Raguraman

Hare Krishna,

Personaly I have found an average American is more polite and perhaps more compassionate than an average Indian(my personal opinion).

Hare Krishna,

I find the translation in the following website unsatisfactory. Can anyone translate the following verses from Rig-Veda. Also I find that Goddess Lakshmi is speaking here as she says that her abode is the ocean.

http://www.intratext.com/IXT/SAN0010/_PRI.HTM

Rig Veda - 10:125

<font color="red">

ahaM rudrebhirvasubhishcarAmyahamAdityairutavishvadevaiH

ahaM mitrAvaruNobhA bibharmyahamindrAgnIahamashvinobhA

ahaM somamAhanasaM bibharmyahaM tvaSTAramutapUSaNaM bhagam

ahaM dadhAmi draviNaM haviSmatesuprAvye yajamAnAya sunvate

ahaM rASTrI saMgamanI vasUnAM cikituSI prathamAyajñiyAnAm

tAM mA devA vyadadhuH purutrAbhUristhAtrAM bhUryAveshayantIm

mayA so annamatti yo vipashyati yaH prANiti ya IMshRNotyuktam

amantavo mAM ta upa kSiyanti shrudhishruta shraddhivaM te vadAmi

ahameva svayamidaM vadAmi juSTaM devebhirutamAnuSebhiH

yaM kAmaye taM\-tamugraM kRNomi tambrahmANaM taM RSiM taM sumedhAm

ahaM rudrAya dhanurA tanomi brahmadviSe sharave hantavAu

ahaM janAya samadaM kRNomyahaM dyAvApRthivI Avivesha

ahaM suve pitaramasya mUrdhan mama yonirapsvantaH samudre

tato vi tiSThe bhuvanAnu vishvotAmUM dyAMvarSmaNopa spRshAmi

ahameva vAta iva pra vAmyArabhamANA bhuvanAni vishvA

paro divA para enA pRthivyaitAvatI mahinA saM babhUva </font color>

Hare Krishna,

May be God is capable of simultaneous multitasking etc.....

Every spark is itself complete. Remember the SRUTI

Om purnamadah purnamidam purnat purnamudacyate |

purnasya purnamadaya purnamevavasisyate |

That is complete, this too is complete; A complete thing has evolved out of the other complete thing; and yet Even taking a complete thing out of the complete, what remains is also complete.

Hare Krishna,

May be God is capable of simultaneous multitasking etc.....

Every spark is itself complete. Remember the SRUTI

Om purnamadah purnamidam purnat purnamudacyate |

purnasya purnamadaya purnamevavasisyate |

That is complete, this too is complete; A complete thing has evolved out of the other complete thing; and yet Even taking a complete thing out of the complete, what remains is also complete.

Hare Krishna,

Narayana and Krishna, being the same Supreme Person, possess the same transcendental qualities. It is only in the Krishna aspect that He chooses to manifest certain unique qualities to His devotees due to their particular nature of attraction to Him. Vishnu does not perform rasa-lila with the Gopis, but Krishna does. This is a unique quality of Krishna which is not manifested by Narayana. In this way, the Gaudiya's have explained the unique position of Krishna as "possessing" certain qualities which Narayana apparently doesn't possess, though in reality He is simply not manifesting these qualities due to the bhava of His devotees.

 

 

 

This is how I understood Gaudiya Vaishnavism from the begining. Lord Krishna's avatar is called Purna, as only this avatar manifests all qualities of Lord Narayana and so Lord Krishna's form is called as SVARUPA of GOD.

I don't understand why HKs keep misinterpreting as though Lord Krishna is greater than Lord Narayana. Such statements are blasphemous.

Hare Krishna,

Narayana and Krishna, being the same Supreme Person, possess the same transcendental qualities. It is only in the Krishna aspect that He chooses to manifest certain unique qualities to His devotees due to their particular nature of attraction to Him. Vishnu does not perform rasa-lila with the Gopis, but Krishna does. This is a unique quality of Krishna which is not manifested by Narayana. In this way, the Gaudiya's have explained the unique position of Krishna as "possessing" certain qualities which Narayana apparently doesn't possess, though in reality He is simply not manifesting these qualities due to the bhava of His devotees.

 

 

 

This is how I understood Gaudiya Vaishnavism from the begining. Lord Krishna's avatar is called Purna, as only this avatar manifests all qualities of Lord Narayana and so Lord Krishna's form is called as SVARUPA of GOD.

I don't understand why HKs keep misinterpreting as though Lord Krishna is greater than Lord Narayana. Such statements are blasphemous.

Hare Krishna,

I am happy you visited that holy place.

Infact when I visited Tirupati with my father, I was sad that my mother was not with me to see the Lord. Just after a few days we visited Thennangur with my mother. It was Saturday if I remember it right. On Saturdays the Deity is dressed like Venkaterswara of Tirupati and there my mother also had Darshan of Lord as I wished. Lo and behold his mercy. The priest and his son over there are great devotees of Lord, atleast that is what I felt as both of them encoraged us and other devotees to raise our hands above our head and sing the names of the Lord.

Thennangur

Hare Krishna,

om sarvesam svasti bhavatu

sarvesmsantir bhavatu

sarvesam purnam bhavatu

sarvesam mangalam bhavatu

sarve bhavantu sukhinah

sarve santu niramayah

sarve bhadrani pasyantu

ma kascidduhkha bhag bhavet

om asato ma satgamaya

tamaso ma jyotirgamaya

mrtyorma amrtam gamaya

Om purnamadah purnamidam purnat purnamudacyate |

purnasya purnamadaya purnamevavasisyate |

Om santih santih santih |

May all be happy, peaceful and fulfilled; may everyone enjoy auspiciousness.

May all be happy, may all be free from illness. May all see only what is good.

May no one be subject to sorrow.

Lead us from the unreal to the real, from darkness to light, from belief in mortality

to the realisation of immortality.

That is complete, this too is complete; A complete thing has evolved out of the other complete thing; and yet Even taking a complete thing out of the complete, what remains is also complete.

Hare Krishna,

Om purnamadah purnamidam purnat purnamudacyate |

purnasya purnamadaya purnamevavasisyate |

Om santih santih santih |

That is complete, this too is complete; A complete thing has evolved out of the other complete thing; and yet Even taking a complete thing out of the complete, what remains is also complete.

This is in reference to various avatars of Lord like Matsya etc.

This SRUTHI says that every avatar of LORD that comes out of his MULARUPA is as complete as the MULARUPA or SVARUPA.

Hare Krishna,

Om purnamadah purnamidam purnat purnamudacyate |

purnasya purnamadaya purnamevavasisyate |

Om santih santih santih |

That is complete, this too is complete; A complete thing has evolved out of the other complete thing; and yet Even taking a complete thing out of the complete, what remains is also complete.

This is in reference to various avatars of Lord like Matsya etc.

This SRUTHI says that every avatar of LORD that comes out of his MULARUPA is as complete as the MULARUPA or SVARUPA.

Hare Krishna,

I would suggest reading Brahma Samhita fully with the purport. They clearly say, according to my knowledge, that Visnu is not different from Krishna. They are all the same entitiy. This SVARUPA of GOD is immutable. They do not disintegrate and become different things. They remain the same identical entity always.

Anything that disintegrates does not exist anymore as cause and exists only as effect or series of effects. That is it has changed and so is not eternal.

Eventhough Brahma samhita or for the matter Panchratra texts say that Vasudeva becomes different things it simply means that LORD takes different manifestations. According to SVARUPA they are all IDENTICAL.

http://www.iskcon.org/sastra/f_bs.html

Part 1

TEXT 10

saktiman purusah so 'yam

linga-rupi mahesvarah

tasminn avirabhul linge

maha-visnur jagat-patih

WORD FOR WORD

saktiman--joined to his female consort; purusah--person; sah--he; ayam--this; linga-rupi--in the form of the male generating organ; maha-isvarah--Sambhu, the lord of this mundane world; tasmin--in that; avirabhut--manifested; linge-- in the manifested emblem; maha-visnuh--Maha-Visnu; jagat-patih--the Lord of the world.

TRANSLATION

The person embodying the material causal principle, viz., the great lord of this mundane world [Mahesvaral Sambhu, in the form of the male generating organ, is joined to his female consort the limited energy [Maya] as the efficient causal principle. The Lord of the world Maha-Visnu is manifest in him by His subjective portion in the form of His glance.

PURPORT

In the transcendental atmosphere (para-vyoma), where spiritual majesty preponderates, there is present Sri Narayana who is not different from Krsna. Maha-Sankarsana, subjective plenary facsimile of the extended personality of Sri Narayana, is also the divine plenary portion of the propagatory embodiment of Sri Krsna. By the power of His spiritual energy a plenary subjective portion of Him, eternally reposing in the neutral stream of Viraja forming the boundary between the spiritual and mundane realms, casts His glance, at creation, unto the limited shadow potency, Maya, who is located far away from Himself. Thereupon Sambhu, lord of pradhana embodying the substantive principles of all material entities, who is the same as Rudra, the dim reflection of the Supreme Lord's own divine glance, consummates his intercourse with Maya, the efficient mundane causal principle. But he can do nothing independently of the energy of Maha-Visnu representing the direct spiritual power of Krsna. Therefore, the principle of mahat, or the perverted cognitive faculty, is produced only when the subjective plenary portion of Krsna, viz., the prime divine avatara Maha-Visnu who is the subjective portion of Sankarsana, Himself the subjective portion of Krsna, is propitious towards the active mutual endeavors of Maya, Siva's consort (sakti), and pradhana or the principle of substantive mundane causality. Agreeably to the initiative of Maha-Visnu the consort of Siva creates successively the mundane ego (ahankara), the five mundane elements (bhutas) viz., space etc., their attributes (tan-matros) and the limited senses of the conditioned soul (jiva). The constituent particles, in the form of pencils of

Hare Krishna,

I would suggest reading Brahma Samhita fully with the purport. They clearly say, according to my knowledge, that Visnu is not different from Krishna. They are all the same entitiy. This SVARUPA of GOD is immutable. They do not disintegrate and become different things. They remain the same identical entity always.

Anything that disintegrates does not exist anymore as cause and exists only as effect or series of effects. That is it has changed and so is not eternal.

Eventhough Brahma samhita or for the matter Panchratra texts say that Vasudeva becomes different things it simply means that LORD takes different manifestations. According to SVARUPA they are all IDENTICAL.

http://www.iskcon.org/sastra/f_bs.html

Part 1

TEXT 10

saktiman purusah so 'yam

linga-rupi mahesvarah

tasminn avirabhul linge

maha-visnur jagat-patih

WORD FOR WORD

saktiman--joined to his female consort; purusah--person; sah--he; ayam--this; linga-rupi--in the form of the male generating organ; maha-isvarah--Sambhu, the lord of this mundane world; tasmin--in that; avirabhut--manifested; linge-- in the manifested emblem; maha-visnuh--Maha-Visnu; jagat-patih--the Lord of the world.

TRANSLATION

The person embodying the material causal principle, viz., the great lord of this mundane world [Mahesvaral Sambhu, in the form of the male generating organ, is joined to his female consort the limited energy [Maya] as the efficient causal principle. The Lord of the world Maha-Visnu is manifest in him by His subjective portion in the form of His glance.

PURPORT

In the transcendental atmosphere (para-vyoma), where spiritual majesty preponderates, there is present Sri Narayana who is not different from Krsna. Maha-Sankarsana, subjective plenary facsimile of the extended personality of Sri Narayana, is also the divine plenary portion of the propagatory embodiment of Sri Krsna. By the power of His spiritual energy a plenary subjective portion of Him, eternally reposing in the neutral stream of Viraja forming the boundary between the spiritual and mundane realms, casts His glance, at creation, unto the limited shadow potency, Maya, who is located far away from Himself. Thereupon Sambhu, lord of pradhana embodying the substantive principles of all material entities, who is the same as Rudra, the dim reflection of the Supreme Lord's own divine glance, consummates his intercourse with Maya, the efficient mundane causal principle. But he can do nothing independently of the energy of Maha-Visnu representing the direct spiritual power of Krsna. Therefore, the principle of mahat, or the perverted cognitive faculty, is produced only when the subjective plenary portion of Krsna, viz., the prime divine avatara Maha-Visnu who is the subjective portion of Sankarsana, Himself the subjective portion of Krsna, is propitious towards the active mutual endeavors of Maya, Siva's consort (sakti), and pradhana or the principle of substantive mundane causality. Agreeably to the initiative of Maha-Visnu the consort of Siva creates successively the mundane ego (ahankara), the five mundane elements (bhutas) viz., space etc., their attributes (tan-matros) and the limited senses of the conditioned soul (jiva). The constituent particles, in the form of pencils of

Hare Krishna,

Well, let me ask you one question.

Are Lord Krishna and Lord Narayana same entities. Do they have same SVARUPA, like each of us have a svarupa of our own?

If you say no, then Lord Visnu or Narayana are different from Lord Krishna according to SVARUPA. This is truly a blasphemous idea.

According to what I know Srila Prabhpada did not say such things.

If your answer is yes then there is no difference between different forms of GOD as it is the same GOD assuming different roles and forms.

Hare Krishna,

Well, let me ask you one question.

Are Lord Krishna and Lord Narayana same entities. Do they have same SVARUPA, like each of us have a svarupa of our own?

If you say no, then Lord Visnu or Narayana are different from Lord Krishna according to SVARUPA. This is truly a blasphemous idea.

According to what I know Srila Prabhpada did not say such things.

If your answer is yes then there is no difference between different forms of GOD as it is the same GOD assuming different roles and forms.

Hare Krishna,

But when i tell her if she accepts krishna then why chant vishnu sahasranama ...well her reply was she never saw any difference between vishnu or krishna.There are all the same for her.Simple devotion of an indian women.

 

 

Actually your mother is RIGHT.

There is no difference between Lord Visnu or Lord Krishna, All the names of Lord Visnu are equally effective.

I do not know from where you got this idea that Lord Krishna is greater than Lord Visnu or vice-versa.

Infact such a thought is blasphemous. It either means that Lord Visnu and Lord Krishna are different entities or that Lord Krishna divides his SVARUPA into different entities.

Either way such ideas are blasphemous to Lord Krishna.

Lord Krishna's form is GOD's SVARUPA= original form.That does not mean Lord's guna avatars as Maha Visnu etc. are different. It is the same Lord assuming different forms.

I would advise you to go through DVAITA VEDANTA philosophy of MADHVACHARYA. ATleast go through the basic beliefs in DVAITA VEDANTA. Then read through Gaudiya acharyas' works. This is the way I went through. Then you will not be as confused as you are now.

Hare Krishna,

But when i tell her if she accepts krishna then why chant vishnu sahasranama ...well her reply was she never saw any difference between vishnu or krishna.There are all the same for her.Simple devotion of an indian women.

 

 

Actually your mother is RIGHT.

There is no difference between Lord Visnu or Lord Krishna, All the names of Lord Visnu are equally effective.

I do not know from where you got this idea that Lord Krishna is greater than Lord Visnu or vice-versa.

Infact such a thought is blasphemous. It either means that Lord Visnu and Lord Krishna are different entities or that Lord Krishna divides his SVARUPA into different entities.

Either way such ideas are blasphemous to Lord Krishna.

Lord Krishna's form is GOD's SVARUPA= original form.That does not mean Lord's guna avatars as Maha Visnu etc. are different. It is the same Lord assuming different forms.

I would advise you to go through DVAITA VEDANTA philosophy of MADHVACHARYA. ATleast go through the basic beliefs in DVAITA VEDANTA. Then read through Gaudiya acharyas' works. This is the way I went through. Then you will not be as confused as you are now.

Hare Krishna,

Sri Vishnu Sahasranamam with a comparison of the bhAshya-s of SrI Samkara and SrI BhaTTar.

http://home.attbi.com/~chinnamma/

Hare Krishna,

Sri Vishnu Sahasranamam with a comparison of the bhAshya-s of SrI Samkara and SrI BhaTTar.

http://home.attbi.com/~chinnamma/

Hare Krishna,

The following website has beautiful articles to read. I think many will enjoy reading the same.

http://www27.brinkster.com/srivaishnavam/articles/article_index.htm

Hare Krishna,

http://www27.brinkster.com/srivaishnavam/articles/1.htm#A%20Riot%20of

A Riot of Colour

The world would indeed be a dull place, if everything were to be in black and white. It is colours that add spice to our lives- we feel elated when we see a rainbow, a garden alight with bright blooms, a meadow of green grass topped with sparkling dew, a bright blue sky with the Sun shining as a yellow ball of fire, and so on. The rising and setting Sun is indeed beautiful to watch, for its sheer colourfulness. Can you imagine a world bereft of cheerful colours? It would be as dull and dreary as ditchwater, and make our lives mere drudgery.

It is interesting to find from our scriptures that the Creator of all colours is Himself extremely colourful. Let?s see some of the hues that He is said to sport on various occasions.

To start our colourful journey with the Vedas, the Purusha SUkta describes the Lord as being the colour of the Sun-

?Aditya varNam tamasa: parastAt?. The reference to Sun-colour is significant. Just as the Sun is the antithesis of all darkness or evil, so too the Paramatma is verily the abode of all good qualities, and the antithesis of all that is inauspicious (?akhila hEya pratyanIka, kalyAnaikatAna?).

Describing the TirumEni of the ParamaPurusha, the ChAndOgya Upanishad has the following to say-

?Ya EshOntar AdityE hiraNmaya:Purusha:drisyatE

HiraNmaya:smashru:hiranya kEsa:AprNakhAt sarva Eva

suvarNa:?

The Lord is seen in golden splendour amidst the Solar

System, adorned by golden hair with a golden moustache and facial hair to match. From head to toe, he is all glitter like the Yellow metal.

It is perhaps this wonderful tirumEni that Sri PeyAzhwar was able to witness at TirukkOilUr on that stormy night, which is evident from his exclamation, ?Tiru kaNdEn, PonmEni kandEn, tigazhum arukkan aNi niramum kandEn?.

Though Sri Nammazhwar too endows the Lord with the colour of red gold,(?Sem ponnE tigazhum tiru moortthiyai?, ?ANi sempon mEni endAi? etc.), he himself turns around later and takes objection to the Lord?s colour being compared to that of a mere metal, and says that the purest gold cannot match the glitter of the Lord?s tirumEni-? sutturaittha nan pon un tirumEni oLi ovvAdu?.

At the other end of the spectrum, Emperuman sports a jet-black colour too, as opposed to the sparkling golden hue indicated in the Vedas. Especially in Sri KrishnAvatAra, He is a blackie, as almost all the Azhwars testify-

?KaNNan enum karum deivam?

?Karia mEni misai veLia neeru siridE idum peria kola tadam kaNNan?

?karu mAmugil pOl vaNNan KaNNan?

?kAnagam ellAm tirindu un karia tirumEni vAda?

?kAr tiraL anaya mEni KaNNane unnai? etc.

Thus the Lord is credited with the colour of clouds and the black sea- ?kArAr kadal vaNNan pin pOna nenjamum?(Siriya Tirumadal)

It is significant to note that the very name Krishna denotes one who is black. Perhaps He was christened with this name, looking to His colour at birth. He is indeed a Black Diamond, says Sri Nammazhwar- ?KaiyAr chakkaratthu en Karu mANickkamE?.

Sri Andal goes a step further and, in a damaging expose, reveals that Sri Krishna?s heart is as black as His body-

?puram pOl uLLum kariyAnai?.

That the Lord sports the colour of blue-black clouds is evident from Sri Vishnu Sahasranamam too, the prelude to which says, ?MEgha shyAmam peetha kousEya vAsam?. On this black body, the attire of yellow silk sits well.

Not only Sri Krishna, but Sri Rama too sported the colour of black clouds-?RAmam indIvara syAmam?.

Another colour that the Lord sports is green-a green that is restful to the eyes,says Sri Tondaradippodi Azhwar-

?Pacchai mA malai pOl mEni?. Sri Nammazhwar concurs in TiruvAsiriam, ?Pacchai mEni miga pagaippa?. Maragatam is a precious stone with a green hue, and several Azhwars have indicated that Emperuman is of this colour- ?VAmanan en maragata vaNNan? says Sri Nammazhwar.

His colour is compared to that of other gems too-like ?Mani?. Azwars are fond of calling the Lord ?MaNivaNNA?-(? MarutthuvanAi nindra MAmaNivaNNA?, ?VaikundA MaNivaNNanE en pollA tirukkuraLA?, etc.).

Sri Tirumangai Mannan is so perplexed by the galaxy of colours that the Lord sports from time to time, that he seeks elucidation from Emperuman Himself as to what His true colours are-

?Munnai vaNNam Palin vaNNam- muzhudum nilai nindra

Pinnai vaNnam koNdal vaNNam- vaNNam eNNum kAl

Ponnin vaNNam maNiyin vaNNam puraiyum tirumEni

Inna vaNnam endru kAttIr IndaLooreerE?.

Addressing Lord ParimaLa Ranga at Tiruvindalur, Azhwar says,

?You were the colour of milk in Kritha Yuga, You acquired the hues of pure red gold in the TrEtha Yuga, and in DwApara Yuga You were the colour of a Blue Diamond: Shastras tell us that your real colour is that of the rain-bearing clouds. I am confused by all these changing colours- do tell me what your true colours are!?.

Each part of the Lord?s divya mangaLa vigraham is a different colour- His hair is jet black (?Mai vaNNa narum kunji?), His eyes too black with reddish lines (?KariavAgi pudai parandu miLirndu sevvariOdi neeNda apperiavAya kaNgaL?), His lips red (?Kovvai sevvAi?, ?SenganivAi?), the Discus He sports is the colour of the blazing Sun, the Conch Panchajanya a milky white, His palms and feet red like the lotus (?Minnum sudar malaikku kaN pAdam kai kamalam? ?SenthAmarai adigaL?). Around His waist, He sports a beautiful cloth in Yellow or Red ( ?Peethaga Adai PirAnAr?, ?PeethAmbara dhara sragvI???arai sivanda Adayin mEl chendradAm en sindayE?).

Taken together, with so many colours competing to adorn His divine form, the Lord is indeed a riot of colours, and looks like a heavenly garden in full bloom.

Not to be outdone, PirAtti is also colourful. It is noteworthy that Sri Piratti and the Lord are compatible with each other not only in qualities, divine beauty and powers, (?yat dharmai: iha dharmiNI viharatE nAnAkrithi: nAyikA?), but also in colour. While the Purusha Sukta describes Emperuman to be the colour of the Sun (?Aditya varnam tamasa: parastAt?), the Sri Sukta says that His Consort too is of the same colour (?Aditya varNE ?). While the Lord?s is ?pon mEni?, Piratti is also credited with the colour of beaten gold (?HiraNya varNAm?). A connoisseur would however note that Piratti , with Her eminently feminine sense of colour, doesn?t take on blue or black hues that the Lord sports in His avatArAs. It is perhaps a reflection of our society?s predilections for fair-complexioned females even to this date.

Tempting as it is to continue the saga of colours, adiyen would like to conclude this piece here, for fear of testing the readers? patience.

Srimate Sri LakshmINrsimha divya paduka sevaka SrivanSatakopa Sri Narayana Yatindra Mahadesikaya Nama:

------dasan, sadagopan.

Hare Krishna,

http://www27.brinkster.com/srivaishnavam/articles/2.htm#The%20Unending%20Argument

The Unending Argument

The scene is the Srirangam Temple, acclaimed as the BhoolOka Vaikuntam, with the holy Cauvery flowing around the Lord to make an extraordinary gem-studded garland, and gently washing His holy feet, in an effort to attain universal acclaim as did the Ganga(which originated from Emperuman's tiruvadi, during His TrivikramAvatAra). The Lord reclines in unmatched splendour, surrounded by seven prAkArAs and several tall temple spires, all trying to convey to the casual visitor an inkling of the Inhabitant's magnificence. It is EkAdasi, the holiest day of the fortnight, a day to be spent in fasting, prayer and meditation on the Lord and His matchless attributes.

Sri NamperumAL (utsavar) has just had His ceremonial bath in one of the high-vaulted manatapAs, to the accompaniment of uplifting Upanishad chants and lilting recitation of divya prabandham. The Lord is still clad in His wet yellow bathrobe, and is adorned only with a single- stranded garland of Tulasi. One of His palms is raised in the "abhaya mudra", extending an assurance of universal protection. There is a beautiful lamp, fuelled by pure ghee, burning in the foreground, spreading fragrant fumes all around.

To Sri Parasara Bhattar, who is an enthralled witness to this bewitching scene, it appears as though the Lord is about to swear to somebody about the truth of something or the other. (It is customary for those about to solemnly affirm the truth of their version to do so after a bath, still clad in their wet clothes, in front of the holy fire as a witness. This is similar to the oath-taking in vogue in contemporary courts, where the witness is required to swear to the accuracy of his testimony by placing his hand on the Bhagavat Gita, Bible or similar scriptures.)

In Sri Bhattar's mind, one of the eternal arguments between the Lord and the unrepentant Jeevatma re-enacts itself thus.

The Lord stands majestically on His pedestal,flanked by His Divine Consorts, while the Jeeva stands before Him, in a stance calculated to assert his apparent independence. The Jeevatma's unstated but apparent position is that he doesn't owe anything to the Paramatma, nor does he need to abide by the latter's dictates.

After waiting in vain for the Jeevatma to pay obeisance, the Lord initiates the conversation, (this is quite in tune with His reputation as "Poorva bhAshI"-one who is not egoistic to wait for the other to initiate a conversation, irrespective of the other person's stature) in a bid to break the ice and reclaim the lost soul as His own.

Says the Lord to the Jeevatma, "Tvam mE", pointing out to the misguided soul that it belongs to the Paramatma, and that its real nature is to perform all sorts of kainkarya or service to the Lord, in this world and others.

Disputing the Lord's claim, the Jeevatma asserts its imaginary independence by saying "aham mE"-"I belong to myself and am subservient to no one. I am my own Lord and Master, not having to account to anybody for my actions, expect to those near and dear to me. I am nobody's vassal, as I have my own servants to look after my every need. I own a house, have properties, and am fortunate to have a doting wife, adoring children and dutiful servants. As such, You can hardly claim me to be Your servitor."

Humouring the Jeevatma, the Lord continues the exchange, and asks the former to adduce reasons for his assertion of independence. "Kuta: tat?" inquires the Lord.

A guilty person, when asked a pointed question, answers back with a question of his own, as we know from experience. A thief, when asked directly whether he stole the diamond ring, usually doesn't deny it outright, but says something like "What would I do with a ring like that!" etc. Similarly, the Jeevatma too, unable to adduce plausible reasons for its assertion as required by the Paramatma, replies with a question of his own-"tadapi kuta:?"

Says the Jeevatma to the Lord, "You ask me why. Can You tell me why you are making this improbable claim of owning me?"

The Lord buttresses His claim of ownership by quoting the Vedas, which are the strongest supporting evidence -"idam Veda moola pramAnAt". The supremacy of the Paramatma and the status of the Jeevatma as the Lord's servitor and property, are emblazoned in many Shruti vAkyAs, which the Lord cites as exhibits for the prosecution.

Without responding directly to the evidence adduced by the Lord, the Jeeva asserts his liberty by pointing out that this is born out of centuries of experience-"Etat cha anAdi siddha anubhava vibhavAt". All our lives, and throughout our innumerable births, little do we realise that our creation, subsistence and end are all the work of a Super Power. We are firm in the belief that we are ourselves responsible for our achievements, and the good life we lead is the result of our own labours, with little owed to anyone for the same. Though this lack of realisation leads us again and again into the vortex of Samsara, we are loath to recognise the truth even if it shines before us. Hence the Jeevatma's assertion that its independence is the result of centuries of "experience".

Patiently continuing the argument, the Lord tells the Jeeva that his so-called experience has been held to be illusory-

"sOpi sAkrOsa Eva".

Refusing to realise the fallacy of his ways, the Jeevatma shoots back," ka AkrOsa:? Kasya?- what possible objection could there be to my independence, and who could possibly object to it?"

The Lord points out that the soul's assertion of independence has been proved to be wrong in Scriptural texts like the Bhagavat Geeta, which also lay down clearly that the individual soul is indeed subservient to the Paramatma." GeetAdishu mama vidita:" replies Sri Namperumal.

In its rejoinder, the Jeevatma points out that the Gita is after all the Lord's own composition, and as such, cannot be expected to say anything contrary to His contention. Hence the Jeeva seeks independent witnesses in support of the Lord's assertion-

"ka: atra sAkshI?'.

Untiringly, the Lord lists out His witnesses, in a vain bid to make the Jeevatma realise its own helplessness-"Sudhee: syAt". Emperuman cites as witnesses great seers and Maharshis like Sage Vyasa (the author of the Brahma Sutras, the editor of the four Vedas, and acclaimed to be a treasure house of penance), Sri Parasara Bhagawan ,( the acclaimed author of Sri Vishnu Purana, the prinicipal among the SAtvika PurANAs) and other great souls.

When the deposition of a prosecution witness is factually indisputable, it is usual for the defence lawyers to attribute motives to the witness, in a bid to discredit him. We have seen this in so many Perry Mason novels. The Jeevatma, similarly confronted with the incontrovertible evidence of great seers like Sri Vyasa, tries to wriggle out of it by questioning their impartiality-"hanta tvat pakshapAtI sa:"

In a futile bid to convince the Jeevatma of his svarupa and svabhAva, the Lord tries to search for the sort of witness who would be able to convince the unrepentant Jeevatma, and ultimately comes to the conclusion that it is difficult to convince a person, who has made up his mind not to be convinced.

Even at this late stage, and even in the face of the Jeevatma's intransigence and obduracy, the Lord still wants to instil good sense in the Jeevatma and to liberate it from the vicious and miserable cycle of births and deaths it is caught-up in. Though it is unthinkable for the Lord to swear to the truth of His averments, He prepares to do even that. It is paradoxical that the omnipotent Lord, acclaimed as the Ultimate truth itself ("Satyam GnAnam Anantam Brahma") is preparing to take an oath, clad in His wet clothes, with palm raised in solemn affirmation before the ceremonial fire, all in a bid to convince a mere Jeevatma, an insignificant member of His multi-billion-strong creation. This only goes to show the extraordinary lengths the Lord is prepared to go to, to save a single soul, and the demeaning deeds He is prepared to do for "ChEtana lAbha".

Here is the beautiful sloka of Sri Bhattar, in full-

"Tvam mE, aham mE kutastat tadapi kuta:

idam Veda moola pramANAt

Etat cha anAdi siddha anubhava vibhavAt sOpi sAkrOsa Eva

Ka AkrOsa:? Kasya ? GeetAdishu mama vidita: kOtra sAkshI? SudheesyAt

Hanta! tvat pakshapAtI sa: iti nrukalahE mrigya madhyastthavat Tvam"

This sloka has been quoted by many subsequent Acharyas like Swami Desikan, to point out the pitfalls of AhamkAra. This muktaka of Sri Bhattar is of extreme significance, for it highlights the false prestige and illusory independence that the Jeevatma revels in, unmindful of the eternal bliss it is entitled to as the natural servitor of the Lord. The sloka also focuses on the extraordinary efforts Emperuman takes to ensure that not even a single soul misses its rightful place in Paradise.

I posted the above message

I posted the above message

Hare Krishna,

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

2 possibilities I see.

(a) You are a great Sadhu

(b) You are crazy.

Which I do not know. This is not a joke. Why don't you think about this and only you can tell us.

Hare Krishna,

No. No. No.