Ganeshprasad

Pranam You omit, Youdhister Maharaj Sahdev and Nakul agreed with Draupadi. You should also learn to read a bit of Sanskrit and not rely on translation, Suta Goswami is saying Dvijas hair and jewel was removed. Clear? How is insulting ones heritage any different from one self. Infect it is worse, I was ok when a guy long time ago insulted me but when he insulted my mum and dad I stood up ready to fight him. You can defend Arjun till the cows come home but the fact remains he addressed him by his apparent birth. They did by breaking the back bone of Vedic culture by spreading lies about cast system and people like you took the bait and we are still suffering because of it. Again you are dodging let me spell it for you and I quote BG2.31: Considering your specific duty as a ksatriya, you should know that there is no better engagement for you than fighting on religious principles; and so there is no need for hesitation. This is his Kula i.e. his family tradition.that is what he was worried about The VarnaShankra. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Where is the edit features gone? i can not edit my post any help? Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Not at all. Your telling me has no value. Lets face it, those who disagree find their version of "true excuse" reading the same Shastra, but I am going to leave it at that. Care to back up your statement. Even if it true draupadi acknowledge it and Arjun acted upon her request, that is enough. I am well aware of what he had done, but their feud was well before that, it started when the Raj Kumars were having to display their ability. Do you know the story? That is because Lord Krishna knew of his real birth. Let us have the quote any way. No one can argue there. This statement would apply to any profession, still the fact remains that ones verna is determined by birth and the training starts at an early age. Better to pay obeisance to a Brahmin then to a pretender. An atheist would not pretend to command such a respect. Again you are evading the question, Arjun was clearly worried about his Kula and family tradition and his ancestors more specifically ‘Varna Shankara’ meaning destroying the Varna do you want me to quote the verse? PS this will be my last post on Varna hear, if you want take it to Brahmana thread. Jai Shree Kerishna

Pranam That is fine I don’t deny that allegories are present in sastras but Gita that is news to me. Did Lord Krishna say anything to that affect to Arjun? Question was in what various forms may I worship you was it not? And Lord Krishna answers hear my main manifestation, now if that equates to allegories you can have it. Ah ha I hear a but in the form of 'purpose' otherwise I would post it for you, but what’s the point you only try and find an excuse around it. Humans are inherently prone to making mistakes. It does not matter what you think, it is enough Draupadi had no problem with calling him a Brahmin. There is no escaping Arjun always meant and taunted him of his apparent low birth. But I also like your example, you see a brahmana child will always be known as a brahmana’s son. The Brahmin thread and training is given at an early age, that how the system was and is. Now you are evading the answer. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Now that is new for me, just like a new defination of atheist. Well let me explain this again, the puran under discussion was Padma puran so let me make this clear do you except Siva Gita of Padma puran? Sloka you quote, does not actual say the verna is determined by any particular means, simply states that one is born with some inherent quality. Now how would you judge this, without making mistakes, such a task is beyond human faculty. Finally an admission that there actually is a seminal birth by caste how ever the qualification. Here is a tacit admission that ones (pahechan) recognisation primarily is by birth but Maharaj further qualified, if they don’t saw that quality then they disqualify themselves. But no where it admits that the varna has changed. Take for example Youdhister Maharaj or Bhismapita endowed with quality par excellence never have they been addressed as any thing but Kstriya. In your haste of making him a Kstriya on the battlefield, you forget that he committed a heinous crime so in your book he should be worst then a sudra, but yet you admit that he was called a Brahmin. Yes I know that, you know that yet Arjun at the time was not to know, even though Karna was a great warrior he was address as sutaPutra, there is no doubt Arjun was addressing him off his apprent low birth therefore not worthy of him to fight with, can you see the point? Do you know the meaning of Kula, What was the family tradition of Arjun was it Brahmin, Vaisya or Sudra? My assumption are based on facts, have you ever consider the statistic of dropout rate. It would be very interesting read. don’t get me wrong, my hats off, to who ever cultivates Brahmincal quality, what is there any need of varna designation, a devotee of the lord needs no varna. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Maharaj Yudhister followed Dhrtarast and they were there in his kindom, seeing that he decided to leave and I quote SB 1.15.37: Maharaj Yudhister was intelligent enough to understand the influence of the age of Kali, characterized by increasing avarice, falsehood, cheating and violence throughout the capital, state, home and among individuals. So he wisely prepared himself to leave home, and he dressed accordingly. So it is reasonable to assume it was there in Maharaj Pariksit reign. In that case you will have to tell me what was the distress he heard and how. Great now we have a new defination of atheist, very rich. Then we have to read in gita,amongst the Kavi (poet) I am asura have it your way. Do you accept Shiva Gita of the Puran? No one off Sakracharya followers would accept this. I have no doubt Buddha is mentioned in Purana, but I doubt very much your simplistic version is accepted by those who follow him, some even contend the Buddha of Puran is not the same as Gautam Budh. What? You want have any argument from me over this. Very important part of Vedic dharma take that out and we have society of cats and dogs. That is no reason to dilute the top most order of Vedic way of life the Sanyasi is not for any Tom Dick or Harry. Where did I say this Truth would come out in the end with or without westerners, considering they spread the lies in the first place. Ask any Madhvacharya followers. Care to give any quotes. This is one vary exceptional case and this he achieved after thousand of years. They were never called Kshatriyya, infect Dronacarya’s son Asvasthama having killed the Pandava’s son even then Dropadi referred to him as Brahmin. Even after seeing the Lord in his Virat rup Arjun is calling Karan, the Sut putra even though he is a great warrior. Birth is one’s pahechan there is no escaping that but a noble person is Dhira not disturbed by all this, one’s job is to know the truth and in pursuit of this there is no loss, if I fail than there will be a better chance later. Death is a great leveller. Gita chapter one, The everlasting qualities of Varna and family traditions of those who destroy their family are ruined by the sinful act of illegitimacy. (1.43) This is one clear indication of birth varna connection. We have been told, O Krishna, that people whose family traditions are destroyed necessarily dwell in hell for a long time. (1.44) Now Arjun was worried about kula dharma what would that be I ask? Because some of you may have us believe it could be any number of four. He was born off Parasarmuni, one’s gotra is always known by the fathers. Very good and this is suppose to prove your point yes Formal if he keeps up then my Pranam and all good wishes but I have seen much too often the falling from grace, what was the word they used, oh yes, spaced out. The later is a product of poverty, if he is earning his keep honestly and does not neglect his dharma then he surely will have chance to progress, if not he would have wasted his good karma and regress in to lower form of life. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Not really my response was to your quote and I quote again Do you still maintain those four places did not exist, I can rally go on. Lets not get bogged down by the child’s opinion of the king, his duties and his place. Fact is the boy heard of his fathers distress, what could be the fathers distress? That is under question not boys opinion. So lets consider what that might be, and how he possibly come to hear off it, Known facts, the king approached the hermitage in the hope to quench his thirst, saw the rishi in medition, having had no response the king places a dead snake on the body of the sage. So we have two possible answer a) there was some one there who witness all and was able to relay that information to the boy. In that case why did the king not approach that person. Further more there no suggestion that there was any one there. B) someone came by after the event and saw the sage, with the snake on him and that is all he could relay to the boy. I agree if you cared to read my first response I said the punishment did not fit the crime How this exempt him from his act is beyond me, but you can have it, does not matter. While you at it why don’t you call Lord Shiva atheist or asura, he is for ever helping who ever worship him, even asuras. Sukracharya is not an atheist unless you can bring a sastric proof don’t go there. Who so ever can recognize the Lord are more the in mode of goodness they are blessed. Lets face it we were not, at least not me, talking about this various asuras. Balimaharaj had no boons from any deva, he was guided by Sukracharya an atheist by your defination, so Brahispati and Indra were faced by weaker asura again your defination and lost end off. Are you going to back this up with any Vedic ref.? all of this is your opinion may be excepted within your group, no Buddhist, or followers of Sankracharya would believe this. Lord Vishnu’s supremacy is not under question here. Care to explain where this so called fake brahmanas popped up from, were they more powerful then those four sampradaya? Did you know Sankracharya, Madhvachaya and company actually believed in Varna by birth? I have been associated with Iskcon for over thirty years, I have witness lies, extortion of money from unsuspecting Hindus, I have seen Tirthpada, Bhagvan, Vipramukhi and company fall. to think that I use to bow down to them, wana make me puke. In other words he either did not know their varna or he knew but still went ahead in the hope that they may reform, no wonder it spells disaster. As far as I know the varna is for life time. Krishna warns about keeping to ones duty, it is not as if I shell try one thing today and if it fails take up something else. We can give any tom dick and harry sanyas in order that people in India would take them seriously, wow do you know what you are saying? I give up. Now you confirm what I suspected all along, worship of deva that bother you. Your assessment of BG.20 is so faulty and bias to say the least. The words spoken by Lord Krishna are more appropriately translated: “Those whose wisdom has been carried away by various desires, being prompted by theirown nature, worship other Deities, adopting rules relating to each. On other hand this what Krishna says Brahmaa, the creator, in the beginning created human beings together with Yajna andsaid: By Yajna you shall prosper and Yajna shall fulfill all your desires. (3.10) Nourish the Devas with Yajna, and the Devas will nourish you. Thus nourishing one another you shall attain the Supreme goal. (3.11) Men in the mode of goodness worship the devas; those in the mode of passion worshipthe demons; and those in the mode of ignorance worship ghosts and spirits. (17.4) The worship of Devas, Braahmana, guru, and the wise; purity, honesty, celibacy, and nonviolence; these are said to be the austerity of deed. (17.14) Now this is not a subject under discussion but it is your deep rooted problem of worship of devas that betrays your objection of Verna system for which you have no clue how to establish or recognize, a job I would think best suited to Dharmaraj who would know karma and desire of a given soul and place them in the appropriate varna. Unless of course if you think there is no guna and karma involved in a persons birth and everything is a random selection. You claimed to come from Brahma Goudia Madhva sampradaya and Madhvachrya accepted varna by birth, so you don’t really have a leg to stand on. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam What nonsense, you are living in a cloud cookoo land, Maharaj Youdhistir gambled his wife, Ajamil got involved with prostitute, should I go on. What? I don’t get it. Gold is something people get mad about. I never said brahmana boy was wearing gold, it was the king who was wearing gold in his crown. Why would such a noble king behave so badly against the Samik rishi, if not but the influence of kali. There was no reason other then that, had Pariksit Maharaj not acted as he did he would have no reason to do anything. I am dumfounded by this logic, I am lost for words, even today if you went to an Indian house first thing normally offered is water. Bhagvat clearly says the boy got angry because he heard of his fathers distress SB 1.18.32: The sage had a son who was very powerful, being a Brahmana,s son. While he was playing with inexperienced boys, he heard of his father's distress, which was occasioned by the King. Then and there the boy spoke as follows. What possible other distress did the father have? You are letting your imegination running head of you. There could not be any reason other then the child’s hearing of his father distress. following verses are child’s opinion of what a kings duty is towards the kingdom and in particular to a Rishi. Perhaps you can tell us with your wild imagination what was the ground of the boy hearing about his fathers distress? what was the distress? Please be reasonable, give this little balak (child) some credit, no one would begrudge someone a little water, beside such a scenario would not have any ground for any distress, remember all this time the Samik rishi is in trance. Sure that is why Pariksit Maharaj felt remorse, do you want me to quote the verse again? Gold was surely on Pariksit Maharaj head, perhaps I am not explaining this properly or simply you are not reading what I wrote. don’t make me Lough, if he was atheist why would he have gods on his side. The son of brigu top most amongst sages, who went to study Vedas. Infect Krishna says I am Kavi amongst Ussana (Sukracarya). You have no idea what you talk about, only reason he joined asuras was because of his dislike of favouritism, Brihspati the priest of Deva received from his father. He recognised Lord Vishnu as soon he saw him, hardly a symptom for some who is in mode of ignorance. Hardly unless of course if you think Brahspati or Indra did not have anybody on their side. Lets not make this Shiva V Vishnu duel, fact of the matter was that assura's were stronger at the time. No fault of Brahmana Brahspati and this is the point it was no fault of Brahmana cast or otherwise for the fall of India, they were simply faced with adversary far brutal and stronger against the satriyas King made week, by the influence of Jain and Buddist ahimsa doctrine. If everything that’s been said on this board is believed, Prabhupad gave Sanyas to unworthy character knowingly, then the foundation was shaky from the start. Lets face it the experiment failed miserably. Here you betray your real objection, nothing to do with castist, just check what you list as Acharya, all of them Vaisnava and off course you would pay lip service to Sankaracarya (there is no escaping that). All the others, who worshiped other then Lord Vishnu are to blame, yes. But you loose all your arguments simply because most if not all the Acharya you have listed, actually believed in varna by birth including Tulsidas Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam You want to check your facts before you make such ridiculous statement neither Lord Brahma or Lord Shiva had anything to do with it, it was the result of Brahman Sukrachariya descendant of Brighu Muni, siding with asura, funny how a brahmana siding with asura can still be called Brahman! Neither was Bali Maharaj so your point is mute. Muslims were brutal, they were repulsed many times, each time they were spared instead of giving appropriate punishment they were freed to come back and fight another day. There is a lesson to learn here just as Pariksit Maharaj let the kali free this kings did the same with Muslims. Each time Brahmana gets the blame, you are really something, instead of giving praise to them for keeping and maintaining the Dharama against all the odds you are insulting them. You should read up on history how brutal the Muslims were. Yet when Brits came they were astounded by the piety and culture of India. And only way they broke the backbone of Bharat was by spreading false propagandas about our Dharma and Brahmana in particular and sad part is you are still taking that bait to malign us. Just think is there one country out there where Muslims or British ruled and survived their region intact? I leave that for you to decide, you guys are very good at apportioning blame twisting all logical reasoning, I was only using your yard stick. You are right our scripture are littered with wars, there always been struggle with forces of evil against the good. Some of us prefer to concentrate on dharma, you are welcome to blame the brahmanas without any evidence, and believe the propaganda spread by the British. It never would have been possible but for people like you believing those lies spread by Brits, they attacked the very fabric of our society, the varna system, and people like you fell for it. If varna system was so bad why do you think your guru wanted to establish it, but failed. First think the culture would not have existed if the brahmanas were fake. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam What evidence, opinions and purport does not prove anything especially when it is so biased. As we learn from Bhagvat, kali appeared as soon as Lord Krishna left the earth. King Pariksit failed to deal with him instead allowed him four places to reside as well as in gold, which proved to be fatal, kali took resident in his gold Mukat, Kali did his job and Pariksit Maharaj acted in a way not fit for a King which he later regrated as thus; Sri Suta Gosvāmī said: While returning home, the King [Maharaj Pariksit] felt that the act he had committed against the faultless and powerful Brahmana was heinous and uncivilized. Consequently he was distressed. SB1.19.1: Pariksit Maharaj who is always protected by Lord Vishnu, but he accepted his fate happily upon hearing the brahmanas curse, he went on the banks of Mother Ganga ready to die. We may argue thus that the curse actually became blessing in disguise as Pariksit Maharaj received nectar from a Brahmana Sukdev Goswami, in the form of Bhagvat katha. Since then the Bhagvat has become a source of inspiration for millions. It would be foolish for me to conclude that the Bhagvat puran is a result of brahmanas curse or the kalis appearance as a result of it, since both were present before the event. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam kaisersose I wish I could, but hey if they keep up like this it want be long before they self destruct. They are doing a fine job tearing each other apart. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam And again by So would you say Brihaspati rishi was incompetent for allowing defeat of devas and let asuras rule the heaven. Answer yes or no, your evidence is very watertight. Can we take it from this, using the same yardstick the countless fall down in Iskcon of so called Sanyasi never mind the average Joe, to be attributed to the leader? Perhaps you can list some of the countless war that might have happened because of Brahmans at the head of society, or are you just stating this of your own whim. Funny how the British found us before they ruled us even that under Muslim period and I quote, for your unbiased appraisal. It was February 1835, a time when the British were striving to take control of the whole of India. Lord Macaulay, a historian and a politician, made a historical speech in the British Parliament, commonly referred to as The Minutes, which struck a blow at the centuries old system of Indian education. His words were to this effect: I have travelled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief. Such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such calibre, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage, and, therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self-esteem, their native self-culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation. Note; all this under the occupation of brutal regime whose sole goal was to destroy our Dharma. I fill utterly repugnant by these so called followers of sanatan dharma, who are always eager to heap insult to our ancestors, who gave their blood, and under all odds kept the Dharma alive. These guys have no shame, take our money by false pretence and through it back in our face. Dharma is under threat and this time from those who are masquerading as devotees, those who want to justify, under the guise of following Vedic dharma, things like guy marriages, making money by deception, sanyasis adopting life style more suited to CEO of big corporate, Selling Vedic knowledge to maintain those life style. That is not to say there are no pious followers out there but would they insult us like some of you have? Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam This was quoted in another thread. This is a ridiculous statement to put it mildly, even though I must agree brahman’s son was over the top to curse the unknown person who had actually insulted his father by putting a dead snake on his neck. Kali had already made his mark when The king saw him beating the cow, so why the blame on Brahmana? The blame goes squarely on Pariksit Maharaj for letting the Kali free, instead he allowed him few places to reside and one of them was gold. Would he have insulted the Brahman who was in meditation the way he did, if not for the influence of kali residing in his crown jewel? He realised this mistake as soon as he took his mukat off, by then it was all too late . History will tell us many reasons for the brutal invaders to succeed, even after repeated defeats and I think one of the reason was the influence of Jain and Buddhist ahimsa that allowed the invaders eventually to take hold. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail. (8.06) Such a yogi is born in a family of wise transcendentalists. A birth like this is very difficult, indeed, to obtain in this world. (6.42) After taking such a birth, O Arjuna, one regains the knowledge acquired in the previous life, and strives again to achieve perfection. (6.43) Now, either we accept that the Lord who ordained the four varna, made a perfect system based on Guna Karma, executed perfectly by Yamraj, where if not, after death, and a new beginning, place a soul in its aproprait varna without any ambiguity. Or we accept that birth is random, Guna Karma does not come in to the equestion and therefore birth has no significane in determining ones varna. And question here arises who would decide and at what point, considering the training takes place at a very early age. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Take the essence I say, parampara is what’s handed down from time in memorial from guru to sisya and the whole Vedic tradition has grown and thus we have a vibrant colourful culture, all 4 varans abide in it and lived in harmony, first the Muslims then the Christians did their best to break us down yet we survived, what we don’t really need to do is internally combust. Sampradaya I have no time for, in my observation I have noticed, a great deal of time and effort, in the guise of seva, is spent on upkeep and betterment of such institute so that a lot of people can have a nice cosy life style, many a times actual dharma takes a secondary place, at times undharmic practice is justified in the name of Krishna or God. Dharma can not be confined to any institute, it would get stifle, the soul can never be happy shackled, confined to boundaries of an institute. Krishna says Parampara and not sampradaya. Jai Shree Krishna

How very convenient all the time Hindus have to put up with these quotes like not bonafide acharya or not authorized Sampradaya, and therefore great personalities like Mira, Tulsidas, Narshimehta, Jalarambapu and the list goes on, are scorned upon And now that ones own sampradaya comes in to question suddenly it does not matter. Great debating I say where everyone is a winner but Dharma. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Not so fast, read Bhagvatam SB 8.7.20: The devas observed Lord Siva sitting on the summit of kailasa Hill with his wife, Bhavani, for the auspicious development of the three worlds. He was being worshiped by great saintly persons desiring liberation. The devas offered him their obeisance’s and prayers with great respect. SB 4.6/45 O most auspicious lord, you have ordained the heavenly planets, the spiritual Vaikuntha planets and the impersonal Brahman sphere as the respective destinations of the performers of auspicious activities. Similarly, for others, who are miscreants, you have destined different kinds of hells which are horrible and ghastly. Yet sometimes it is found that their destinations are just the opposite. It is very difficult to ascertain the cause of this. What to speak of Veda Rig Veda 7.59.12 Maha Mrituyonjaya Mantra We Worship Tryambaka, Who spreads Fragrance and Increases nourishment, May He release me, like the cucumber from its stem, from Mortal life, and give me Immorality. Lord Shiva is very merciful he accepts all. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Atanu ji Glad to see you are posting here again. I like to think not only some purports but the very use of the word Demigod for devas as half or semi, is a recent concoction and has no place in sanatan dharma period. And when you have a translation as below one has to wonder why such deliberate mistranslation. antavat tu phalam tesam tad bhavaty alpa-medhasam devan deva-yajo yanti mad-bhakta yanti mam api "Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet." (Bhagavad-Gita 7.23) Now compare most other translation which most near to what Krishna is saying in Bhagvat Gita Such (material) gains of these less intelligent human beings are temporary. The worshipers of Devas go to Devas, but My devotees come to Me. (7.23) If you want to see the absurdity of the translation as given in so called as it is see what lord Krishna says Nourish the Devas with Yajna, and the Devas will nourish you. Thus nourishing one another you shall attain the Supreme goal. (3.11) Men in the mode of goodness worship the devas; those in the mode of passion worshipthe demons; and those in the mode of ignorance worship ghosts and spirits. (17.4) The worship of Devas, Braahmana, guru, and the wise; purity, honesty, celibacy, and nonviolence; these are said to be the austerity of deed. (17.14) Jai Shree Krishna

Do I care about your translation, time to get out of this kindergarten mentality Oh really, is anyone talking about Eko truth other then Brahman? Not only names like Rudra, Indra Chandra Vishnu, Narayan but all this forms belong to Brahman. Gibberish, these are your opinion, I don’t buy in to it. What is it are this verses getting to you? Who said anything about abode of Brahma giving moksa, it stand to reason if the abode is in material world it will be destroyed and why would you think worshipers of devas will go anywhere else other then who they worship. Where have I brought my interpretation, see what Arjun is saying, you cant even read what was quoted Bg11.39 go figure not my sloka, if you have problem with Vedanta take it up with Arjun. You can shout from roof top makes no difference and I don’t care for your opinions. Opinion Ask Arjun. Then they said to Indra, "O giver of wealth, find this out, what this spirit is.So be it." He hurried toward it. It disappeared from before him. In the same region of the sky, he came across a very beautiful woman, Uma, the daughter of the snowy mountains. He asked her, "What is this spirit?" So Uma knows it, who is this Uma pati.? No, no I did not say that, don’t put words in my mouth. Shiva is Maheshvara so much so that when I used maheshvara as an adjective you could not help equate that to Shiva. Point was, Lord Krishna is saying hardly anyone knows him in truth, yet here you are making all kind of interpretation limiting his unlimited form and functions. Did you ever wonder why Arjun would ask him how may I worship you in your various forms? First I do not accept your version of sat path bramana hence there is no birth of Lord Shiva that aside we can say the same for Lord Vishnu, who is described as mere sun deity or a younger brother of Indra or sat path barmana mentions his head being severed by bow. I know you will give us your opinion and that is just that opinion. facts are given in Vedas and if it says Shiva is supreme I have no arguments period. Hey, I don’t have to look beyond Tulsidas Goswami or Sridhar swami never mind a Shaivite. Yes in gist of clarification you never fail a trick to make your un Vedic judgement on Lord Shiva, other then that I would not bother with likes of you. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Oh yes we will except every thing we like and reject everything else because it clashes with srutis, well that is your problem but srutis it self says Ekam sad, vipra bahudha vadanti - RSi dirghatamas, Rig Veda I.164.46 truth is one, sages call it variously. Lord Krishna says I am Shankara, Arjun says you are Vaayu, Yama, Agni, Varuna, Shashaanka, and Brahmaa as well as the father of Brahmaa. Salutations to You a thousand times, and again and again salutations to You. (11.39) For me there is no contradiction, only thing that remains is to realise the truth following Dharma that is the paramount importance. So pardon me for not accepting your opinion. You are so caught up in your superiority concept that you fail to see I used small later in mahesvara. I agree and you are free to worship Lord Vishnu, just don’t bring your interpretations to prove your point of view and making Lord Shiva a jiva. Yes keep this thread for mayavad discussion, what ever that means. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Same old same old, not wishing to start a debate but Vaishnav feels happy defeating Shiva using their own standard of measure, all the time making rules that fit in with their interpretation or else the srutis would contradict it self so they say. As if such contradictions can ever be present in Vedas, is nothing sort of admitting that srutis are faulty. Perish the thought. I will accept what it says at face value, hack with opinions and interpretations, just as Lord Krishna says hardly anyone knows me in truth the unborn mahesvara. It is for an individual to realise the Brahman that which is beyond the triguna, to get bogged down in this supremacy contest is like missing the boat. So be happy in your self declared victory meanwhile Lord Shiva’s worship, which is oldest known to mankind will be performed regardless. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam And your point is

Pranam reading from right to left would make me an Arab, that i am not nor am i an expert in grammar but i have read enough to smell a rat. and counting from bottom it is the second line, good i learnt a new technique Jai Shree Krishna

Praam bhaktajan Let me try and explain anta-vat-perishable; tu-but; phalam-fruit; teñäm-their; / tat-that; bhavati-becomes; alpa-medhasäm-of those of small intelligence; Do you see the word Deva or worship in this two line? I certainly can not How do you get Men of small intelligence worship the demigods? Now see the translation I provide Such (material) gains of these less intelligent human beings are temporary. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Precisely, and the translation is certainly flawed, yet i dont expect them to understand, for them as it is can not be wrong. Repeat a lie enough time and people will believe it, Vedic gods have become half God, although no such concept in Vedas. Devas have become pariah. Printing and selling books (Shastra ) are a sign of spiritual progress, forget about following dharma(that would be walking on a double edge sword) anything goes in the name of Krishna, we will make lots of money fleecing those ignorant Hindus, anyone for that gravy train ? oh yes sounds good to me but then the reality dawns on me I will have to pay for it in the end. Jai Shree Krishna