having been it will cease to exist again. It is unborn, eternal, permanent, and primeval. The Atma is not destroyed when the body is destroyed. (2.20) Re (why are we here - how do I find out what is the pupose of my life?? ) No one for sure will be able to tell you why, but the fact is we are here, so what is the purpose of life? know your self, or else just as Shankracharya said punarapi janam punarapi maranam---- Jai Shree Krishna Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh I thought I would be able to agree to disagree with you but it looks like the Lord does not want me to. As I said before, it is not always easy to understand the activities of the lord, you have also not been able to accept many things lord Shree Krishna says in Gita, you have also rejected Lord Brahmas statement in Bhagvat. SB 4.6.42: Lord Brahma said: My dear Lord Shiva, I know that you are the controller of the entire material manifestation, the combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, and the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation as well. I know you in that way. Since you accept Lord Shiva as supreme creator cosmic universe, let us consider what Lord Krishna says in this regards Know that all creatures have evolved from this twofold energy, and Brahman is the origin as well as the dissolution of the entire universe. (See also 13.26) (7.06). One who knows Me as the unborn, the beginningless, and the Supreme Lord of the universe(Maheshvera), is considered wise among the mortals, and gets liberation from the bondage of Karma. (10.03) O Arjuna, I am the Atma abiding in the heart of all beings. I am also the beginning, the middle, and the end of all beings. (10.20) I shall fully describe the object of knowledge, knowing which one attains immortality. The beginningless Supreme Brahman is said to be neither Sat nor Asat. (13.13) Undivided, yet appears as if divided in beings; He, the object of knowledge, is the creator, sustainer, and destroyer of (all) beings. (13.17) There can not be two who can create sustain and destroy and therefore the lord say,undivided, yet appears divided. "4.7/50-54 The lord said: The supreme cause of the universe, I am also Brahma (the creator) and Lord Shiva (the destroyer of the universe). I am the self, the lord and the witness, self effulgent and unqualified. Embracing my own Maya, consisting of the three gunas, it is I who create, protect and destroy the universe have assumed names appropriate to my functions, O Brahmana! It is in such a Brahman, the supreme sprit, who is one without a second, that the ignorant fool views Brahma, Rudra and other beings as distinct entities. Just as a man never conceives his own head, hands and other limbs as belonging to anyone else, even so he who is devoted to me does not regard his fellow creatures as distant from himself. He who sees no difference between Us three (Brahma, Rudra and Myself)-who are identical in essence and the very selves of all living beings-attains peace, O Daksa. You may want to consider these three lord as different but for me I have no illusion about them as one without a second. Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Hare Krishna Prabhu Re (Sastrayonitvat I.1.3 "Brahman is known through scriptures alone." This is famous aphorism of Vedanta Sutra. Book knowledge is not direct path to mukti but it subserves the purpose. Heard of four things called: Sravanna - hearing. Manana - reflection. Nidhidhyasan - meditation. Darsana - Realization.) I agree in genral what you write above Atatho Braham jignshu, then our journey in to knowing the truth begin, but having read and contemplated and then you make it a point to bust others belief then you have missed the point, the point of actually realizing the self, and I am not asking you not to discriminate. What faith one has is born of desires and experience in this long and painful journey the soul is enduring in pursuit of happiness. You may argue from point of your realization having read a particular school of thought, and others may follow the path they desire from other school of thought, let us not forget acharya adi shankara who rescused the Vedas. Bg.9.15 Others, who are engaged in the cultivation of knowledge, worship the Supreme Lord as the one without a second, diverse in many, and in the universal form. What book knowledge did Gajendra had except the faith? This is all what I will write in this matter, good luck in your Maya busting but that will not lead to self realization or will it? Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya Re (The debate has gone on long enough, but you have basically indicated the reality through your final reply. Yes, you simply do not understand Shiva's activities, that's for sure. By your reply, though, you have shown that you do understand things. So when Lord Shiva says he was freed from ignorance, then Lord Shiva is saying he is not Supreme Brahman, since you just admitted than Supreme Brahman can never be under influence of ignorance.) The debate we have has been going in for eternity and I dare say it will go on for ever, until such time as one has realized the truth, we may never know for sure the activities of the lord, therefore your statement saying lord shiva was freed from ignorance is not a concrete proof that he was under the influence of ignorance. There are enough statement in the shastra to say he is supreme which you can not deny. So on that note I am prepared to agree to disagree with you. I shall chant his names along side of Ram and Krishna without any fear of any naam apradh. You only have to look at Vishnu shastranam and the Lord Shiva names are there. So chant and be happy Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (ATMAN IS KNOWN FROM SASTRA ALONE) atman is to be realized, no amount of book knowledge will realize this for us. So much ahankar and calling of names will certainy not help any one realize what we all seek. I have no desire to enter the devait adevaita discussion, since both are a valid path. Lord Krishna clearly states this in chapter 12 of Gita Arjuna said: Those ever-steadfast devotees (or Bhaktas) who thus worship You (as the manifest or personal God), and those who worship the eternal unmanifest (the formless or impersonal) Brahman (by developing Jnana), which of these has the best knowledge of yoga? (12.01) The Supreme Lord said: Those ever steadfast devotees who worship with supreme faith by fixing their mind on Me as personal God, I consider them to be the best yogis. (See also 6.47) (12.02) But those who worship the imperishable, the undefinable, the unmanifest, the omnipresent, the unthinkable, the unchanging, the immovable, and the eternal Brahman; (12.03) Restraining all the senses, even minded under all circumstances, engaged in the welfare of all creatures, they also attain Me. (12.04) Self-realization is more difficult for those who fix their mind on the formless Brahman, because the comprehension of the unmanifest Brahman by the average embodied human being is very difficult. (12.05) Jai Shree Krishna