shiva
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but, in Vaishnavism there is concern for the statements of the Mahajanas, acharyas and rishis.personal accounts from the experience of conditioned souls are always defective.
what we can depend on is the accounts in shastra, the mahajanas, the acharyas and the rishsis.
story-telling by conditioned souls is not dependable.
hearing stories from conditioned souls is not accepted in Gaudiya Vaishnavism.
We accept the revelations experienced by the mahajanas, not stories of conditioned souls.
That is another point entirely. What you said is:
One needs intelligence and above all faith to understand the truth of God.It's not something that could be or should be validated by so-called experiences.
That statement is what I object to. It is simply a concoction. You are saying that the "truth of God" cannot be "validated" through experience. That is a complete concoction. If not please show where this is taught. I know from experience that it is utterly false.
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guruvani your point seems to be that one first has to have faith and then develop that faith through spiritual practice before God will give you any experience. Where do you find this philosophy written in any sastra? I believe that is nothing but your own concoction. God is free to reveal himself to whomever he likes whenever he likes in whatever he likes. It is described that according to the level of spiritual attainment one has made in this life that in the next life he will pick up where he left off. If one is advanced in spiritual understanding but did not become qualified for liberation upon his next birth he may be given direct revelation of God without any prior study or spiritual practice in order to quickly bring him to the level where he left off. It is up to God. No one has the authority to say that God will only reveal himself to people under certain circumstances.
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Personal experience can many times just be hallucination.We must use the examples of shastra and the self-realized acharyas to establish proper evidence.
The experience of conditioned souls in illusion is not any sort of proper evidence to establish a conclusion in Vaishnava discussion.
Your personal experience may be real or it may be fantasy.
Guru, sadhu and shastra is the real authority, not personal stories.
Yes the materialist scientists tell us that mystical experience of God is nothing but hallucinations. If God reveals his existence to you that is not a hallucination. Imagining yourself to be something you are not is.
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I have to respectfully disagree with guruvani when he wrote:
It's not something that could be or should be validated by so-called experiences.Of course God can validate faith by giving someone an experience. The sastra is full of storiess where people have experiences of God revealed to them. The path of bhakti promises that Krishna will appear to you at an advanced stage.
From S.B. 4.28.41In this way King Malayadhvaja attained perfect knowledge because in his pure state he was directly instructed by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. By means of such enlightening transcendental knowledge, he could understand everything from all angles of vision.
PURPORT
In this verse the words saksad bhagavatoktena guruna harina are very significant. The Supreme Personality of Godhead speaks directly to the individual soul when the devotee has completely purified himself by rendering devotional service to the Lord. Lord Krsna confirms this also in Bhagavad-gita (10.10):
tesam satata-yuktanam
bhajatam priti-purvakam
dadami buddhi-yogam tam
yena mam upayanti te
“To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.”
The Lord is the Supersoul seated in everyone’s heart, and He acts as the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within. However, He gives direct instructions only to the advanced, pure devotees. In the beginning, when a devotee is serious and sincere, the Lord gives him directions from within to approach a bona fide spiritual master. When one is trained by the spiritual master according to the regulative principles of devotional service and is situated on the platform of spontaneous attachment for the Lord (raga-bhakti), the Lord also gives instructions from within. Tesam satata-yuktanam bhajatam priti-purvakam [bg. 10.10]. This distinct advantage is obtained by a liberated soul. Having attained this stage, King Malayadhvaja was directly in touch with the Supreme Lord and was receiving instructions from Him directly.
And also
rom S.B. 4.29.50 purportEverything is being directed by the Supersoul within the body; therefore the better part of valor is to take His direction and be happy. To take His directions, one needs to be a devotee, and this is also confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā (10.10):
teṣāḿ satata-yuktānāḿbhajatāḿ prīti-pūrvakamdadāmi buddhi-yogaḿ taḿyena mām upayānti te
"To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me."
Although the Supersoul is in everyone's heart (īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāḿ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [bg. 18.61]), He talks only to the pure devotees who constantly engage in His service
As for me personally I was raised an atheist and did noy believe in god nor did I ever read any religious philosophy nor even hear any religious discourse before I gained faith in God. My faith in God came from some experiences I had where God revealed to me his control over everything and in a mystical fashion communicated with me. At that point I was transformed from an ignorant atheist to someone who knows God exists literally overnight. Then I had more mystical experiences when I began chanting and going to the local ISKCON temple for sunday feast kirtans where god revealed to me that he was in fact Krishna. This all happened within the span of a month. Since that time 30 years ago I have had countless experiences of God, every day in fact.
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My neighbors kids had some acne and they asked me if I knew of any herbs to help, my first thought was echinacea might work so I told them to try some extract in non gelatin caps, after a few days their acne started to clear up, a bit longer it was gone. They take it regularly, not every day and they haven't had acne since.
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More from Sri Krishna Samhita:Originally Posted by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura
Although the Ramayana is counted as poetry, it can also be called a history. It was written by Valmiki Rsi, who was a contemporary of Ramacandra. We don't feel that the current Ramayana was written by Valmiki alone. By considering the conversation between Narada and Valmiki and the recitation of the Ramayana in Ramacandra's assembly by Luva and Kusa, it is understood that Valmiki composed many of the verses glorifying the characteristics of Ramacandra in the Ramayana, but after some time one scholar elaborated on Valmiki's work. I think that the present day Ramayana was propagated after the composition of the Mahabharata, because while chastising Jabali, Ramacandra accused him of being polluted by the Sakya philosophy. Please refer to the Sanskrit Ramayana printed under the direction of the King of Burdwan. It is felt that the present day Ramayana was written around 500 B.C. It is said that the Mahabharata was composed by Vyasadeva, and there is no objection to this. But it cannot be accepted that the Vyasa who divided the Vedas and received the title Vedavyasa at the time of Yudhisthira was the same Vyasa. The reason for this is that in the Mahabharata there are descriptions of kings such as Janmejaya, who ruled after Yudhisthira. There are specific references about the Manu scriptures in the Mahabharata, therefore the present day Mahabharata must have been written some time after 1000 B.C.
... it appears that Vedavyasa first made a draft of the Mahabharata, and later on another Vyasa elaborated on it and presented that under the name of Mahabharata.
He begins that section with this:
"Now I will establish the dating of the smrti sastras according to the opinion of modern scholars"
He makes this point over and over. He writes that Krsna Samhita is not for neophytes because they may not understand his purpose and may lose faith. Also he writes that it is not written for uttama adhikaris, although he says that uttama adhikaris can use the Krsna Samhita as an aid. He writes that his intent in Krsna Samhita is in giving aid to the faith of madhyama adhikaris who lose faith in sastra due to the influence of modern scholarship and modern thinking. Modern establishment "science" strives under the delusion of methodological and metaphysical naturalism and therefore a priori denies the possiblity of any and all metaphysical events as plausible. Therefore any historical literature which incorporates metaphysical events is treated as made up mythology. What Bhaktivinoda is doing is showing that the "mythology" of the vedic histories can be shown to be plausible history. Rejecting them wholesale on the basis of the prejudices of the modern scientific establishment (which is commited to a certain mundane worldview) is not the only alternative to accepting them literally.
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As I mentioned above, Theist-ji, the lack of evidence cannot prove anything. Only proof to the contrary would.Consider for a moment, the surface area of the world. Then consider just how many archeological digs have taken place. There is no way to claim that even the smallest portion of the archeological record has been revealed.
Even then, as far as Kurukshetra goes, there is the description of weapons of similar intensity to conventional nuclear weapons. If such weapons were in play, one would expect to find little remaining except some melted glass.
Whether the numbers of people involved in the battle is accurate or not is irrelevant. Sometimes atisayokti or hyberbolic poetic license is used in sastra in order to make a point of one type or another. Mahaprabhu has said:
krsna-tulya bhagavata -- vibhu, sarvasraya
prati-sloke prati-aksare nana artha kaya
Srimad-Bhagavatam is as great as Krsna, the Supreme Lord and shelter of everything. In each and every verse of Srimad-Bhagavatam and in each and every syllable, there are various meanings.
Besides these facts another point to remember is that the vedic custom is cremation for the dead. If there was 10,000 or 10,000,000 dead at Kuruksetra they would have been cremated and the weapons etc would have been carted off. A big problem for finding ancient historical evidence in India is the fact that most archeological digs conducted throughout the world are done in areas which have been abandoned. How can you know the true archeological history of a place if that place was never abandoned? For example if Delhi has been a city for 10,000 years how will you dig up the city to find out what was going on 10,000 years ago? Even if you could dig up the city what are the chances that you could find much? When places are not abandoned they leave little in the way of archeological evidence because items are used until they are broken and then they are used for something else e.g wood objects are used for fuel, metal objects will be melted down and recast, etc. Almost all modern archeology is based upon discovering the ruins of abandoned places. In a place like India where civilization has gone on without interruption it makes archeology very difficult. The saraswata-harrapan ruins showcase this point. They are abandoned cities. Yet they leave very little besides ruins of buildings because anything of value was carted off when the people left or when people came to loot after the abandonment. There is a theory that since hardly any weapons were found that they were a non violent people. But that shows the level of intelligence of those archeologists. The people adbandoning those cities would not leave their valuables behind, you wouldn't expect to find anything of value because why would they leave anything of value? Therefore hardly any weapons were found. So modern archeology is oftentimes led by very foolish people with a view to propagandize a certain view of world history and cultures, their opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.
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Quote:<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Thakura Bhaktivinoda
"One who lives in Kuruksetra, which is south of the Sarasvati River and north of the Drsadvati River, lives in heaven." By discussing the meaning of the name "Brahmavarta" it is assumed that the Aryans came from another country to reside therein. We cannot ascertain exactly where they came from, but it is believed that they came from some northwest country. In the description of Devi's tirtha near Kashmir in the Mahabharata (Vana-parva 82.102) it is stated:
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What I feel is that it doesn't matter one way or the other whether there was an Aryan invasion.
Bhaktivinode Thakura has given his opinion that maybe something like that happened.
Devotees who want to fight against science are "wild goose chasing" in my opinion.
Frankly I don't care if Hanuman etc were men or monkeys. And in Sri Krishna Samhita we find Bhaktivinode Thakura saying the "descent of the Ganges" story of King Bhagirathi represents not the bringing of the Ganges to the sea but the bringing of the Aryan culture from "Aryavarta" (uttara pradhesh) to the sea in Bengal. This, and many other things Bhaktivinode Thakura says in Sri Krishna Samhita, are not "articles of faith" for me. What these things do for me is make me realize that I don't need to worry one way or the other whether scientific or "fundamentalist" ideas are the right ideas.
Bhaktivinode Thakur has presented a way of thinking about history and science which makes those topics separate from spirituality. He goes on to talk about spirituality in great depth in Sri Krishna Samhita.
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You still don't seem to understand what Bhaktivinoda is saying. "Another country" means outside of Brahmavarta (the land between the sarasvati and drsadvati), not outside of "India". He is basing this on what is written in the Mahabharata where it says that the brahmanas originally came from a place near Devi's tirtha near Kashmir. He gives no support to any type of aryan invasion theory. As for your support of "science" in these areas or in the so called science of evolution, well, your opinion is interesting but maybe you should try to read a bit closer before making your claim of scientific objectivity. Besides the lack of any scientific proof for an aryan invasion (which was dreamed up by colonialist christians for the purpose of propaganda) there is also a lack of any scientific proof for evolution regardless of the claims made by propagandists. So if someone was to really rely on science and want his opinion to have any merit he or she should first become educated in the relevant science rather then parroting discredited propaganda masquerading as science.
As for the various histories written by Bhaktivinoda in the Krsna Samhita you should note that he writes that he is giving the "modern scholars" version of Puranic history, he does not state that he agrees with it. For example he says things like:
Now we will consider the modern scholars view on the date of the appearance of Srimad Bhagavatam, the jewel of all scriptures. Not understanding our statements, third-grade people may lose all faith and consider this scripture a recent work. Therefore they should not read this section. Actually Srimad Bhagavatam is not a recent book. It is eternal and ancient like the Vedas.Clearly the purpose of the book is to show that even if the itihasas are not literally true, that they still offer a real plausible history, that they can be shown to be not simply an invented mythology with no basis in any real historical events. Early on in the book he writes that it is common for people to reject the religion propounded by the itihasas because they find some part which seems unbelievable to them and then end up losing faith in the entire religion. So his purpose in the book is to aid those people who cannot accept literally the stories and histories of the itihasas (puranas, mahabharata, ramayana etc) by giving a "modern scientific" account of the itihasas to show that they are not simply invented mythology even by modern standards of historical and anthropological methodologies. He then many times adds that he accepts the version of history written in the itihasas as they are written in them.
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That's fine PrabhuIt is worth checking out the whole of the Sri Krishna Samhita so you can get a good idea about what Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur was thinking.
I have put the whole of the book online here:
Here is some more interesting info from Sri Krishna Samhita:
Bhaktivinoda Thakura suggests that the Aryans came to India from some country to the North West.
Well...no. He wrote:
In the description of Devi's tirtha near Kashmir in the Mahabharata (Vana-parva 82.102) it is stated:prasutir yatra vipranam sruyate bharatarsabha
"It is said that brahmanas first came into existence at that place."
He is saying they came from Devi's tirtha near Kashmir according to the Mahabharata. Remember, an aryan in the vedic sense is someone who follows the vedic religion. What the Mahabharata is saying is that the original brahmanas, or the original vedic rishis came from there. It's not meant in the sense of an aryan invasion theory, rather it is saying that the first brahmana or brahmanas who taught vedic knowledge came from somewhere in the Himalayan range near Kashmir.
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Srimad Bhagavatam 4.24.73
te vayam noditah sarve
praja-sarge prajesvarah
anena dhvasta-tamasah
sisrikshmo vividhah prajah
When all the Prajapatis were ordered to create by Lord Brahma, we chanted these prayers in praise of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and became completely free from all ignorance. Thus we were able to create different types of living entities.
PURPORT
In this verse we can understand that the various types of living entities were created simultaneously at the very beginning of the creation. The nonsensical Darwinian theory of evolution is not applicable here. It is not that intelligent human beings did not exist millions of years ago. On the contrary, it is understood that the most intelligent creature, Lord Brahma, was first created. Then Lord Brahma created other saintly sages like Marici, Bhrigu, Atreya, Vasishtha and Lord Siva. They in their turn created different types of bodies according to karma. In Srimad-Bhagavatam Lord Kapiladeva told His mother that the living entity gets a particular type of body in accordance with his work and that this body is decided upon by higher authorities. The higher authorities, as appointed by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, are Lord Brahma and all other Prajapatis and Manus. Thus from the beginning of creation it can be seen that the first creature is the most intelligent. It is not that so-called modern intelligence has developed by the gradual process of evolution. As stated in Brahma-vaivarta Purana, there is a gradual evolutionary process, but it is not the body that is evolving. All the bodily forms are already there. It is the spiritual entity, or spiritual spark within the body, that is being promoted by the laws of nature under the supervision of superior authority. We can understand from this verse that from the very beginning of creation different varieties of living entities were existing. It is not that some of them have become extinct. Everything is there; it is due to our lack of knowledge that we cannot see things in their proper perspective.
In this verse the word dhvasta-tamasah is very important, for without being free of ignorance one cannot control the creation of different types of living entities. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam (3.31.1), daiva-netrena -- bodies are awarded under the supervision of superior powers. How can these superior powers control the evolutionary process of the living entity if they are not free from all imperfection? The followers of the Vedic instructions cannot accept the Darwinian theory of evolution, for it is marred by imperfect knowledge.
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Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.24.29:
<center>sva-dharma-niSThaH zata-janmabhiH pumAnviriJcatAm eti tataH paraM hi mAmavyAkRtaM bhAgavato 'tha vaiSNavaMpadaM yathAhaM vibudhAH kalAtyaye</center>sva-dharma-niSThaH--one who is situated in his own dharma, or occupation; zata-janmabhiH--for one hundred births; pumAn--a living entity; viriJcatAm--the post of Lord BrahmA; eti--gets; tataH--thereafter; param--above; hi--certainly; mAm--attains me; avyAkRtam--without deviation; bhAgavataH--unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead; atha--therefore; vaiSNavam--a pure devotee of the Lord; padam--post; yathA--as; aham--I; vibudhAH--demigods; kalA-atyaye--after the annihilation of the material world.A person who executes his occupational duty properly for one hundred births becomes qualified to occupy the post of BrahmA, and if he becomes more qualified, he can approach Lord Siva. A person who is directly surrendered to Lord KRSNa, or ViSNu, in unalloyed devotional service is immediately promoted to the spiritual planets. Lord Siva and other demigods attain these planets after the destruction of this material world.PURPORTThis verse gives an idea of the highest perfection of the evolutionary process. As described by the VaiSNava poet Jayadeva GosvAmI, pralaya-payodhi jale dhRtavAn asi vedam **. Let us begin tracing the evolutionary process from the point of devastation (pralaya), when the whole universe is filled with water. At that time there are many fishes and other aquatics, and from these aquatics evolve creepers, trees, etc. From these, insects and reptiles evolve, and from them birds, beasts and then human beings and finally civilized human beings. Now, the civilized human being is at a junction where he can make further evolutionary progress in spiritual life. Here it is stated (sva-dharma-niSThaH) that when a living entity comes to a civilized form of life, there must be sva-dharma, social divisions according to one's work and qualifications. This is indicated in Bhagavad-gItA (4.13):When Prabhupada says evolve he doesn't mean it in the sense of evolution of species.
some quotes
"The different forms are already there. Just like the form of monkeys also there, the form of man is also there, other animals, other birds, beasts. So he has no clear conception how the evolution is taking place, neither he has any idea about whose evolution. He simply takes account of the body. A body never evolves. It is the soul within the body--he evolves, transmigrates from one body to another.""So that point is missing in Darwin's theory. He says that body is evolving. That is nonsense. The body is evolving, then why the monkey body is not producing a human body at the present moment? Where is the evidence? The monkeys are already there. Where is the evidence in the zoo that a monkey has produced a human being? Do you think it is all right?"
"Not only human form of life but all the animal forms of life, they are also from the very beginning. Not like Darwin's theory that there was no human form of life in the beginning. That is a wrong theory. All the forms of life were there, and the, actually the body is external; within the body there is the soul. So the body is created by material nature and the soul is part and parcel of God. This is the real idea. So how they can refute this idea if they have no idea about the beginning of life?"
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Purport Srimad Bhagavatam 3.15.31
"If one’s desire is not fulfilled, the younger brother, anger, follows. Here we can mark that even great saintly persons like the Kumāras were also angry, but they were not angry for their personal interests. They were angry because they were forbidden to enter the palace to see the Personality of Godhead. Therefore the theory that in the perfectional stage one should not have anger is not supported in this verse. Anger will continue even in the liberated stage. These four mendicant brothers, the Kumāras, were considered liberated persons, but still they were angry because they were restricted in their service to the Lord. The difference between the anger of an ordinary person and that of a liberated person is that an ordinary person becomes angry because his sense desires are not being fulfilled, whereas a liberated person like the Kumāras becomes angry when restricted in the discharge of duties for serving the Supreme Personality of Godhead."
Purport Bhagavad Gita As It Is 16.1-3
"Akrodha means to check anger. Even if there is provocation one should be tolerant, for once one becomes angry his whole body becomes polluted. Anger is a product of the modes of passion and lust, so one who is transcendentally situated should check himself from anger."
Bhagavad Gita 16.4
"Arrogance, pride, anger, conceit, harshness and ignorance--these qualities belong to those of demoniac nature, O son of Prtha."
Bhagavad Gita 16.4
"There are three gates leading to this hell--lust, anger and greed. Every sane man should give these up, for they lead to the degradation of the soul."
There are 2 types of anger, anger inspired by devotional sentiment and mundane anger inspired by ignorance, pride, lust or greed. A knowledgeable devotee would never be angry in any circumstance for any reason if Krishna didn't want to inspire transcendental anger in that devotee for the furthurence of devotional sentiment. This is because the knowledgeable devotee understands that Krishna is controlling the actions of everyone.
Sri Krishna states in the Bhagavad Gita
13.30One who can see that all activities are performed by the body, which is created of material nature, and sees that the self does nothing, actually sees.
PURPORT by A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami
This body is made by material nature under the direction of the Supersoul, and whatever activities are going on in respect to one's body are not his doing. Whatever one is supposed to do, either for happiness or for distress, one is forced to do because of the bodily constitution. The self, however, is outside all these bodily activities. This body is given according to one's past desires. To fulfill desires, one is given the body, with which he acts accordingly. Practically speaking, the body is a machine, designed by the Supreme Lord, to fulfill desires. Because of desires, one is put into difficult circumstances to suffer or to enjoy. This transcendental vision of the living entity, when developed, makes one separate from bodily activities. One who has such a vision is an actual seer.
The devotee in full knowledge of the transcendental science sees that everyone is acting out their karma under the control of the Lord, therefore they cannot be angry at anyone because they see that everyone is being forced to act the way they do.
Srimad Bhagavatam 11.10.11
tasmaj jijnasayatmanam
atma-stham kevalam param
sangamya nirased etad
vastu-buddhim yatha-kramam
Therefore, by the cultivation of knowledge one should approach the Supreme Personality of Godhead situated within oneself. By understanding the Lord's pure, transcendental existence, one should gradually give up the false vision of the material world as independent reality.
Still liberated souls do become angry. But their anger is caused by the Supreme Lord for the purpose of devotional sentiments, it is yogamaya, not mahamaya, which is behind the anger. A devotee in full knowledge cannot be angry if his perfect vision is not clouded over because perfect vision means that you see everyone serving the will of the Lord, seeing the Lord as the controller and everyone else as the controlled, the uttama adhikari stage of bhakti. Therefore by the action of the Lord's yogamaya potency the fully knowledgable devotee can be temporarily covered over by forgetfullness due to the lord's desire to create a devotional sentiment. Lord Chaitanya showed the nature of this transcendental anger when he got angry at Jagai and Madhai. That anger was not real anger, it was a devotional sentiment. The pastimes of Jagai and Madhai were planned out by the Lord long before they occured, therefore how can the Lord be angry with the actions of people when he has purposefully caused those offensive actions to take place in order to perform a pastime? That is why Lord Nityananda did not become angry when he was attacked, as the representative of Guru Tattva he was showing the status of the fully knowledgeable devotee by not being angry. Similarly for the knowledgeable devotee it is impossible for him to be really angry because he sees the Lord as the cause of all causes, therefore that knowledge is temporarily covered over by the Lord when he wants the devotee to display devotional sentiments of anger.
This type of anger should not be confused with mundane anger which is the result of lust, greed or pride being thwarted.
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Madhavananda prabhu first you claim that a devotee may share his experience with others if those people he wishes to share with are suitably qualified. Then you translate a verse from Jiva Goswami that says:
"Then, the secrets of one's own that are obtained with practice and in attaining perfection – with the grace of Sri Guru and Sri Bhagavan – are never to be disclosed to anyone."
You also wrote:
"Revealing heart's matters before the faithless is wholly improper. If this warning is not paid heed to, we gradually lose the impact of the experience, and additionally risk becoming subject to pride and a host of other vice arising from an inflated sense of self-importance and the possible admiration of others."
Is that from some sastra or tika? Once attaining the highest level the bhakta is always in direct mystic union with the Lord, that is never lost regardless of what the bhakta says to anyone. That person is not bound to any rules. Jiva Goswami writes in Bhakti Sandarbha:
In the Gautamiya Tantra it is said:For they who are always fallen in love with the lotus feet of Lord Krsna there is no japa, no Deity worship, no meditation, and no rules.
From Nectar of Devotion
From Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu (1.2.295):When an advanced, realized devotee hears about the affairs of the devotees of Vrndavana -- in the mellows of santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya - he becomes inclined in one of these ways, and his intelligence becomes attracted. Indeed, he begins to covet that particular type of devotion. When such covetousness is awakened, one's intelligence no longer depends on the instructions of sastra or on logic and argument.
From Srila Prabhupada CC Madhya lila.8.221
In all, there are sixty-four items listed for the rendering of service unto Krsna, and these are the regulative principles enjoined in the sastras and given by the spiritual master. One has to serve Krsna according to these regulative principles, but if one develops spontaneous love for Krsna as exhibited in the activities of those who live in Vrajabhumi, one attains the platform of raganuga-bhakti. One who has developed this spontaneous love is eligible for elevation to the platform enjoyed by the inhabitants of Vrajabhumi. In Vrajabhumi, there are no regulative principles set forth for Krsna's service. Rather, everything is carried out in spontaneous, natural love for Krsna. There is no question of following the principles of the Vedic system. Such principles are followed within this material world, and as long as one is on the material platform, he has to execute them. However, spontaneous love of Krsna is transcendental. It may seem that the regulative principles are being violated, but the devotee is on the transcendental platform. Such service is called gunatita, or nirguna, for it is not contaminated by the three modes of material nature.Also many past acaryas have written about their mystic experiences in books for all too read, not just a select few. e.g. In an addendum appended to the Govinda Bhashya, after it was published, Sri Baladeva has written:
vidyarupam bhushanam ye pradaya
khatim nitye teno yo mamudarah
Sri govinda-svapna-nirdishtha bhashye
radhabandhurangah sa jiyat.
"May Sri Govinda be all glorious. By his mercy, he revealed this commentary to me in a dream. The commentary revealed by him is especially appreciated by the highly learned, and as a result of this I have been given the name Vidyabhushana, but it is Sri Govinda who deserves all credit. May that Sri Govinda who is the most dear life and soul of Sri Radhika, be all-victorious."
The advice from the various past acaryas about not revealing the "secrets" gained from bhajan or dreams or experience is clearly only meant for devotees who are not on the highest level. The devotee on the highest level can reveal whatever Krishna wants revealed from that devotee to anyone and in any way Krishna so chooses. There is no shortage of stories from past acaryas revealing all sorts of transcendental experiences to the community at large in their writings.
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Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has told us:
krsna-tulya bhagavata -- vibhu, sarvasrayaprati-sloke prati-aksare nana artha kaya
Srimad-Bhagavatam is as great as Krsna, the Supreme Lord and shelter of everything. In each and every verse of Srimad-Bhagavatam and in each and every syllable, there are various meanings.
And Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura has told us
...the literal interpreters jump to the wrong inference that it should be possible for the conditioned soul to ascertain the real meaning of the scriptures by sticking to the lexicographical sense of their actual wordings. This latter part of the argument is inapplicable to the subject which is transcendental. The words possess a double meaning. The lexicographical meaning refers to the entities of this world and is, therefore, inapplicable to the case. The esoteric meaning is not accessible to the gross senses and mind of the conditioned soul. This is the great and insuperable difficulty. The literal interpreters who follow the lexicographical meaning of the words err grievously in overlooking this all-important consideration.BSST was not rejecting the literal, rather he was telling us that sticking to the literal words of the scriptures will not enable a person to understand the esoteric meaning of the scriptures. The process for understanding the esoteric intent of the scriptures is to hear from the self realized spiritual masters who have direct access to the esoteric meaning of the scripture due to their having direct access to the source of the scriptures. BSST wrote:
The transcendental meaning of the words cannot be conveyed to the senses of the conditioned soul as long as he does not agree to follow the method of submissive listening to the transcendental sound appearing on the lips of the pure devotee.This is from Katha Upanishad 1.2.23
nayam atma pravacanena labhyo
na medhaya na bahuna srutena
yam evaisha vrinute tena labhyas
tasyaisha atma vivrinute tanum svam
One cannot understand the supreme soul by studying the Vedas or by hearing many scriptures or by ones mental energy. The Lord reveals himself to the person who accepts the Lord as his master. That person alone attains the Lord.
This is from Srimad Bhagavatam 10.14.29
athapi te deva-padambuja-dvaya-
prasada leshanugrihita eva hi
janati tattvam bhagavan mahimna
na canya eko'pi ciram vicinvan
My Lord, if one is favored by even a slight trace of the mercy of Your lotus feet, he can understand the greatness of Your personality. But those who speculate to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead are unable to know You, even though they continue to study the Vedas for many years.
The astonishing pastimes of the Lord described in the scriptures may not be believable to all people due to the incredible nature of some of those pastimes. Those pastimes may have taken place exactly as described or there may have been some hyperbole here and there for poetic reasons or they may be some allegorical teaching in some places for various reasons.
Srila Prabhupada wrote in a letter to Krsna das (Nov. 7, 1972):These things are not very important; we may not waste our time with these insignificant questions. There are sometimes allegorical explanations [in the Bhagavatam]. So there are many things which do not corroborate with the so-called modern science, because they are explained in that way. . . . So we are concerned with Krsna consciousness, and even though there is some difference of opinion between modern science and allegorical explanation in the Bhagavata, we have to take the essence of Srimad-Bhagavatam and utilize it for our higher benefit, without bothering about the correctness of the modern science or the allegorical explanation sometimes made in Srimad Bhagavata
Either way the pastimes of the Lord can in fact be manifested exactly as they are are written about if the Lord desires. The Lord can do anything. This includes the slaying of giant magical creatures, or the lifting of a hill, or any of the things done by Krishna as described in the sastra. Did Krishna do everything as described? He can do them. There is also the esoteric intent of the Bhagavat which is not available in the literal words of the Bhagavat.
From "The Bhagavat: It's Philosophy, It's Ethics, It's Theology" by Srila Bhakti Vinode Thakura
Prayojana or FruitIn the position of complete realization of the activity of the uncovered soul a person becomes eligible for participation in the Transcendental Pastime or Lila of Sri Krishna (Bh. 1/7/10 and Sridhara Swami's commentary on the same). The realization of this all-absorbing Love for Sri Krishna is the FRUIT or Prayojana of the eternal spiritual activities of all pure souls.
Sri Krishna is directly served by His plenary inner as His only consort. (Krishna serves himself by manifesting himself as Radha who is his "plenary inner". She is serving Krishna and she is Krishna. Krishna's desires for consorthood are fulfilled through Radha. In this way Krishna serves himself by manifesting as Radha in order to fulfill conjugal desires) The residents of Vraja, the plane of this inner service, are extensions of the figure of the plenary Divine Power. They are the Divine participants in the Divine Pastimes, as all those entities display the nature of the full servitorship of the Divinity. (Those are the direct expansions of Radha. Radha is the "plenary Divine Power". This is about the gopis who have the same as Radha because they are her personal expansions) Not so the souls of men, all of whom are susceptible to the temptations offered by the deluding face of the power for preventing the access of the nonresidents of Vraja to the Arena of the Divine Pastime. We, the sojourners of this mundane plane, have been thus kept out of the plane of Vraja by the deluding face of the Divine Power.
Individual souls who are not part and parcel of the inner plenary power have no automatic access to the plane of Vraja. (Jivas who are not receiving the shelter of Radha and the Gopis) They are also lacking in spontaneous Love for Sri Krishna. It is possible for them to attain to the Love of Sri Krishna only as accepted subservients of the inhabitants of Vraja. (It is through being accepted as a servant of Radha's expansions that the jiva attains the love of Krishna)
The first appearance of the spontaneous Loving aptitude for Sri Krishna in an individual soul elevates him to the condition of the madhyam-bhagavata (mediocre servant of Sri Krishna) as distinct from the condition of the maha-bhagavata who possesses Love for Sri Krishna in the plenary measure which makes him eligible for participating, as a subservient of the servitors of Vraja, in the Loving Activities of the highest sphere of service.
In proportion as the hesitant, reverential, serving disposition of the madhyam-bhagavata is gradually developed, by the practice of pure service, into one of -subserviency to the inhabitants of Vraja in their unconventional performances of the highest Loving-services of Sri Krishna, such hesitation and distance are superseded by growing confidence and proximity to the Object of one's highest Love. Thereby the spiritual vision is perfected, in conformity with the natural capacity of an individual, and he is enabled to realize the full function of his specific spiritual self.
Goloka-Vrindavana is realizable in the symbolic Vrindavana that is open to our view in this world by all persons whose Love has been perfected by the mercy of the inhabitants of Transcendental Vraja, and not other-wise. The grossest misunderstanding of the subject of the Vraja Lila of Sri Krishna is inevitable if these considerations are not kept in view. All persons, under the sinister influence of the deluding power of Nescience, are subject to such misunderstanding in one form or another. They are fated to see nothing but a mundane tract of country in the terrestrial (Bhauma) Vrindavana and the practice of the grossest forms of debauchery in the Vraja Pastimes of Sri Krishna.
But the true esoteric vision of the maha-bhagavata is very different from realization of deluded humanity. It is described in Bhagavata 10.35.9 and sequel, and also in Chaitanya-charitamrita Madhya-Lila, 17-55:
"When He (Sri Krishna-Chaitanya) catches sight of a wood, it appears to Him in the likeness of Vrindavana; when He looks at a hill, He betakes it as Govardhana."
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Madhava in your list of uses for the term sahajiya in the gauidya math you include this one:
"In general, expressing doctrinal disagreement with the Gauḏīya Maṭha policy."
And then with a footnote you explain that furthur with this:
"The premise is that "sahajiyas disagree with our philosophy" and the conclusion is, "he disagrees, therefore he must be a sahajiya". This is, of course, an obvious logical fallacy."
That definition would seem to me to be too broad. Every single religious tradition in the world outside of the gaudiya math (Saraswat tradition) disagrees with "gaudiya math policy". Yet people from the gaudiya math usually only consider a sahajiya in the pejorative sense to be a person who in some fashion or another is utilizing a vaisnava paradigm or vaisnava deities in their religious beliefs and practices. Sri Vaisnavas and Tattvavadis or Advaitins or Jews or Muslims all disagree with "gaudiya math policies" yet they are not refered to as sahajiyas by members of the gaudiya math.
I also think that the main meaning of sahajiya when used by members of the gaudiya math is not mentioned by you. From my experience the main meaning is: someone who thinks himself to be more advanced in spiritual attainment then he actually is and who then may engage in any number or variety of activities which are based on and acted out as fraudulent imitations of the real thing.
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Guest: Bob Beck is not a medical doctor. The only people who agree with his garlic theories are people who sell his stuff. (bio feedback equipment etc)
From The Complete Garlic Handbook by Peter Josling
"Garlic is the only antibiotic that can actually kill infecting bacteria and at the same time protect the body from the poisons that are causing the infection. It is known that the most sensitive bacterium to garlic is the deadly Bacillus anthracis which produces the poison anthrax. Even the forefather of antibiotic medicine Louis Pasteur acknowledged garlic to be as effective as penicillin and late studies showed similar activity to a more modern antibiotic, chloramphenicol. Even the blood of garlic eaters can kill bacteria and it is also reported that the vapour from freshly cut garlic can kill bacteria at a distance of 20 cms!! Another once common, and apparently returning disease, tuberculosis was treated with garlic very successfully as the invading organism Mycobacterium tuberculosis is sensitive to several of the sulphur components found in garlic."
CHICAGO (UPI) - Microbiology researchers said Wednesday the active ingredient in garlic combats two of the nastiest antibiotic resistant microbes faced by doctors and patients.
The ingredient, a substance know as allicin, has been found effective in killing off methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus -- a microbe that has been especially troubling in skin and soft tissue wounds -- and in inhibiting growth of vancomycin-resistant enterococci, an intestinal bacteria that causes considerable illness and deaths in hospital settings.
"Allicin simply blows enormous holes through MRSA,' said Ronald Cutler, senior lecturer in microbiology at the University of East London, England. He has formulated allicin into skin products such as creams and soaps and has achieved success in destroying the microbes in laboratory tests.
He said he also tested the cream on healthy volunteers -- including himself -- and "we have found absolutely no adverse reactions."
Cutler, and his commercial venture Allicin International Ltd., are beginning human testing with the allicin cream on patients with stubborn skin infections caused by MRSA.
"What happens in a test tube may not occur when it is used in humans," cautioned Dr. Jaya Prakash, chairperson of the department of pathology, microbiology and public health at National University of Health Sciences, Lombard, Ill.
Prakash is experimenting with allicin in thwarting VRE.
"We have shown that we can inhibit the growth of these bacteria with allicin. Some of the isolates are more stubborn than others," she said, but at 150 micrograms of allicin the bacteria cannot proliferate.
She said humans can ingest about 25 grams a day of garlic without ill effects, and that much garlic contains about 15 milligrams of allicin -- about 100 times more than what she used to control VRE.
Methicillin and vancomycin both are powerful antibiotics that for many years were considered among the last medical defenses against vicious microbes such as S. aureus. In recent years, however, both S. aureus and enterococci have developed mutations that allow the bugs to escape the killing power of these antibiotics. Both organisms are multi-drug resistant.
The studies were presented at the annual Interscience Conference on Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy, a meeting sponsored by the American Society of Microbiology in Chicago.
In Prakash's study, allicin was tested against two normal strains of Enterococci fecalis and 24 vancomycin-resistant strains of E. fecalis. The allicin concentrations stopped growth of the microbes within four hours.
Cutler said concentrations of allicin at levels of 32 parts per million in a liquid or cream formulation were sufficient to inhibit MRSA. The cream he tested on himself contained 500 parts per million of allicin.
Prakash said that before calling the substance "Allicin Wonderdrug" a lot of clinical testing still must be accomplished.
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"Herb-watchers are particularly excited by what the research has to say about garlic's antibiotic potential. One reason for this is that some pathogenic bacteria are becoming resistant to widely used prescription antibiotics, which are either naturally occurring or synthetically derived. Their strength was that they were developed to attack specific kinds of harmful bacteria. But some bacteria have developed their own ways of resisting attack, so the quest for more naturally occurring, less specifically targeted antibiotics has ensued.
Garlic is emerging as a clear alternative to prescription antibiotics. Research outlines its potential to create an inhospitable environment to a wide range of microorganisms, including at least eight types of antibiotic-resistant bacteria and some fungi, such as Candida, the microbe that causes yeast infections, according to information provided by the nonprofit Herb Research Foundation in Boulder, Colorado. Specifically, garlic extract surpassed penicillin, ampicillin, doxycycline, streptomycin, and cephalexin in fighting eight of nine strains of Staphylococcus, Escherichia, and Proteus, according to the foundation. Moreover, like the herb echinacea, garlic may possess the ability to enhance immune function, making the body more resistant to infection, some research shows."
by Carmia Borek, Ph.D.
Enhanced immune functions
The immune system consists of many types of cells and protective substances that fight infections, the common cold and help battle life threatening diseases, such as cancer. A strong immune system can defend against bacteria, viruses and fungal diseases. When immunity is severely damaged, as in the case of AIDS, the body cannot fight off invading infectious organisms. Immunity can be compromised by many factors, by a poor diet, stress, environmental pollution, disease and aging. Fortunately, science has identified dietary substances that help stimulate the immune system, and garlic is among them.
Human studies confirm immune stimulation by garlic. Subjects receiving aged garlic extract at 1800 mg a day for three weeks showed a 155.5% increase in natural killer immune cell activity that kills invaders and cancer cells. Other subjects receiving large amounts of fresh garlic of 35g a day, equivalent to 10 cloves, showed an increase of 139.9%. In six weeks, patients with AIDS receiving aged garlic extract showed an enhancement of natural killer cells from a seriously low level to a normal level.
In another human study, subjects were given garlic powder for three months. Blood samples tested for white cell activity, showed an increased capacity of the immune cells to engulf the E. coli bacteria. Garlic and garlic preparations increase the activity of immune cells, including macrophages, that kill infectious invaders.
Recent studies show that garlic powdered extract contains substances that kill Heliobacter pylori, a virulent organism that grows in the stomach and is thought to be associated with stomach ulcers and stomach cancer. Since 122 patients out of 145 people infected with H. pylori showed resistance to antibiotic treatment, treatment with garlic supplementation may be an essential approach.
Anti-cancer effects
Normal cells become malignant through stages, in a complex process that takes many years, thus enhancing cancer risk with age. Mutations in DNA by free radicals or by binding of chemical carcinogens trigger a loss in growth regulation, causing cells to replicate in an uncontrolled way and result in a cancer.
The anti-cancer effects of garlic have been recognized since ancient times, mostly in the form of therapeutic effects. New scientific methods enable us to confirm that garlic helps prevent cancer and stop cancer cell growth.
Epidemiological studies
The anti-cancer effects of garlic-rich diets have been shown in over 12 epidemiological studies in China, Italy and the United States. Diets high in garlic lowered the risk of stomach and colon cancer. Among the earliest documented evidence were studies in China that showed a marked decrease in stomach cancer in residents of the Gangshang province whose daily consumption was 20 grams or more. Cancer rate was thirteen times lower compared to people in another province who consumed 1gram a day. Studies in Italy showed a 50% reduction in stomach cancer in people who's daily diet was high in vegetables and contained large amounts of garlic. The protective effects of garlic against colon cancer were shown in a striking finding in the Iowa Womens' study, in which 41.837 women, aged 55-69, ate one or more servings of garlic a week, over five years. Garlic eaters showed a 35% lower risk of colon cancer, compared with women on diets that did not include garlic.
Experimental studies
The antioxidant effects that prevent DNA damage and cancer-causing mutations are essential to the cancer preventive effects of garlic and its components. In addition, aged garlic extract, and lipid soluble organo-sulfur compounds that are also found in garlic powder, prevent the binding of DNA and chemical carcinogens. They also increase the disposal of the carcinogens in animals, ridding the body of the cancer causing agents.
Other animal studies show that aged garlic extract protects against early and late stages of cancer development in the colon, mammary glands, skin, stomach and esophagus. Among the compounds in the garlic extract showing prevention of tumor promotion is allixin, a flavonoid that also prevents the formation of prostaglandins, hormone-like substances that are active in enhancing inflammation, platelet aggregation and tumor growth.
Cancer therapy
In ancient times, garlic was used to treat cancer of the uterus. Experimental studies with human cells in culture support garlic action in blocking tumor growth. Work at Sloan Kettering Memorial Medical Center showed that the water soluble S-allyl cysteine and S-allyl mercaptocysteine, which are high in aged garlic extract, stop the growth of human prostate cancer and breast cancer cells in culture. Other recent studies at Pennsylvania State University showed that the oil soluble diallyl sulfide prevented the growth of human colon cancer cells. These studies offer hope for adjuvant therapy with garlic compounds.
Preventing heart and liver toxicity in cancer therapy
Cardiotoxicity and liver toxicity caused by anti-cancer agents that produce free radicals is a concern in cancer therapy. Doxorubicin, which is used in treating breast cancer, ovarian carcinoma and other tumors, damages the heart muscle and leads to heart failure. Methotrexate and 5-fluorouracilused, which are used in treating a variety of cancers, produce liver toxicity. Aged garlic extract and the organosulfur compounds polysulfides protect mice and heart cells in vitro from Doxorubicin toxicity and liver cells against the toxic effects of methotraxate and 5-fluorouracil. These protective effects of the garlic supplement may have applications in the clinic, reducing the risk of toxicity in patients receiving anti-cancer treatment.
Anti-aging, cognitive function enhancement and life extension
The history of garlic tells us of its uses to promote well being. Recent studies on mice show that garlic may have important effects on brain function and in increasing life span. The research showed that aged garlic extract and its key sulfur compound, S-allyl cysteine, enhanced learning ability in mice that are genetically prone to early aging. Nerve cells exposed to these compounds showed an unusual ability to grow and branch, which may be associated with the enhanced memory function by the garlic compounds. Aged garlic extract prevented degeneration in the frontal lobe of the brain, improved memory retention and extended the life span of the animals.
Conclusions
Garlic contains a wide range of substances, including antioxidants, which are enhanced by aging garlic extract and act together to help prevent atherosclerosis, heart disease, stroke, cancer and aging, as well as boost immunity and help increase memory and life span. Garlic and garlic supplements as well as garlic components, notably stable organo-sulfur compounds, have been shown to influence cancer by several mechanisms. It prevents mutations and the binding of carcinogens to DNA, increases the destruction of carcinogens by producing enzymes that do the job, prevents later stages in cancer, enhances immunity and stops the growth for some human cancer cells. Garlic antioxidants are highest in the aged garlic supplement compared to fresh garlic and other commercial preparations. The antioxidants protect against toxic effects of free radicals from radiation, including sunlight, environmental pollutants and some anti-cancer drugs, and help fight cancer, heart disease, loss of memory and aging.
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Don't use manufactured products like extracts, pills, etc.
Allicin (the antibiotic formed in garlic) is very unstable and once it is formed by the garlic juices combining it deteriorates due to oxidation within 4 hours and loses its potency. All products selling extracts etc. are scams unless they freeze dry the garlic at extremely low temps, surveys of these products have shown almost none have potency, use only raw unheated garlic. I haven't had a cold or a flu or an infection or virus of any kind last longer then 12 hours since I started taking garlic some 15 years ago. Whenever I feel something coming on i.e the beginning of a cold (congestion) or a flu (the flu comes on slowly, if you start to feel a bit sick then take garlic) or an infection (starts with mild pain) I take 5 large cloves of garlic twice in 12 hours and I am cured immediately. Garlic kills pretty much all viruses.
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How can a devotee find assurance that he will reach God's lotus feet in this lifetime, so that his worries about being reincarnated and not reaching God will subside? Are their inner/outer signs that we can see that let us know we are making real progress in our devotion?
The advanced devotee does not engage in bhakti related activity (sravanam, kirtanam etc) because he seeks to become free from samsara, rather he engages in bhakti activity out of affection. When one has attained affection for god, real emotional feeling of love, then that is a sign of an advanced soul. Regardless of how much sadhana you have done this affection will be there at some stage. A neophyte might have affection for god and he humble and magnanimous, whereas a long time bhakta expert in shastra and rituals may have little or no real emotional affection or love for god and be domineering and selfish. Externally it is easy to act as an advanced knowledgable bhakta, but it is the internal qualities of a person which qualifies or disqualifies them from intimacy with Radha Krishna.
It's not like Krishna seeks to keep the devotee out of the spiritual world, rather the spiritual world is very easy to gain entrance for those who desire to be there. It is all about desire really. If you desire to enjoy life as the dominator, if you wish to lord it over others, then you will take birth in the mateiral world regardless of your external bhakti activity. If you desire to simply give affection and love and do not desire to lord it over others, then for the bhakta the next life is easily assured to be with Radha Krishna.
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Beans do not have to be soaked in order to cook them to remove poison, soaking makes them cook faster and more evenly. Although if you eat certain beans which are not cooked you will feel like you have been poisoned i.e stomach and bowel pain leading to vomiting and diarrhea. Sprouting certain beans will also cause that e.g kidney beans. Safe beans to eat raw and sprouted are mung beans (bean sprouts commonly sold in stores) and soy beans. I don't know so much about other safe bean sprouts, but I have eaten lentil sprouts without problems.
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I wouldn't automatically blame muslims. Manipur is a complex place with some 20-30 rebel groups involved in violence and insurgency. Most are Christian some are also violent Meitei nationalists who seek to rid Manipur of what they perceive as foreign culture, which includes Vaisnavism, and Iskcon. While there is a chance muslims are involved, in Manipur the most active violent groups are not muslim.
MANIPUR- In a strange whirlpool of Cross-Current Insurgency03. 01. 2005
by R. Upadhyay
Manipur literally means a jewel-land, but for a last few decades the glamour of this culturally linked isolated corner of India too fell in the web of insurgency. Whatever may be the reasons behind the evolution of this misguided movement this bleeding portion of the nation has kept the entire people of the country disturbed.
Physical Setting:
With a total area of 22,327 Sq.K.M. Manipur is divided between Hills and valley. The valley account for only of 2238 Sq.K.M. that is only 10.02% of total area, but it represents 58.85 % of the total population of state, which is 2,388,634 (2001 Census). Its hill areas with 20089 Sq. K. M represent 41.156% of population. Of the three major ethnic groups, the Meiteis mostly settled in the valley constitute the largest segment of state population and are classified as non-tribal, the hills are the abode of the remaining Naga and Kuki (a sub-group of Mizo) groups with their 29 sub-tribes. Muslims, who are mostly the immigrants from East Bengal of British period, erstwhile East Pakistan and Bangladesh known as Pangals form around 8% of state population are also mostly settled in the valley. Rests of non-tribal populations known as Mayang (outsiders), are from different parts of the country. Meiteis, the Vaishnavite Hindus are not only debarred from special constitutional privileges granted to Scheduled Tribes but not even permitted under state Land Reform Act to settle in the hill districts. However, there is no such restriction on Nagas and Kukis, who are largely Christians to settle in the valley. This is one of the reasons for a gap of mistrust between Meiteis and the hill tribes. In the absence of any social homogeneity these various ethnic groups maintain their respective distinct identity.
With about 350 K.M. of international border with Burma (Now Myanmar) Manipur is bounded by upper Burma in east, Chin Hills of Burma in southeast, Nagaland in north, Mizoram in south and southwest and Assam in west. The state is presently having nine administrative districts including five in hills namely Churachandpur, Ukhrul, Chandel, Tamenglong and Senapati and four in valley which includes Imphal East , Imphal West, Bishenpur and Thoubal.
History:
Historically, Manipur was also under independent monarchial system of governance till the British annexed it in 1891. It however, also enjoyed the status of Princely States under British dominion like hundreds of territorial monarchial regions in Indian sub-continent. Imperial power under colonial rule though, followed a superficial non-interference policy also in this one of the isolated corners of northeast region, it used Christian missionaries in its divisive game.
The Christian Missionaries, who followed the British flag in Manipur and landed there in 1894 gradually converted the animistic tribes into Christianity through allurement of some basic medical and educational facilities. In 1901 census there were only 8 Christians against 60% Hindus, 36% animistic tribes and 4% Muslims (Manipur: A British Anthology - Edited by Prof. N. Sanajaoba, Akansha Publishing House, New Delhi, 2003, Page 220). But by 1991 the number of Christian population in this state increased to 34.11% (1991census). However, the percentage of Hindu population was reduced to 57. 67 % though, the number of Muslims increased to 7.27 % of state population. If 12.81 percent of decadal growth (1991-2001 as projected in 2001 census report) in overall state population is taken into account the Christian population of the state might have gone above 36%. Thus, through Christianisation of the native tribes they not only cut off the latter from the mainland of this country but also debarred them to integrate in the socio-cultural national stream with their new religion. This was a major obstacle against their constitutional integration in post Independence India. Wide socio-cultural gaps even between the Hindu Meiteis of Manipur valley and the Christian tribes of the hill areas became a permanent source of their socio-political rivalry.
Since Independence:
Manipur was merged in Indian Union on October 15, 1949 as a part C State after the departure of British. A small section of modern middle class, who emerged in Manipur during colonial rule, assumed the leadership of the state. They like other ethnic groups of Northeast India however were unable to understand the socio-political complexity of new democratic polity after Independence. They regarded the mainland political leaders as aliens and moved round the politics of their ethnic identity. Unabated influx of immigrants from Bengal during British rule and from East Pakistan after partition followed by arrival of businessmen, lower middle class and the labour class from northern India also caused demographic imbalance in the valley. Meiteis, who belonged to the ruling community of pre-British era therefore, became apprehensive of their socio-political marginalization in the new polity. The then central leadership of the country on the other hand remained confronted with multi dimensional problems following partition of the country and could not pay due attention towards cultural and constitutional integration of the region with national socio-political stream. Their failure to harmonise the changing order within the larger pluralistic society compounded the problem.
Democratically elected government is governing Manipur since Independence. It got the status of Union Territory in 1956 and full-fledged statehood on January 21, 1972. A unicameral Legislative assembly presently administers the state with 60 elected members including 19 reserved for Scheduled Tribes. It is also represented in Lok Sabha with two elected members and in Rajya Sabha with one member. But politicisation of socio-cultural demands of the three major ethnic communities followed by individualised interests of their leaders and higher level of corruption in government agencies responsible for economic developments gradually made the problem more and more complex. The foreign countries with vested interests also exploited the situation and they launched hate India campaign through certain sections of misguided youths, which gradually took up arms against Government of India to free their territory from "Indian occupation".
Ethnic Groups and Insurgency with Separate Identities:
With three major ethnic groups in Manipur, its insurgency is also primarily divided into insurgent groups of Meitei , Naga and Kuki. While the Meitei insurgents' prime objective is to free their pre-British territorial boundary from "Indian occupation", the Naga insurgents of Manipur support the demand of sovereign 'Nagalim' (Greater Nagaland) comprising of Nagaland along with the Naga majority areas of Manipur, Assam, Arunachal Pradesh and Burma (Myanmar). The Kukis on the other hand support the demand of separate Kukiland for which Kukis of Burma are also fighting.
Encouraged with the growth of Naga insurgency, a section of Meitei youths under the leadership of Hijam Irabot, a local communist leader opposed the merger of Manipur in Indian Union and set-up Manipur Red Guard with a view to wage war for liberation of this state from Indian occupation. This first symptom of secessionist tendency among the Meiteis gave birth to ethnicisation of politics in this state. The revolt though, failed to draw mass support and gradually fizzled out particularly after the death of Irabot, ethnic politics remained the focal point in the state, which even continues today.
The insurgency in Manipur like other states of northeast began with an ideology for restoration of the pre-British politico-ethnic supremacy of the Meiteis, later turned into ethnic conflict and finally entered into a cross-current of socio-political whirlpool due to individualized interest of the multiplying leaders of its respective insurgent groups. The Meiteis in the valley viewed the growth of Naga militancy in Nagaland and its close link with the Nagas of Manipur as danger to their political supremacy in the state. With a view to restore their pre-British pride some of the educated Meitei youths known to be the followers of Irabot regrouped and formed United National Liberation Front (UNLF) in 1964 under the leadership of Arambam Somorendra Singh and launched an underground movement. With sustained anti-Indian campaign a breakaway group of UNLF later established an underground government called Revolutionary Government of Manipur (RGM) under the leadership of Oinam Sudhir Kumar with its headquarter in erstwhile East Pakistan.
The Nagas and the Kukis of Manipur initially remained indifferent to the Meitei rebels to their obsession to respective ethnic politics. The Nagas of Manipur were supporting the movement of National Socialist Council of Nagaland (NSCN) demanding a sovereign 'Nagalim' (greater Nagaland) including the Naga inhabited territory of Assam, Manipur, Arunachal Pradesh and Burma. The Kukis, who live side by side with the Nagas however, never supported the latter instead often clashed with them and formed underground group to fight for their separate sovereign identity. The Kukis were getting support from Kuki National Organisation (KNO) and Kuki National Army (KNA) the insurgent groups in Burma. Similar to the demand of separate Kukiland in Burma, the Kukis of Manipur too came up with a demand for separate Kuki district and subsequently for a separate Kuki state.
Defeat of Pakistan in Indo-Pak war of 1971 and emergence of Bangladesh was a great set back to Meitei insurgents operating from the pre-war East Pakistan. Indian security forces arrested a number of insurgents but most of them were gradually released and the secessionist movement apparently subsided for a while. However, by late 1970s and early eighties the UNLF cadres, who were reportedly trained in erstwhile East Pakistan and China regrouped and revived their movement with the objective of ‘liberating Manipur from Indian occupation through armed struggle’. The insurgents asserted that their territory was forcibly merged with India and therefore, they had waged armed struggle for restoration of Manipur’s independence. (Encyclopedia of Northeast India – H.M.Barek, 2001). They founded a number of underground organizations prominently Peoples Liberation Army (PLA) led by Nameirakpam Bisheshwar allegedly a China trained rebel in 1978, Peoples Revolutionary Party of Kangleipak (PREPAK) led by R.K.Tulachandra in 1977, Kangleipak Communist Party (KCP) in 1980 etc. They started lawless violence in Manipur valley and indulged in looting of banks, raiding police stations, killing of police personnel, snatching their arms and so on.
The first violent incident in the post-statehood history of Manipur was noticed on July 17, 1978 when, a Manipur Sub-Inspector of police along with a constable were shot dead in Imphal, which shocked the unprepared state police. The rebels escaped with the revolver of the deceased. The state later was placed under President’s rule and the Government declared a number of insurgents organizations as unlawful associations under Unlawful Activities (Preventing) Act 1967. With declaration of entire Manipur Valley as disturbed area and imposition of Armed Forces (Special Power) Act, 1958, the security forces took strong actions and succeeded in killing almost all the front ranking insurgent leaders in encounter. They also arrested Bisheswar the founder leader of PLA and contained the insurgency to a great extent.
By late 1980s PLA cadres regrouped again and revived their activities. It formed Revolutionary People’s Front (RPF) as its political front and also a united front of Meitei rebel organizations under the banner of Revolutionary Joint Committee (RJC). Indo-Burma Revolutionary Front comprising of various Northeast ethnic insurgent groups including ULFA of Assam, NCSN (K) of Nagas and KNA of Kukis was also formed in 1990 though, it failed to make any significant dent in the movement. Later the Meitei rebels formed Manipur People’s Liberation Front (MPLF) incorporating UNLF, PLA and PREPAK. Now the avowed objective of the PLA is " to organise a revolutionary front covering the entire northeast and unite all ethnic groups, including the Meiteis, Nagas and Kukis to liberate Manipur. PLA, though, a Meitei outfit claims itself to be a trans-tribal organisation seeking to lead the non-Meiteis as well. It is alleged that the PLA has a government in exile in Sylhet district of Bangladesh with two training camps and five camps in Myanmar.
By mid nineties, the insurgents also raised the issue of outsiders ( Mayangs) and the Muslims (Pangals). A clash between Meiteis and Pangals in 1993 resulted in large number of deaths. Following the massacre of Muslims some militant Islamic outfits like NorthEast Minority Front (NEMF), Islamic National Front (INF), Islamic Revolutionary Front (IRF), United Islamic Liberation Army (UILA), Islamic Liberation Front (ILF), People’s United Liberation Front (PULF) were founded in Manipur valley to counter the challenge of Meitei insurgents.
Insurgents, their strength and Ethnic Loyalty:
By the end of last millennium the estimated strength of the cadres of various insurgent groups operating in hills and valley of Manipur reached around twenty thousand. They are reportedly in possession of sophisticated weapons like AK 47 and Rocket Launchers.
“According to an intelligence report, 19,590 insurgents and extremists were operating both in valley and hill areas of Manipur by 2001” (Bleeding Manipur by Phanjoubam Tarapot, Har Anand Publication, New Delhi, 2003, page178). Another book (Insurgency or Ethnic Conflict by S.C.Sharma, Magnum, 2000, page 217-18) listed emergence of 34 insurgent groups including ten inactive in the state. Leaving apart the ten inactive groups the list includes the following:
Peoples Liberation Army (PLA), United National Liberation Front (UNLF), Revolutionary Peoples Front (RPF), Peoples Revolutionary Party of Kangleipak (PREPAK), Manipur Liberation Front Army (MLFA), Kanglei Yawol Khnna Lup (KYKL), Revolutionary Joint Committee (RJC), Kangleipak Communist Party (KCP), Peoples United Liberation Front (PULF), National Socialist Council of Nagaland (NSCN-K), National Socialist Council of Nagaland (NSCN-I/M), Naga Lim Guard (NLG), Kuki National Front (KNF), Kuki National Army (KNA), Kuki Defence Force(KDF), Kuki Democratic Movement (KDM), Kuki National Organisation (KNO), Kuki Security Force (KSF), Chin Kuki Revolutionary Front (CKRF), Kom Rem Peoples Convention (KRPC), Zomi Revolutionary Volunteers(ZRV), Zomi Revolutionary Army (ZRA), Zomi Reunification Organisation (ZRO), and Hmar Peoples Convention (HPC).
Among over thirty militant groups, three Meitei militant outfits namely UNLF, PLA and PREPAK are most active in Manipur valley. They are presently under a unified platform namely Manipur People’s Liberation Front which they had formed in 1999 with Rajkumar Meghen @ Sanayaima (Chairman of UNLF) as convener but maintaining their independent identity with their respective strength which is as under:
· UNLF – Rajkumar Meghen @ Sanayaima (Chairman), Khundongbam Tomba @ Sunil or Pambi (General Secretary), A.Wangpa (Secretary), M. Nongyai (Secretary Organisation) and N. Thabal (Secretary of Publicity). With Manipur Peoples Army (MPA) as its armed wing and estimated cadre strength of 2500 it also maintains link with RPF, NSCN-K, ULFA, KNF, KYKL-T, National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) besides PLA and PREPAK.
· PLA – Irengbam Bhorot @ Chaoren (Chairman), Manoharmayum (Vice-Chairman) and estimated cadre strength of 3000. Apart from UNLF and PREPAK it is also maintaining link with KCP, NSCN –K, ULFA, Tripura People’s Democratic Front (TPDF), and Kachin Independent Army (KIA) of Myanmmar. It reportedly also received weapons from KIA. It is known to have largest following among the Meiteis.
· PREPAK – Achamba Singh @ Subhas (Chairman), Palliba Singh (General Secretary) and Tajila (C-in-C) With estimated cadre strength of 1500, it also maintains link with KYKL-T and NSCN – I/M which trained its activists. It also received arms from KIA.
All the three groups have common objective to free Manipur from Indian occupation. All of them are having their training camps in neighbouring Burma and Bangladesh. Apart from these three most active groups KYKL-O, KYKL –T and KCP are also operating in the valley though their strength is relatively much less. Both the factions of NSCN, and Kuki outfits are actively operating in the Hills of Manipur. While the estimated strength of NSCN-I/M in Manipur is 6000, NSCN-K’s strength is 3500.
Most of these underground organizations waged war either for sovereign Manipur state or for forming different smaller independent states by dividing the present Manipur. Government of India being common target of all the insurgent groups of entire northeast however worked as a common link between them, which they have been maintaining even today. As per a survey report (Survey of Conflict and Resolution in India's Northeast - Ajai Sahni) cumulative total of fatalities in insurgencies in Manipur between 1992 to April 2002 was 3090. The deaths include Civilians, security forces and militants.
Corruption. Drug running and Nexus between Militants & Politicians:
The sequence of events shows that the core ideology of all the insurgent groups moved around their respective distinct ethnic identity. With number of splinter groups due to individualized interest and personal ambition of the leaders, factional feud among them coupled with, realignment with different insurgent groups of entire northeast, and their support link with various foreign powers pushed the insurgency in a cross-current of strange socio-political whirlpool. Inter ethnic clashes over control in drug trafficking added another dimension to insurgency. This also encouraged other smaller tribes like Paite,Vaiphei and Hmar in establishing their respective armed groups. Criminalisation of insurgency, clandestine link of its leaders with various political parties, NGOs, Government officials and their pressure on allotment of Government contract works made the process of peace initiative more complicated.
Notwithstanding the continuous native rule by democratically elected successive governments after the departure of colonial power, frequent defection by opportunist, selfish and corrupt political leaders for sharing power put the state under socio-political confusion and the common people are facing the burnt of the on going turmoil in the state.
Protracted deployment of security forces in the state to handle the situation caused lot of inconvenience to common citizens and lawless violence perpetrated by the insurgents not merely disrupted the socio-economic development of the people but pushed them to the economic backwardness. This gave rise to compounding unemployment problem leading to involvement of youths in drug trafficking for easy money. The political leaders of the state irrespective of their political affiliation due to individualized interests are more bothered to share political power than to find out a peaceful solution to the problem of insurgency. They do not approve any strong action by Government of India to deal with the situation. They often sabotaged the peace initiative by the Government with any insurgent group due to their vested interests. The national leadership in the country too is more interested in power politics than to have a lasting solution to the problem, which has perhaps left the people in disarray.
Common citizens who want a normal and peaceful life are fed up with the no-win situation and their recent outburst in November 2004 over the custodial death of Manorama, a local lady was the frustrations of the people against the Government. This has again surcharged the atmosphere of Manipur valley thick and heavy. They wanted withdrawal of the Armed Forces (Special Power) Act and indulged in lawless violence in the region. Sensing the mood of the people, the state Government decided to de-notify this Act without concurrence of the Union Government. This shows a perceptual difference between state and centre in assessing the situation, which would adversely affect the on going peace initiative in the region.
Factors that sustained Insurgency:
Peace initiative by the Government of India ever since the insurgency began - failed to bring any negotiated settlement due to many factors such as:
· Failure of the national leadership in constitutional and cultural integration of the various ethnic groups of isolated northeast with the rest of diverse Indian society.
· Multiplicity of insurgent organisations.
· Top leaders of prominent insurgent groups are seldom interested in negotiated peace as "their children study in the best schools abroad and their family live in luxury" (Insurgency or Ethnic Conflict by S.C.Sharma, 2000, page215).
· Obstacle by Drug Traffickers, who control huge amount of underground economy with their money-spinning strength. Return of normalcy will hamper their unlawful business.
· Higher levels of corruption in State agencies, which are responsible for utilisation of substantial fund allocated by the centre for developmental programmes. Central Government has been bearing about 90% of the state budget but economic and industrial development is negligible.
· Negligible benefit to the common people through developmental programmes alienated them from the centre.
· Connivance between corrupts officials and the insurgents created underground economy under the control of the secessionists.
· It is alleged that the insurgent organisations collect monthly donations from government employees. "Going by the sources, the collection of money by various underground groups was nearly 100 crores of rupees a year" (Bleeding Manipur by Phanjoubam Tarapot, Har Anand Publication, New Delhi, 2003, page 54).
· Prolonged stay of security forces in the region has annoyed the people.
· Poor generation of employment opportunity for educated youths.
· Constant external support to all the insurgent groups.
· Liberalised trans-border movements with weak neighbours like Burma and Bangladesh wherefrom the insurgents operate conveniently.
· Demographic imbalance due to unabated illegal infiltration from Bangladesh, which has not been tackled by the Central Government effectively. The central leadership placed party interest above of the nation due to vote bank politics. Lt. Gen. (Retd) S.K.Sinha, PVSM, Governor of Jammu & Kashmir in his foreword in ACDIS (Arms Control, Disarmament, and International Security) Paper written by Jaideep Saikia quoted B.K.Nehru, Governor of Assam in late sixties saying: "The East Bengal Muslim was the main vote bank of the Congress party in Assam. Chaliha (then Chief Minister of Assam) doing as he did from the days of freedom struggle, was governed by the value of that time. He placed the national interest above those of the party. But the High Command thought otherwise. The party interests were paramount. Chaliha was ordered to stop the nonsense forthwith. This was of course welcomed by the Government of Pakistan. It had always pretended, as Bangladesh does now, that there is no migration from its territory to Assam". The present Muslim population in Manipur has increased to about 8 % of total state population, which were only around 4 % in 1901. Sinha also quoted Lt. Gen. Jameel Mahmood, the then GOC-in-C, Eastern Command telling him in 1992 that "unabated illegal migration from Bangladesh into Assam and Bengal has been posing a serious problem for our national security".
· Political leadership at centre has failed to instill confidence among the natives regarding its peace initiative since 1997. The on going peace-talk with NSCN (I/M) has aggravated their apprehension that the government might concede the demand of underground Naga militants for ‘Nagalim’(Greater Nagaland) by unification of Nagaland with the Naga majority areas of Assam, Manipur, Arunachal Pradesh and Myanmar.
· Non-Naga populations of Manipur do not like the idea of any territorial division of Manipur. Ever since the peace initiative by the government with a selected group of insurgents (NSCN-I/M) they organized protest rallies time to time. A huge rally of over five lakh people in the state capital Imphal on 1st August 1997 under the banner of All Manipur United Club Organisation (AIMUCO), a non-political body appeared to be a mass upsurge to oppose any such attempt. Similar rally was also organized in September 2000 as well as in June 2001.
· Extension of ceasefire agreement between Government of India and NSCN(I/M) was never liked by the non-Nagas of Manipur.
A close examination of the situation shows that the goals of the insurgents in Manipur are in conflict, which in long run will doom their own people if they ignore the ground reality. The scenario reflects the uncertain, anarchic and chaotic future of the state. With about 350 K.M. of international border and people of hostile attitude the on going insurgency is a not only a matter of security concern but is also relevant in the context of national unity.
Manipur Needs National Attention:
Just to blame the hostile foreign countries for keeping alive the insurgency - is not an answer to this decades long unanswered question. The gradual turn of events since Independence shows that local issues including caste and ethnicity have come to centre stage at the cost of national issues, which is not a healthy trend. Contemporary India of over half a century is a grown-up democracy and perhaps needs a radical transformation in its federal structure for constitutional integration of its entire population. It is for the political leadership of the country to decide whether national interest is beyond the party/power or not if it is really serious to tackle this problem.
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accualy thats wrong, it was the muslim moguls that gave the indian the name sindhus, that became the word hindus.. the people by the indhus river
The first time the word hindu appears in any written language is in the Avesta (ancient zoroastrian scripture). It is commonly accepted by Indologists that the word Hindu has it's origin in sindhu from the Persians use of that word as hindu. The ancient Persian language was very similar to sanskrit, kinda like the difference between portuguese and spanish. Anyways in that language they would use "h" instead of "s" often times. Therefore they called sindhu; hindu, just like they called asura; ahura in old persian.
From Wikipedia
In the Rigveda, theoretically the holiest Hindu scripture, the Indo-Aryans mention their land as Sapta Sindhu (the land of the seven rivers, one of them being the Indus; sapta=seven). This corresponds to hapta-hindu in the Avesta (Vendidad: Fargard 1.18)—the holiest scriptures of the Iranian Zoroastrians. The term was used for people who lived in the Indian sub-continent around or beyond the river Sindhu.From Sita Ram Goel in "HinduTemples: What Happened to Them? Part 2"
http://www.bharatvani.org/books/htemples1/index.htm
http://www.bharatvani.org/books/htemples2/index.htm
"There is, therefore, no running away from the fact that the word “Hindu” occurs for the first time in the Avesta of the ancient Iranians who used this word for designating this country as well as its people. They did not have to coin this word out of thin air. It was simply their way of pronouncing the word “Sindhu”, the name of the mighty river which has always been a major landmark for travellers to this country from the north and the west. To start with, the word seems to have been used for provinces and the people in the vicinity of the Sindhu. But in due course, it was extended to cover all parts of this country and all its people. The word also spread to countries to the north and west of Iran. The ancient Greeks were quite familiar with the words “Indus” and “Indoi” - their way of pronouncing “Sindhu” and “Sindhîs”. The ancient Arabs, Turks (Šakas, KuSãNas, etc.), Mongolian (HûNas, Kirãtas, etc.) and the Chinese were also familiar with the word, sometimes in their own variations on it such as “Shin-tu”. It may thus be said that the word “Hindu” had acquired a national connotation, since the days of the Avesta, although in the eyes of only the foreigners. At the same time, it may be noted that the word was oblivious of the fact that “Hindus” were organized in numerous castes, and d to many religious sects.
There is also evidence that at some stage in their history the ancient Iranians started using the word “Hindu” in more than a purely descriptive sense. The word seems to have acquired for them a derogatory meaning as well. Scholars are not quite certain, nor in complete agreement, about the nature of differences that developed between the Vedics of this country and the Avestans of Iran. The two people had had much in common, and for a long time, in the realm of language, religion, rituals, and ethical norms. It is surmised that the rift appeared with the rise of Zarathustra (Zoroaster) as a religious reformer in the region round Bãhlîka (Balkh), and became bitter by the time the Archaeminid Dynasty rose to power in Iran. Zorastrianism became the state religion of Iran, and the Iranians started looking down upon the Hindus as worshippers of “dev” (Skt. deva), their word for demon. They were using the word “Ahura” (Skt. Asura) for their own Deity."
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"Hindu" is not a religion as a previous guest mentioned. Hinduism is a word that denotes a category of religions all of which share certain beliefs i.e samsara, karma, mantras, authority of vedas etc.
Popularly among many Indians the concept of Hindu has more of a cultural and ethnic inference then a religious one. To be a Hindu to many Indians means being an Indian non muslim more then anything else.
So is Iskcon Hindu?
Srila Prabhupada sometimes would preach no. But there was a purpose to that. Indologists would claim that Iskcon is Hindu, most Indians would claim Iskcon is Hindu, and often times people in Iskcon claim Iskcon is Hindu as well. In a sense Iskcon is Hindu because Hindu is an umbrella term which covers all faiths which accept the vedas as divine revelation. Srila Prabhupada didn't want Iskcon to be seen as presenting "Hinduism" in the non Hindu world. In India it is alright to claim to be Hindu because most people understand that Hinduism is not a specific religious belief system but an umbrella term or a category of religions. In the west when Srila Prabhupada preached, the masses of people had very little to no knowledge of Indian or Hindu religions. In most people's minds Hindus were polytheists (or monists i.e impersonalists, mayavadis) who believe in the caste system. That was the extent of most people's idea of what Hinduism was all about. Since gaudiya vaisnavism (Iskcon) does not teach polytheism, nor monism, and rejects the caste system, Srila Prabhupada decided that it was wise to claim in the west that Iskcon is not Hinduism.
In reality Hinduism is a word invented by the British. When they came in contact with India they used a Persian word for Indians, which was hindu (derived from sindhu: river, India near Persia was called Hindustan: The land of rivers). The British lumped the various vedic related religious sects of India into a single word; Hinduism. To scholars Iskcon is Hindu because it is a vaisnava sect which bases it's beliefs and practices on the sruti and smriti (vedic literature and associated literature). Iskcon is a branch of a mainstream Hindu religious sect to Indologists and students of religion and to most Indians.
But for preaching purposes outside of India Srila Prabhupada didn't want Iskcon to be seen as Hindu because most people had a misconception about Hinduism. Today that has changed somewhat, so often times you will see devotees preach that Iskcon is a traditional mainstream Hindu religion.
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Since there are so many guests posting, I will repeat my original question, so you will know who you're responding to. My original post was-"Shiva,
The scriptures says that the jiva souls in Vaikunta are full of bliss and 'full of knowledge'. But your post seems to contradict the nature of the jiva souls in Vaikunta. If they do not know their position, where they are and the nature of the Personality they're enjoying with, how can they be considered 'full of knowledge'? If Jivas in the material world can understand this fact, how is it that residents of Vaikunta cannot understand it?"
Your response was-
I am disappointed with your response, Shiva. The very reason I directed that question to you was because I've read many of your posts on this forum and found them to be highly intelligent and informative and was hoping that you would provide an answer to my question. Please understand that I have absolutely no difficulty in accepting what Srila Prabhupada says in his Bhagavatam commentary. If I had doubts, I wouldn't be discussing his teachings on this forum. My question wasn't meant to challenge. It was a straight forward question that was meant to help dispel my doubt.
Vaikuntha is where everyone knows God is God and is fully self realized. Since I don't know who you are and what your level of knowledge is on the Bhagavat I took it for granted that you are a gaudiya vaisnava and therefore should know that Vaikuntha and Goloka are different. That is what we are taught as beginners. It is not some great philosophical struggle. It is simple and quite clear. If you make it difficult to know who you are and what level of exposure you have had to gaudiya siddhanta then what can you expect? I gave the answer that I would give to a gaudiya vaisnava. They should know that Vaikuntha and Goloka are different and that in Vaikuntha everyone relates with Lord Narayana in knowledge of the majesty and power of the Lord. Make yourself easier to understand where you are coming from and then you will get the reciprocation you desire.
It is a lack of respect to those who consistently use a single name on a forum to respond to us and ask questions if you do not do the same. The simple and easy method to make conversations easy on a forum is to use a single name, How difficult is it to do that? How can I take people very seriously if they don't make a few seconds effort to either get an account or at the least to sign a consistent name? How do I know you are not the person who made false and defamatory comments about me earlier in this thread and who just seeks to be antagonistic for hateful reasons? Give some respect if you want respect.
Ultimately if you accept the verdict of the Bhagavatam and the previous acaryas on the nature of reality then what is the problem? There is no philosophical way to expound on this issue. We are simply told what is what and you either have faith or you don't. If you want a philosophical exposition about what the sastra says about "full of knowledge" when it comes to Goloka, then you will be unsatisfied. This is not a philosophical quandry. We are told what life is like in Goloka and in Vaikuntha for the jivas, we have no way to prove that philosophically, you either have faith in the words of the Bhagavats or you don't. What more can you ask of me about something that cannot be proven philosophically? It's not like debating the nature of the soul and our relationship with the material world. Not everything that we are taught from the vedic sastra is provable, much is based on faith. Just like I can't philosophically prove that Krishna is Swayam Bhagavan to another person, no one can. We simply accept what the sastra says until we have that knowledge revealed to us directly.
You said you wanted to "dispel doubt". Doubt about what? You said "If I had doubts, I wouldn't be discussing his teachings on this forum." You say you have no doubts then the very next line you say are looking to overcome doubts? How am I to know what you mean by that if you don't make yourself clear? You shouldn't expect vaisnavas to be at your beck and call to answer what you want in the way you want it, especially if you don't make an effort to better enunciate your position first. Krishna gives you entrance into divine knowledge depending on your level of sincerity and humility. I am not the controller of what you read here, Krishna controls how you are treated and what you experience at all times.
Srimad Bhagavatam 11.13.24
manasa vacasa drishtya
grihyate 'nyair apindriyaih
aham eva na matto 'nyad
iti budhyadhvam anjasa
Within this world, whatever is perceived by the mind, speech, eyes or other senses is Me alone and nothing besides Me. All of you please understand this by a straightforward analysis of the facts.
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My point is that Goloka is not a Godless planet of people that follow hedonistic pleasures in abject indifference to God and religious principles.I never said it was, that is your own projection in a silly attempt to denigrate me and to try to seem superior to me as well as all knowing and self realized. This is my last interaction with you.
Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 8.221 purport
In all, there are sixty-four items listed for the rendering of service unto Krsna, and these are the regulative principles enjoined in the sastras and given by the spiritual master. One has to serve Krsna according to these regulative principles, but if one develops spontaneous love for Krsna as exhibited in the activities of those who live in Vrajabhumi, one attains the platform of raganuga-bhakti. One who has developed this spontaneous love is eligible for elevation to the platform enjoyed by the inhabitants of Vrajabhumi. In Vrajabhumi, there are no regulative principles set forth for Krsna's service. Rather, everything is carried out in spontaneous, natural love for Krsna. There is no question of following the principles of the Vedic system. Such principles are followed within this material world, and as long as one is on the material platform, he has to execute them. However, spontaneous love of Krsna is transcendental. It may seem that the regulative principles are being violated, but the devotee is on the transcendental platform. Such service is called gunatita, or nirguna, for it is not contaminated by the three modes of material nature. -
then can you share with us the shastric reference where Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur says that Goloka is actually based off of the Gokula prototype?go figure.....
can you handle the inconceivable, or must everything fit into your personal box of mental logic?
Hmmm. What is your point? If you simply want to argue for arguments sake I have better things to do. Obviously you know that it is in the Jaiva Dharma what you ask, yet you seem to want to play some kind of silly game of pretense and prosecution, Is that proper vaisnava behavior? I will not respond until you act without dishonesty and without the seeking to diminish my reputation as your mind game of choice of the moment. If you can behave then I will interact with you, otherwise not.
p.s. Bhaktivinoda does not say that "Goloka is actually based off of the Gokula prototype" and neither did I.
Has anyone had any spiritual experiences?
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You are avoiding the point. You said belief in God cannot be validated by experience. That is the point I disagree with. In fact there is nowhere in any vedic teaching which agrees with you. You can come up with all sorts of speculative arguments but you cannot come with anything else. Also saying "faith validates God" makes no sense. People constantly lose faith in God. They may have faith at the beginning and then take to a religious process with conviction and dedication but later lose faith in either the religion or God altogether. I know from online conversations that many devotees who were long time members of either ISKCON or other gaudiya parivars eventually lost faith not only in gaudiya vaishnavism but God altogether. Faith did not validate god for them nor for countless other people who lost faith. Only God validates the exsitence of God. If it is your karma to have faith in God and follow a religion only to later lose faith in God then that will happen by God's arrangement, if it is your karma to experience God without prior education in this life then God will arrange it. God is in control of how and when people develop faith or lose it.