laksri

Can you clarify, whether your are taking about "marriage in which a spouse of either sex may have more than one mate at the same time"(www.m-w.com) or only husband having more than one wife ? Sorry, if it is indecent to ask such a thing, but because some small pockets of tribes are believed to have adopted other way too.

Is there a "BG AS IT IS" in chineese ? And is it available in the US ? Any pointer is a welcome. [This message has been edited by laksri (edited 01-31-2002).]

I think everybody is on the same boat. I understand it is easier to listen to live lecture than read a book, hope may be such means are possible for everybody. But for us, who attended a discourse is not an option, we can resort to tapes. Surely this is also a way, asking in this forum of loving krishna devotees. I think, any person who has planned for retirement in youth or atleast tommorrow's food today, will be forced to think what next in old age (or some in younger age too). That is where death looks insurmountable. We don't know what is beyond it, this is really where religion comes. It is a path to avoid this confusion. With the blessings of acharyas, and the mercy of Krishna, it is possible to not bother about re-incarnation for ourselves. Anyhow, to understand reincarnation, we have to understand karma. Unfortunately, this word "karma" is used in several senses, like to mean destiny, planetary influences, past sins, so on. What ever it means, we have to first accept two premises. First one, our actions are our own, that is we have "freedom" to choose (note: freedom with quotes, because it is qualified). If we don't agree that we are even free to choose, then we need not worry about anything because we can't do anything about it. Second, every system will have to have some axoims, I mean at some point you have got to stop and start accepting. Depending on merit people accept things. Now that we accept ourselves as agent in some sense of meaning, we have to see the deeds and the mode. Right now for me, writting is the deed and this body is the mode. The supreme lord and the infinite brahman that he is, assumes three states to our deeds. Namely indifference, permissiveness, and encouragment. Let us say for example, first time we do a deed, god is neither encouraging or discouraging. [ But remember only applicable to human and not animals, and above all, god gives scriptures and acharyas to guide us.] Next time you do he is permitting you to do that. You start repeting such class of acts or a particular act, what ever, he starts facilitating that. This is a very surprising form for us, but he gives a long rope. Probobly too long. So we decide our destiny in that sense, we mark the direction and points in a general sense. All deeds (thought,speech,action) if done as per his guidelines to us, then he whom every thing is dependent on, is also happy about our deeds. If we disregard the reason why he gave the body (especially a healthy human being) he is very sad, that even with his great effort to get his sons (remember souls don't have gender so don't bother). It is odd that this "idividuality" delegated to us, is making us think we are really "independent" and disregard his advice. Now, he cannot treat his bad son who misused given property [body,organs,etc] to gamble, as he treats good son, that would be unfair. Such of his pleasure or displeasure works in deciding our ["bodies"] mode in space-time ["how long and when"]. Now, this kind of human body is one mode, it can be some other species, or even different kind of physical body, like demi-gods. This effect of one human life may go on for several (human) years, in some other mode. In the end after exhausting those long tenure, we get a chance in human form, that too only if fortunate with ability to understand good things in life. Simply because of the luring nature of bad things, we may end up again wasting that chance of this valuable human form, only who can break this vicious movement from one mode to another (also called as one body to another, or birth and death). Since this is such a slippery thing, we seem to go in circles, under the effect of karma, it is refered generally as the cycle of birth and death. But modes of pleasure of good deeds is as bad as bad deeds, because enjoyment as a result of it is only temporary. And worse, there is no guarantee that you will not do bad things agin when you are in human form. In the same sense, what we think as punishment or as our suffering in a particualr mode is a part of god's plan for allowing our souls spirutual evolution. So in reality he does only good to his sons. Re-incarnation or next mode is decided by several factors, including whether you complete your good or bad "sentence" and what are your deeds. Since we have so many inumerable lapses, better not to waste our valuable seconds/minutes/hours/days/months/years left for action in this life. Let us find refuge in his holy feet. [This message has been edited by laksri (edited 01-25-2002).]

Importance of grace of god for good environment : Also see, “The unsuccessful yogi, after many, many years of enjoyment on the planets of the pious living entities, is born into a family of righteous people, or into a family of rich aristocracy.” http://www.asitis.com/6/41.html . Purport says, “After prolonged life there, he is sent back again to this planet, to take birth in the family of a righteous brahmana vaisnava or of aristocratic merchants.” And, “Or he takes his birth in a family of transcendentalists who are surely great in wisdom. Verily, such a birth is rare in this world.” http://www.asitis.com/6/42.html Purport has, “Birth in a family of yogis or transcendentalists--those with great wisdom--is praised herein because the child born in such a family receives a spiritual impetus from the very beginning of his life. It is especially the case in the acarya or gosvami families. Such families are very learned and devoted by tradition and training, and thus they become spiritual masters. In India there are many such acarya families, but they have now degenerated due to insufficient education and training.” Varnas not a barrier : O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth--women, vaisyas [merchants], as well as sudras [workers]--can approach the supreme destination. http://www.asitis.com/9/32.html [and is a thread started by another member]. Varnas do not matter for devotee : “Advanced yogis are not very much attracted to the rituals of the scriptures, but they automatically become attracted to the yoga principles, which can elevate them to complete Krsna consciousness, the highest yoga perfection” http://www.asitis.com/6/44.html Purport says, In the Srimad-Bhagavatam (3.33.7), such disregard of Vedic rituals by the advanced transcendentalists is explained as follows: aho bata sva-paco 'to gariyan yaj-jihvagre vartate nama tubhyam tepus tapas te juhuvuh sasnur arya brahmanucur nama grnanti ye te "O my Lord! Persons who chant the holy names of Your Lordship are far, far advanced in spiritual life, even if born in families of dog-eaters. Such chanters have undoubtedly performed all kinds of austerities and sacrifices, bathed in all sacred places, and finished all scriptural studies." Back to question : Now coming back to the verse 4:13, In Bhagavat gItA as it is, Sri Prabupada explained that “According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me” http://www.asitis.com/4/13.html From this, it is very clear that how Lord created these four divisions. Sometimes this is lost in today’s world. Many become like Satyakama, not knowing ones own nature. Great teachers like His Holiness Sri Prabupada, correct the situation by recognizing such people and giving them proper guidance. So this principle is not suitable for ordinary mortals, it is best left to great blessed men. For us caste is simply as it is, based on birth to determine our duties, that is all and nothing more. That is the reason for knowing his caste and nothing more. In the past this was used also to apply shastras indicating different ages and process of different intiations for different castes. But this is expecting too much. Let us see the example set by Lord himself, about his duties ( not some yagna kind of rituals), “After His meditation, the Lord would regularly bathe early in the morning with clear, sanctified water. Then He would change into fresh clothing, cover Himself with a wrapper and then engage Himself in His daily religious functions. Out of His many religious duties, the first was to offer oblations into the sacrificial fire and silently chant the Gayatri mantra. Lord Krsna, as the ideal householder, executed all the religious functions of a householder without deviation. When the sunrise became visible, the Lord would offer specific prayers to the sun-god. The sun-god and other demigods mentioned in the Vedic scriptures are described as different limbs of the body of Lord Krsna, and it is the duty of the householder to offer respects to the demigods and great sages, as well as the forefathers.” http://www.krsnabook.com/ch70.html Also for us it is Krishna and his devotees, and discussing things, which have been lost in kali yuga, is taken care by acharyas send by god. KrishnA. I would like to end this by quoting from Sri Prabupada’s Krishna book, “ While engaged with the brahmanas who were too involved in the performance of Vedic sacrifices, Krsna and Balarama also saw that the cowherd men were preparing a similar sacrifice in order to pacify Indra, the King of heaven, who is responsible for supplying water. As stated in the Caitanya-caritamrta, a devotee of Krsna has strong and firm faith in the understanding that if he is simply engaged in Krsna consciousness and Krsna's transcendental loving service, then he is freed from all other obligations. A pure devotee of Lord Krsna doesn't have to perform any of the ritualistic functions enjoined in the Vedas; nor is he required to worship any demigods.” http://www.krsnabook.com/ch24.html This is a very important principle and is not applicable to anybody, only those in love with Krishna. I have this word caste enough times, as synonymous to duty, hope such a word which guides one duties which are not inferior or superior, but is obligatory, is not such a bad word after all. Be steadfast in yoga, O Arjuna. Perform your duty and abandon all attachment to success or failure. Such evenness of mind is called yoga. http://www.asitis.com/2/48.html [This message has been edited by laksri (edited 01-21-2002).]

There are two different questions here, "Is caste based on birth or something else according to scriptures? " "Is caste the same in usage and practise in the current form?" Since this second question as addressed through an example by you and several others, require a seperate thread especially because of the unacceptable treatment of (human) life. It is in violation of the scriptural eddicts of "ahimsA paramO dharmAh" in thought and deed. And life in human form is itself a big grace, since god becomes more accessible. Everybody is aware krishnA's demonstation of this kArunya as the first principle and even greater than victory or friends. sanjayA was narrating the war to dritarAstrA, on the day of arjunA's vow to kill jayadratha by sunset or else kill himself. dritarAstrA is convinced that guarded by mahArathis he is safe. Especially 11 miles on battlefiled from pandavA front line to jayadratha, as crow flies is going to take forever when you go around fighting. arjunA and lord sri krisnA are getting closer, but sun is also slowly coming down. Now krishna changes the course of charriot and goes away a little and gives rest and water to the horses. dritarAstra tells sanjayA now, that he is sure of victory for pAndavAs, not after he saw lord's viswa rUpam but now, because he knows that kArunyAh is the highest dharmA. So there is no escaping from the fact that history has been brutal for especially fourth varnA. But simply beacuse of some historical mistakes, we cannot change scriptures as a means to undo the mistakes, it can only be done by honest correction. Anyhow let us see what is in there in scriptures. Now whether caste is based on birth or something else according to scriptures ? purusha suktA, purva mimAmsa, upanishads, smrithis, ithihAsa everything mention it, and most of the times, it is based on birth. Birth does matter. All three varnAs do have thread and hence called twice born. Fourth varnA does not have. I am not discriminating, or having any bias, this is what is there. Also it matters in aspects corncerning marriage. [Manu goes much beyond to give names of cross-varnA for different permutations, may it is meaningless when even gotra is unknown to few people, since introductory apivandhanam is not common]. Everybody knows the stroy of viswamitra trying to become a brahma-rishi. So it such a unimaginable thing for ordinary mortals. sri sItA's father and reknowned disciple of yagnavalkyA, he himself pursued his duties. In recent times, Lord krishnA told his devotee arjunA to do his kshatriyA duty. The whole of bagavat gIta, is around his duty to fight. Why didn't krishnA find one of his most dear devotee eligible for some other varnic duties ? The supreme Lord sri krishnA tells arjunA, my dear bhakat, it me who created the castes (warning to guys who think superior or inferior, because everything by krishna is superior). It is your caste duty to protect dharmA. Arjuna is saying, lord this is a destructive duty, though unlike bombing civilians, he only killing his enemies in field. But Arjuna is concerned also for soldiers against bhishmA or dronA or karnA or duroyOdhanA. More so of the desitutes and orphans of this great destructive war. Since it not like switching jobs, and is based on birth alone, krishnA is spending his time to tell arjunA of his duty, otherwise, he could have told, either you change your caste or fight. Though arjunA was not for fight, that is he did not suggest reason, because it was not possible. The supreme Lord sri krishnA, mentions that drOnA's end was because a brahmin should not fight in war, though he teaches. Drona himself knew this principle, when he send pAndavas, for fighting drupadA, instead of himself. With regarding to parasurAma, it was because the kings where explotative for generations and generations. Lord mercifully in his avatar, to save the people from such very cruel kings, eliminate 3 times eliminated 7 (21?) generations of kings around the earth. (no swiss banks, tax havens or island countries to hide mr.marcos). Same applies to karnA, he could not fight till bhishmA's death, because though bhishmA knew of his origin, he adopted practicality, because political science is so. <u>Because this business of becoming different varnA is based on superior-inferior mindset. Every varnA is holy.</u> nam AzwAr the kula pathi or foremost is a velAla, sudra. He is adored by thousands of vaishnavAs. Most of the twelve AzhwArs where not brahmins. In fact tirupAn azhwAr was carried to the temple on the shoulder of a brahmnA. But I should add he never recited vedAs. In fact, brahmins stopped reciting it when he came towards them. KshatriyAs, vaiyAs can learn. But can you say they are deprived of god, no. Everybody has dharmA, arthA, kAma and mokshA. Each follow their capacity and duty identified by birth . It is in numbering, brahmnA is called the first, ...so forth. This has nothing to do with anything else, because if scriptures if scripture is considered to be biased, then can go further, it can also say brahmin is better than sudra directly, why don't we find a single line like that. Unfortunately punishment has been taken to be the bias for brahmins, why not see the unfairness to the duties. Why are they alone required to go through, long strenous pratice of scriptures as obligatory, are they not human beings. Are they not human to feel to have some luxury, no. Sorry that is the brutality or the justness, they are to be away from material comforts. Actually all purAnas and smrithi praise the king and give him sanctity since he alone protects all the people. He is considered an amsa of god because beings take refuge in him. There is a story in tamil where a chozA king even killed his son to do justice to cow when the speeding prince killed the only calf. Most works are decorations in honour of a king, and two most famous avataras are rAma and krisnA, as kshatriyAs. Ok coming back to caste, there are some restrictions because of the nature of "work", on how a person needs to interact in a society, that is normal. Like you don't expect a person working in field, and hence soaked let us say in water come into a building, where as a singer may be able to do so. (Let alone how you feel of people who enter the house on rainy day without a door mat). This "norms" for cleaniness has nothing to do with caste. Even in one's own house, one does not shave in the kitchen. It has nothing to with religion, it is hygeine. But that does not mean you speak with disrepect to a cleaner or treat him in ways which are demeaning. Nor is he expected to be hugged as is. There has to be some common sense based on station, propriety and dharmA. Now, can there changes in duties. Yes we have to refer to dharma shatras, which says in bad times etc man can change his duties. But this is not meant to meant forever, and surely no exemption because of kaliyugA, the poor brahmins are expect to do the same, whichever yugA it is. manuh->manushah->man, what a injustice, they should make some provisions, in this age when "man is not human". Can somebody change caste? Yes. You can be outcasted, that is not considered in that caste. It does not mean you are out of all castes. This is because of failure of performance of obligatory duties or performance of heinous acts. So you will never find a body of people conducting tests or evaluation on people to determine their caste by some other means. Nor you find mechanism to keep following a person on that evalution in every point of life to check that. That is why almost all scriptures treat caste synonymous to birth. So for all practical purpose it is determined by birth. BUT THERE IS NOTHING SUPERIOR OR INFERIOR OF ANY CASTE. And so there is nothing superior in others duty, ones own duty is most important. Also it is normal too have balancing rules to sustain a minority disposition in a population, because it is hard to find people who would want to spend their time for the sake of knowledge and gain nothing materially. Anyhow, our focus is sri krishnA and vaishnavisim is higher than brahminism, kshatriysm, vaishism and sudrism if they exist in any form. Though some rites are also performed only by brahmins, daily duties is a must for three varnAs in all four stations of life. That is why sage vyasA tells, extolls kaliyugA, sudrA and women. Oh god, hope all this seen from in the sense it is written. It is not written with any other intention than sharing some thoughts, with friendliness to all divine, human and all other forms of life. [This message has been edited by laksri (edited 01-20-2002).]

Let us be fair to scientists, come on after all they have 10000 nukes, let us give them some respect. Did scientists sweat, race and fight in the human genome project to understand cats better? I don't believe religious dogmas which are based on birth. Why should things be like that ? God, unfortunately, human beings are by products of the instructions of genetic material. Manu knows what his kids will be, because he saw what he was. Honest guy. Heh come on, science never differentiates. May be little bit used by moneyed ones in pre natal, A.Semination etc. But factory babies are on the way, man. They will laugh at people who laughed at Manu. The laugh goes on, till you reach the 5th chapter in SB. Future is only a mirror, of WWII fought by "manu dumped world", killing more people and maiming and giving untold suffering to generations in a day, than what Manu could not achieve by laws in the history. Brutal manu laws, are our own imangination of a warning. Remember small print statutory warnings will be mis understood as sold to semi blind people, in consonance with governments, to make $$. This will be the interpretation after couple of nukes are thrown around and archeologists look at de radiated packs of cigarates. Anyhow, coming back, forget genes, that will take years and will be chained by restrictions by congress. Now inequality does not exist. Oh it will, inequality exists whether we like or not, that is karma, some are smart, some are good in sports, some are challenged. Soon, quotas will be increased to give jobs to everybody, when jobs become difficult in prolonged bad times. Manu did not go that far, he did not consider such factors, he merely divided intellectual and teaching, physical and sacrificing, enterprising and skilled, unskilled and servicing in broad terms to stabilise the dispositions of human tendencies based on makeup.Distribution will be 5%, 15%, 50%, 30%. or similar. If the balance is not maintained, by 15% by adopting for the welfare of everybody, things will go bad or when things go out of control 15% will lose control, which the nature of kali yuga. simply because pedestrian rules are not followed in populated centers, does it mean it is not there ? same way simply because it is not followed does not mean Manu samhita is not applicable. It is very much enforced by the laws of rebirth. Now, Suppose you had born in situation where you accepted Manu Samhita in a previous yuga, Is there any meaning if you felt dejected today, about it. You would be even more confused if you knew that you will hate yourself later, for liking it earlier. So I think the best way is not to hate yourself. Because it is self condradicting and hence self destructive. I think, the problem is hate of some laws, which is not enforceble, why because rule followers are miniscule. If you break a law you don't like a law, if your neighbour breaks a law you like the law ? Law exist, it is enforced especially, who ignore the law and krishna. because it is difficult to follow the laws, better follow krishna. As you pointed out the essence is focus on krishna, rest is meaningless only then. I agree, but how many can be like you ? Give others the time and chance to appreciate. [This message has been edited by laksri (edited 01-18-2002).]

Let us be fair to scientists, come on after all they have 10000 nukes, let us give them some respect. Did scientists sweat, race and fight in the human genome project to understand cats better? I don't believe religious dogmas which are based on birth. Why should things be like that ? God, unfortunately, human beings are by products of the instructions of genetic material. Manu knows what his kids will be, because he saw what he was. Honest guy. Heh come on, science never differentiates. May be little bit used by moneyed ones in pre natal, A.Semination etc. But factory babies are on the way, man. They will laugh at people who laughed at Manu. The laugh goes on, till you reach the 5th chapter in SB. Future is only a mirror, of WWII fought by "manu dumped world", killing more people and maiming and giving untold suffering to generations in a day, than what Manu could not achieve by laws in the history. Brutal manu laws, are our own imangination of a warning. Remember small print statutory warnings will be mis understood as sold to semi blind people, in consonance with governments, to make $$. This will be the interpretation after couple of nukes are thrown around and archeologists look at de radiated packs of cigarates. Anyhow, coming back, forget genes, that will take years and will be chained by restrictions by congress. Now inequality does not exist. Oh it will, inequality exists whether we like or not, that is karma, some are smart, some are good in sports, some are challenged. Soon, quotas will be increased to give jobs to everybody, when jobs become difficult in prolonged bad times. Manu did not go that far, he did not consider such factors, he merely divided intellectual and teaching, physical and sacrificing, enterprising and skilled, unskilled and servicing in broad terms to stabilise the dispositions of human tendencies based on makeup.Distribution will be 5%, 15%, 50%, 30%. or similar. If the balance is not maintained, by 15% by adopting for the welfare of everybody, things will go bad or when things go out of control 15% will lose control, which the nature of kali yuga. simply because pedestrian rules are not followed in populated centers, does it mean it is not there ? same way simply because it is not followed does not mean Manu samhita is not applicable. It is very much enforced by the laws of rebirth. Now, Suppose you had born in situation where you accepted Manu Samhita in a previous yuga, Is there any meaning if you felt dejected today, about it. You would be even more confused if you knew that you will hate yourself later, for liking it earlier. So I think the best way is not to hate yourself. Because it is self condradicting and hence self destructive. I think, the problem is hate of some laws, which is not enforceble, why because rule followers are miniscule. If you break a law you don't like a law, if your neighbour breaks a law you like the law ? Law exist, it is enforced especially, who ignore the law and krishna. because it is difficult to follow the laws, better follow krishna. As you pointed out the essence is focus on krishna, rest is meaningless only then. I agree, but how many can be like you ? Give others the time and chance to appreciate. [This message has been edited by laksri (edited 01-18-2002).]

I would like to point out, that because of the change of course of rivers, it is not possible to even determine, pandavAs hastinapura so easily. balarAma walks along the saraswati river, mahAbhArat describes the holy thitAs, that he visited along it and else where. Surprisingly you will find hastinApurA along the river called gangA. (Can you check bhagavatA and tell me.) [This message has been edited by laksri (edited 01-17-2002).]

I think, we should not make sweeping decisions without giving time for research and proper analysis. rAmAyanA states millions of people where living. mAhAbharata states so. It is not correct to say, "what we like is ok, but what we don't like is corrupted version ". BTW the way, it is udipi chieftian and not chEra chieftian incharge of cooking. It is a big job to organize to manage many chefs, who manged cooks. kauravas and pandavas, though they fought the war, they where ready to partake and organize cooking through common resources (debit hastinapura and riches brought by kings while coming ). pAndyan king fought on the side of kauravas (owing alleigience to throne of hastinApurA). Lord sri krishnA used to indicate to the cook's how much to prepare ( how many akshOnis to cook for) by eating the number of cashews everyday before in the camp, thouse many chashew aksonis will be killed in the war subsequent day. Remember cooking is done by males. Women wher only in nursing and service. There where actually lot of doctors and other "humanitarian" neutral teams, who are mentioned during the course of the war. But, they where completely overwhelmed by the magnitude of destruction, and sheer numbers. It was for all practical purposes non existent. Any how, the scale is true , though unbelievably large scale. There are enough evidences of it. Lastly, there are authentic sources of mahAbhArathA available. When I say authentic, it has earned the approval of the succesive masters who lived through last thousand years. It is not something, that is going to be offered to us, but one has to seek it. May be we don't like it, we are used to being pampered, being used to information at our mouse clicks. Information gets lost due to our lack of understanding in addition to the than lack of documents. I share your concern for correctness, and authenticity. But there are somethings, that can be retrived from books, which are fading in mueseums, ignored in goverment houses, some locked in colonial documents bundles (read UK foreign office and berlin centre) and private collectors of indology in europe. I was surprised that even an american scholar in maratha territory in the 1800's could get 3 copies of surya siddhanta ( appox. 5th century book with commentary, ofcourse he could get people to translate too). The number of original copies of purAnAs and itihAsAs procured by oriental specialists from europe is mind boggling. Above all, I recd. a email today from a person involved with digitizing old documents, that he got 3 17th and 18th century books from private collection. Great God, government has forsaked us for now, it depends on individuals and groups. [This message has been edited by laksri (edited 01-17-2002).]

Please see even kAmsutra, it mentions the same, first one should study and deliberate, why when who has told what, what is the meaning. simply getting upset will not help the situation. Anyhow, a very important principle, is give honorable persons the respect, even if you diagree (right now). May be your, mine, our understanding will change tommorrow. Since many of our ancestors given respect, so let us appreciate the intelligence of our ancestors first and give them the benefit of doubt. By taking shallow view of history, to judge eons by lifetime is itself a challenge. I was reading in a purAna, how in kali yuga, fire will burn upside down, which I thought were the works of crazy. slowly i saw the context to releaise the translation is about tube bulbs hanging upside down. So please understand, words have different meaning in different eras, because of the context of use. also when aryabhatta was mentioning some 1500 years ago in astronomical treatise about earth going around sun, the succesive commentators thought the great guy was slipping. Can you imagine being without a car - to walk where you want to go, live few hourse without electricity - no lights, ac , heater, no hot water in pipes. Then how can we imagine life even few centuries back. Imagine law and order, social condition, and how the civilization endured to give a chance to us. What made them tick, same rules as now ? surely not. [This message has been edited by laksri (edited 01-15-2002).]

Please see even kAmsutra, it mentions the same, first one should study and deliberate, why when who has told what, what is the meaning. simply getting upset will not help the situation. Anyhow, a very important principle, is give honorable persons the respect, even if you diagree (right now). May be your, mine, our understanding will change tommorrow. Since many of our ancestors given respect, so let us appreciate the intelligence of our ancestors first and give them the benefit of doubt. By taking shallow view of history, to judge eons by lifetime is itself a challenge. I was reading in a purAna, how in kali yuga, fire will burn upside down, which I thought were the works of crazy. slowly i saw the context to releaise the translation is about tube bulbs hanging upside down. So please understand, words have different meaning in different eras, because of the context of use. also when aryabhatta was mentioning some 1500 years ago in astronomical treatise about earth going around sun, the succesive commentators thought the great guy was slipping. Can you imagine being without a car - to walk where you want to go, live few hourse without electricity - no lights, ac , heater, no hot water in pipes. Then how can we imagine life even few centuries back. Imagine law and order, social condition, and how the civilization endured to give a chance to us. What made them tick, same rules as now ? surely not. [This message has been edited by laksri (edited 01-15-2002).]

I am sorry if I have hurt anybody, the better word would have been, bias or prejudice.

The problem with this "Aryan" term is itself a misuse. It has been used almost exclusively to mean, "worthy of one" "honourable", "respectable", "noble", "of a good family", "excellent", "wise", "suitable" even in the rig veda. I humbly request anybody to give me any instances where it may have other meanings. There is one derivative meaning, the country of pious. See the most benovalent and the foremost among men, whom every person, owes gratitude, the son of sUrya, Manu says, "That (country) which (lies) between the Himavat and the Vindhya (mountains) to the east of Prayaga and to the west of Vinasana (the place where the river Sarasvati disappears) is called Madhyadesa (the central region). But (the tract) between those two mountains (Himavat and the Vindhya ), which (extends) to the eastern and the western seas, the wise call Aryavarta (the country of the Aryans)." When did the Himalyas and Vindhyas get shifted to central asia, racism can try. This holy book quoted by all bhasyam writers in their brahma sutra is not respected by some, because of their person opinions. So, how can you find an Aryan invasion of India, unless they invade themselves ? [This message has been edited by laksri (edited 01-13-2002).]

Neither I am an expert in Manu or Sri Caitanya, but let us see the spirit of the verses. Since this was written for all ages, it is very important for us to resolve this question. Especially to hint that sri manu as being cruel, is unjust. Let us see about compassion : "If a blow is struck against men or animals in order to (give them) pain, (the judge) shall inflict a fine in proportion to the amount of injury (caused). " Example of shared responsibility and unbias to rich: "If the driver is skilful (but negligent), he alone shall be fined; if the driver is unskilful, also the (owner) occupants [who is expected to be careful in hiring the driver] of the carriage (also) shall be each fined one hundred (panas)." Warning to power abusing kings : " Know that a king who heeds not the rules (of the law), who is an atheist, and rapacious, who does not protect (his weak subjects, but) devours them, will sink low (after death)." Thank god [read as krishna], kings don't rule, other than as parlimentary monarchy and or may be countries like Bhutan, so they can live without being concerned about human right abuses. But manu tells more, which regular rule books may not say, "For by punishing the wicked and by favouring the virtuous, kings are constantly sanctified, just as twice-born men by sacrifices." But who cares, god [krsna], let's think first of this life, even if it means hell in next. Similar to governer/president's pardon : "A king who desires welfare may (mostly)forgive litigants, infants, aged and sick men (and helpless), who inveigh against him." i.e "He who, being abused by men in pain, pardons (them), will in reward of that (act) be exalted in heaven; but he who, (proud) of his kingly state, forgives them not, will for that (reason) sink into hell." Ok now let us come to the difficult portions, For example, let us say theft etc, was a very very serious crime, much more than injuring etc or not paying debt etc. Due to the extraordinary emphasis on theft, it is stated, "An offence (of this description), which is committed in the presence (of the owner) and with violence, will be robbery; if (it is committed) in his absence, it will be theft; likewise if (the possession of) anything is denied after it has been taken." "On that man who may steal (any of) the above-mentioned articles, when they are prepared for (use), let the king inflict the first (or lowest) amercement [fine]; likewise on him who may steal (a sacred) fire out of the room (in which it is kept)." "In addition, with whatever limb a thief in any way commits (an offence) against men, even of that (the king) shall deprive him in order to prevent repetitions of the crime." But even beyond king is not even given the option in rape. It is dealt with very severely, "This rule does not apply to the wives of actors and singers, nor (of) those who live on (the intrigues of) their own (wives); for such men send their wives (to others) or, concealing themselves, allow them to hold criminal intercourse." "Yet he who secretly converses with such women, or with female slaves kept by one (master), and with female medicants, shall be compelled to pay a small fine." "He who violates an unwilling maiden shall instantly suffer corporal punishment; but a man who enjoys a willing maiden shall not suffer corporal punishment, if (his caste be) the acceptable with hers (or as hers)." There are other considerations, which are out of preview of our discussion, like castes. Because Krishna says he vreated the castes, so manu is strict with it, especially here. "For by (adultery) caused by a mixture of the castes (varna) among men; thence (follows) sin, which cuts up even the roots and causes the destruction of everything. " But let us stick to justness of pushnishment, which is our topic, you will rarely find severe punishment mentioned, if it is, it is when it is too henious and repetitive ( or were considered once severe). The conditions required by those are also as extreme and <u>history shows, it was not required to be followed</u> before, since it is not record so in history, while other kinds of punishment where. It was a powerful like a deterent, much better than nuclear threats to bring terrorists to justice or loose innocent people and have tribunals in secrecy. Because this is a guide book, it is comprehensive and smaller compared to long lawyer centric constitutions. So to make judgements like these on very sensitive writs, one has to be careful. Though I am not trying to justify any rules or the rule book, one has to understand 1) that large sections are meaningful if not applicable after many eons as guide 2) even developed countries have corporal punishment to this date 3) some systems have very severe treatment, which is nothing in comparision 4) most systems give a raw deal to aliens compared to locals, which is absent in this This system has worked so beatifully, atleast till 10th century through local self governments. Surely, either we are not suitable for it now or we do not understand it or may be we are at a point in development of civilization where it makes no sense any more. What ever is the case, there is lot worth in understanding, especially to appreciate sri chaitanya's teachings better in its light. I do not challenge anybody to show anything though. [sorry pun intended] Sorry, just a way of registering a humble protest to strong words, in defence of the first man of the human race, - call it genetic self defence. [This message has been edited by laksri (edited 01-13-2002).]

Neither I am an expert in Manu or Sri Caitanya, but let us see the spirit of the verses. Since this was written for all ages, it is very important for us to resolve this question. Especially to hint that sri manu as being cruel, is unjust. Let us see about compassion : "If a blow is struck against men or animals in order to (give them) pain, (the judge) shall inflict a fine in proportion to the amount of injury (caused). " Example of shared responsibility and unbias to rich: "If the driver is skilful (but negligent), he alone shall be fined; if the driver is unskilful, also the (owner) occupants [who is expected to be careful in hiring the driver] of the carriage (also) shall be each fined one hundred (panas)." Warning to power abusing kings : " Know that a king who heeds not the rules (of the law), who is an atheist, and rapacious, who does not protect (his weak subjects, but) devours them, will sink low (after death)." Thank god [read as krishna], kings don't rule, other than as parlimentary monarchy and or may be countries like Bhutan, so they can live without being concerned about human right abuses. But manu tells more, which regular rule books may not say, "For by punishing the wicked and by favouring the virtuous, kings are constantly sanctified, just as twice-born men by sacrifices." But who cares, god [krsna], let's think first of this life, even if it means hell in next. Similar to governer/president's pardon : "A king who desires welfare may (mostly)forgive litigants, infants, aged and sick men (and helpless), who inveigh against him." i.e "He who, being abused by men in pain, pardons (them), will in reward of that (act) be exalted in heaven; but he who, (proud) of his kingly state, forgives them not, will for that (reason) sink into hell." Ok now let us come to the difficult portions, For example, let us say theft etc, was a very very serious crime, much more than injuring etc or not paying debt etc. Due to the extraordinary emphasis on theft, it is stated, "An offence (of this description), which is committed in the presence (of the owner) and with violence, will be robbery; if (it is committed) in his absence, it will be theft; likewise if (the possession of) anything is denied after it has been taken." "On that man who may steal (any of) the above-mentioned articles, when they are prepared for (use), let the king inflict the first (or lowest) amercement [fine]; likewise on him who may steal (a sacred) fire out of the room (in which it is kept)." "In addition, with whatever limb a thief in any way commits (an offence) against men, even of that (the king) shall deprive him in order to prevent repetitions of the crime." But even beyond king is not even given the option in rape. It is dealt with very severely, "This rule does not apply to the wives of actors and singers, nor (of) those who live on (the intrigues of) their own (wives); for such men send their wives (to others) or, concealing themselves, allow them to hold criminal intercourse." "Yet he who secretly converses with such women, or with female slaves kept by one (master), and with female medicants, shall be compelled to pay a small fine." "He who violates an unwilling maiden shall instantly suffer corporal punishment; but a man who enjoys a willing maiden shall not suffer corporal punishment, if (his caste be) the acceptable with hers (or as hers)." There are other considerations, which are out of preview of our discussion, like castes. Because Krishna says he vreated the castes, so manu is strict with it, especially here. "For by (adultery) caused by a mixture of the castes (varna) among men; thence (follows) sin, which cuts up even the roots and causes the destruction of everything. " But let us stick to justness of pushnishment, which is our topic, you will rarely find severe punishment mentioned, if it is, it is when it is too henious and repetitive ( or were considered once severe). The conditions required by those are also as extreme and <u>history shows, it was not required to be followed</u> before, since it is not record so in history, while other kinds of punishment where. It was a powerful like a deterent, much better than nuclear threats to bring terrorists to justice or loose innocent people and have tribunals in secrecy. Because this is a guide book, it is comprehensive and smaller compared to long lawyer centric constitutions. So to make judgements like these on very sensitive writs, one has to be careful. Though I am not trying to justify any rules or the rule book, one has to understand 1) that large sections are meaningful if not applicable after many eons as guide 2) even developed countries have corporal punishment to this date 3) some systems have very severe treatment, which is nothing in comparision 4) most systems give a raw deal to aliens compared to locals, which is absent in this This system has worked so beatifully, atleast till 10th century through local self governments. Surely, either we are not suitable for it now or we do not understand it or may be we are at a point in development of civilization where it makes no sense any more. What ever is the case, there is lot worth in understanding, especially to appreciate sri chaitanya's teachings better in its light. I do not challenge anybody to show anything though. [sorry pun intended] Sorry, just a way of registering a humble protest to strong words, in defence of the first man of the human race, - call it genetic self defence. [This message has been edited by laksri (edited 01-13-2002).]