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Om Namah Bhagavate Shree Vasudevayya Namah
Om Namah Sivayaa
Careful study of Vedas will reveal that the Lord is Savitar –Rudra, Siv-Siva, whose highest manifestation is Visnu and whose fierce-destructive but transformative form is Rudra. The Lord is all pervading Carva and Bhava. One who has not seen Visnu and Rudra together as the One and who has tried to demean one form in favour of another is in dire straits.
A study of three threads: The Lord is One, Raghuji for your utmost pleasure, and The Lord veils and unveils, will convince devotees of the truth.
In contravention of the Vedas, we have begun demeaning the Lord. We have forgotten the Lord, in favour of His dazzling forms. There should be no problem in being devotees of His brilliant and dazzling forms, provided the substratum is not forgotten or demeaned. This is like being fond of clay pots but demeaning the clay. Or, being fascinated by the waves but forgetting the ocean. Or being dazzled by the sparks emanating from fire but forgetting Agni Deva. Thus we have become bereft of the power of the source.
In what other religion, the percentage of the substratum is calculated? Is it prudent to attempt to measure an infinite being with a dubious objective? A Muslim will venerate Mohammed, remembering one Allah; same with Christians. No other religion will tolerate an insult to the One Lord – the substratum.
The essence of Yajur Veda I place below for reading by willing devotees.
Yajur Veda i. 4. 36.
a Çitta with the sinew, Bhava with the liver, Rudra with the taniman, Paçupati with the thick heart, Agni with the heart, Rudra with the blood, Çarva with the kidneys, Mahadeva with the intestinal flesh, him that slayest most quickly with the entrails
Yajur Veda iv. 4. 9.
(Thou art) ---------- Visnu when being taken down; ---------- Vayu when covered up; the gazer on men when revealed; the food when it comes; the famed of the fathers; life when taken; the river when going to the final bath; the ocean when gone; the water when dipped; the heaven when arrived at completion
Yajur Veda v. 7. 3.
a Thou art the thunderbolt of Indra, slaying foes;
Guarding our bodies, lying in wait;
He who in east, south, west,
In the north, as a foe plots against us,
May he strike on this rock.
The gods and the Asuras were in conflict; the Asuras sought to force them from the quarters; the gods repelled them with arrow and thunder bolt; ---------.
b O Agni and Visnu,
May these songs gladden you in unison;
Come ye with radiance and strength.
The theologians say, 'Since they do not offer to any deity, then what deity has the stream of wealth?' Wealth is Agni, this stream is his; wealth is Visnu, this stream is his; with a verse addressed to Agni and Visnu he offers the stream of wealth; verily he unites them with their proper portions; ------- The fire is Rudra; now two are his bodies, the dread the one, the auspicious the other; in that he offers the Çatarudriya, he soothes with it his dread form; in that he offers the stream of wealth, he delights with it his auspicious form. He, who knows the support of the stream of wealth
There is experiential knowledge as well. Acharya Shankara said: One who knows Visnu and Shankara together know Brahman. Acharya Madhava saw Visnu appearing to him from Siva Linga. Rama stipulated: Without Shankara bhajan one cannot get Me also.
Have we not forgotten the Vedas – the source, in favour of forms? Of course, this is what the Lord must have willed.
Om Namah Bhagavate Shree Vasudevayya Namah
Om Namah Sivayaa
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"Srila Prabhupada : Lord Siva is also sometimes described as Bhagavan. Similarly, Lord Brahma, Narada, others are also sometimes described as Bhagavan."
Rudra is the regulator. SP may go to ----.
Rudra is the soul of all Pasus – bulls, so He is Pasupati. So the Yajurveda says:
Yajur Veda: iv. 5. 9.
a ----------.
p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods
Note: Rudra is the soul and Antaryami. All else are His splendours
iv. 4. 8.
(Thou I art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull; bountiful through the sacrifice; heavenly through the sacrificial fee; slayer of enemies through rage; supporter of the body through kindliness; wealth through food; through the earth he hath won; (thou art) eater of food with verses; increased by the Vasat cry; protector of the body through the Saman; full of light with the Viraj; drinker of Soma through the holy power; with cows he supporteth the sacrifice; with lordly power men; with horse and car bearer of the bolt; lord with the seasons; enclosing with the year; unassailable through penance; the sun with bodies.
Note: The Creator with the Bull. All Gods are bulls in Rig Veda.
And Visnu is Him when brought down, as below:
Yajur Veda iv. 4. 9.
(Thou art) ---------- Visnu when being taken down; ---------- Vayu when covered up; the gazer on men when revealed; the food when it comes; the famed of the fathers; life when taken; the river when going to the final bath; the ocean when gone; the water when dipped; the heaven when arrived at completion.
Note: (Thou art) ---------- Visnu when being taken down;
And now learn that Indra is the Lord of Visnu like Adityas are the Lords of Maruts
Yajur Veda iv. 3. 9.
a Thou art the portion of Agni, the overlordship of consecration, the holy power saved, the threefold Stoma.
b Thou art the portion of Indra, the overlordship of Visnu, the lordly power saved, the fifteenfold Stoma.
------
g Thou art the portion of the Adityas, the overlordship of the Maruts, offspring saved, the twenty-fivefold Stoma.
Note: Indra is the overlord of Visnu and Agni is Visnu (when brought down)
iv. 2. 1.
a Thou art the step of Visnu, overcoming hostility, mount the Gayatri metre, step along the earth, excluded is he whom we hate. Thou art the step of Visnu, -------Thou art the step of Visnu, overcomer of the enemy, ------- Thou art the stop of Visnu [1], overcomer of the foe, -------------
Let us now see below what Rig Veda says.
Book 5 HYMN III. Agni.
1. THOU at thy birth art Varuna, O Agni; when thou art kindled thou becomest Mitra.
In thee, O Son of Strength, all Gods are centred. Indra art thou to man who brings oblation.
2 Aryaman art thou as regardeth maidens mysterious, is thy name, O Self-sustainer.
As a kind friend with streams of milk they balm thee what time thou makcst wife and lord one-minded.
3 The life forces deck their beauty for thy glory, yea, Rudra! for thy birth fair, brightly-coloured. That which was fixed as Visnu's loftiest station-therewith the secret of the Cows thou guardest.
Note: Agni is SON OF SHAKTI. Life forces take various glorious forms to reveal glory of Rudra, who is Visnu’s loftiest station. Later we will see that Indra also proceeds to Rudra’s abode on gaining the knowledge of Brahman (when Soma juices flow).
Also note: As a kind friend with streams of milk they balm thee what time thou makcst wife and lord one-minded.
Book 1 HYMN LXI Indra.
1 EVEN to him, swift, strong and high. exalted, I bring my song of praise as dainty viands, My thought to him resistless, praise-deserving, prayers offered most especially to Indra.
2 ----.
7 As soon as, at libations of his mother, great Visnu had drunk up the draught, he plundered. The dainty cakes, the cooked mess;
but One stronger transfixed the wild boar, shooting through the mountain.
8 ---------.
Note: Indra, compared to Visnu, is spoken of as the stronger one. Indra is intellectual power, whereas Visnu is Maya shakti. Rudra rules through both.
Book 1 HYMN CLXIV. Visvedevas.
1. --------
2 Seven to the one-wheeled chariot yoke the Courser; bearing seven names the single Courser draws it. Three-naved the wheel is, sound and undecaying, whereon are resting all these worlds of being.
-------
4 Who hath beheld him as he sprang to being, seen how the boneless One supports the bony? Where is the blood of earth, the life, the spirit? Who may approach the man who knows, to ask it?
10 ---
11 Formed with twelve spokes, by length of time, unweakened, rolls round the heaven this wheel of during Order. Herein established, joined in pairs together, seven hundred Sons and twenty stand, O Agni.
13 -------
16 They told me these were males, though truly females: he who hath eyes sees this, the blind discerns not. The son who is a sage hath comprehended: who knows this rightly is his father's father.
23 --------
30 That which hath breath and speed and life and motion lies firmly established in the midst of houses. Living, by offerings to the Dead he moveth Immortal One, the brother of the mortal.
---
32 He who hath made him cloth not comprehend him: from him who saw him surely is he hidden. He, yet enveloped in his Mother's bosom, source of much life, hath sunk into destruction.
33 -----------------
46 They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, and heavenly nobly-winged Garutman.
To what is One, sages give many a title they call it Agni, Yama, Matarisvan.
47 -----
48 Twelve are the fellies, and the wheel is single; three are the naves. What man hath understood it?
Note: The wheel is single and the 12 spokes (fellies) are perceived as different aspects. To what is One, sages give many a title.
Note: Living, by offerings to the Dead he moveth, the Immortal One. If this is not Rudra then who else is He?
Book 6 HYMN XLIX. Visvedevas
10 Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father.
Him great and lofty, blissful, un-decaying let us call especially as the Sage impels us.
Note: Un-decaying, father of the universe, who is honored with these songs.
Book 8 HYMN XII. Indra.
14 Aditi also hath brought forth a hymn for Indra, Sovran Lord: The work of sacrifice for help is glorified.
27 When Visnu, through thine energy, strode wide those three great steps of his,
Then thy two beautiful Bay Steeds carried thee on.
28 ----------------------
Note: Visnu through Indra’s energy took wide strides and formed the quarters.
Book 8 HYMN XV. Indra.
1. SING forth to him whom many men invoke, to him whom many laud. Invite the powerful Indra with your songs of praise.
2 -----
9 Visnu, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise: In thee the Maruts' company have great delight.
-------------
Note: Visnu sings Indra’s praise
Book 8 HYMN LXVI. Indra.
1. SCARCELY was Satakratu, born when of his Mother he inquired, Who are the mighty? Who are famed?
2----
5 Indra in groundless realms of space pierced the Gandharva through, that he Might make Brahmans' strength increase.
6 Down from the mountains Indra shot hither his well-directed shaft: He gained the ready brew of rice.
7 -------
10 All these things Visnu brought, the Lord of ample stride whom thou hadst sent-
A hundred buffaloes, a brew of rice and milk: and Indra, slew the ravening boar
11 Most deadly is thy bow, successful, fashioned well: good is thine arrow, decked with gold. Warlike and well equipped thine arms are which increase sweetness for him who drinks the sweet.
Note: The reference is to the universal archer who has deadly bow, and golden arrow and arms. If this is not Rudra then who else is He?
Book 10 HYMN I. Agni.
1.HIGH hath the Mighty risen before the dawning, and come to us with light from out the darkness.
--------
3 Here, being manifested, lofty Visnu, full wise, protects his own supreme station.
Note: Agni is Visnu’s manifestation. Elsewhere (in most other references), offerings are to Rudra. So, are Visnu and Rudra different?
Rudra as Sun is Savitar, who when brought down is Visnu. This is also clear in Yajurveda as below.
Book 10 HYMN XCII. Visvedevas.
1. I PRAISE your Charioteer of sacrifice, the Lord of men, Priest of the tribes, refulgent, Guest of night. Blazing amid dry plants, snatching amid the green, the Strong, the Holy Herald hath attained to heaven.
2 ----
9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard.
10 For these have spread abroad the fame of human kind, the Bull Brhaspati and Soma's brotherhood. Atharvan first by sacrifices made men sure: through skill the Bhrgus were esteemed of all as Gods.
11 For these, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.
---------
14 With hymns of praise we sing him who is throned as Lord over these fearless tribes, the Self-resplendent One. We praise Night's youthful Lord benevolent to men, the foeless One, the free, with all celestial Dames.
Note: All fame of humankind and all seeds of the Heaven (including Visnu) are His alone.
Note: With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard. All songs eventually are for Him – ruler of the brave.
Book 10 HYMN CXTII. Indra.
1. THE Heavens and the Earth accordant with all Gods encouraged graciously that vigorous might of his. When he came showing forth his majesty and power, he drank of Soma juice and waxed exceeding strong.
2 This majesty of his Visnu extols and lauds, making the stalk that gives the meath flow forth with might
Note: Visnu extols and lauds majesty of Indra
Book 3 HYMN II. Agni.
1. To him, Vaisvanara, who strengthens Holy Law, to Agni we present our praise like oil made pure.
-----
5 For happiness, men, having trimmed the sacred grass, set Agni glorious for his strength before them here; yea, with raised ladles, him bright, dear to all the Gods, perfecting aims of works, Rudra of solemn rites.
Note: For happiness, men, having trimmed the sacred grass, set Agni glorious for his strength before them here; yea, with raised ladles, him bright, dear to all the Gods, perfecting aims of works, Rudra of solemn rites.
The aim of all karma kanda rites is Rudra.
Book 1 HYMN XXVII. Agni.
1 WITH worship will I glorify thee, Agni, like a long-tailed steed, Imperial Lord of sacred rites.
---------------.
10 Help, thou who knowest lauds, this work, this eulogy to Rudra, him Adorable in every house.
Note: Offerings to Agni are eulogy to Rudra, him Adorable in every house. All songs are eulogies to Rudra.
Book 1 HYMN LXXII. Agni.
1. THOUGH holding many gifts for men, he humbleth the higher powers of each wise ordainer. Agni is now the treasure-lord of treasures, for ever granting all immortal bounties.
2 The Gods infallible all searching found not him, the dear Babe who still is round about us. Worn weary, following his track, devoted, they reached the lovely highest home of Agni.
------
4 Making them known to spacious earth and heaven, the holy Ones revealed the powers of Rudra.
Note: He humbleth the higher powers of each wise ordainer. Searching for Him God’s reached the highest home of Agni and there holy Ones revealed the powers of Rudra.
Book 1 HYMN CI. Indra.
1. SING, with oblation, praise to him who maketh glad, who with Rjisvan drove the dusky brood away. Fain for help, him the strong whose right hand wields the bolt, him girt by Maruts we invoke to be our Friend.
-----
5 He who is Lord of the entire world that moves and breathes, who for the Brahman first before all found the Cows; Indra who cast the Dasyus down beneath his feet,-him girt by Maruts we invoke to be our Friend.
6 ------
7 Refulgent in the Rudras' region he proceeds, and with the Rudras through the wide space speeds the Dame
Note: Indra first came to know about Brahman. This is mentioned in Keno Upanishad where Parvati first reveals the secret of Brahman to Indra. It is Durga alone who can open the gates of knowledge.
Note: Indra remains refulgent in the Rudras' region, and with the Rudras through the wide space speeds the Dame
Book 4 HYMN III. Agni.
1. Assist you to win Rudra, Lord of worship, Priest of both worlds, effectual sacrificer,
Agni, invested with his golden colours, before the thunder strike and lay you senseless.
2 ------
6 What, when thou blazest on the lesser altars, what to the mighty Wind who comes to bless us, True, circumambient? what to Earth, O Agni, what wilt thou say to Rudra who destroys men?
7 How to great Pusan who promotes our welfare,- to honoured Rudra what, who gives oblations?
What sin of ours to the far-striding Visnu, what, Agni, wilt thou tell the Lofty Arrow.
Note: Agni is invested with His golden colours and Agni is the vehicle to reach offerings to Rudra – the Lord of worship.
Note: Visnu is the lofty arrow of Rudra. This is how Rudra gains strength and this is how He destroyed Tripura with Visnu ashtra.
Book 6 HYMN XLIX. Visvedevas.
-----
10 Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father.
Him great and lofty, blissful, un-decaying let us call especially as the Sage impels us.
Note: Rudra is the father of the Universe. At night, Soma is His form and in the day the Sun is His form. Sages and men pray to both.
Book 6 HYMN XIII. Indra.
1. INDRA, when Soma juices flow, makes his mind pure and meet for lauds.
He gains the power that brings success, for great is he.
2 In heaven's first region, in the seat of Gods, is he who brings success,
Most glorious, prompt to save, who wins the water-floods.
3 ---------
20 That mind of Rudra, fresh and strong, moves conscious in the ancient ways,
With reference whereto the wise have ordered this.
Note: Who is Indra? It is the mind, which itself forgets about Rudra. Parvati has to help the Mind. Indra becomes pure when Soma juices flow. And Siva is Somnath.
Book 10 HYMN II. Agni.
1. GLADDEN the yearning Gods, O thou Most Youthful: bring them, O Lord of Seasons, knowing seasons,
-----------.
6 Because the Father hath produced thee, Leader of all our solemn rites, their brilliant Banner:
So win by worship pleasant homes abounding in heroes, and rich food to nourish all men.
7 Thou whom the Heaven and Earth, thou whom the Waters, and Tvastar, maker of fair things, created,
Well knowing, all along the Fathers' pathway, shine with resplendent light, enkindled, Agni.
Note: Who is the Universe’s father, leader of solemn rites?
Book 10 HYMN LXXIII. Indra.
1. THOU wast born mighty for victorious valour, exulting, strongest, full of pride and courage.
There, even there, the Maruts strengthened Indra when. his most rapid Mother stirred the Hero.
-----
10 When others call him offspring of the Courser, my meaning is that Mighty Power produced him.
He came from Manyu and remained in houses: whence he hath sprung is known to Indra only.
---------
Note: Indra came from Manyu, another name of anger and Siva
HYMN LXXXII. Manyu.
1. HE who hath reverenced thee, Manyu, destructive bolt, breeds for himself forthwith all conquering energy.
Arya and Dasa will we conquer with thine aid, with thee the Conqueror, with conquest conquest-sped.
2 Manyu was Indra, yea, the God, was Manyu, Manyu was Hotar, Varuna, Jatavedas.
The tribes of human lineage worship Manyu. Accordant with thy fervour, Manyu, guard us.
3 -----
4 For thou art, Manyu, of surpassing vigour, fierce, queller of the foe, and self-existent,
Shared by all, victorious, subduer: vouchsafe to us superior strengith in battles.,
------
Note: Manyu is self existent and shared by all
Book 10 HYMN LXXXIV. Manyu.
1. BORNE on with thee, O Manyu girt by Maruts, let our brave men, impetuous, bursting forward, March on, like flames of fire in form, exulting, with pointed arrows, sharpening their weapons.
2 Flashing like fire, be thou, O conquering Manyu, invoked, O Victor, as our army's leader. Slay thou our foes, distribute their possessions: show forth thy vigour, scatter those who hate us.
3 --------
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Who is preaching the world the wrong things?
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Prabhupada is not where I would like to go.
Please show me from Vedas.
Gita clearly says, Bhakti and Jnana yoga paths both lead to Him.
3.43 Thus knowing Him who is beyond the intellect, O mighty armed, control your self by the Self and slay the enemy in the form of desire, hard though it may be.
5.16 But in those whose unwisdom is destroyed by wisdom, that wisdom like the Sun, reveals the Supreme (Param)
6.29 One who is thus integrated in yoga sees all with equal eye, seeing himself in all beings all beings in himself.
7.17 The foremost of these is the wise one (jnani) who is ever steadfast and devoted to the One. Very dear am I to the Jnani and he to Me.
And what you are saying means that you have the choice and you will attain God in one life time by just following Prabhupada. The Lord leads one through a Karma path where one has to go through a mix of Karma, Bhakti, and Jnana.
So, your path may not be my path. And so, Gita teaches all paths. You are only invalidating Gita, Upanishads and Vedas.
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So, this is the matter.
Jesus and Prabhupada are both incarnations of same status.
And Ramakrishna becomes a fraud when millions consider Him an incarnation.
Jealousy has not been overcome and one becomes a sage.
And when did Shiva become an incarnation? Please provide proof from Shruti.
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"you can have a better language.. but with this language you are unable to give any valid answer to gaura das"
Since you are the Judge. And may be you are GD himself.
The language is self evident and no other proof is required. . needs not be picked up and smelled.
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"in this age of Kali yuga, and any other system is declared by the Vedas to be not sutiable due to our short lives, and the many other shortcomings we are subjected to "
Can you show where in Vedas, it is declared?
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Following are a few verses from Vedas. The VEIL IS CREATED AND REMOVED BY Soma and Rudra – Somnath.
ENJOY AND REJOICE.
Note: Vishnu is Rudra’s lofty arrow
Yajur Veda vi. 2. 3.
The Asuras had three citadels; the lowest was of iron, then there was one of silver, then one of gold. The gods could not conquer them; they sought to conquer them by siege; therefore they say--both those who know thus and those who do not--'By siege they conquer great citadels.' They made ready an arrow, Agni as the point, Soma as the socket, Visnu as the shaft. They said, 'Who shall shoot it?' [1] 'Rudra', they said, let him shoot it.'
Rig Veda Book 4 HYMN III. Agni.
1. Assist you to win Rudra, Lord of worship, Priest of both worlds, effectual sacrificer,
Agni, invested with his golden colours, before the thunder strike and lay you senseless.
2 ------
6 What, when thou blazest on the lesser altars, what to the mighty Wind who comes to bless us, True, circumambient? what to Earth, O Agni, what wilt thou say to Rudra who destroys men?
7 How to great Pusan who promotes our welfare,- to honoured Rudra what, who gives oblations?
What sin of ours to the far-striding Visnu, what, Agni, wilt thou tell the Lofty Arrow.
Note: Rudra is Visnu when brought down (made manifest), as below:
Yajur Veda iv. 4. 9.
(Thou art) ---------- Visnu when being taken down; ---------- Vayu when covered up; the gazer on men when revealed; the food when it comes; the famed of the fathers; life when taken; the river when going to the final bath; the ocean when gone; the water when dipped; the heaven when arrived at completion.
Note: (Thou art) ---------- Visnu when being taken down;
Note: Who is Indra?
Rig Veda Book 6 HYMN XIII. Indra.
1. INDRA, when Soma juices flow, makes his mind pure and meet for lauds.
He gains the power that brings success, for great is he.
2 In heaven's first region, in the seat of Gods, is he who brings success,
Most glorious, prompt to save, who wins the water-floods.
3 ---------
20 That mind of Rudra, fresh and strong, moves conscious in the ancient ways,
With reference whereto the wise have ordered this.
Note: Indra is the ancient mind of Rudra. Ancient mind of Rudra forgot that He was the Lord. Durga unveils the truth to Indra in Keno Upanishad.
We all forget that the temporary 5 sheaths that we think we are covers the immortal God – the Self.
Note: Indra is the Lord of Visnu like Adityas are the Lords of Maruts
Yajur Veda iv. 3. 9.
a Thou art the portion of Agni, the overlordship of consecration, the holy power saved, the threefold Stoma.
b Thou art the portion of Indra, the overlordship of Visnu, the lordly power saved, the fifteenfold Stoma.
Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XII. Indra.
14 Aditi also hath brought forth a hymn for Indra, Sovran Lord: The work of sacrifice for help is glorified.
27 When Visnu, through thine energy, strode wide those three great steps of his,
Then thy two beautiful Bay Steeds carried thee on.
28 ----------------------
Note: Visnu through Indra’s energy took wide strides and formed the quarters. Yes, Mind only creates Visnu.
Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XV. Indra.
1. SING forth to him whom many men invoke, to him whom many laud. Invite the powerful Indra with your songs of praise.
2 -----
9 Visnu, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise: In thee the Maruts' company have great delight.
-------------
Note: Visnu sings Indra’s praise
Note: Rudra yields to none
Yajur Veda i. 8. 6.
a -------
d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.
e The mole is thy beast, O Rudra; rejoice in it.
f This is thy portion, O Rudra, with thy sister Ambika; rejoice in it.
g -------
The god Tryambaka;
That he may make us prosperous,
That he may increase our wealth,
That he may make us rich in cattle,
That he may embolden us.
i To Tryambaka we make offering,
The fragrant, increaser of prosperity;
Like a cucumber from its stem,
From death may I be loosened, not from immortality.
k This is thy portion, O Rudra; rejoice in it; with it for food, do thou go away beyond the Mujavants.
l With unstrung bow, thy club in thy hand, clad in skins.
Note: The Mrityuonjaya mantra
Note: RUDRA IS BOLT OF INDRA AND THE WIDE STEPS OF VISNU AS WELL
Yajur Veda i. 8. 15.
a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.
b ------
c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu
d On the instigation of the Maruts may I conquer.
e Be mind ready.
f May I be united with power and strength. (Shiva and Shakti)
g Thou art the spirit of cattle; like them may my spirit be.
h ------------
Note: Agni and Visnu are two forms of Rudra Shiva
Yajur Veda v. 7. 3.
a Thou art the thunderbolt of Indra, slaying foes;
Guarding our bodies, lying in wait;
He who in east, south, west,
In the north, as a foe plots against us,
May he strike on this rock.
The gods and the Asuras were in conflict; the Asuras sought to force them from the quarters; the gods repelled them with arrow and thunder bolt; ---------.
b O Agni and Visnu,
May these songs gladden you in unison;
Come ye with radiance and strength.
The theologians say, 'Since they do not offer to any deity, then what deity has the stream of wealth?' Wealth is Agni, this stream is his; wealth is Visnu, this stream is his; with a verse addressed to Agni and Visnu he offers the stream of wealth; verily he unites them with their proper portions; ------- The fire is Rudra; now two are his bodies, the dread the one, the auspicious the other; in that he offers the Çatarudriya, he soothes with it his dread form; in that he offers the stream of wealth, he delights with it his auspicious form. He, who knows the support of the stream of wealth
Note: Rudra is Citta, Bhava, Carva, Mahadeva
Yajur Veda i. 4. 36.
a Çitta with the sinew, Bhava with the liver, Rudra with the taniman, Paçupati with the thick heart, Agni with the heart, Rudra with the blood, Çarva with the kidneys, Mahadeva with the intestinal flesh, him that slayest most quickly with the entrails
Note: Rudra is everywhere, The Omniscient
Yajur Veda v. 5. 9.
a O Agni, the ocean, thy arrow called the young, with it be gentle
to us; homage to this of thine; may we prosper, living on this of thine.
-------.
i The Rudra in the fire, in the waters, in the plants, the Rudra that hath entered all beings, to that Rudra be homage
Note: Rudra is Agni and Pusan
Yajur Veda i. 3. 14.
a Thou, O Agni, art Rudra, the Asura of the mighty sky,
Thou art the host of the Maruts, thou art lord of food;
Thou farest with ruddy winds, blessing the household;
Thou, as Pusan dost, protectest thy worshippers with thyself.
b Rudra, king of the sacrifice,
True offerer, priest of both worlds,
Agni before the dreadful thunder,'
Of golden colour, win ye for help.
Note: Rudra is Vastopati
Yajur Veda iii. 4. 10.
a O Vastospati, accept us;
Be of kind entrance for us and free from ill;
That which we seek from thee, do thou accord us,
-----
[2] Now Vastospati is Rudra. If he were to go on without offering to Vastospati, the fire becoming Rudra would leap after him and slay him; he offers to Vastospati; verily with his own share he appeases him; the sacrificer does not come to ruin.
Yajur Veda iv. 5. 7.
-------
n Homage to him of the cloud, and to him of the lightning.
o Homage to him of the cloudy sky, and to him of the heat.
p Homage to him of the wind, and to him of the storm.
q Homage to him of the dwelling, and to him who guardeth the dwelling.
Note: He is in heat (agni), lightning (Indra), Wind (Vayu), Storm (Maruts). The dwelling and its guard.
Note: Savitar is Siva. Aditi accords Rudra’s grace
Yajur Veda iii. 4. 11.
a Long life thou givest, O Agni,
-----
e With our hymns to-day we choose
The god of all, the lord of the true,
Savitr of true instigation.
--------.
g That Aditi may accord
To our cattle, our men, our kine,
To our offspring, Rudra's grace.
h Harm us not in our children, our descendants, nor in our life,
Harm us not in our cattle, in our horses [2]
Smite not in anger our heroes, O Rudra,
With oblations let us serve thee with honour
Note: The ignorance is truly removed by Soma and Rudra -- Somnath
Yajur Veda ii. 2. 10.
Yonder sun did not shine, the gods sought an atonement for him, for him they offered this oblation to Soma and Rudra: verily thereby they bestowed brightness upon him. If he desires to become resplendent, he should offer for him this oblation to Soma and Rudra; verily he has recourse to Soma and Rudra with their own portion; verily they bestow upon him splendour; he becomes resplendent. He should offer on the full moon day of the month Tisya; Tisya is Rudra [1], the full moon is Soma; verily straightway he wins splendour.
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"think of narasimhadeva"
You are comp[aring yourself to Narasimhadeva
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Om Namah Sivayya
Below I have reproduced a few verses from the Song Celestial. The main theme which I wish readers will keep in mind is:
6.29 One who is thus integrated in yoga sees all with equal eye, seeing himself in all beings all beings in himself.
These verses are not for people who still have Karma pending. Such people are simply incapable of assimilating the import of the verses. Moreover, due to rampant ego, they will not submit to these commandments of the Lord. They will not accept that the Lord speaks about the highest abode of unmanifest Brahman, which is attainable through the path of Jnana and that a Jnani really becomes the Self, since He has no more small self left and sees every other being within himself.
But a few whose Karma quota is finishing may benefit.
2.20 That is not born, nor does it ever die; having been, does it ever cease to be. That unborn, eternal, abiding, primeval Being is not slain when the body is slain
2.24 Invulnerable He is, not to be burnt, not to be drenched or dried. He is eternal, all pervading, changeless, motionless, enduring
2.27 Know that which pervades all this to be indestructible. That immutable none can destroy
3.42 Mighty they say are the senses, mightier than these, the mind, mightier than that the intellect, but mightier still is He.
3.43 Thus knowing Him who is beyond the intellect, O mighty armed, control your self by the Self and slay the enemy in the form of desire, hard though it may be.
5.16 But in those whose unwisdom is destroyed by wisdom, that wisdom like the Sun, reveals the Supreme (Param)
6.29 One who is thus integrated in yoga sees all with equal eye, seeing himself in all beings all beings in himself.
7.17 The foremost of these is the wise one (jnani) who is ever steadfast and devoted to the One. Very dear am I to the Jnani and he to Me.
7.19 At the end of many births the wise comes to Me, realising that Vasudeva is all. Such great soul is very rare to find.
8.21 The Supreme state is called the Unmanifest Imperishable (avyato akshara). That is my highest abode. For those who attain it there is no return
9.22 To those, however, who dwell on Me in single minded worship I guarantee fulfillment of needs and security
10.10 To them ever steadfast in loving worship, I give the yoga of understanding by which they attain Me.
10.11 Out of compassion for them, I, dwelling in their heart, destroy the darkness born of ignorance with the effulgent light of knowledge.
10.20 I am the Self, O Gudakesa, dwelling in the hearts of all beings. I am the beginning and the middle and the end of all beings
13.33 Just as all pervading ether being subtle, is not affected, even so, the Self pervading the whole body is not tainted
15.5 The uneluded, those who are free from pride and ignorance, who have overcome the evil of attachment, who are ever devoted to the Self, who have turned away from desires and are entirely beyond the dualities of pleasure and pain, attain that imperishable state
15.6 Neither sun, nor moon, nor fire illumines this state on attaining which one does not return. And this is My supreme abode.
18.61 The Lord resides in the hearts of all, O Arjuna, revolving all creatures by prakriti as if mounted on a machine
18.62 Surrender unto Him with all your heart, O Bharata. Through His grace you will attain Supreme peace and the perennial abode.
Unbiased readers may please judge the verse:
6.29 One who is thus integrated in yoga sees all with equal eye, seeing himself in all beings all beings in himself.
Does it not talk of oneness?
7.17 The foremost of these is the wise one (jnani) who is ever steadfast and devoted to the One. Very dear am I to the jnani and he to Me.
8.21 The Supreme state is called the Unmanifest Imperishable (avyato akshara). That is my highest abode. For those who attain it here is no return
15.6 Neither sun, nor moon, nor fire illumines this state on attaining which one does not return. And this is My supreme abode.
Bhagwan talks of both the paths. Of Bhakti and of Jnana. He himself says that the unmanifest imperishable state is the highest attainable from which there is no return. He repeats twice that this unmanifest state is His highest abode.
Bhagwan also says (at several places):
10.20 I am the Self, O Gudakesa, dwelling in the hearts of all beings. I am the beginning and the middle and the end of all beings
And He also says:
6.29 One who is thus integrated in yoga sees all with equal eye, seeing himself in all beings all beings in himself.
A perfect Jnani – who abides always in Self, attains the highest abode and becomes the Self. Or else, how can one see all beings within himself?
Please ponder friends, when does One see all beings within Oneself? If this is not the Viswarupa state then what it is?
Now read again:
9.22 To those, however, who dwell on Me in single minded worship I guarantee fulfillment of needs and security
10.10 To them ever steadfast in loving worship, I give the yoga of understanding by which they attain Me.
10.11 Out of compassion for them, I, dwelling in their heart, destroy the darkness born of ignorance with the effulgent light of knowledge.
and,
5.16 But in those whose unwisdom is destroyed by wisdom, that wisdom like the sun, reveals the Supreme (Param)
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"so be logic"
What does this heading mean?
Does one become logic or does one become logical.
So much for your logic, my dear friend.
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Dear Saketramji,
I really know that argument never resolves. That is fundamental in our Dharma. Vivekananda said: "If there is argument, know that God is away". Similarly, impertinent questions were answered by complete silence by Bhagwan Ramana.
But we, the small people, take up positions as per instinct and slog it out for the pleasure of ego.
Yes, nothing will be resolved. These spiritualists do not know about Sabda Brahman. Gods created through sabda. We also create and modify ourselves and our environment through sabda. What we say and write make us.
These discussions will at least reveal to a few as to who are against Gita. Who are dispassionate and who are full of hatred.
And how this passion arises? Let all bhaktas who read through these threads judge.
And finally, who are we as individuals? The Lord has planned and executed this tamasha through clowns who are iconoclasts and call great revered people clowns.
It is like this. If I suddenly start shouting: "Hey Rabindranath is a cheater, Einstein is an Idiot." What will the world think of me? Will Einstein become an Idiot or I will become one.
God Himself has created this thread and other threads of GD.
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Kicking out
Rascal
Fraud
Cheater
Clown
Nice words to describe revered sages such as Ramakrishna, Vivekananda and others. Nice spiritual progress of a Dasa.
Says a lot about the teacher too.
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"The Muslim and Hindu divided. He wanted non-violence. He died out of violence. Therefore all his philosophy failed"
Lord Jesus died at the hands of fanatics. So, He also failed?
Of course for HK's all others are spiritual failures.
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"For Sai Baba ,Vivekananda, and all the other clowns"
You and SP are the greatest ones.
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"Al-Mighty, why didn't he changed the course of events rather than confronting the people. Sorry, I'm not trying to be funny or ridiculing you, I just wanted you to see that being God, you need not be a human; you can send messengers.
Being Al-Mighty, he can do whatever he pleases. He need not bother emotionally or personally or interact with human. Why must The Al-Mighty forces people to believe His existence by personally showing Himself. "
Regards to your Muslim friend.
Tell your Muslim friend:
The Lord (Brahman)is Unmanifest and unchanging. Truly He sends messengers. KRSNA is an Avatara.
Param Brahman's manifestation is Adi Atma (or Purusha) and Yajna (sacrifice)of Adi Atma brings forth beings. Bhagwan Shri Krisna is Adi Yajna. The original sacrifice.
But, as your friend says: "he can do whatever he pleases". So, He can appear as Human as per His wish. Where is the problem?
I repeat: your friend says: "he can do whatever he pleases". So, He can appear as Human as per His wish.
Truly Lord can do anything whatsoever.
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From the usage of language no doubts remain as to who is what.
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Following are a few verses from Vedas. The VEIL IS CREATED AND REMOVED BY Soma and Rudra – Somnath.
ENJOY AND REJOICE.
Note: Vishnu is Rudra’s lofty arrow
Yajur Veda vi. 2. 3.
The Asuras had three citadels; the lowest was of iron, then there was one of silver, then one of gold. The gods could not conquer them; they sought to conquer them by siege; therefore they say--both those who know thus and those who do not--'By siege they conquer great citadels.' They made ready an arrow, Agni as the point, Soma as the socket, Visnu as the shaft. They said, 'Who shall shoot it?' [1] 'Rudra', they said, let him shoot it.'
Rig Veda Book 4 HYMN III. Agni.
1. Assist you to win Rudra, Lord of worship, Priest of both worlds, effectual sacrificer,
Agni, invested with his golden colours, before the thunder strike and lay you senseless.
2 ------
6 What, when thou blazest on the lesser altars, what to the mighty Wind who comes to bless us, True, circumambient? what to Earth, O Agni, what wilt thou say to Rudra who destroys men?
7 How to great Pusan who promotes our welfare,- to honoured Rudra what, who gives oblations?
What sin of ours to the far-striding Visnu, what, Agni, wilt thou tell the Lofty Arrow.
Note: Rudra is Visnu when brought down (made manifest), as below:
Yajur Veda iv. 4. 9.
(Thou art) ---------- Visnu when being taken down; ---------- Vayu when covered up; the gazer on men when revealed; the food when it comes; the famed of the fathers; life when taken; the river when going to the final bath; the ocean when gone; the water when dipped; the heaven when arrived at completion.
Note: (Thou art) ---------- Visnu when being taken down;
Note: Who is Indra?
Rig Veda Book 6 HYMN XIII. Indra.
1. INDRA, when Soma juices flow, makes his mind pure and meet for lauds.
He gains the power that brings success, for great is he.
2 In heaven's first region, in the seat of Gods, is he who brings success,
Most glorious, prompt to save, who wins the water-floods.
3 ---------
20 That mind of Rudra, fresh and strong, moves conscious in the ancient ways,
With reference whereto the wise have ordered this.
Note: Indra is the ancient mind of Rudra. Ancient mind of Rudra forgot that He was the Lord. Durga unveils the truth to Indra in Keno Upanishad.
We all forget that the temporary 5 sheaths that we think we are covers the immortal God – the Self.
Note: Indra is the Lord of Visnu like Adityas are the Lords of Maruts
Yajur Veda iv. 3. 9.
a Thou art the portion of Agni, the overlordship of consecration, the holy power saved, the threefold Stoma.
b Thou art the portion of Indra, the overlordship of Visnu, the lordly power saved, the fifteenfold Stoma.
Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XII. Indra.
14 Aditi also hath brought forth a hymn for Indra, Sovran Lord: The work of sacrifice for help is glorified.
27 When Visnu, through thine energy, strode wide those three great steps of his,
Then thy two beautiful Bay Steeds carried thee on.
28 ----------------------
Note: Visnu through Indra’s energy took wide strides and formed the quarters. Yes, Mind only creates Visnu.
Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XV. Indra.
1. SING forth to him whom many men invoke, to him whom many laud. Invite the powerful Indra with your songs of praise.
2 -----
9 Visnu, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise: In thee the Maruts' company have great delight.
-------------
Note: Visnu sings Indra’s praise
Note: Rudra yields to none
Yajur Veda i. 8. 6.
a -------
d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.
e The mole is thy beast, O Rudra; rejoice in it.
f This is thy portion, O Rudra, with thy sister Ambika; rejoice in it.
g -------
The god Tryambaka;
That he may make us prosperous,
That he may increase our wealth,
That he may make us rich in cattle,
That he may embolden us.
i To Tryambaka we make offering,
The fragrant, increaser of prosperity;
Like a cucumber from its stem,
From death may I be loosened, not from immortality.
k This is thy portion, O Rudra; rejoice in it; with it for food, do thou go away beyond the Mujavants.
l With unstrung bow, thy club in thy hand, clad in skins.
Note: The Mrityuonjaya mantra
Note: RUDRA IS BOLT OF INDRA AND THE WIDE STEPS OF VISNU AS WELL
Yajur Veda i. 8. 15.
a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.
b ------
c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu
d On the instigation of the Maruts may I conquer.
e Be mind ready.
f May I be united with power and strength. (Shiva and Shakti)
g Thou art the spirit of cattle; like them may my spirit be.
h ------------
Note: Agni and Visnu are two forms of Rudra Shiva
Yajur Veda v. 7. 3.
a Thou art the thunderbolt of Indra, slaying foes;
Guarding our bodies, lying in wait;
He who in east, south, west,
In the north, as a foe plots against us,
May he strike on this rock.
The gods and the Asuras were in conflict; the Asuras sought to force them from the quarters; the gods repelled them with arrow and thunder bolt; ---------.
b O Agni and Visnu,
May these songs gladden you in unison;
Come ye with radiance and strength.
The theologians say, 'Since they do not offer to any deity, then what deity has the stream of wealth?' Wealth is Agni, this stream is his; wealth is Visnu, this stream is his; with a verse addressed to Agni and Visnu he offers the stream of wealth; verily he unites them with their proper portions; ------- The fire is Rudra; now two are his bodies, the dread the one, the auspicious the other; in that he offers the Çatarudriya, he soothes with it his dread form; in that he offers the stream of wealth, he delights with it his auspicious form. He, who knows the support of the stream of wealth
Note: Rudra is Citta, Bhava, Carva, Mahadeva
Yajur Veda i. 4. 36.
a Çitta with the sinew, Bhava with the liver, Rudra with the taniman, Paçupati with the thick heart, Agni with the heart, Rudra with the blood, Çarva with the kidneys, Mahadeva with the intestinal flesh, him that slayest most quickly with the entrails
Note: Rudra is everywhere, The Omniscient
Yajur Veda v. 5. 9.
a O Agni, the ocean, thy arrow called the young, with it be gentle
to us; homage to this of thine; may we prosper, living on this of thine.
-------.
i The Rudra in the fire, in the waters, in the plants, the Rudra that hath entered all beings, to that Rudra be homage
Note: Rudra is Agni and Pusan
Yajur Veda i. 3. 14.
a Thou, O Agni, art Rudra, the Asura of the mighty sky,
Thou art the host of the Maruts, thou art lord of food;
Thou farest with ruddy winds, blessing the household;
Thou, as Pusan dost, protectest thy worshippers with thyself.
b Rudra, king of the sacrifice,
True offerer, priest of both worlds,
Agni before the dreadful thunder,'
Of golden colour, win ye for help.
Note: Rudra is Vastopati
Yajur Veda iii. 4. 10.
a O Vastospati, accept us;
Be of kind entrance for us and free from ill;
That which we seek from thee, do thou accord us,
-----
[2] Now Vastospati is Rudra. If he were to go on without offering to Vastospati, the fire becoming Rudra would leap after him and slay him; he offers to Vastospati; verily with his own share he appeases him; the sacrificer does not come to ruin.
Yajur Veda iv. 5. 7.
-------
n Homage to him of the cloud, and to him of the lightning.
o Homage to him of the cloudy sky, and to him of the heat.
p Homage to him of the wind, and to him of the storm.
q Homage to him of the dwelling, and to him who guardeth the dwelling.
Note: He is in heat (agni), lightning (Indra), Wind (Vayu), Storm (Maruts). The dwelling and its guard.
Note: Savitar is Siva. Aditi accords Rudra’s grace
Yajur Veda iii. 4. 11.
a Long life thou givest, O Agni,
-----
e With our hymns to-day we choose
The god of all, the lord of the true,
Savitr of true instigation.
--------.
g That Aditi may accord
To our cattle, our men, our kine,
To our offspring, Rudra's grace.
h Harm us not in our children, our descendants, nor in our life,
Harm us not in our cattle, in our horses [2]
Smite not in anger our heroes, O Rudra,
With oblations let us serve thee with honour
Note: The ignorance is truly removed by Soma and Rudra -- Somnath
Yajur Veda ii. 2. 10.
Yonder sun did not shine, the gods sought an atonement for him, for him they offered this oblation to Soma and Rudra: verily thereby they bestowed brightness upon him. If he desires to become resplendent, he should offer for him this oblation to Soma and Rudra; verily he has recourse to Soma and Rudra with their own portion; verily they bestow upon him splendour; he becomes resplendent. He should offer on the full moon day of the month Tisya; Tisya is Rudra [1], the full moon is Soma; verily straightway he wins splendour.
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If you read Shree Rudram, you will find that Rudra is all, including Vishnu.
But I do not have any problem with your position. It is a question of whether the sub stratum gives rise to all pervading and swift Vishnu or the other way round.
I remember a fight my daughter had with another kid of her age. My daughter kept saying " The Sun is 'peela'". The other kid kept on repeating: "No, the Sun is yellow. But finally the Sun is Sun.
All scriptures state that the unchanging substratum is Brahman. Mind (Indra) emerges from that. He brings in waters (Goddesses) and from the waters emerge Vishnu. Dragon of the deep (Ahirbudhnaya) still is there as the sub stratum.
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You have said:
“Very simply, because it is a conscious choice he is making, not a reaction brought on to him without his control. We are all living individuals with consciousness and freewill. It is that execution of freewill in determining "will I do this or not" that creates the fresh reaction.”
I contend:
How do we decide: “will I do this or not”? Each Jiva decides according to his own nature (actually, depending on each person’s level of entanglement with Maya). For example, material possessions hold not much importance to me but to another, possessions are of paramount importance. So, the decisions vary according to nature.
Now, did (as a small self) I have any control over my nature at the time of birth? I had no control. So, one gets entangled in Karma cycle right from the time a dress (body) is acquired.
Krishna tells Arjuna: Whether you are perturbed or not, you will fight because of nature. Now who has control over this nature?
Only the Gods, Avatars, and Self realized Jivas have control because their will and the will of super soul are not different. They are free, liberated.
On the other hand, for a Jiva (like me), who is full of desires, there is no free will. For Jivas, “Free Will” is a contradictory thing. It is a term coined by materialistic philosophers, mostly of the Occident. When there is a small will (will of the small self), how can one be free? One will be tied to that will and more and more karma will be accumulated. Since, will of small self is sure to conflict with will of another small self, there will be clashes etc.
There is no Free Will for small selfs. Small self wills and acts as per instinctive nature, which is not under self’s control.
Raman Maharshi said that there is only one choice for Jivas who have begun to know of God. Since God’s grace is constant, the choice for such a Jiva is whether he will seek God actively or remain lazy and then eventually again forget God. For other Jiva’s (Asuras) – who yet do not know the One God, there is no free will. They are absolutely subjugated to their instinctive nature – over which only Vinayaka has control (That’s why He is there on your site as well).
One answer to original question of this thread may be:
Inherent tendencies – the nature or Maya
The closest absolute definition of God is that He is Sat-Chit-Anand (Existence-Consciousness-Bliss). I have had a nagging doubt about this. If God is Sat-Chit-Anand, then where was the need for this differentiated universe? This differentiated universe is at the source of all pains; this all religions agree. The sense of separateness gives rise to pain of defeat, pain of loss, pain of longing, pain of separation, pain of cancer, and pain of death. Why should God be source of these if He was pure Sat-Chit-Anand. Or should mortal man take all guilt for the pains, leaving God in pure Existence-Consciousness-Bliss state.
Siva-Ramana tells me that this knowledge is incomplete. He is not Sat-Chit-Anand alone, which is only a progressed state of HIM but He is a more primal Sat-Asat (existence-nonexistence) composed of two opposing tendencies. These two tendencies are balanced in Him as a whole but not balanced properly in the differentiated parts that arise from Him due to play of these two fundamental opposing tendencies.
Before we proceed further, an introduction on Sat-Chit-Anand may be required for some. Everything in this universe may exist in one of the four possible states. First, a state of waking wherein one perceives the differentiated universe. Sages know this to be Maya or illusion. This does not mean that the objects of the waking state are unreal. It only means that waking state objects are not permanent vis-à-vis the permanent substratum that gives rise to these objects. Actually clinging to such non-permanent objects is the fundamental cause of all pains. The second state is of dreaming wherein again objects are not permanent. The only difference between the waking and the dream state is in the scale of time related to permanence of objects. In both the waking and the dream state, the mind senses the appearances as the objective real. And only when one comes out of the state that one knows about the dream. The third state is of deep sleep wherein mind dissociates from objects – put to rest to cool down, and lo there is no external universe although the jiva exists. The fourth state is Turiya state. This state is special and attained only by diligent meditations. If you, while waking, can stop all thoughts of the mind – put it to rest like in deep sleep state or in other words, absorb the mind in the substratum that underlies it, then you will lose the sense of the differentiated universe. You will only know presence of an unchanging effulgence without any form or shape in it and associated with the effulgence there will be a knowledge of ‘I-I’ or ‘I am’. This knowledge of ‘I am’ is different from the knowledge of ‘I am this’, since there will be no body and egoity in this state. Since all pains reside in body and mind, you will feel no pain and the sensation is indeed one of bliss. This sensation is Sat-Chit-Anand – knowledge of a pure blissful existence.
But if Siva was Sat-Chit-Anand only, then why would he create a painful differentiated world. Siva is somewhat like zero and 1of binary number system. The entire differentiated world of computational technology with different states (different memory systems of differing permanence and various knowledge residing in these memory systems) arise from the binary system. The two opposing tendencies -- physicists may prefer to call these tendencies as forces, are: a tendency to undifferentiated union (universalism) and another tendency to differentiation (individualism). Each of these tendencies has inbuilt in it the seed for the opposite tendency. Sat-Chit-Anand may be bliss but being undifferentiated who will feel the joy and who will know the Lord and who will praise Him? Know that when you praise another Jiva for his excellent deed, you are praising the Lord and the Lord wanted it that way. Moreover, bliss can be boring if it is a continuous unbroken and undifferentiated divine light only. So there is the seed of wish, desire and lust (need) for variety – lust for form, fame, taste, touch etc in the undifferentiated Lord. This gives rise to differentiated forms to satisfy His wishes. On the other hand, when different forms exist and are rampant, the pains associated with such strife filled temporary existence become overwhelming and a need is felt by the differentiated entities to go back to the undifferentiated existence. So, the undifferentiated Lord creates differentiation and thus differentiated entities eventually go back to the one ness.
The tendency to oneness is characterized by Devas and the tendency to differentiation is characterized by Asuras. Both the Devas and Asuras (demons) are forms of the Lord.
The demonic and divine qualities reside in primordial state of Siva and are not bad or good inherently but are tendencies only. They are bad or good to differentiated objects in relative terms. The Biblical story of tasting of the forbidden fruits by Adam and Eve as beginning of the evil universe exemplifies the sin at the beginning. But Adam and Eve are nothing but Siva and Parvati.
An individual is free of guilt and pain when he knows that the tendencies that cause conflict emanate from Prakriti. Individual is not the doer. Every individual, depending on his state of evolution, has a mix of both the tendencies in varying proportion. An individual may be moving towards the pinnacle of demonic qualities only to oscillate back towards his divine odyssey. The law of cause and effect relates to these fundamental tendencies only. One, who through contemplation and meditation, has learnt one’s position in the cause and effect spectrum and has learnt to balance the Demon and the Divine within, has attained peace.
Siva tells that a man on demonic trail has to sweat to earn name, taste, touch, and possess and bind different forms as objects of sensual enjoyments, only to attain pain but a man on divine odyssey has only to meditate on the Sat. For such a man all attainments and possessions and tastes are temporary and unworthy.
J. N. Dasji, forgive my transgression.
Atanu
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"i wrote that original rg veda thing...
firstly, sorry if i offended anybody...
secondly, rig veda is important, i totally wrote the foolish thing...."
Purity
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Yajur Veda
iv. 5. 5.
a Homage to Bhava and to Rudra.
b Homage to Çarva -----------.
f Homage to him who haunteth the mountains, and to Çipivista.
g --------------.
I Homage to the chief, and to the first.
m -----------------.
Note: Rudra is Carva. Carva is all. Rudra is Cipivista
Mind cannot confirm Shruti. If you had read the thread from the beginning then this question would not have arisen.
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Govindramji,
It is a forum. At least I do not use words like "cheater" as ephitets for Gurus. Neither do I call anyone Asura, fanatic etc.
Enough proof has been provided from Vedas in two threads: “The Lord is one” and “For your utmost pleasure Raghuramji”
Also read from Brahma Samhita:
niyatih sa rama devi
tat-priya tad-vasam tada
tal-lingam bhagavan sambhur
jyoti-rupah sanatanah
ya yonih sapara saktih
kamo bijam mahad hareh
Translation
the regulator; she; the spiritual potency; devi; beloved of Him,under the control, at the time of creation, of Him: (lingam, bhagavan, sambhuh, halo, sanatanah); which; yonih-- that saktih, the desire; the seed; mahat--the faculty of cognition; --of hareh.
Durga, consort of Him – the Linga rupi sambuh, sanatana halo, is the spiritual potency of Hari – the Lord of this World.
This truth is amplified in Markendya purana at several places:
Chapter 1
50-58. ------------ Even so men are hurled into the whirlpool of attachment, the pit of delusion, through the power of Mahamaya (the Great Illusion), who makes the existence of the world possible. Marvel not at this. This Mahamaya is the Yoganidra, of Vishnu, the Lord of the world.
63-71. She is eternal, embodied as the universe. By her all this is pervaded. ------- The resplendent Lord Brahma extolled the incomparable Goddess of Vishnu, Yoganidra, the queen of cosmos, the supporter of the worlds, the cause of the sustentation and dissolution alike (of the universe).
Note: Goddess of Vishnu
Chapter 5
7. Resolving thus, the devas went to Himavat, lord of the mountains, and there extolled the Devi, who is the illusive power of Vishnu. The devas said:
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14-16. 'Salutations again and again to the Devi who in all beings is called Vishnumaya.
Chapter 11
The Rishi said: --------- The devas said: 3. 'O Devi, you who remove the sufferings of your suppliants, be gracious. Be propitious, O Mother of the whole world. Be gracious, --------. 'You are the power of Vishnu, and have endless valour.
Note: Mother is the source of Lord Vishnu’s maya shakti
Chapter 13
The Rishi said: ------------ The Devi is endowed with such majestic power. By her this world is upheld. Knowledge is similarly conferred by her, the illusive power of Bhagavan Vishnu.
Note Devi is illusive power of Bhagwan Vishnu
Now read more
Chapter 5
11. 'We bow to her who is welfare; we make salutations to her who is prosperity and success. Salutation to the consort of Shiva who is herself the good fortune as well as misfortune of kings.
Note: Consort of Shiva
Chapter 8 Slaying of Raktabija
The Rishi said: ------------- Then Shiva, surrounded by those shaktis of the devas, said to Chandika, 'Let the asuras be killed forthwith by you for my gratification.
Note: Devi kills Raktabija, Dhumrolochana, Sumbha, Nishumbha and others for the gratification of Shiva. Repeat for the gratification of Shiva.
24. And that invincible (Shakti) told Shiva, of dark coloured matted locks, 'Go, my lord, as ambassador to the presence of Sumbha and Nisumbha. ---------- 28. Because that Devi appointed "Shiva" himself as ambassador thenceforth she became renowned in this world as Shiva-duti.
Devi was ordained to fight and demolish all these demons because of a vow of Hers as shown below
Chapter 5
Shumbha wanted to marry Parvati
114. "Wealth, great and beyond compare, you will get by marrying me. Think over this in your mind, and become my wife."'
115-116. Thus told, Durga the adorable and auspicious, by whom this universe is supported, then became serene and said. The Devi said:
117-118. You have spoken truth; nothing false has been uttered by you in this matter. Sumbha is indeed the sovereign of the three worlds and likewise is also Nisumbha.
119. 'But in this matter, how can that which has been promised by me be made false? Hear what promise I had made already out of foolishness.
120. "He who conquers me in battle, removes my pride and is my match in strength shall be my husband."
And finally Devi – Parvati became consort of Shiva – the undefeatable Rudra.
Now again in a translation of Brahma Samhita sloka, Srila Jiva Goswami comments:
”Because He is not different from the Lord, Shiva is independent.
At least Srila Goswamy accepts that Hari and Hara are not different. Although Jiva Goswamy has contorted the translation at several places (e.g. when in slokas “mundane” is not indicated he introduces the word “mundane” or “non-absolute” whenever reference to Devi appears), he is forced to state that Shiva is independent. He is forced since otherwise he will contradict Rig Veda.
This contrasts with Prabhupada, who is alone with a view that Shiva is dependent.
I read a book by Prabhupada, wherein he says that after visiting several Siva, Kali, and Krishna temples in Calcutta, a foreigner commented: Krishna alone is God since it is he who alone plays. Prabhupada gleefully highlighted this comment of the foreigner as a proof that Shiva is demi God. Prabhupada alone does not pay respect to Rig Veda.
Now, finally I furnish a proof from Rig Veda that Rudra is the Self Dependent Lord.
Rig Veda 7.46.2
To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call.
Note: The self dependent God.
Also read:
‘Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father.
Him great and lofty, blissful, undecaying let us call especially as the Sage impels us.’
Note: Blissful, un-decaying, father of the Universe.
Biased purports cannot get precedence over Rig Veda. I still hold: Lord is one. Shiva is Vishnu and Vishnu is Shiva.
Regards,
Atanu
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In Rig Veda, itself Rudra is the overlord. He was also named Shiva -- the auspicious because transformation that He effects (though painful) leads to Good ness -- manifestation of Vishnu.
Agni is Rudra. Indra is Rudra's ancient mind. Soma is Rudra. Aditi and Diti are Rudra's consorts. Parjanya is Rudra. Manyu is Rudra. Vastopati is Rudra. Krsanu is Rudra. Aja-Ekpada is Rudra. The dragon of the Deep is Rudra. Vishnu is Rudra when manifested through the three worlds.
‘Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father.
Him great and lofty, blissful, undecaying let us call especially as the Sage impels us.’
Rig Veda is Hymn to many forms and functions of One Lord.
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Thanks.
The Song Celestial
in The Hinduism Forum
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I wish devotees read this