atanu

---shiva is a state of monoism .....the scriptures say that there is no such thing as shiva and soul for where there is a soul shiva is not and where there is shiva there is no soul(duality ie the difference between the perciever and the percieved is lost)...it is the state of advaitic moksh or buddhist nirvana........it is beyond duality .....of existance and non existance............it is in this context that the statement (EKAM BHARM DWITIYA NASTI........is to be understood ..........EKAM BHRAM...ETC......DOES NOT MEAN THERE IS ONE GOD ...........IT MEANS THERE IS ONLY "ONE".......call this "ONE" as god or bhram or parabhram or WHATEVER.........but where this "ONE" exists there is no other .........

 

---

Namaskar,

Nicely said. Shiva is the substratum, where there is no dvittiya. Shivoadvaitamatama. ONE who never slumbers.

Om

Hi

 

From what i have read, one must understand the 'oneness' of Shiv and Narayan. The reason for this is because Shiv is one if not the biggest devotee of Narayan. Therefore, in our humanly eyes, we would not be able to see any differences between the two.

 

Jay Shree Swaminarayan

Jay NarNArayan

So those who see difference have divine eyes -- such as you have?

And I fail to understand why being a devotee makes one the same as the other to the human eyes? You must be using very evolved logic which escapes me.

That Atman primarily refers to Brahman is stated clearly in numerous statements of Sruti and is accepted by all Vedanta traditions including advaita. If that were not so then the Chandogya statement on which advaita is based "saAtmAtattvamasi" would mean you are the individual, an obvious statement and hardly anything to do with advaita.

 

 

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull; bountiful through the sacrifice; heavenly through the sacrificial fee; slayer of enemies through rage; supporter of the body through kindliness; wealth through food; through the earth he hath won; (thou art) eater of food with verses; increased by the Vasat cry; protector of the body through the Saman; full of light with the Viraj; drinker of Soma through the holy power; with cows he supporteth the sacrifice; with lordly power men; with horse and car bearer of the bolt; lord with the seasons; enclosing with the year; unassailable through penance; the sun with bodies.”

YV iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) Prajapati in mind, when come to the Soma; the creator in the consecration; Savitr in the bearing; Pusan in the cow for the purchase of the Soma; Varuna when bound (in the cloth); Asura in the being bought;Mitra when purchased; Çipivista when put in place;delighter of men when being drawn forward; the overlord on arrival;Prajapati being led on; Agni at the Agnidh’s altar; Brhaspati on being led from the Agnidh’s altar; Indra at the oblation-holder; Aditi when put in place; Visnu when being taken down; Atharvan when made wet; Yama when pressed out; drinker of unpurified (Soma) when being cleansed; Vayu when purifying; Mitra as mixed with milk; the Manthin when mixed with groats; that of the All-gods when taken out; Rudra when offered; Vayu when covered up; the gazer on men when revealed;the food when it comes; the famed of the fathers;life when taken; the river when going to the final bath; the ocean when gone; the water when dipped;the heaven when arrived at completion.

End of citation.

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull; ------- unassailable through penance; the sun with bodies.”

YV iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) Prajapati in mind-----

Çipivista when put in place;-----

Aditi when put in place;

Visnu when being taken down; -----

Rudra when offered; -----

the heaven when arrived at completion.

End of citation.

 

 

 

If you do not want to understand this verse or just try to mislead others then it is your problem not mine. This verse is referring to the Soma used in yajnas as sacrificial offering, and through yajna it brings the devatas to us.

 

That Vishnu is unborn has already been shown using various srutis, which simply shows that you do not care for sruti rather are just trying to search support for your position.

 

You should know that even you are not born. Actually it is you who do not care for shruti. The verse says father of the earth, father of heaven. Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the father who begat Indra and Vishnu. What remains? Where from the yajmana is coming? Where the yagna is starting? If the earth, sun, heaven are not there where is the yajman?

For your hint: Soma is auspicious energy. He is Adiatma. He is Adiagnya (All from Rig Veda). It is you who is blinded by ego and refuse to see and think properly. This is aclled tamas. You are engrossed in ego since you do not even care to go through the verse of Yajur veda which I had cited.

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull; ---------.”

YV iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) Prajapati in mind, when come to the Soma; the creator in the consecration; ------Çipivista when put in place;----- Aditi when put in place; Visnu when being taken down; ----- Rudra when offered; -----the heaven when arrived at completion.

Om Namah Shivayya

tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n

ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .

patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-

vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h

Om Namah Shivayya

Is this the way you deal with objections to your (or whoever else's) interpretations? Anyway, as already explained turiya in mandukya refers to the fourth "pada" of Brahman.

[\quote]

 

 

Do not claim. Read Mandykya again. The fourth pada Turiya is the Self.

 

"Turiya is the Self" and "This Self is Brahman".

 

 

One has to realise that Self is Brahma yoni.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh Oh. Dear please apply the same noble thoughts to the so-called birth of Shulapani from narayana's tapas.

 

 

 

 

The I is Shiva. Only that much can be said. Rest, none knows what Shiva is not. Narayana knows Him alone.

 

 

 

tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n

 

ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .

patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-

 

 

 

vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h

 

 

 

 

Om Namah Shivayya

 

This truly is a revelation to me.

Let there be unity all around

<HR style="COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by sumedh

I never said that consciousness is imagination; the reference was to the interpretation that Narayana and Rudra are not Beings but refer to "infinite consciousness"; that the "Puranic concepts" of Narayana/Rudra refer to "shivoadvaitam" etc.

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That is precisely your problem dear Sumedh. You are a lover of God, no doubt, but you are an immature one. You have taken the Puranic concepts as the truth. The concepts are like addrresses to the home but not the home. The truth is beyond description and Paratpara.

When you say among devatas Vishnu is highest and Agni is lowest, you automatically demean both Vishnu and Agni -- though ignorantly and definitely with love for Vishnu. Vishnu -- Vasudeva is all. Agni -- is all. All these are infinite expressions of ONE SELF. Vishnu is infinite Self -- how can you compare that to another. And how can you even try to demean Agni by comparison. He is the Purohit. He takes all our prayers and oblations to whichever deity we wish to reach.

Anyway Sumedh. I have no time for these discussions and I am withdrawing on this Vijaya Dashami day -- with two verses from Yajur Veda as my intangible gift to you and other readers of this forum. Hope these two verses will bring illumination someday.

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull; bountiful through the sacrifice; heavenly through the sacrificial fee; slayer of enemies through rage; supporter of the body through kindliness; wealth through food; through the earth he hath won; (thou art) eater of food with verses; increased by the Vasat cry; protector of the body through the Saman; full of light with the Viraj; drinker of Soma through the holy power; with cows he supporteth the sacrifice; with lordly power men; with horse and car bearer of the bolt; lord with the seasons; enclosing with the year; unassailable through penance; the sun with bodies.”

YV iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) Prajapati in mind, when come to the Soma; the creator in the consecration; Savitr in the bearing; Pusan in the cow for the purchase of the Soma; Varuna when bound (in the cloth); Asura in the being bought;Mitra when purchased; Çipivista when put in place;delighter of men when being drawn forward; the overlord on arrival;Prajapati being led on; Agni at the Agnidh’s altar; Brhaspati on being led from the Agnidh’s altar; Indra at the oblation-holder; Aditi when put in place; Visnu when being taken down; Atharvan when made wet; Yama when pressed out; drinker of unpurified (Soma) when being cleansed; Vayu when purifying; Mitra as mixed with milk; the Manthin when mixed with groats; that of the All-gods when taken out; Rudra when offered; Vayu when covered up; the gazer on men when revealed;the food when it comes; the famed of the fathers;life when taken; the river when going to the final bath; the ocean when gone; the water when dipped;the heaven when arrived at completion.

End of citation.

The one who says "I" in everyone -- is he with a form or is he formless? Is He manifest or is he unmanifest? That "I", when manifest in full is all pervading Vishnu. That same "I" when offered worship is Rudra.

Please read these verses. One day the realisation will dawn that the being who is aware as the real "I" in you is the SELF. He is the seeing/seer/seen. These divisions as so called tattwas is for understanding and realising the ONE indescribale truth alone.

Om Namoh Vasudevayya

Om Durge Namah

Om Namah Shivayya

 

I never said that consciousness is imagination; the reference was to the interpretation that Narayana and Rudra are not Beings but refer to "infinite consciousness"; that the "Puranic concepts" of Narayana/Rudra refer to "shivoadvaitam" etc.

That is precisely your problem dear Sumedh. You are a lover of God, no doubt, but you are an immature one. You have taken the Puranic concepts as the truth. The concepts are like addrresses to the home but not the home. The truth is beyond description and Paratpara.

When you say among devatas Vishnu is highest and Agni is lowest, you automatically demean both Vishnu and Agni -- though ignorantly and definitely with love for Vishnu. Vishnu -- Vasudeva is all. Agni -- is all. All these are infinite expressions of ONE SELF. Vishnu is infinite Self -- how can you compare that to another. And how can you even try to demean Agni by comparison. He is the Purohit. He takes all our prayers and oblations to whichever deity we wish to reach.

Anyway Sumedh. I have no time for these discussions and I am withdrawing on this Vijaya Dashami day -- with two verses from Yajur Veda as my intangible gift to you and other readers of this forum. Hope these two verses will bring illumination someday.

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull; bountiful through the sacrifice; heavenly through the sacrificial fee; slayer of enemies through rage; supporter of the body through kindliness; wealth through food; through the earth he hath won; (thou art) eater of food with verses; increased by the Vasat cry; protector of the body through the Saman; full of light with the Viraj; drinker of Soma through the holy power; with cows he supporteth the sacrifice; with lordly power men; with horse and car bearer of the bolt; lord with the seasons; enclosing with the year; unassailable through penance; the sun with bodies.”

YV iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) Prajapati in mind, when come to the Soma; the creator in the consecration; Savitr in the bearing; Pusan in the cow for the purchase of the Soma; Varuna when bound (in the cloth); Asura in the being bought;Mitra when purchased; Çipivista when put in place;delighter of men when being drawn forward; the overlord on arrival;Prajapati being led on; Agni at the Agnidh’s altar; Brhaspati on being led from the Agnidh’s altar; Indra at the oblation-holder; Aditi when put in place; Visnu when being taken down; Atharvan when made wet; Yama when pressed out; drinker of unpurified (Soma) when being cleansed; Vayu when purifying; Mitra as mixed with milk; the Manthin when mixed with groats; that of the All-gods when taken out; Rudra when offered; Vayu when covered up; the gazer on men when revealed;the food when it comes; the famed of the fathers;life when taken; the river when going to the final bath; the ocean when gone; the water when dipped;the heaven when arrived at completion.

End of citation.

The one who says "I" in everyone -- is he with a form or is he formless? Is He manifest or is he unmanifest? That "I", when manifest in full is all pervading Vishnu. That same "I" when offered worship is Rudra.

Please read these verses. One day the realisation will dawn that the being who is aware as the real "I" in you is the SELF. He is the seeing/seer/seen. These divisions as so called tattwas is for understanding and realising the ONE indescribale truth alone.

Om Namoh Vasudevayya

Om Durge Namah

Om Namah Shivayya

 

The supposed reference from Mandukya Upanishad has already been elaborately dealt with by the acharyas. In this context the following points may be noted:

* That the primary meaning of Atma actually is Brahman. This is supported by Shankaracharya himself in Brahma sutra 1.1.3 quoting from Mundaka Upanishad.

* Mandukya says that Atma has four quarters (chatuShpAt) thus referring to the chatur-vyuh manifestation of Lord Narayana, and not to four states of existence.

------

Read mandyuka. Turiya is the Self. Do not imagine the fifth pada beyond.

Which apart from dramatism does nothing to address the verse at hand in which the sage asks Rudra to praise the Deity seated in the heart.

Some people do not bend but they will break. What I cited earlier was from Rig Veda, translated as per Sayana for the sarawswati project. So, you now want to say that your mis-translation is correct:

Stu/ih ïu/t< g?tR/sd</ font>< Æum! %?ph mm! -I n g< m& yuva?nm!>%/¢m! ,m&/¦a j?ir/Çe é?Ô/ Stva?nae =/Ny< te? A/Smn! in v?pNtu/ sena>? . 2-033-11

<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

2.033.11 Glorify the renowned Rudra, riding in his car, ever youthful, destructive, fierce like a formidable wild beast; Rudra, propitiated by praise, grant happiness to him who praises (you), and let your hosts destroy him who is our adversary.

I repeat: The verse in Rig Veda is an Eulogy to Rudra. Same verse appears in Yajur Veda also.

Again your interpretation out of the blue of "Vishnu being Rudra's arrow" (apparently from tripurasura episode) is incorrect on account of "vide hi" which says that "knowing this" i.e. only knowing that Vishnu is the ishwara does Rudra gain his rudratva.

The Saraswayti project translation has been cited by me previouisly and like all your motivated translation this translation of yours is also simply wrong.

---

Interesting theory, however the sruti says "NArAyaNAya vidmahE VAsudEvAya dheemahi. TannO VishNuH prachOdayAt". That Vishnu is unborn is known on the strength of several pramanas like TaittirIya Arayaka(3.13.1):

 

Yes. May Vishnu impel us to know Narayana.

The purusha sUkta also talks of the Supreme Being who has Hri and Sri as the wives and who are known to be wives of Vishnu from sruti: "dEvIm VishNupatnIm ajUryAm" and "MahIm asyEsAnA jagatO VishNu patnI". The already cited Aitareya Brahmana (1.1.1) "agnirvai devaanamavamo viShNuH paramaH" says the same thing as also "te viSNo jAyamAno na jAto deva mahimnaH param antam Apa" (Rg Veda 7.99.2).

 

Of course, there are innumerable smriti pramanas for this.

 

 

Oh Oh.

Purusha sukta in Rig Samhita does not say anything of the sort. It is there in Uttara Anuvuka, wherein, it refers to Hiryanagarbha. And Hiryanagarbha is born of Rudra -- the Supreme seer.

As for "agnirvai devaanamavamo viShNuH paramaH", itself indicates that among Devatas Vishnu is parama.

I am talking of paratpara.

Give us one shruti showing Param Parastad for any oother being.

Rig Veda 9

saem>? pvte jin/ta m?tI/na< j?in/ta id/vae j?in/ta p&?iw/Vya> ,

j/in/ta¶erœ j?in/ta sUyR?Sy jin/teNÔ?Sy jin/taet iv:[ae>? . 9- 096- 05

Sama Veda XIX Soma Pavamana

1. Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward, the father of the earth, father of heaven.Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the father who begat Indra and Vishnu.

Param Atma has no progenitor. I am sorry. And as you have yourself said: Vishnu is Self born.The Self is Turiya --- shivoadvaitam.

<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

Svet. Up,

4.18 yadaa.atamastaanna divaa na raatriH

na sannachaasachchhiva eva kevalaH .

tadaxara.n tat.h saviturvareNyaM

praGYaa cha tasmaat.h prasR^itaa puraaNii .. 18

4.18. When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva (the blessed) alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient praGYaa proceeded thence.

6.7 tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n

ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .

patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-

vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7..

6.7 WE WILL KNOW THIS MIGHTIEST ONE WHO IS FAR ABOVE ALL THE MIGHTY – THIS SUMMIT OF THE GODS AND THEIR GODHEAD, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, WHO TOWERETH HIGH ABOVE ALL SUMMIT AND GREATNESSES. LET US LEARN OF GOD FOR HE IS THIS UNIVERSES' MASTER AND ALL SHALL ADORE HIM.

 

 

Show us one verse from Samhitas that Param Parastad is used for any other deity.

From Yajur Veda

Salutations to Him who is in hridayyaya and in the grace.

Hari Aum,

 

Aum Nama Shivaya,

 

If you have read the Shatapata Brahmana verses properly, you will not get confused like this.

 

Show us the verses and we will see the context. I wonder how a child says that I am born of sin.

Then if "Eko Rudro Dvittiya na tasthu" refers to Narayana alone then the sins of so-called Rudra also belongs to Narayana. You understand. I have doubt that you understand implications of what you write, since your intellect is surely clogged on account of hatred. You also do not see Rig Veda verses that Brahma is not the father but Rudra is the father. Brahma is the name the creative force in pure consciouness called Rudra.

RV10.061.05 (Rudra), the benefactor of man, whose eager, virile energy was developed, drew it back when disseminated (for the generation of offfspring); again the irresistible (Rudra) concentrates (the energy) which was communicated to his maiden daughter.

RV 10.061.06 When the deed was done in mid-heaven in the proximity of the father working his will, and the daughter coming together, they let the seed fall slightly; it was poured upon the high place of sacrifice.

RV 10.061.07 When the father united with the daughter, then associating with the earth, he sprinkled it with the effusion; then the thoughtful gods begot Brahma; they fabricated the lord of the hearth (of sacrifice); the defender of sacred rites

Brahma is a mental concept of Devas and so is Brahmanspati. There is none other than one EKO RUDRA.

prakR^itiH sA parA mahyaM rodasI yogadhAriNI

R^itA satyAmarAjayyA lokAnAmAtmasa~nj~nitA

tasmAtsarvAH pravartante sarga pralaya vikriyAH

Everything; creation, destruction and all other changes; arises out of the Prakriti (Lakshmi), Who is the wife of Narayana. [Among all dependent beings], she is the most knowledgeable, effulgent, powerful and victorious. She does all this with my grace and she is known as "AtmA" of the entire universe [after Paramatma] (as she appoints and manages Brahma, Rudra and other deities as per the command of the Lord).

You have inserted “ ---as she appoints and manages Brahma, Rudra and other deities as per the command of the Lord”, on your own. Rodasi is consort of Rudra who accompanies Maruts always. All your posts are examples of bigotry and good that these are on the net.

ahamAtmA hi lokAnAM vishvAnAM pANDunandana

tasmAdAtmAnamevAgre rudraM sampUjayAmyaham

yadyahaM nArchayeyaM vai IshAnaM varadaM shivam

AtmAnaM nArchayetkashchiditi me bhAvitaM manaH

 

O Son of Pandu, I am, indeed, the Atma, the indweller of this universe and the worlds. Therefore, I worship myself first, even when I worship Rudra. If I did not worship Rudra, the bestower of boons, in such a way (i.e., worshipping the indwelling Lord first), some would not worship me, the

indwelling Lord, at all - this is my opinion.

na hi viShNuH pranamati kasmai chidvibudhAya tu

R^ita AtmAnameveti tato rudraM bhajAmyaham

Indeed Vishnu does not bow to any one and [even when He bows to Himself], for what sake, but for the sake of showing the path to the wise. Therefore, it is the truth that I worship myself even when I worship Rudra.

You should open up and contemplate on the above verse. Everyone worships the indwelling Lord alone, including ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. If Rudra was someone who is different from the indwelling Lord why should <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> worship Rudra at all? Your intellect is clogged due to your hatred. The day you understand the oneness of Vishnu and Rudra your life will be filled with bliss. Till then continue with your childish misrepresentations, which are on net for all to see.

The day the oneness of Rudra (who is neither a non-being nor a being) and Vishnu (being and non-being) is understood then you will know yourself. And you will also say: I worship Rudra since I worship myself.

Since:

Yajur Veda:

From Yajur Veda

Namo hridayyaya cha niveshpya ya cha

Salutations to Him who is in hridayyaya and in the grace.

<?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Namo vah kirikebhyo devanam hrudayou bhyo

Salutations to you who showers grace and who dwell in the hearts of the Gods.

Svet. Up,

4.18 yadaa.atamastaanna divaa na raatriH

na sannachaasachchhiva eva kevalaH .

tadaxara.n tat.h saviturvareNyaM

praGYaa cha tasmaat.h prasR^itaa puraaNii .. 18

4.18. When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva (the blessed) alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient praGYaa proceeded thence.

6.7 tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n

ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .

patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-

vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7..

6.7 WE WILL KNOW THIS MIGHTIEST ONE WHO IS FAR ABOVE ALL THE MIGHTY – THIS SUMMIT OF THE GODS AND THEIR GODHEAD, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, WHO TOWERETH HIGH ABOVE ALL SUMMIT AND GREATNESSES. LET US LEARN OF GOD FOR HE IS THIS UNIVERSES' MASTER AND ALL SHALL ADORE HIM.

Show us one verse from Samhitas that Param Parastad is used for any other deity.

So Atan, you do agree. Good.

Sure. The truth is paratpara. We know.

Hari Aum,

 

Aum Nama Shivaya,

 

If you have read the Shatapata Brahmana verses properly, you will not get confused like this.

 

In Shatapatha Brahmana, BrahmA gives his child names one after another when his child cries and claims to be sinful (anapahatapaapma). -----

Cite the verse and the context fully and we will see.

Hi Raghu Pandit.

I have always admired your brilliant logic. As per you EKO RUDRO DVITTIYA NA TASHTHU refers to Narayana alone. I agree.

So, Narayana must be sinful since He was alone. He gave birth to Brahma from whom sinful Rudra was born.

Sin cannot come from nothing. (And I also keep wondering how a child came to know that it was sinful? Ha. Ha)

And Raghu yoy are just an intolerant hindu whom hinduism can do without, since who needs moslems and christians when hindus like you are around.

You have not seen

RV10.061.05 (Rudra), the benefactor of man, whose eager, virile energy was developed, drew it back when disseminated (for the generation of offfspring); again the irresistible (Rudra) concentrates (the energy) which was communicated to his maiden daughter.

RV 10.061.06 When the deed was done in mid-heaven in the proximity of the father working his will, and the daughter coming together, they let the seed fall slightly; it was poured upon the high place of sacrifice.

RV 10.061.07 When the father united with the daughter, then associating with the earth, he sprinkled it with the effusion; then the thoughtful gods begot Brahma; they fabricated the lord of the hearth (of sacrifice); the defender of sacred rites

Brahma is a mental concept of Devas and so is Brahmanspati. There is none other than one EKO RUDRA who is thousand headed Purusha, Narayana and who is father of Hiryanagarbha. He is the father, the daughter, and the son.

And if you think Vishnu is Narayana then see this:

Rig Veda 9

saem>? pvte jin/ta m?tI/na< j?in/ta id/vae j?in/ta p&?iw/Vya> ,

<?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p>j/in/ta¶erœ j?in/ta sUyR?Sy jin/teNÔ?Sy jin/taet iv:[ae>? . 9- 096- 05

<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward, the father of the earth, father of heaven.Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the father who begat Indra and Vishnu. 9.96.5

Raghu you are a thankless fellow not by your own choice but since you are blinded by gunas. Shiva is supreme sacrifice. It is because of auspiciousness that the universe and you exist. All exist since Shiva drinks the poison of samsara. It is because of bliss soma that we have any reason to exist. You will know the truth as given below but surely with pain.

Svet. Up,

4.18 yadaa.atamastaanna divaa na raatriH

na sannachaasachchhiva eva kevalaH .

tadaxara.n tat.h saviturvareNyaM

praGYaa cha tasmaat.h prasR^itaa puraaNii .. 18

4.18. When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva (the blessed) alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient praGYaa proceeded thence.

6.7 tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n

ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .

patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-

vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7..

6.7 WE WILL KNOW THIS MIGHTIEST ONE WHO IS FAR ABOVE ALL THE MIGHTY – THIS SUMMIT OF THE GODS AND THEIR GODHEAD, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, WHO TOWERETH HIGH ABOVE ALL SUMMIT AND GREATNESSES. LET US LEARN OF GOD FOR HE IS THIS UNIVERSES' MASTER AND ALL SHALL ADORE HIM.

You may show us one shruti where any other diety is said to be param Parastad.

I'm glad someone has posted what the scriptures of Shaivism are. We know about the Vaishnava sects and their scriptures but little about Shaivism. But I think there is one missing in the Upanishad list. The Svetasvatara Upanishad is one of the principal upanishads and is directed to Rudra, an earlier aspect of Shiva, so I think Shaivites would recognise it.

Mandukya Upanishad in a very precise text explains the transcendental Self as shivoadvaitam Turiya. While it remains unchanged, it (the Atma) enjoys the gross objects in the waking and subtle objects in the dream state. This indescribale Atma, which can be known only in identity with it, knows everything through Pragnya -- which is the deep sleep state (shushupti).

While we think that deep sleep is a state of darkness, Chandokhya Upanishad describes it as one full of light. Most upanishads deal with these states as AUM and the Self as OM.

Lord Rama has stated in Muktika Upanishad that reading Mandukya Upanishad is capable of giving illumination. Those interested may try Mandukya Upanishad.

Best wishes to all. Om Namah Shivaaya

When I use the term "servant" it does not make someone less. But it shows their Love for that personality.

 

I am still learning and growing and maybe by the mercy of all Bhaktas (Krsna or Shiva) I may reach my goal of becoming a servant of the servant of my most beloved object of worship Lord Krsna.

 

So I ask for forgiveness if I have offended You or any other devotees.

Wishing You all the Best in your Sadhana

These are all worldly concepts, dear Yogesh. A father serves his children with all his resources. A mother does so. God having provided life, air, water, fire, food etc., is actually the greatest servant to us.

Saying this is no aparadha and I can say it boldly again and again. Those who say that they are serving God are egotists. With what they can serve God? With God's energy? With God's resources? With God's intelligence? What one has that is not from God?

Only a superior can serve and support a weaker one. Maruts, progeny of Rudra, serve everyone, including you. They are your prana and your senses. It is worldly, filmi and egoist concept that one who serves becomes lower. No. No. No. People with worldly mind cannot grasp the significance of scripture.

Take for example, the Maha Upanishad. Narrow minded say: See Naraayana gave birth to Lord Shiva, so Naraayana is greater. They forget that what is not there cannot take birth fresh. Nothing is born out of nothing. All manifestations are of Satya only. Shiva is always within. Narayana having felt lonely and having felt sad meditated for long and then Shiva manifested. Narayana and Shiva are different or same? Shiva represents the best that is in Naraayana, who is the best that is there in me --- the pure awareness -- the Satya. Shiva knowledge is given to us by Naraayana alone. Only Naraayana can make him manifest. Not you or I, until I know Narayaana, Shiva will not be known.

But someday?

Naraayana is Param Braham Tattwa. Rudra is Param Brahman Purusha. And the Self -- the Atma is nameless shivoadvaitam Turiya. It is ONE.

Nrisinhatapini Upanishad

naapraj~na.n na praj~naanaghana madR^ishhTamavyavahaaryamagraahyamalakshaNa\-

machintyamachintyamavyapadeshyamaikaatmyapratyayasaaraM

prapa~nchopashama.n shiva.n shaantamadvaita.n chaturthaM

manyante sa aatmaa sa vij~neya iishvaragraasasturiiyasturiiyaH

eshha sarveshvara eshha sarvaj~na eshho.antaryaamyeshha

yoniH sarvasya prabhavaapyayau hi bhuutaanaa.n

naantaHpraj~na.n na bahiHpraj~na.n nobhayataHpraj~na.n

na praj~na.n naapraj~na.n na praj~naanaghanamadR^ishhTa\-

mavyavahaaryamagraahyamalakshaNamachintyamavyapadeshya\-

maikaatmyapratyayasaaraM prapa~nchopashama.n shaanta.n

shivamadvaita.n chaturthaM manyante sa aatmaa sa vij~neyaH

Svet. Up,

4.18 yadaa.atamastaanna divaa na raatriH

na sannachaasachchhiva eva kevalaH .

tadaxara.n tat.h saviturvareNyaM

praGYaa cha tasmaat.h prasR^itaa puraaNii .. 18

4.18. When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva (the blessed) alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient praGYaa proceeded thence.

6.7 tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n

ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .

patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-

vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7..

6.7 WE WILL KNOW THIS MIGHTIEST ONE WHO IS FAR ABOVE ALL THE MIGHTY – THIS SUMMIT OF THE GODS AND THEIR GODHEAD, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, WHO TOWERETH HIGH ABOVE ALL SUMMIT AND GREATNESSES. LET US LEARN OF GOD FOR HE IS THIS UNIVERSES' MASTER AND ALL SHALL ADORE HIM.

And this mahesvara will be known when one knows Vishnu and Shiva together.

Best Wishes.

----

Let's see about your rant now. Just suppose for one micro second that Lord Shiva is a "Demi-God". Now you follow the Bhagwat Gita where Devkinandan says not to follow Demi-Gods. Prabhupada translates - "men of inferior knowledge worship 'Demi-Gods' ". Then why would this Krishna worship Lord Shiva - a so claimed "Demi-God" with so much sincerity and devotion??? This would now prove that Krishna was a man of inferior knowledge? He was if I have to follow your logic!!

 

 

Nice logic.

But dear Yogikriya Come out of here and meditate or go anywhere else, or they will succeed to induce Krishna dvesh in you and that should not happen.

They have forgotten the story of destruction of yadus and they have not read SB fully: or they would see:

From SB

31. O Lord Girisa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

The light of cognition within everyone is Lord Shiva -- 'shivoadvaitam Turiya' as it is called in Mandukya Upanishad. Some people harm their own Self (unknowingly of course). This is called ego.

----Note that the verses are from Vedas(Sruti) and I dare you explain this verse, where RudrA(Lord Shiva) himself states that he is sinful.

 

 

Namaskar Raghu,

It is God who is deluding you. Usha is daughter of Rudra only (I have to be careful, since you people think that Rudra, Krishna are all fleshy bodies). Usha is the shine of the pure consciousness that Rudra is and many who have see the light in meditation will know. This pure consciousness is known as the Supreme seer.

RV10.061.05 (Rudra), the benefactor of man, whose eager, virile energy was developed, drew it back when disseminated (for the generation of offfspring); again the irresistible (Rudra) concentrates (the energy) which was communicated to his maiden daughter.

RV 10.061.06 When the deed was done in mid-heaven in the proximity of the father working his will, and the daughter coming together, they let the seed fall slightly; it was poured upon the high place of sacrifice.

RV 10.061.07 When the father united with the daughter, then associating with the earth, he sprinkled it with the effusion; then the thoughtful gods begot Brahma; they fabricated the lord of the hearth (of sacrifice); the defender of sacred rites

Brahma is a mental concept of Devas and so is Brahmanspati. There is none other than one EKO RUDRA, who in the “A” state of AUM is the seer of variety. He alone dreams (U) and He alone is Pragnya (M). He as all pervading Visnu takes these three steps but He is the highest state of Visnu, which sages meditate on.

Svet. Up.

yo devaanaaM prabhavashchodbhavashcha

vishvaadhipo rudro maharshhiH

hiraNyagarbha.n janayaamaasa puurva.n

sa no buddhyaa shubhayaa sa.nyunaktu .. 3.4..

</PRE>

3.4. He, the creator and supporter of the gods, Rudra, the great seer, the lord of all, he who formerly gave birth to Hiranyagarbha, may he endow us with good thoughts.

</PRE>

Rudra is progenitor of Hiraynagarbha and not son of Brahma. What you say is like saying that a wall was the progenitor of Nrisimha. And please note that Rudra is prayed to open up the Buddhi. No wonder that some intellects are clogged.

And that Self or Antaryamin within all creatures is Lord Vishnu, as He's explained in the Gita.

Sure:

But:

Sure. The truth, the Self is paratpara.

Rig Veda 9

saem>? pvte jin/ta m?tI/na< j?in/ta id/vae j?in/ta p&?iw/Vya> ,

j/in/ta¶erœ j?in/ta sUyR?Sy jin/teNÔ?Sy jin/taet iv:[ae>? . 9- 096- 05

And

Mahanarayana

pa~nchasaptatitamo.anuvaakaH .

namo rudraaya vishhNave mR^ityurme paahi .. 1..

doing which you get: Vishnu is Supreme. You're catching on real fast.

Sure. The truth, the Self is paratpara.

Rig Veda 9

saem>? pvte jin/ta m?tI/na< j?in/ta id/vae j?in/ta p&?iw/Vya> ,

j/in/ta¶erœ j?in/ta sUyR?Sy jin/teNÔ?Sy jin/taet iv:[ae>? . 9- 096- 05

Sure. Vishnu took his Trivikrama Avatar as one of the adityas, didn't he? So this verse must be seen in that connection only. Hope you understand. If not, please let me know and I'll try to explain it again.

Sure. Apply these ideas equally, with other verses also.

Rig Veda 9

saem>? pvte jin/ta m?tI/na< j?in/ta id/vae j?in/ta p&?iw/Vya> ,

j/in/ta¶erœ j?in/ta sUyR?Sy jin/teNÔ?Sy jin/taet iv:[ae>? . 9- 096- 05

I will quote directly from Gito Upanishad

CHAPTER 11 TEXT 6

 

pasyadityan vasun rudran

asvinau marutas tatha

 

 

bahuny adrsta-purvani

pasyascaryani bharata

--------

 

 

 

Rudran means Rudras, who are all progeny of Rudra. Do not make smriti your reference point. Do not equate Rudras and shivoadvaita Turiya Self.

dvaavi.nsho.anuvaakaH .

XXII-1 namo hiraNyabaahave hiraNyavarNaaya hiraNyaruupaaya hiraNyapataye.ambikaapataya umaapataye pashupataye namo namaH .. 1..

XXIII-1 Ritam satyaM paraM brahma purushha.n kRishhNapiNgalam.h .

uurdhvareta.n viruupaaksha.n vishvaruupaaya vai namo namaH .. 1..

Om Namah Shivayya

No, with the aprori view that you take the Vedas become a bunch of contradictory verses. For instance (aitareya brahmana 1.1.1)

 

"agnirvai devaanamavamo viShNuH paramaH"

Agni is the lowest of all deities and Vishnu is the highest.

 

The first chapter of Brahma-sutra deals with the apparent contradictions in the scriptures. What you term as contradictions are not really so, and have been dealt by the Acharyas in their works e.g. Sripad Ramanujacharya in his Vedarthasangraha deals with the pUrvapaksha that apaurusheya vedas have contradictions like different deities being extolled in different hymns, and then explains that all these actually refer to Vishnu alone. Similarly Sripad Madhva deals with this Brahma-sutra-bhasya and all his other works where he establishes that Vishnu alone is sarva-shabda-vachya. Indeed the vishvakarma sUkta says that Vishnu gives His Names to all the deities, and the bhallaveya sruti says that Vishnu is the primary referrent of all the words. The point is that all the gunas that are extolled of various deities in the Vedas are those of Vishnu, and thus He is sarva-shabda-vachya. Thus they show the meaning of Bhagavad-Gita 15.15 "vedaishcha sarvaiH ahaM eva vedyo" (by all the Vedas I am to be known) and Hari-vamsha "vede rAmAyaNe chaiva purANe bhArate tathA | AdAvante cha madhye cha viShNuH sarvatra gIyate".

Shivoadvaitam Turiya is the Self. From the energy of the indescribable and un-nameable Self rest all. EKo and Sarva are not different.

Rig Veda 9

saem>? pvte jin/ta m?tI/na< j?in/ta id/vae j?in/ta p&?iw/Vya> ,

j/in/ta¶erœ j?in/ta sUyR?Sy jin/teNÔ?Sy jin/taet iv:[ae>? . 9- 096- 05

OM

Haribol

The tenth anuvaka "Stuhi shrutam garta sadam yuvanam mrugannabhima mupahat numugram, mruda jaritre rudra satvano anyante asmanniva pantu senaha": the previous verses (as also subsequent verses) address Rudra, and thus here the speaker asks Rudra to praise one who is "seated in the heart", "terrible like a lion" etc. Then Nrsimha-tapani upanishad clarifies that "ugram" above refers to Lord Nrsimha.

.

Dear. We have gone through these a lot many times before. Rudra is a Vedic name of infinite conscsiousness. Whereas all your names are from smriti or itihas or purana. Why do you claim that you are follower of Vedas? Why do you simply not say that we are independent thinkers. What is the use of trying to debase Vedic names?

The verse you are referring to appears in Rig Veda in the Second book in a verse for Rudra (Devata is Rudra), as below. The translation is also given:

Stu/ih ïu/t< g?tR/sd</ font>< Æum! %?ph mm! -I n g< m& yuva?nm!>%/¢m! ,

m&/¦a j?ir/Çe é?Ô/ Stva?nae =/Ny< te? A/Smn! in v?pNtu/ sena>? . 2-033-11

2.033.11 Glorify the renowned Rudra, riding in his car, ever youthful, destructive, fierce like a formidable wild beast; Rudra, propitiated by praise, grant happiness to him who praises (you), and let your hosts destroy him who is our adversary.

I repeat: The verse in Rig Veda is an Eulogy to Rudra. Same verse appears in Yajur Veda also. It is funny to see that the root is torn out, hoping that the leaves will saurvive on their own.

After a very long time you will understand what Rudra is. He is the seer in you as well. He is the Supreme Seer, from which nothing is different -- including Narasimha.

And regarding the second verse: asya devasya mILhuSo vayA viSNoreSasya prabhRthe havirbhiH | vide hi rudro rudriyaM mahitvaM yAsiSTaM vartirashvinAvirAvat" , the following is the translation of Saraswati project, based on Sayana. What you cite is from Griffith. Even in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:place w:st=" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Griffith</st1:place></st1:City>'s translation, I have no problem. Vishnu being Rudra's arrow is truly he strength. But Shiva and Vishnu are not two beings.

7.040.05 I propitiate with oblations the ramifications of that divine attainable Vis.n.u, the showerer of benefits; Rudra, bestow upon us the magnificence of his nature; the As'vins have come to our dwelling abond with (sacrificial) food.

You should be sorry for presenting an incorrect translation by which you will have us believe that Vishnu is created by Soma contradicting quotations you provided from Mahanarayana upanishad, Nrismha tapani and host of other srutis (in addition to contradicting yourself). Shatapata Brahmana and other srutis say that yajna is also referred to as Vishnu, and so the above verse is actually referring to yajna. The Shatpatha Brahmana, Mahopanishad and host of other srutis talk about the birth of Rudra from the antaryami of Brahma i.e. Lord Narayana.

 

All your assertions do not make false the Rig Veda verse:

Rig Veda 9

saem>? pvte jin/ta m?tI/na< j?in/ta id/vae j?in/ta p&?iw/Vya> ,

j/in/ta¶erœ j?in/ta sUyR?Sy jin/teNÔ?Sy jin/taet iv:[ae>? . 9- 096- 05

Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward, the father of the earth, father of heaven.Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the father who begat Indra and Vishnu. 9.96.5

Why should I be sorry? I have not assumed that Vishnu is Narayana. But I know that Narayana is Vishnu.

Regarding Rudra's birth from Prajapati, you should know better. Rudra begets and sees the birth of Hiranyagarbha who is progenitor of Prajapati (Brahma). If Rudra again manifests from Brahma, then it does not mean that Rudra is not eternal.Nrisimha bhagwan appeared in a wall. Do not say that the Wall is Lord of Nrisimha.

And I will now show you a Rig verse which will clarify, who the original father is:

RV

10.061.05 (Rudra), the benefactor of man, whose eager, virile energy was developed, drew it back when disseminated (for the generation of offspring); again the irresistible (Rudra) concentrates (the energy) which was communicated to his maiden daughter.

10.061.06 When the deed was done in mid-heaven in the proximity of the father working his will, and the daughter coming together, they let the seed fall slightly; it was poured upon the high place of sacrifice.

10.061.07 When the father united with the daughter, then associating with the earth, he sprinkled it with the effusion; then the thoughtful gods begot Brahma; they fabricated the lord of the hearth (of sacrifice); the defender of sacred rites.

[Lord of the hearth of sacrifice: or va_stos.pati. Rudra, as in the Aitareya Bra_hman.a 3.33. These r.cas show that Puranic stories are not what they seem. In later literature Rudra seems to be begot by Praja_pati; there is also a mix-up with the legend of Brahma's incestuous passion for his daughter.].

Brahma is a thought creation of devas. Only Rudra Param Brahman Purusha and Narayana -- Param Brahman Tattva as the eternal pure consciousness is true.Rest is all Soma Janitaa.

Can judgements be true, if based one one set of Puranas alone? All that needed to be said have been said. These are not for those who are blinded by ego and do not see that what is Rudra is Vishnu and vice-versa. Those who have open enquiring mind will surely profit. I enjoy posting elsewhere, where more common sense prevails.

Best Wishes and Regards.

<st1:place w:st="on">Om</st1:place> Namah Shivayya

From Brham samhita

 

Govinda is the primeval Lord to whom I pray!!!! A Pray by Lord Brahma the first Guru

 

ALL Glories to

 

Sirla Prabhupada (Dear most servant of the servant....of Lord Hari)

 

Hari Bol!!!

Consider these Vedic verses also please.

Sama Veda XIX Soma Pavamana

1. Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward, the father of the earth, father of heaven.Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the father who begat Indra and Vishnu.

Param Atma has no progenitor. I am sorry.

-----not Given proof of the Authtification of all the verses you have pasted here!!!!

 

Govindam Adhi Purusha tam aham Bhajami!!!!!!

 

From Brham samhita

 

Hari Bol!!!

Sorry, I cannot authenticate an upanishad.

Brahma Samhita is not an Upanishad. Then Purusha has origin in Self -- Atma--- though they are not two beings. It is ONE ATMA who is ONE PURUSHA.

Svet. Up,

4.18 yadaa.atamastaanna divaa na raatriH

na sannachaasachchhiva eva kevalaH .

tadaxara.n tat.h saviturvareNyaM

praGYaa cha tasmaat.h prasR^itaa puraaNii .. 18

4.18. When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva (the blessed) alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient praGYaa proceeded thence.

6.7 tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n

ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .

patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-

vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7..

6.7 WE WILL KNOW THIS MIGHTIEST ONE WHO IS FAR ABOVE ALL THE MIGHTY – THIS SUMMIT OF THE GODS AND THEIR GODHEAD, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, WHO TOWERETH HIGH ABOVE ALL SUMMIT AND GREATNESSES. LET US LEARN OF GOD FOR HE IS THIS UNIVERSES' MASTER AND ALL SHALL ADORE HIM.