shiva
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I haven't see anything written by Shiva saying that he thinks that living entities are created in heavenly planets.I think his understanding is much more correct than that.
He says, from what I can gather and which seems to be what shastra is saying, that the fallen jivas are manifested in the Viraja where the tatastha-shakti of Maha-Vishnu is manifested. It is called tatastha-shakti because it is manifested on the marginal plane between the material and spiritual world.
The same shakti manifested in Vaikuntha is not marginal.
I share the same idea.
Actually, he is correct in saying that not even a spark in the self-illuminating brahmajyoti can fall down as outside the Viraja in the Vaikuntha realm.
However, the Viraja is also spiritual.
It is the perspiration of Maha-Vishnu.
It is spiritual water of sorts.
Maha-Vishnu lies down in that Viraja (causal ocean) and manifests his jiva shakti in that marginal tatastha realm of the Viraja.
The jivas manifested in the Viraja are marginal because they are manifested in that marginal plane.
There are unlimited jivas in the brahmajyoti of Vaikuntha that are not manifested in the marginal plane but within the svarupa-shakti.
Those jivas cannot fall down because they have no exposure to Maya in the mahat-tattva.
Only the marginal jivas manifested in the Viraja in exposure to Maya-shakti can fall down.
Shiva has got it right.
But, he seems to say that there is no brahmajyoti in Vaikuntha but only on the outer limits of Vaikuntha. I disagree with that.
It is both. Not one or the other as he seems to be saying.
The brahmajyoti is all pervading in Vaikuntha and in the material world.
There is no place in all of existence where the brahmajyoti does not pervade.
Mostly I was arguing with him for sport and to incite discussion and debate.
This also helps me to understand questions that need to be addressed and answered authoritatively through shastra.
I haven't seen anyone on this forum yet that has the technical aspects of the siddhanta down as precisely as Shiva.
I am impressed.
He has passed beyond ISKCON myth and dogma and found the actual shastric Gaudiya siddhanta.
I commend him for his sharp intellect and non-political dedication to understanding siddhanta proper.
Very few if any ISKCON devotees have it down that good.
There are a few I have seen on the web that know the shastric siddhanta, but they are not ISKCON politicians.
The few in ISKCON that do know the siddhanta won't tell the truth because they are not willing to take the flack for going against the GBC position papers and political position. They are more concerned with maintaining GBC rubber stamp approval and keeping the positions as ISKCON preachers.
The GBC is too embroiled in politics to do a deep study of shastra.
They are distracted by externals; position and prestige within the society.
Aw shucks
I'd like to thank my manager, my agent, my wonderful writers, love you guys. I want to thank my wonderful cast and crew, they're the best in the business and I love working with you guys! I want to thank my hair stylist who makes me what I am, she's my best friend, really, I love you. Especially I want to thank my mom who has supported me from the start and has always believed in me even when no one else did. I love you mom!. Of yeah I almost forgot, thank you Jesus, couldn't have done it without you
I had a speech, but I lost it...no wait a sec...here it is...ahem... -
What Prabhupada meant is that the inherent nature of the jiva is that of servant of the Lord. So in that sense when we are in the conditioned state we are not really eternally conditioned even though we are called that because eternal means without end, and there is an end to conditioned life. What nitya baddha means is that time begins for the jiva when he enters the material world, and until he leaves the material world there was never a time that he wasn't conditioned. So therefore he is called eternally conditioned. But since all jivas will become liberated therefore in the more literal sense of the word eternal the jiva is not eternally conditioned because he will become liberated. And likewise since the nature of the jiva as a sakti of the lord is that of servant of the lord (the nature of sakti is that sakti has no ability to do anything independentely of the lord), therefore the real nature of the jiva is eternally liberated because that state will go on forever and it is his inherent nature.
Bhaktivinoda explains the relationship between god and sakti
From Jaiva DharmaAdvaita: Bhagavan Visnu is the embodiment of supreme consciousness, and He is the one supreme controller of all. Everything that exists is His potency. Potency is not an independent object, but rather the functional power inherent within an object. To say that sakti (potency) is the root of everything is thoroughly opposed to metaphysical truth. Sakti cannot exist independent of the object from which it originates. We must first accept the existence of an object that possesses full spiritual consciousness, otherwise accepting sakti by itself is like dreaming of a flower in the sky.
The commentary on Vedanta states, sakti-saktimator abhedah: "There is no difference between the potency and the possessor of potency." This means that sakti is not a separate object. The Supreme Person who is the master of all potencies is the one truly abiding substance. Sakti is the quality, or inherent function, that is subordinate to His will. You have said that sakti is the embodiment of consciousness, that it possesses will, and that it is beyond the influence of the three qualities of material nature. This is correct, but only insofar as sakti operates fully under the support of a pure conscious entity, and is thus considered identical with that powerful entity. Desire and consciousness depend on the Supreme Being. Desire cannot exist in sakti; rather, sakti acts in accordance with the desire of the Supreme Being. You have the power to move, and when you desire to move, that power will act. To say "the power is moving" is merely a figure of speech; it actually means that the person who possesses that power is moving.
Jiva Goswami writes in Paramatma Sandarbha
na rte tvat kriyate kincanare ity adav antaryami- caitanya-sambandhena bhavatity aggi-karac ca cuddhad eva kartrtvam pravartate.na - not; rte - without; tvat - you; kriyate - is done; kicana - anything; are - Oh; iti - thus; adav - beginning; antaryami - of the Supersoul; caitanya-sambandhena - with awareness; bhavati - is; iti - thus; aggi-karac - from accepting; ca - and; cuddhat - from purity; eva - certainly; kartrtvam - the state of being the doer; pravartate - does.
In the scriptures it is said:
"O Lord, without Your help no one has the power to do anything."
In this way the pure soul understands the position of the Supersoul, the the Supersoul is, ultimately, the real doer of activities
Here we see explained that the jiva as a sakti of the lord is inherently servant of God. Even if we do not want to serve God still we have no independence because our nature is that of dependence on the lord. We cannot do anything unless the lord allows.
Purport Bhagavad Gita 11.43
Only Krsna is God, and everyone is His servant. Everyone is complying with His order. There is no one who can deny His order. Everyone is acting according to His direction, being under His superintendence. As stated in the Brahma-samhita, He is the cause of all causes. -
Such explanations about the living entity somehow makes one ask, why Krishna created the living entities in the first place? - And do we need "Vaishnavism" for such kind of religious wisdom? Krishna created the living entities for His pleasure, they're His eternal children and He wants them to come back to His eternal kingdom to enjoy eternal blissful live in the spiritual world. If we have so much it should be clear that the falldown into this material world is nothing but the son who left the shelter of the father. Since we are individuals we all have individual stories of our falldown into this material world. Why turn Vaishnavism into a strange weird meander of technical dogmas which no one can comprehend?Well you can create any dogma you like. The gauidya vaisnava teaching is very specific. Sastra makes it clear why the jivas exist; to bring pleasure to the Lord. It also makes it very clear why jivas are in the material world; to become free from avidya (ignorance) maya (illusion) and and to develop our consciousness to the point where we can give the Lord pleasure. Guruvani and I agree on the large picture, we are just debating more esoteric aspects of the philosophy. We are not turinng vaisnavism into a "strange weird meander of technical dogmas which no one can comprehend". We are not creating these teachings. Why do these teachings exist if they have no point? You can find al these teachings in the upanishads, the puranas, the bhagavatam, the work of the 6 goswamis, the writings of the gaudiya acaryas, etc. People can understand what we are saying, maybe not everyone, but if we understand it why should you think that "no one can comprehend"? Prabhupada's books are full of these topics, as are Jiva Goswami's Sat Sandarbhas and many other Gaudiya acaryas. Ever read Jaiva Dharma by Bhaktivinoda Thakura? Or the Upanishads? Baladeva Vidyabhusana's commentary on the Vedanta Sutra; Govinda Bhasya? Or have you studied the Bhagavatam or the Caitanya Caritamrta very much iin depth? If you do you will see all these topics covered extensively. Maybe not everyone is philosophically inclined, not everyone has the tempermant of a brahmana, but many people are and do. All the past acaryas have spoken or written extensively on these topics, were they also wasting their time on stuff no one can comprehend?
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From Jiva Goswami's Bhagavat Sandarbha
Sri Suta Gosvami simultaneously describes two qualities of Vaikuntha--it is beyond the material world and it is a place from where no one falls downYou claim that the brahmjyoti is vaikuntha. You also claim that the jiva comes from the brahmajyoti. We are taught that the tatastha sakti is the source or the same as the jiva and that the spiritual world is the same or manifested from cit sakti (swarupa sakti).
If the brahmajyoti is the same as vaikuntha then that would contradict the teaching that the jiva is manifest from tatastha sakti and that the spiritual world manifests from swarupa sakti. If the brahmjyoti is the spiritual world then that would mean that the jiva is manifest from swarupa sakti instead of tatastha sakti. But clearly we are told that the tatastha sakti is neither in the spiritual world nor the material world, it is on the border between the two.
In "Sri Caitanya's Teachings" Bhaktisiddhanta writes
Vishnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His eternal Abode, another potency is for creating all human souls who are emanation from His Tatastha-sakti found between the temporal and eternal worlds. By this potency He creates human souls. The human souls has two different predilections. If he desires to serve God-head he is allowed into the eternal Region. If he desires to lord it over this world he comes down for enjoying in different capacities the products of the Deluding potency.This position, which is like a geometrical line, is designated tatastha-sakti, the fountain-head of all human souls. Tatastha-sakti is located between the two potencies of Vishnu one of which maintains this transforming world and the other is the source of the manifestation of the eternal world that does not change like this world. These potencies belong to the Personality of God-head Vishnu
Tattva Viveka 2.4 by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura
It should be understood that the jiva soul is neither produced of this material world, nor created in the transcendental world. They are originated from the marginal line between the transcendental and mundane spheresBhaktivinoda writes in Jaiva Dharma
Vrajanatha: In the svarupa of the jiva there is no product of maya. This has to be accepted. The nature of the jiva can be influenced by maya. This I have also understood. Now I want to know if the cit-sakti has created the jiva by giving it the marginal nature?Babaji: No, cit-sakti is the complete potency of Krishna. Whatever it manifests are all nitya-siddha objects. The jiva is not nitya-siddha; he becomes sadhana-siddha through sadhana and enjoys bliss like the nitya-siddha. The four types of sakhis of Sri Radha are nitya-siddhas; they are kaya-vyuha manifestations of Sri Radha, who is the personification of the cit-sakti.
All the jivas have appeared from the jiva-sakti of Lord Krishna. Just as cit-sakti is Krishna's complete potency, similarly jiva-sakti is His incomplete potency. All complete objects have appeared from the complete potency, similarly from the incomplete potency come the unlimited atomic jivas. Lord Krishna presiding over each of His potencies manifest His various expansions correspondingly. Presiding over the cit potency He manifests His Krishna form and that of Lord Narayana, the Lord of Vaikuntha. Presiding over His jiva-sakti He manifests His vilasa form of Baladeva in Vraja. Becoming situated in His maya-sakti He manifests the three Vishnu forms--Karanodakasayi, Kshirodakasayi, and Garobhodakasayi.
From His Krishna form He manifests all the cit entities. From His Baladeva form as Sesha tattva He manifests the nitya-muktas, associate jivas to render service in eight ways to Lord Krishna, the Seshi tattva. Again, becoming Sankarshana as Sesha rupa He manifests eight types of eternal associates to render service in eight ways to Seshi, Narayana. Maha Vishnu, an incarnation of Sankarshana, becoming situated in the jiva-sakti as Supersoul, manifests the living entities of the material world. All these jivas (coming from Maha Vishnu) are disposed to maya. Until they attain the shelter of hladini-sakti of the cit world by the mercy of the Lord they are prone to be defeated by maya. The unlimited conditioned jivas being defeated by maya remain under the influence of her three modes. Therefore the principle is that only jiva-sakti manifests jivas and not cit-sakti.
From Bhaktisiddhanta's "Vaisnavism Real and Apparent"
The inconceivably narrow line of demarcation between land and water or the line where land and water meet is called Tata; so also the meeting line of the Cit world or the eternal abode of the Supreme Lord and the Acit world or the region of maya is called Tata. The power of the Supreme Lord displayed at the Tata is known as the Tatastha (lying at the Tata) or marginal power. All the jivas being the display of this power, have the inherent oscillating tendency and capability of going to the Cit or the Acit world. Tata not being a resting place, jivas must go this side or thatFrom Srila Prabhupada
C.C. Madhya 20.108-109
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains these verses as follows: Sri Sanatana Gosvami asked Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, "Who am I?" In answer, the Lord replied, "You are a pure living entity. You are neither the gross material body nor the subtle body composed of mind and intelligence. Actually you are a spirit soul, eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Soul, Krsna. Therefore you are His eternal servant. You belong to Krsna's marginal potency. There are two worlds -- the spiritual world and the material world -- and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency. You are related with Krsna as one and simultaneously different. Because you are spirit soul, you are one in quality with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but because you are a very minute particle of spirit soul, you are different from the Supreme Soul. Therefore your position is simultaneously one with and different from the Supreme Soul. The examples given are those of the sun itself and the small particles of sunshine and of a blazing fire and the small particles of fire."If the jiva originates from the brahmajyoti and the brahmajyoti is the spiritual world then the above statements are wrong. Here Srila Prabhupada quotes Bhaktivinoda who states that the jiva comes from neither the spiritual nor material world. Therefore the brahmajyoti cannot be considered to be the same as Vaikuntha. Just like everything is comprised of brahman, which is spiritual, including vaikuntha, but at the same time not everything is considered to be comprised of spiritual energy. Maya sakti is considered to be different then cit sakti, the material world is said to be different from the spiritual world, one is said to be comprised of cit sakti and the other is said to be comprised of maya sakti. But still they are both comprised of brahman and can be said to be the same thing. So even though the brahmajyoti is everywhere, still vaikuntha is considered to be different then the brahmajyoti because they are manifested as different. So that is why brahmajyoti is different then vaikuntha. Even though ultimately they are both simply manifestations of brahman or Krishna, still they are categorized as different for various reasons. The vedic teachings categorize brahman depending on what action Krishna is taking.
Bhaktivinoda writes in Jaiva Dharma
In the Narada-pancaratra, Sri Durga Devi explains:tava vaksasi radhaham rase vrindavane vane
In the forest known as Vrindavana, I am Your internal sakti, Sri Radhika, who adorns Your chest in the rasa dance.
From this statement of Durga Devi, it is clear that there is only one sakti, not two. That sakti is Radhika when She manifests as the internal potency, and she is Durga when she is manifested as the external potency. In the condition of freedom from contact with the material modes of nature, visnu-maya is the cit-sakti. That same visnu-maya is the jada-sakti when it is endowed with the modes of nature.
The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag.3.16.26, purport)
This ordinary living being is of two kinds--nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other is eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world and they never fall into the material world. (Bhag. 5.11.12, purport)
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You are confused because you don't know the difference between Vaikuntha and Vaikunthaloka.The entire spiritual realm is Vaikuntha including the brahmajyoti that is the basis of the Vaikuntha realm.
Vaikunthaloka means Vaikuntha planet.
Narayana is having pastimes in Vaikuntha but in Vaikunthaloka.
Vaikuntha doesn't mean "lila" as you said before.
Vaikuntha means "without misery".
The brahmajyoti is also without misery.
It is Vaikuntha.
It is the source of the Vaikuntha planets where Lord Narayana has his pastimes.
Wow, now you are going to say I said things I never did and then argue againt that fabrication? I didn't say "vaikuntha means lila". I said "Vaikuntha is the realm of lila." And then I backed that up with citations after you said that is a concoction. Vaikuntha is the residence of Lord Narayana and the various Vishnu forms. Above that is Goloka. The brahmajyoti is not in Vaikuntha, and as already described in my pervious post the brahmajyoti is not the source of Vaikuntha, you took Prabhupada's words out there context. He simply meant that everything is comprised of brahman. Krishna is the source of the brahmajyoti and vaikuntha, the effect is not the cause as you would have it.
From Srila Sridhara Maharaja
Goloka and Vaikuntha servitors are also seen to be within the jurisdiction of the brahmanda, the material universe, but that is only a play, lila. They come from that higher plane only to take part in the Lord's pastimes and then return. The fallen souls come from the marginal position within the brahmajyoti and not from Vaikuntha.At first, sympathy and apathy develop in a crude form, just as when a sprout springs up with two leaves. And gradually these two things help us to dive deep into this mundane world. Upon retiring from the world of exploitation, the soul may return to his former position in the brahmajyoti as spirit. But, if the soul has gathered the tendency of dedication through his previous devotional activities, he does not stop there; he pierces through the brahmajyoti and goes towards Vaikuntha.
From Bhaktivinoda's Jaiva Dharma
The spiritual world is enclosed by a wall of light called the Brahmajyoti. Beyond that wall may be seen the spiritual sky of Vaikuntha. In Vaikuntha the Lord's opulence is prominent. There Lord Narayanacandra, the king of kings, is served by numberless spiritual opulences. In Vaikuntha the Lord accepts only the svakiya rasa. There Sri, Bhu, Nila and the other wives serve their husband, Lord Narayana. Above Vaikuntha is Goloka.You can conclude that the brahmajyoti is the same as vaikuntha if you like. I disagree and claim that vaikuntha is the abode of the Lord where he performs pastimes. I disagree with your assertion that the word vaikuntha means something different then the abode of the Lord ,and the subsequent use of brahmajyoti as cognate with vaikuntha. Yes the literal meaning of vaikuntha is without misery or anxiety, but so what what? That doesn't mean that any situation where there is no misery is the abode of the Lord. It's like claiming that because Goloka means cow world or planet that anyplace where there are lots of cows is where Krishna's nitya lila pastimes take place. Vaikuntha is the abode of the Lord. Brahmajyoti is the undifferentiated plane of consciousness. No one falls from Vaikuntha, anyone can fall from the Brahmajyoti.
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The brahmajyoti creates Vaikuntha according to Srila Prabhupada, so your claim that the brahmajyoti is not Vaikuntha is not correct.There is no difference.
The Vaikuntha exists within the brahmajyoti.
The Vaikuntha doesn't create the brahmajyoti.
The brahmajyoti creates Vaikuntha.
You are confused. You are using the following from Prabhupada to extrapolate the idea that the brahmajyoti is in vaikuntha and the same as vaikuntha. Yet we have numerous direct statements saying that the brahmajyoti is outside of vaikuntha and not the same as vaikuntha. Why you choose to extrapolate a meaning which contradicts direct unequivocal statements is a mystery.
"As stated in the Brahma-samhita (yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti- [bs. 5.40]), the Brahman effulgence emanating from the body of the Supreme Lord creates innumerable planets in both the spiritual and material worlds; thus these planets are creations of the Supreme Personality of Godhead."
This is simply saying that Brahman is the ingredient of all created things, sarvam khalv idam brahma, everything is brahman because everything is manifested out of God and created by God. But still there are differences. If we take your logic that because the spiritual planets are created out of brahman therefore the brahmajyoti is not different from vaikuntha, then we can say that the material world is also not different from the brahmajyoti or vaikuntha because the material world is also created from brahman.
From Srimad Bhagavatam 7.9.31
In Bhagavad-gita (7.10) the Lord says:bijam mam sarva-bhutanam
viddhi partha sanatanam
"O son of Prtha, know that I am the original seed of all existences." In the Vedic literature it is said, isavasyam idam sarvam, yato va imani bhutani jayante and sarvam khalv idam brahma. All this Vedic information indicates that there is only one God and that there is nothing else but Him. The Mayavadi philosophers explain this in their own way, but the Supreme Personality of Godhead asserts the truth that He is everything and yet is separate from everything. This is the philosophy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, which is called acintya-bhedabheda-tattva. Everything is one, the Supreme Lord, yet everything is separate from the Lord. This is the understanding of oneness and difference.
The example given in this regard -- vasukalavad asti-tarvoh -- is very easy to understand. Everything exists in time, yet there are different phases of the time factor -- present, past and future. Present, past and future are one. Every day we can experience the time factor as morning, noon and evening, and although morning is different from noon, which is different from evening, all of them taken together are one. The time factor is the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but the Lord is separate from the time factor. Everything is created, maintained and annihilated by time, but the Supreme Lord, the Personality of Godhead, has no beginning and no end. He is nityah sasvatah -- eternal, permanent. Everything passes through time's phases of present, past and future, yet the Lord is always the same. Thus there is undoubtedly a difference between the Lord and the cosmic manifestation, but actually they are not different. Accepting them to be different is called avidya, ignorance.
True oneness, however, is not equivalent to the conception of the Mayavadis. The true understanding is that the differences are manifested by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The seed is manifested as a tree, which displays varieties in its trunk, branches, leaves, flowers and fruits. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has therefore sung, kesava tuya jagata vicitra: "My dear Lord, Your creation is full of varieties." The varieties are one and at the same time different. This is the philosophy of acintya-bhedabheda-tattva. The conclusion given in Brahma-samhita [bs. 5.1] is this:
isvarah paramah krsnah
sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah
anadir adir govindah
sarva-karana-karanam
"Krsna, known as Govinda, is the supreme controller. He has an eternal, blissful, spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin, for He is the prime cause of all causes." Because the Lord is the supreme cause, everything is one with Him, but when we consider varieties, we find that one thing is different from another.
We may conclude, therefore, that there is no difference between one thing and another, yet in varieties there are differences. In this regard, Madhvacarya gives an example concerning a tree and a tree in fire. Both trees are the same, but they look different because of the time factor. The time factor is under the control of the Supreme Lord, and therefore the Supreme Lord is different from time. An advanced devotee consequently does not distinguish between happiness and distress. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.14.8):
tat te 'nukampam susamiksamano
bhunjana evatma-krtam vipakam
When a devotee is in a condition of so-called distress, he considers it a gift or blessing from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When a devotee is always thus situated in Krsna consciousness in any condition of life, he is described as mukti-pade sa daya-bhak, a perfect candidate for returning home, back to Godhead. The word daya-bhak means "inheritance." A son inherits the property of his father. Similarly, when the devotee is fully Krsna conscious, undisturbed by dualities, he is sure that he will return home, back to Godhead, just as one inherits his father's property.
If we take the statement in bold in the above purport literally and without the proper context, then we can conclude that time is God. In the same way you are taking Prabhupada's words and the concept he is trying to get across out of context when he says that everything is created from brahman. Why do you want to insist that the brahmajyoti is in vaikuntha or the same as vaikuntha when we are told repeatedly that is not the case?
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Sorry.Wrong again.
Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.146-151
New York, December 3, 1966
So, if Vaikuntha is in the brahmajyoti, then how can the brahmajyoti not be Vaikuntha?
Vaikuntha is manifested out of the brahmajyoti.
Vaikuntha is only a manifestation of the brahmajyoti.
So, the source of Vaikuntha is something less than Vaikuntha?
Your logic is weak.
How can the sunshine not be the sun? The sun is situated within sunshine. Therefore the sunshsine is the sun. Therefore the sunshine created the sun. This is your logic. The conception that "vaikuntha is manifested out of the brahmajyoti" and "Vaikuntha is only a manifestation of the brahmajyoti" is ridiculous. Clearly we are told that the brahmajyoti is outside of the vaikuntha planets. Your idea that "vaikuntha is only a manifestation of the brahmajyoti" and "the source of vaikuntha" shows that you are now just floundering in a sea of misconception and concoction.
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So does Srila Prabhupada:Bhagavad-Gita As It Is - Introduction.
so, maybe you need to start with basic teachings of Srila Prabhupada before you go making false accusations?
There is a difference between the "spiritual sky" or paravyoma and Vaikuntha. The "spiritual sky" or paravyoma is where the vaikuntha planets are situated, but that is not illuminating the vaikuntha planets. An analogy is the sun and the sunshine. Sunshine surrounds the sun but the sunshine is not illuminating the sun, the sun is self luminous. Similarly the brahmajyoti is not illuminating vaikuntha, it is illuminated from Vaikuntha. Within the paravyoma are the vaikuntha planets which are self luminous.
Purport from Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.192
At the top of the paravyoma, the spiritual sky, there is Goloka Vrndavana, which is divided into three parts. Two of the parts, called Mathura and Dvaraka, are the residences of Krsna in His prabhava-vilasa forms. Balarama, Krsna's vaibhava-prakasa, is eternally situated in Gokula. From the quadruple prabhava-vilasa, twenty-four forms of the vaibhava-vilasa are expanded. Each has four hands holding weapons in different positions. The topmost planet in the spiritual sky is Goloka Vrndavana, and below that planet is the spiritual sky itself. In that spiritual sky, Krsna Himself is four-handed and is situated as Narayana.Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 5.34
surya-mandala yena bahire nirvisesabhitare suryera ratha-adi savisesa
It is like the homogeneous effulgence around the sun. But inside the sun are the chariots, horses and other opulences of the sun-god.
PURPORT
Outside of Vaikuntha, the abode of Krsna, which is called paravyoma, is the glaring effulgence of Krsna's bodily rays. This is called the brahmajyoti. The transcendental region of that effulgence is called Siddhaloka or Brahmaloka. When impersonalists achieve liberation, they merge into that Brahmaloka effulgence. This transcendental region is undoubtedly spiritual, but it contains no manifestations of spiritual activities or variegatedness. It is compared to the glow of the sun. Within the sun's glow is the sphere of the sun, where one can experience all sorts of varieties
Bhagavad-gita 15.6na tad bhasayate suryo
na sasanko na pavakah
yad gatva na nivartante
tad dhama paramam mama
That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world.
PURPORT
The spiritual world, the abode of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna -- which is known as Krsnaloka, Goloka Vrndavana -- is described here. In the spiritual sky there is no need of sunshine, moonshine, fire or electricity, because all the planets are self-luminous. We have only one planet in this universe, the sun, which is self-luminous, but all the planets in the spiritual sky are self-luminous. The shining effulgence of all those planets (called Vaikunthas) constitutes the shining sky known as the brahmajyoti. Actually, the effulgence is emanating from the planet of Krsna, Goloka Vrndavana.
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Well, I probably mis-spoke.Why I usually say and meant to say was that no devotee on the Vaikuntha planets fall down.
There is a different between the devotees on the Vaikuntha planet and the living entity spirit sparks in the Vaikuntha outerspace.
I should have said that only the living entities in the brahmajyoti outerspace of Vaikuntha fall down because they don't have any form or any service to Krishna.
The brahmajyoti illuminates the Vaikuntha world, so you are surely mistaken if you think that there brahmajyoti is not in the Vaikuntha sky.
If the brahmajyoti is on the other side of the Viraja then it is like the halo of Vaikuntha.
Again, you are mis-representing my statements.
There is a difference between life on the Vaikuntha planets in service to NARAYANA and being a spirit spark in the brahmajyoti effulgence of the spiritual sky.
You are just defending your ego here.
Twising my words helps you defend your pride.
But, I don't have time to go tit-for-tat with you if you are going to give my words meanings they do not have.
I know what I am saying.
You are not hearing me.
You are just looking for a fight over trivial semantics as you juggle my words to mean something they don't.
Well, what can I say. You could have just admitted your mistake instead of making false claims. I didn't twist your words. I simply said that you were wrong. You may know what you are saying but all we have is what you actually write down. The brahmajyoti according to Srila Prabhupada exists everywhere. The Vaikuntha planets are surrounded by the Brahmajyoti because the brahmjyoti is coming from them. You also claim the brahmajyoti "illuminates" vaikuntha:
Purport Srimad Bhagavatam 2.4.14
The Vaikuntha planets and the Goloka Vrindavana planet are all self-illuminating, and the rays scattered by those sva-dhama of the Lord constitute the existence of the brahmajyoti.na tatra suryo bhati na candra-tarakam
nema vidyuto bhanti kuto 'yam agnih
tam eva bhantam anu bhati sarvam
tasya bhasa sarvam idam vibhati
In the sva-dhama of the Lord there is no need of sun, moon or stars for illumination. Nor is there need of electricity, so what to speak of ignited lamps? On the other hand, it is because those planets are self-illuminating that all effulgence has become possible, and whatever there is that is dazzling is due to the reflection of that sva-dhama.
No need to make claims that people are being egotistic simply because you make mistakes and then they are pointed out.
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Guruvani this is what you wrote
The brahmajyoti is also Vaikuntha.That is incorrect. By claiming such a thing you are contradicting your other claim that no one falls from vaikuntha. If the brahmajyoti is vaikuntha then jivas can fall from vaikuntha because jivas come from the brahmajyoti and fall into the material world. Also jivas can attain to sayuja-mukti (merging into brahman) but they cannot stay there and eventually fall back into the material world.
Similarly, even you go to the Brahman effulgence, brahmajyoti, aruhya krcchrena param padam [sB 10.2.32]. That is called param padam. Aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adhah. Again you fall down. (ACBS lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.25Vrndavana, November 12, 1976
However, the demons who are elevated to the spiritual world are situated in the impersonal Brahman effulgence, whereas the devotees are allowed to enter into the Vaikuntha planets. Those who are devotees of Lord Krishna are immediately elevated to the Goloka Vrindavana planet. (Purport Srimad Bhagavatam 4.24.45-46
So there is a difference between vaikuntha and the brahmajyoti. The brahmajyoti is not vaikuntha. Vaikuntha is where Krishna and his swamsa expansions like Narayana presides with nitya mukta devotees.
Since your claim is that no one can fall from vaikuntha then the brahmajyoti cannot be vaikuntha. Everything exists within the brahmajyoti, both the material and spiritual world. If your claim were true then we would be in vaikuntha wherever we are.
vaikuntha, brahmanda-gana-sakti-karya haya
svarupa-sakti sakti-karyera-krsna samasraya
Now, Lord Caitanya says, Vaikuntha. Just like this universe is a jagad-anda, is a big round ball, anda. Anda means egglike, just like egg is round. Therefore it is called brahmanda. It is a round ball. Every planet is round, and the universe is also round, and the Vaikunthas are also round, all round. Vaikuntha, brahmanda-gana-sakti-karya haya. So all these universes, the universe which we experience... There are innumerable universes that we cannot see. We can see only one universe, and in one universe there are innumerable planets. Similarly, there are innumerable universes, and in each universe there are innumerable planets. This information we get from Brahma-samhita.
yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti-
kotisv asesa-vasudhadi vibhuti-bhinnam
tad brahma niskalam anantam asesa-bhutam
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
[bs. 5.40]
That brahmajyoti, in that brahmajyoti there are all these universes and Vaikunthas. All, they are resting in that brahmajyoti. Just like in the sunshine so many planets are resting, similarly, in the brahmajyoti, the personal shining of Lord Krsna, in that shining which is called brahmajyoti, all the universes and Vaikuntha planets or universes, they are all resting. And the universes, the material universes are only one-fourths in quantity of the Vaikuntha universes. All the universes taken together of this material world, it is only one-fourths in comparison to the other Vaikuntha, or spiritual, universes. Vaikuntha, brahmanda-gana-sakti-karya haya. (ACBS lecture onCaitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.146-151
New York, December 3, 1966
You also claim that I concocted the claim that vaikuntha is where lila takes place.
CC Madhya 21.46: "Below the Vrndavana planet is the spiritual sky, which is known as Visnuloka. In Visnuloka there are innumerable Vaikuntha planets controlled by Narayana and innumerable other expansions of Krsna.CC Madhya 21.47: "The spiritual sky, which is full in all six opulences, is the intermediate residence of Lord Krsna. It is there that an unlimited number of forms of Krsna enjoy Their pastimes.
CC Madhya 21.48: "Innumerable Vaikuntha planets, which are just like different rooms of a treasure-house, are all there, filled with all opulences. Those unlimited planets house the Lord's eternal associates, who are also enriched with the six opulences.
SB 9.4.60: Thereafter, being disappointed even in taking shelter of Lord Siva, Durvasa Muni went to Vaikuntha-dhama, where the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Narayana, resides with His consort, the goddess of fortune.
(Purport Srimad Bhagavatam 2.7.34-35) But we should know well that all the above-mentioned living entities killed would attain salvation either by being merged in the brahmajyoti of the Lord or being allowed to enter into the abodes of the Lord called Vaikunthas.
(Purport Srimad Bhagavatam 2.4.14) In the spiritual sky His opulence is immeasurable. The Lord resides in all the spiritual planets, the innumerable Vaikuntha planets, by expanding His plenary portions along with His liberated devotee associates, but the impersonalists who want to merge in the existence of the Lord are allowed to merge as one of the spiritual sparks of the brahmajyoti. They have no qualifications for becoming associates of the Lord either in the Vaikuntha planets or in the supreme planet, Goloka Vrindavana, described in the Bhagavad-gita as mad-dhama and here in this verse as the sva-dhama of the Lord.
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Srila Prabhupada said that since the start of Kali Yuga that after 15 thousand years the age of Kali will become too "gloomy" for Krishna consciousness. That since now we are 5,000 years into Kali Yuga that there are 10,000 years left for the Krishna consciousness movement. He has stated that it is foretold that for 10,000 years more the Krishna consciousness movement will continue " provided we keep it uncontaminated".
Some quotes
Srimad Bhagavatam 8.5.23
When Krsna appeared, He gave His orders, and when Krsna Himself appeared as a devotee, as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He showed us the path by which to cross the ocean of Kali-yuga. That is the path of the Hare Krsna movement. When Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu appeared, He ushered in the era for the sankirtana movement. It is also said that for ten thousand years this era will continue. This means that simply by accepting the sankirtana movement and chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, the fallen souls of this Kali-yuga will be delivered. After the Battle of Kuruksetra, at which Bhagavad-gita was spoken, Kali-yuga continues for 432,000 years, of which only 5,000 years have passed. Thus there is still a balance of 427,000 years to come. Of these 427,000 years, the 10,000 years of the sankirtana movement inaugurated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu 500 years ago provide the opportunity for the fallen souls of Kali-yuga to take to the Krsna consciousness movement, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and thus be delivered from the clutches of material existence and return home, back to Godhead.
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Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, you said yesterday, or a few days ago, that this movement will go on unimpeded for ten thousand years, so...
Prabhupada: Yes, provided we keep it uncontaminated. You should take this opportunity.
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Srila Prabhupada: Rather, this movement, as I have now began with my disciples, European, American boys, they're...They are not very satisfied, the present politicians. They are not very satisfied. They don't want. Everywhere this, more or less the same mentality, but it is our duty on behalf of Krsna to push on this movement. So we are doing, and we are getting response. It is not without response. It will increase.That is also stated, that for ten thousand years Krsna consciousness movement will increase. Yes.
Syamasundara: Ten thousand years.
Prabhupada: Within ten thousand years, if they become Krsna conscious, then life is successful.After ten thousand years, the gloomy picture of Kali-yuga will come. Still there is time. Ten thousand years is not small period. So we have passed five thousand years. So still ten thousand. We have got to the fifteen thousand years. Kali-yuga's duration of life is four hundred thousand, four hundred and twenty-seven thousand.
So Srila Prabhupada was writing in his purport to the Srimad Bhagavatam about how it has been predicted that that the sankirtan movement of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu will go for 10,000 years from the birth of Sri Caitanya. I don't think Iskcon existed back then. So Iskcon may or may not last that long. The prediction wasn't about Iskcon, it's about Sri Caitanya's sankirtan movement. If you claim it is about Iskcon then you have to explain how you exclude all the previous acaryas and vaisnavas from that prediction. Was not Bhaktisiddhanta part of that prediction? Or Bhaktivinoda? Or Narottama Das Thakura or Baladeva Vidyabhusana? Also I hear the claim about saying Srila Prabhupada said his books would be law books for 10,000 years. I think it was Babhru a few years ago who pointed out that the quote is nowhere to be found, so until proven otherwise it carries no weight. Since Srila Prabhupada's books are not law books it seems to me that if someone wanted to claim that Srila Prabhupada actually said that, then they should offer direct proof due to Prabhupada's books being theology, not law.
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You keep trying to deny the fact that the jivas in the brahmajyoti are also in Vaikuntha.You need to understand that the brahmajyoti is the outerspace of Vaikuntha.
The brahmajyoti is also Vaikuntha.
Get this through your head and quit accusing Krishna of letting his pure devotees fall down.
Not quite. Vaikuntha is the realm of lila. The brahmajyoti is the undifferentiated plane of consciousness, there is no lila there. Jiva Goswami writes in his commentary on Brahma Samhita
Although Lord Govinda and the impersonal Brahman are the same Godhead, when He manifests His qualities He is Govinda, and when He does not manifest His qualities He is the impersonal Brahman. His first feature, that of Govinda, is situated within the circle of light that is Brahman.Prabhupada wrote in Srimad Bhagavatam 9.11.19
The brahmajyoti is the beginning of the spiritual world, and beyond the brahmajyoti are the Vaikuntha planets. In other words, the brahmajyoti stays outside the Vaikuntha planets, just as the sunshine stays outside the sun. To enter the sun planet, one must go through the sunshine. Similarly, when the Lord or His devotees enter the Vaikuntha planets, they go through the brahmajyoti. The jnanis, or monistic philosophers, because of their impersonal conception of the Lord, cannot enter the Vaikuntha planets, but they also cannot stay eternally in the brahmajyoti. Thus after some time they fall again to this material world. Aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah (Bhag. 10.2.32). The Vaikuntha planets are covered by the brahmajyoti, and therefore one cannot properly understand what those Vaikuntha planets are unless one is a pure devotee.It can be said that Prabhupada invented the idea that we were originally with Krishna or that we can fall from Vaikuntha. Clearly Prabhupada said these things many times. But if we study what he said in it's entirety and we are well educated in vedic knowledge then we can see that he was always speaking metaphorically. Saying we are originally with Krishna is a metaphor in a literal sense. In the Gita Prabhupada writes
In the Srimad-Bhagavatam this conception of the Absolute Truth is explained thus:vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam yaj jnanam advayam
brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate
"The Absolute Truth is realized in three phases of understanding by the knower of the Absolute Truth, and all of them are identical. Such phases of the Absolute Truth are expressed as Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan." (Bhag. 1.2.11) These three divine aspects can be explained by the example of the sun, which also has three different aspects, namely the sunshine, the sun's surface and the sun planet itself.
The Brahmajyoti or Brahman is Krishna. Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan are nondual, they are all Krishna.
Srila Prabhupada clearly said in Srimad Bhagavatam 4.30.5
As stated in Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya 22.31):krsna -- surya-sama; maya haya andhakara
yahan krsna, tahan nahi mayara adhikara
The Lord is just like the effulgent sun. Consequently, whenever the Supreme Personality of Godhead is present, there cannot be darkness or ignorance. Actually this dark universe is illuminated by the sun, but the sun and moon simply reflect the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Lord. In Bhagavad-gita (7.8) the Lord says, prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh: "I am the illuminating energy of both the sun and the moon." The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Saying that we could fall from Vaikuntha was something that Prabhupada was doing to inspire his neophyte disciples not to think they were above falling down. In fact he usually used the example of Jaya and Vijaya to explain that you can fall from Vaikuntha. But in reality they fell because the Lord caused them to fall so he could perform pastimes with them. Srila Prabhupada mentioned this:
Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (Bhag.7.1.35, purport).
Ordinarily, there is no possibility that the four sages could be so angry with the doorkeepers, nor could the Supreme Lord neglect His two doorkeepers, nor can one come back from Vaikuntha after once taking birth there. (Bhag. 3.16.29, purport)
More from Srila Prabhupada
Pure devotional service is so spiritually relishable that a devotee becomes automatically uninterested in material enjoyment. That is the sign of perfection in progressive devotional service. A pure devotee continuously remembers the lotus feet of Lord Sri Krishna and does not forget Him even for a moment, not even in exchange for all the opulence of the three worlds. (Bhag. 1.5.19, purport)
Therefore, the devotees never fall down, but the materialists, i.e., the fruitive workers and the speculative philosophers, do fall down, being forced by their respective modes of nature. (Bhag. 1.6.31, purport)
The expansions of His separated forms are called living entities, and these living entities are classified according to the energies of the Lord. They are divided into two classes--eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. Eternally liberated living entities never come into contact with material nature, and therefore they do not have any experience of material life. They are eternally engaged in Krishna consciousness, or devotional service to the Lord, and they are counted among the associates of Krishna. (TLC. Ch. 10)
The last word in knowledge is not self-realization or Brahman realization. There is more to realize--namely, that the jiva is the eternal servant of Lord Krsna. This realization is the awakening of supramental consciousness, and the activities a jiva performs in such consciousness are the beginning of his eternal life. (Renunciation Through Wisdom, pp147)
There are living entities, their number is greater. Nitya-mukta, ever liberated. They live in the spiritual world, Vaikuntha planets. Nitya-mukta. Nitya-mukta means eternally liberated. They never come down in this material world. And we are nitya-baddha--ever conditioned, eternally conditioned. (Lec. Bhag. 1973, Mayapura)
The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. (Krsna Book Ch. 28)
From Vedic scriptures it is understood that sometimes even Brahma and Indra fall down, but a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls. (Bhag.3.15.48, purport)
The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha, for it is the eternal abode.” (Bhag.3.16.26, purport)
This ordinary living being is of two kinds--nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other is eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world and they never fall into the material world. (Bhag. 5.11.12, purport)
The devotees of the Lord, however, never fall down. In Bhagavad-gita (9.31), the Supreme Personality of Godhead assures Arjuna, kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktah pranasyati: "O son of Kunti, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes." Again in Bhagavad-gita (2.40) Krishna says:
nehabhikrama-naso'sti pratyavayo na vidyate
svalpam apy asya dharmasya trayate mahato bhayat
"In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous types of fear." (NOI. 3)
A pure living entity in his original spiritual existence is fully conscious of his constitutional position as an eternal servitor of the Lord. All souls who are situated in such pure consciousness are liberated, and therefore they eternally live in bliss and knowledge in the various Vaikuntha planets in the spiritual sky. When the material creation is manifested, it is not meant for them. The eternally liberated souls are called nitya-muktas, and they have nothing to do with the material creation. (Bhag. 3.5.29)
But once one is engaged in the spiritual activities of bhaktiyoga, one does not fall down. (Bhag.8.3.11)
Sometimes it is asked how the living entity falls down from the spiritual world to the material world. Here is the answer. Unless one is elevated to the Vaikuntha planets, directly in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is prone to fall down, either from the impersonal Brahman realization or from an ecstatic trance of meditation. (Bhag.3.25.29, purport)
Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes in Jaiva Dharma
There are unlimited jivas who are eternal associates of the Lord. In Goloka Vrindavana they are manifested by Lord Baladeva for the service of Lord Krishna. In Vaikuntha they are manifested by Sri Sankarshana for the service of Lord Narayana, the Lord of Vaikuntha. They are eternally and blissfully engaged in the service of their worshipable Lord, always situated in their svarupa, always striving to make the Lord happy, always favorable to the service of the Lord, and always powerful with the energy of the cit-sakti. They have absolutely no relation or contact with the inert maya. Indeed they do not even know that there is an energy called maya. Because they live in the spiritual region, maya remains very far from them. They are always absorbed in the bliss of service to their worshipable Lord. They are transcendental to mundane misery and happiness and are always liberated. Their very life is love, and they have no conception of lamentation, fear, and death.The atomic conscious jivas, which come out like rays from Maha Vishnu's glance at maya, are also uncountable. Being in proximity to maya these jivas see the variegatedness of maya. They have all the characteristics of the jivas as described before, yet because of their atomic nature they sometimes glance marginally towards the spiritual creation and sometimes towards the material creation. In this marginal state the jiva is weak, because he has not yet attained spiritual power by the mercy of the worshipable Lord. Out of these unlimited jivas, the ones who desire to enjoy maya remain eternally bound by maya, because of being attached to sense enjoyment. Those who engage in devotional service to the Lord go to the spiritual world getting the strength of cit-sakti by the mercy of the Lord.
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Thanks for all your replies.vmsunder - that philosophy is very disturbing. It does not help me distinguish whether or not the evolutionists are correct or whether our scriptures are correct.
Kulapavana - here are some evidences that specifically causes me some unrest.
Fossil record - shows evolution in action. These can be put into a chronological record and backed by carbon dating.
Antibiotic and pesticide resistance - bacteria are evolving to become resistance to antibiotics and pesticides (superbugs).
These are just a couple of examples i managed to dig up. Darwin puts a case across which gives an alternative answer to where we came from. We can see his theory in action today. Someone once said that if you had to chose between two theories, choose the one which is the simplest - or something like that. The evolution theory is the simplest as we can see it happening and is in our fiossil records. That presented in our scriptures can not be proved and therefore is not simpler than darwin's theory. Which one is correct? This is what causes me to believe that maybe evolution by natural selection is the real answer.
Kelly.
The fossil record does not support evolution, it contradicts it, anyone who says differently is either ignorant or a liar. There is no disagreemnt on this by experts.
Gradualism“One hundred and twenty years of paleontological research later, it has become abundantly clear that the fossil record will not confirm this part of Darwin’s predictions. Nor is the problem a miserably poor record. The fossil record simply shows that this prediction is wrong.” – Eldredge & Tattersall,The Myths of Human Evolution, 1982, p45-46
“For more than a century biologists have portrayed the evolution of life as a gradual unfolding…Today the fossil record…is forcing us to revise this conventional view” – S.M. Stanley, The New Evolutionary Timetable: Fossils, Genes, and the Origin of Species, 1981, p 3
Simple to Complex
"The old Darwinian view of evolution as a ladder of more and more efficient forms leading up to the present is not borne out by the evidence.” - N.D.Newell, Why Scientists believe in Evolution, 1984, p 10, American Geological Institute pamphlet
“I believe that our failure to find any clear vector of fitfully accumulating progress…represents our greatest dilemma for a study of pattern in life’s history” – S.J. Gould, ‘The paradox of the first tier: an agenda for paleobiology’, Paleobiology, Vol 11, No 1, 1985, p 3
Clear-cut lineages
“...the gradual morphological transitions between presumed ancestors and descendants, anticipated by most biologists, are missing.” - David E.Schindel, Curator at Peabody Museum of Natural History
“Many fossils have been collected since 1859, tons of them, yet the impact they have had on our understanding of the relationships between living organisms is barely perceptible. … In fact, I do not think it unfair to say that fossils, or at least the transitional interpretation of fossils, have clouded rather than clarified our attempts to reconstruct phylogeny” – P.L.Forey, Neontological Analysis Versus Palaeontological Stories, 1982, p120-121
Identifiable Ancestors
“I agree…that ancestor-descendant relationships cannot be objectively recognized in the fossil record” – R.M. Schoch, ‘Evolution Debate’, Letterin Science, April 22, 1983, p360
“The gaps in the record are real, however. The absence of a record of any important branching is quite phenomenal” – R. Wesson, Beyond Natural Selection, 1991, p 45
Now, regarding creation predictions/expectations of the fossils record:
Sudden Appearance
“For all of the animal phyla to appear in one single, short burst of diversification is not an obviously predicable outcome of evolution” - PeterWard & Donald Brownlee, Rare Earth, Feb 2000, p. 150
“One of the most difficult problems in evolutionary paleontology has been the almost abrupt appearance of the major animal groups” - A. G. Fisher,Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia, 1998, fossil section
Fully Formed
“…the Cambrian strata of rocks, vintage about 600 million years, are the oldest in which we find most of the major invertebrate groups. And we find many of them already in an advanced state of evolution, the very first time they appear. It is as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history. Needless to say, this appearance of sudden planting has delighted creationists” – Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker, 1987, p 229
"Most orders, classes, and phyla appear abruptly, and commonly have already acquired all the characters that distinguish them." - Francisco J. Ayala and James W. Valentine, Evolving, The Theory and Processes of Organic Evolution,1979, p. 266.
Stasis
"The observation that species are amazingly conservative and static entities throughout long periods of time has all the qualities of the emperors' new clothes: everyone knew it but preferred to ignore it. Paleontologists, faced with a recalcitrant record obstinately refusing to yield Darwin's predicted pattern, simply looked the other way" - Eldredge and Tattersall, The Myths of Human Evolution, 1982, p 45-46
“The overwhelming prevalence of stasis became an embarrassing feature of the fossil record” - S.J. Gould, ‘Cordelia’s Dilemma’, Natural History, Feb1993, p 15
See also
http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/articles_debates/fossil_illusion.htm
As for bacteria or viruses developing resistance. First off they are not turning into new species. If you play guitar a lot then your fingertips will develop calluses because your body is developing resitance against the constant pressure to your fingertips. Secondly mostly the development of resistance in microrganisms to antibiotics is not done through mutations. It has other causes.
University of Bristol bacteriologist Alan H. Linton went looking for direct evidence of speciation (change of species) and concluded in 2001:
"None exists in the literature claiming that one species has been shown to evolve into another. Bacteria, the simplest form of independent life, are ideal for this kind of study, with generation times of twenty to thirty minutes, and populations achieved after eighteen hours. But throughout 150 years of the science of bacteriology, there is no evidence that one species of bacteria has changed into another ... Since there is no evidence for species changes between the simplest forms of unicellular life, it is not surprising that there is no evidence for evolution from prokaryotic [i.e., bacterial] to eukaryotic [i.e. plant and animal] cells, let alone throughout the whole array of higher multicellular organisms." (Alan Linton, "Scant Search for the Maker," Times Higher Education Supplement, April 20, 2001, Book section, 29.)
Also see
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Avoiding the titular topic, who said God is just a cowherd boy?I ended up at the Ashram last night and listened to Parvat Maharaja reading the chapter in Bhagavad Gita regarding the Universal Form of the Lord. The Universal Form contains infinite countenances and infinite limbs.
Of course, Vaishnavas think of Sri Govinda as the "primeval" or "original" form of the Lord, but how can we say that God is a cowherd boy when God is also a hurricane?
It's safe to say that the Cowherd Boy is the most *attractive* form of the Lord.
In His Govinda Bhasya; Sri Baladeva Vidyabhusana, the great scholar and acharya has written:
Isvara is supremely independent. He is the master of all potencies. He enters the universe and controls it. He awards both material enjoyment and ultimate liberation to the individual spirit souls residing in material bodies. Although He is one, He manifests in many forms. They who understand the transcendental science maintain that He is not different from His own transcendental form and qualities. Although He cannot be perceived by the material senses, He can be perceived by bhakti. He is changeless. He reveals His own spiritual, blissful form to His devotees.
"Of all the eternals, one is the supreme eternal. Of all conscious entities, one is the supreme conscious entity."
- - Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.13
As a vaidurya jewel manifests many different colors, so the Supreme Lord manifests many different forms. Each of these forms is the same perfect, complete, and pure Supreme Lord. In some forms the Lord displays all His qualities, and other forms the Lord does not display all His qualities. Therefore a wise devotee may meditate on all the Lords qualities, as described in the scriptures, as being present in the particular form of the Lord that is chosen for worship.
Both Lord Hari and His associates are the same persons in both previous and subsequent actions. Why is that? The sutra explains: "sarvabhedad" because of complete non-difference. This means that because there is no difference in Their personalities, the same Lord Hari and the same associates present in the previous actions are also present in the subsequent actions. That Lord Hari remains one even though He expands into many forms is confirmed in the Gopala-tapane Upanisad in these words:
eko pi san bahudha yo vabhati
"Although He is one, the Supreme Lord appears in many forms."
Also, in the Smriti-sastra it is said:
ekaneka-svarupaya
"Although He is one, the Supreme Lord appears in many forms."
This is also true of the Lord's liberated associates, who remain one even though they appear in many forms. The forms of the Supreme Lord are undivided. They are all full of eternity, knowledge, infinity, and bliss.
In this way it is said that although the Lord's forms present a very wonderful variety, still They are all one in essence. Although this truth was also described in sutra 3.2.14, the merciful teacher of Vedanta repeats the same teaching so this very difficult topic may be clearly understood.
The Supreme Lord is identical with each of His forms. They are all Him. That a certain form of the Lord is His original form, or an expansion of that form, or an expansion of the expansion is determined only by how much of His powers the Lord chooses to display when He manifests that form. Only in that way are some forms of the Lord considered higher and others less high. The great devotees of the Lord declare:
The Lord's forms are considered greater or lesser on the basis of how much of His transcendental power the Lord chooses to manifest when He reveals them.
Because she is not different from the Supreme Lord, Goddess Laksmi is also all pervading. In the Smriti-sastra it is said:
Goddess Laksmi is the mother of the worlds. She is the constant companion of Lord Visnu. As Lord Visnu is all pervading, so is she.
To think that Goddess Laksmi is different from Lord Visnu, but still all-pervading, is a false, a heretical idea. In this way the idea that Goddess Laksmi is an individual spirit soul, like the many millions of other individual spirit souls is refuted. As Lord Visnu has limitless transcendental qualities, so does Goddess Laksmi. In the scriptures it is said:
O Goddess, even if we had tongues like the demigod Brahma, we still could not describe all Your transcendental qualities. O Lotus-eyed Goddess Laksmi, please do not ever abandon your devotees.
When Lord Visnu assumes different forms, Goddess Laksmi also assumes different forms and follows Him. In the scriptures it is said:
When Lord Visnu assumes the form of a demigod, Goddess Laksmi assumes the form of a demigoddess. When He assumes the form of a human man, she assumes the form of a human woman. In this way she assumes a form to match the form of Lord Visnu.
Sri Radha is the origin of all the forms of Goddess Laksmi. Sri Krsna is the origin of all the forms of Lord Visnu. In the Purusa-bodhini Upanisad it is said:
In the land of Gokula in Mathura-mandala, Lord Krsna resides. At His two sides are Radha and Candravali.
There it is also said:
Laksmi, Durga, and the Lord's potencies are expansions of Sri Radha.
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This is not his objection however. He is saying that no one is dreaming .His position makes no sense to me but he insists it to be some esoteric Gaudiya Vaisnava teaching that is beyond what Prabhupada taught because Prabhupada on taught beginners. That is the whole point of this thread apparently.Yes but Shiva the word in question is "dreaming". The fact that dreams are illusions and illusions are dreams is exactly the point I am trying to make. Srila Prabhupada has used the word dreaming as in night dream and day dream therefore mydself and others also feel perfectly at ease in using the word dream which seems to irritate our friend Guruvani to no end.
For guruvani to disagree with the word dream as used is simply wrong headed. Thanks for trying to harmonize the situation but if is going to reject Srila Prabhupada's clear instructions on the matter I see no reason to think he would accept my words so I have given up on trying to convince him.
We have Prabhupada's version and his version and people will take the version that most attracts them.
I think the problem is semantics. The use of the word dream in sastra is metaphoric, it is used as an analogy trying to show that a conditioned soul and a person experiencing a dream while sleeping are similar because neither one is fully conscious of reality. They both take what is an illusory reality as being real. When you are in a dream (except lucid dreaming which has no relevance to the analogy) you don't know you are dreaming, you don't know that what you are experiencing is an illusion which seems like reality. Similarly conditioned souls are unaware to varying degrees of the actual spritual reality they exist within and as a part of in this world. So they are compared to people living in a dream world.
But Guruvani is correct when he states that the material is not a dream in the sense of not being a real place. The first post of his to comment on dreams was in response to this statement:
"The material world is like a day dream"
He then rejected that as false and said:
"No its not.
Pradhan is not a daydream.
Maya-shakti is not a daydream.
The Viraja is not a daydream.
The material world is a perverted reflection of the spiritual world.
Reflections in water are not daydreams.
They are real reflections.
The Moon reflected in the ocean is a real reflection.
It is not any daydream.
The only daydream going on is the fall-from-goloka fairytale."
Guruvani was right because the material world isn't like a daydream, the dream is not recognizing reality for what it really is, the material world is real, not recognizing the material world for what it is and how it works creates a dream like reality for conditioned souls. We don't dream that our bodies or rocks and cars are real, they are real, they are not dreams, the dream is not realizing that God manifests all these things and controls them. I know you understand this because you wrote:
"Everything you perceive in this field is a dream until you become Krsna conscious then you realize it is all Krsna in the form of one of his innumberable energies. If we have the concept of "material" then we are still dreaming."
So, neither of you are wrong, you just don't seem to understand what the other is saying.
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Guruvani and theist, you are both right, I don't think you are speaking in defined terms which you guys have agreed upon, therefore there is confusion.
Theist is correct in his statements concerning the dream nature of the material world and how matter is manfiest as maya in the vision of conditioned souls. The problem with understanding what he is saying is that he is using the word "dream" when it might be better understood by using the word "illusory". For example when you wrote:
"Everything you perceive in this field is a dream until you become Krsna conscious then you realize it is all Krsna in the form of one of is innumberable energies. If we have the concept of "material" then we are still dreaming"
That might make more sense to some devotee if it is stated like this:
"Everything you perceive in this field is illusory until you become Krsna conscious then you realize it is all Krsna in the form of one of is innumberable energies. If we have the concept of "material" then we are still in illusion"
Or when you wrote:
"Without the whimsical (dreaming) desires of the wayward living entities there would not be a material manifestation at all...not even one blade of grass. Krsna has no personal need for the material world. So it is based on the dreams of living entities trying to be the prime enjoyer. What is based on subtle dreams is also dream matter. For instance, aman may desire to build a huge skyscraper building. That desire is a dream which represents his need to be seen as a big man. So his desire to be a big man is a dream of the mind and the specific plan to accomplish this is by building a skyscraper is a dream of under the influence of intelligence. When he starts to build the building in gross matter he is just solidifying the same dream into a more external level where it can be perceived by the gross senses. Remember gross matter itself is a product of subtle matter and is therefore dream energy vibtating at a frequency that makes it perceiveable to a denser form of senses."
It might be better phrased like this:
"Without the illusory desires of the wayward living entities there would not be a material manifestation at all...not even one blade of grass. Krsna has no personal need for the material world. So it is based on the illusory desires of living entities trying to be the prime enjoyer. What is based on illusion is also illusion. For instance, aman may desire to build a huge skyscraper building. That desire is illusory which represents his need to be seen as a big man. So his desire to be a big man is an illusion of the mind and the specific plan to accomplish this is by building a skyscraper is illusory under the influence of intelligence. When he starts to build the building in gross matter he is just solidifying the same illusion into a more external level where it can be perceived by the gross senses. Remember gross matter itself is a product of subtle matter and is therefore subtle energy vibtating at a frequency that makes it perceiveable to a denser form of senses."
What guruvani said is also correct. You cannot just jump to the level of being free from all dreaming or illusion, that is the state of liberation, jivan mukta, that comes from following a process, although somepeople may gain that state faster then others due to their level of attainment in a previous life.
This is from Srila Prabhupada
Srimad Bhagavatam, 4.9.7
My Lord, You are the supreme one, but by Your different energies You appear differently in the spiritual and material worlds. You create the total energy of the material world by Your external potency, and after creation You enter within the material world as the Supersoul. You are the Supreme Person, and through the temporary modes of material nature You create varieties of manifestation, just as fire, entering into wood of different shapes, burns brilliantly in different varieties.
Purport
Dhruva Maharaja realized that the Supreme Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead, acts through His different energies, not that He becomes void or impersonal and thus becomes all-pervading. The Mayavadi philosopher thinks that the Absolute Truth, being spread throughout the cosmic manifestation, has no personal form. But here Dhruva Maharaja, upon realization of the Vedic conclusion, says, “You are spread all over the cosmic manifestation by Your energy.” This energy is basically spiritual, but because it acts in the material world temporarily, it is called maya, or illusory energy. In other words, for everyone but the devotees the Lord’s energy acts as external energy. Dhruva Maharaja could understand this fact very nicely, and he could understand also that the energy and the energetic are one and the same. The energy cannot be separated from the energetic.
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A ccording to Madbhagavat Geeta moksha means merger with Brahman and no return. Then who are the gurus who teach moksha?According to Patanjali Yoga sutra moksha is independence from time and space and attaining the pureest conscience.
Which moksha is peferable?
regards
Whenever the veda speak about the soul entering into Brahman what is being spoken about is union with God. This is the meaning of the word yoga, to yoke, to unite the soul with God. The word merge can be used only if it is understood in the sense of the merging of one soul with a higher reality, not in the sense of the soul or God losing individuality. If I merge my business with a large corporation I don't lose my individuality, rather I simply work with the leaders of the corporation.
Srimad-Bhagavatam 9.4.67:mat-sevaya pratitam te
salokyadi-catustayam
necchanti sevaya purnah
kuto 'nyat kala-viplutam
mat-sevaya--by being engaged fully in My transcendental loving service; pratitam--automatically achieved; te--such pure devotees are fully satisfied; salokya-adi-catustayam--the four different types of liberation (salokya, sarupya, samipya and sarsti, what to speak of sayujya); na--not; icchanti--desire; sevaya--simply by devotional service; purnah--fully complete; kutah--where is the question; anyat--other things; kala-viplutam--which are finished in the course of time.
My devotees, who are always satisfied to be engaged in My loving service, are not interested even in the four principles of liberation [salokya, sarupya, samipya and sarsti], although these are automatically achieved by their service. What then is to be said of such perishable happiness as elevation to the higher planetary systems?
Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.28.35-36:
muktasrayam yarhi nirvisayam viraktam nirvanam rcchati manah sahasa yatharcih atmanam atra puruso 'vyavadhanam ekam anviksate pratinivrtta-guna-pravahah
mukta-asrayam--situated in liberation; yarhi--at which time; nirvisayam-- detached from sense objects; viraktam--indifferent; nirvanam--extinction; rcchati--obtains; manah--the mind; sahasa--immediately; yatha--like; arcih--the flame; atmanam--the mind; atra--at this time; purusah--a person; avyavadhanam--without separation; ekam--one; anviksate--experiences; pratinivrtta--freed; guna-pravahah--from the flow of material qualities.
When the mind is thus completely freed from all material contamination and detached from material objectives, it is just like the flame of a lamp. At that time the mind is actually dovetailed with that of the Supreme Lord and is experienced as one with Him because it is freed from the interactive flow of the material qualities.
so 'py etaya caramaya manaso nivrttya
tasmin mahimny avasitah sukha-duhkha-bahye
hetutvam apy asati kartari duhkhayor yat
svatman vidhatta upalabdha-paratma-kasthah
sah--the yogi; api--moreover; etaya--by this; caramaya--ultimate; manasah--of the mind; nivrttya--by cessation of material reaction; tasmin--in his; mahimni--ultimate glory; avasitah--situated; sukha-duhkha-bahye--outside of happiness and distress; hetutvam--the cause; api--indeed; asati--a product of ignorance; kartari--in the false ego; duhkhayoh--of pleasure and pain; yat--which; sva-atman--to his own self; vidhatte--he attributes; upalabdha--realized; para-atma--of the Personality of Godhead; kasthah--the highest truth.
Thus situated in the highest transcendental stage, the mind ceases from all material reaction and becomes situated in its own glory, transcendental to all material conceptions of happiness and distress. At that time the yogi realizes the truth of his relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He discovers that pleasure and pain as well as their interactions, which he attributed to his own self, are actually due to the false ego, which is a product of ignorance.
As mentioned above there are different types of liberation:
Salokya Mukti (or Moksha): Living on the same planet as the Lord's
Sarsti Mukti: Gaining opulences similar to the Lord's
Samipya Mukti: Becoming a close associate of the Lord
Sarupya Mukti: Gaining bodily features similar to the Lord's
Sayujya Mukti: Merging into Brahman
The final liberation is described thusly in Srimad Bhagavatam 2.10.6:
nirodho 'syanusayanamatmanah saha saktibhih
muktir hitvanyatha rupam
sva-rupena vyavasthitih
nirodhah -- the winding up of the cosmic manifestation; asya -- of His; anusayanam -- the lying down of the purusha incarnation Maha-Vishnu in mystic slumber; atmanah -- of the living entities; saha -- along with; saktibhih -- with the energies; muktih -- liberation; hitva -- giving up; anyatha -- otherwise; rupam -- form; sva-rupena -- in constitutional form; vyavasthitih -- permanent situation.
The merging of the living entity, along with his conditional living tendency, with the mystic lying down of the Maha-Vishnu is called the winding up of the cosmic manifestation. Liberation is the permanent situation of the form of the living entity after he gives up the changeable gross and subtle material bodies.
The highest type of liberation is when the soul attains to his sva-rupena vyavasthitih, his permanent form, and lives with the Lord in that permanent form in Vaikuntha.
Katha Upanishad 1.3.9-11
3-9vijñᾱnasᾱrathir yastu manaḥ pragrahavᾱn naraḥ, so’dhvanaḥ param ᾱpnoti tad viṣṇoḥ paramam padam.
Yama: But he who has discerning intelligence as the driver and a well-controlled mind as the reins, reaches the end of his journey, that highest place of Vishnu.
3-10
indriyebhyaḥ parᾱ hy arthᾱ, arthebhyaś ca param manaḥ, manasaś ca parᾱ buddhir buddher ᾱtmᾱ mahᾱn paraḥ.
Yama: Beyond the senses are the rudiments of objects, beyond these rudiments is the mind, beyond the mind is the intellect, beyond the intellect is the great Self.
3-11
mahataḥ param avyaktam, avyaktᾱt puruṣaḥ paraḥ, puruṣᾱn na paraṁ kiñcit: sᾱ kᾱṣṭhᾱ, sᾱ parᾱ gatiḥ.
Yama: Beyond the great (Mahat) is the unmanifested (Avyakta). Beyond the Avyakta is the Purusha, beyond the Purusha there is nothing, that is the end, that is the highest goal.
"Mahat" in 3-11 refers to the Mahat Tattva, the material universe manifest before us. "Avyakta" refers to the unseen realm beyond the manifest world. Purusha refers to God, Vishnu. So the meaning is that the highest realm is the realm of Vishnu, and it is their where the journey of the soul ends.
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Hey if you guys like Kula Shaler (vaisnava rock band) you can listen to their entire new album for free at
http://www.virginradio.co.uk/music/artists/kula_shaker/index.html
The website misspelled "Narayana" for the track "Song of Love/Narayana"
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Mother: Rasangi Devi Dasi (ACBSP)Father: Dharmadhyaksa Dasa (ACBSP)
Step-Father: Raghavendu Dasa (ACBSP)
I haven't actually spoken with Rukmini in many years. I've seen her at Ratha Yatra and, as I said, I saw her daughter at the Reunion last year (I think it was last year, I skipped the Reunion this year and just went to Ratha Yatra).
Don't know them, probably saw them around L.A though.
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Thanks for clarifying. I *do* remember how wonderful Mangal Arati was in '77-'78 (when I was a new Gurukuli).I haven't made it for Mangal in L.A. recently, but I made it for the greeting of the deities this past May during the Prabhupada festival, and, while it wasn't the same (more grey in the crowd
, it was still very enthusiastic and enlivening. I imagine it gets pretty mild during the average week. Of course, those Deities are the same (or even *more* beautiful and munificent).I really can't speak about the L.A. temple during the period of 1986-1994 as I was living with my Dad in New York City during that time and spending my summers in Santa Cruz with my Mom. In 1994, I graduated from college and moved back in with my Dad who was living in Malibu at the time. From 1994-1997, I spent a bit of time at the L.A. Temple.
I'm not offended, I just know that I can barely remember anything of what I did when I was 6 years old. If you don't mind can you tell us what your parents initiated names are? Hey and how is Rukmini doing? When I met her I had no idea of what was going on, I had just flown in from Maui where I had been without any info about ISKCON for 4 years, and even when I got to L.A. I didn't talk with anybody about what was going on with temple leaders and whatnot, there was no internet back then either.
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Age of consent laws have risen since the 1980's, in many states 15 could have been legal back then. Either way they may not have had sex, it may have just been a flirtation and dating.
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It's funny how selective memory can be, isn't it? Here you are recalling all sorts of things, but you can't recall that it was in Westwood (in front of the bank, whose name escapes me at the moment) or in Hollywood that the big Hari Nama Sankirttanas took place.Also, while I was 6 in 1978, I believe I can clearly remember that there were no food vendors set up outside the temple during Sunday Feasts at that time. At major festivals, perhaps, but not each Sunday. Much much later on (like in the past 15 years), there have been various maha-rooms, and tables set up in front of the temple on Sundays.
I remember the Gurukuli's plays well (I can even remember my line from one of the plays, "More wine? But you've already had three jugs!!"). There's a picture of me dressed as a sannyasi standing in front of the temple.
Why do I mention such trivial things? To point out how imperfect and selective our memories can be.
You may have been there, but how much did you see and how much did you miss?
I know the harinam was in Westwood but for people unfamiliar with L.A mentioning Westwood would mean nothing. You are right that in 1978 there wasn't prasad being sold in front of the temple, I didn't really mean to suggest that in 1978 that was going on, I was referring to mangal arati, but I do remember that I was living as a brahmacari in the L.A. temple when there were big pandal tents next to the temple and prasad being sold in front by devotee vendors, the last time I ever lived as a brahmacari in L.A was 1980, so it had to be going on full force by then. So the claim that the big sunday feast outside stuff started since 1992 is totally wrong. I haven't been to the L.A temple since 1986 and I was staying nearby and visiting and even then they didn't have the big pandal tents and food vendors outside any longer. Maybe they started up again after that but it was definitely going on when I was living there as a brahmacari. I think a memory of a 20 year old is more accurate then a 6 year old.
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nice story "Siva".I enjoyed hearing it.
Haven't see you in a long time.
You must be completely bald by now?
Hah, I was pretty much back in the day, haven't changed on that front, keep my head shaved, But Ramesvara has started to bald. There's a video on youtube from the Ratha yatra
You can see Ramesvara as the devotee follows him, he's walking by himself and then with another devotee, at one point you can see him gesticulating with his hands as he talks, just like he used to
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I might as well thow my 2 paisa into this discussion since I had some personal relationships with Ramesvara and Jayatirtha.
I actually was initiated by Ramesvara in 1978 and used to serve him personally from time to time in his apartments serving food, not often though. We had a relationship which was not what could be considered a traditional guru disciple relationship. I had become a serious devotee around the time Srila Prabhupada left the planet. I spent a lot of time at the temple but didn't move in until 3-4 months after he had left when I finally became convinced that I needed to move into the temple and give all my time and energy to ISKCON. By that time Ramesvara had become the guru for the zone and for me it was an exciting time. This was probably the high point of ISKCON history because ISKCON had not yet experienced the mass leaving of Prabhupada disciples and I was in the place with the largest devotee population.
Mangal arati in Los Angeles in 1978 was an amazing experience. The entire temple was packed shoulder to shoulder and the kirtan leaders were usually people with good singing ability (Jayasacinandana, Agnideva etc). It was ecstatic to have kirtan with some three hundred of devotees singing and dancing enthusiastically in such a nice temple. A few years later Mangal arati would dwindle in size and potency as many people left. But in 1978 it was awesome in size and enthusiam. We used to go out on harinams I think on friday nights to some popular place with close to one hundred people, maybe more at times. We used school buses to transport everyone. We would chant in one place and it was quite a scene. ISKCON seemed invincible at that time. Especially from where I was. Sunday feasts were huge operations. There were pandal tents set up, all kinds of wonderfully opulent prasad being sold in front of the temple by maybe 20 different devotee vendors. They would set up and cook outside all kinds of wonderful things including hot jalebis and samosas and many other tasty treats. There was also the free feast but this was extra prasadam. There were often times Indian performers doing some dance and play recital or gurukulis or others. The sunday feast was a real festival with huge crowds every week.
Ramesvara was the man. I was told that he was my guru when I moved in the asrama. I had no chance to really size him up and see if he was qualified it was simply expected of me that I would accept him as my guru. Which I did. He actually never has had a conversation with me of any type. During the "christmans marathons" he would be waiting for us in the money counting room when we got back late at night from collecting in order to see how we had done. I was not a good collecter, I could have been if I had tried harder, but I was not enthusiastic for that service, I found it to be boring. I remember coming back without a lot of money and Ramesvara sitting there asking me how I did as I counted the money, when I told him he was not happy.
Occasionally I would do personal service in his apartments i.e serve him his prasadam. He was fed like a deity, except more opulently, although he was not a big eater, most of the food would be given to the server to distribute to others or eat on his own. I also was the food server at the famous GBC meetings in L.A. back in I think it was 1979 or maybe 1980 when all the gurus and GBC came to discuss what to do about Jayatirtha, Hansadutta, Tamal Krishna, and maybe Bhavananda, and also Sridhar Maharaja. All the gurus and sannyasis and GBC would eat and meet in Ramesvaras apartment. I would bring the prasadam into the kitchen and set it up for them and I got to see some them show their personalities away from the show they put on for the adoring masses. Ramesvara was always pretty much the same wherever he was, although he seemed to be very chummy with the other leaders. He was a very intense person with a sense of entitlement about him. I think Jahnava Nitai said Ramesvara was acarya for only 3-4 years, that's not quite accurate. he had total control from the time Srila Prabhupada left until 1986, that's 8 years.
Ramesvara was an elitist devotee. I think we have all seen those types of devotees in ISKCON who take themselves very seriously and who wouldn't or don't relate to devotees they consider beneath them if they didn't absolutely have to. They don't make friends with devotees unless the devotee is seen as being on the same level (Since this article is also about Caru, he was also one of these types of elites with an attitude problem. Once when I worked for him on the traveling India festival he threatened all of us that if we ever walked out on him he would ruin our devotee careers. A month later I walked out on him because of his abusive treatment). For example, I was friends with all the common devotees, the elitist devotees tended to look down on us in a kind of boss-worker relationship mode. We all knew it and in turn this created clear class distinctions which created a camaraderie amongst the hoi polloi who then related to the elites similar to how people in regular jobs relate to each other and the elites. What I mean is that often in regular jobs where many people work together you have the boss and his lieutenants with one mindset and you have everyone else in another. The common people usually are friends and socialize together while the boss and his lieutenants or sycophants do not socialize or treat the common workers as friends. There develops an antagonistic social system which pits the leaders against the common folk. The common folk usually speak ill of and laugh at their boss and his sycophants behind their backs because the leaders develop an antipathy to the common workers as being beneath them and treat them as such instead of as friends. This is exactly what went on where I was at. Ramesvara was part of the elitist clique who took their position of authority too seriously when it came to dealing with others. They didn't see any need to relate with common devotees in any other relationship other then boss-worker because they saw themselves as people with a DESTINY! They took/take themselves very seriously as divinely inspired and with some idea of themselves as special people with a special destiny and want others to take them very seriously as well while treating those not in leadership positions as beneath them refusing to treat them as friends.
Some people were saying that we shouldn't have expected such inexperienced devotees to make intelligent decisions at such a young age when it came to the zonal acarya situation. What actually happened during that time was not due to youthful inexperience, it was the result of the egotistic elitist mindset which can stay with people their whole lives. Ramesvara was a bright guy, but he was an elitist and he saw his position as being rightfully the boss of the "ordinary devotees". Even though some say he was against the zonal acarya concept, he did embrace it wholeheartedly. Some say he was involved with the Sulochana situation. From my experience of him and the way he ran things I could easily believe he was a willing part of it. But that's not enough to convict him. I'm just saying he kept around a bevy of thugs to rough people up if need be and so I can't discount that type of person from even dirtier deeds. Although he may be totally innocent. Of course being one of the main leaders of ISKCON during his reign he had to be aware of the child abuse going on. He liked to know everything about everyone, so there is no way he didn't know. Because he didn't put a stop to it then he is culpable along with the rest of the acaryas at that time for negligence or even direct culpability. He could also be quite cruel and also careless with disciples lives. I heard him once say that he was going to make sure a certain disciple of his was not going to find a wife if he could help it because the disciple wasn't living up to his expectations.
I visited L.A. from Maui in 1986, this was right around the time Ramesvara was leaving or had just left. I didn't know anything about it because I had been out of the ISKCON loop for 4 years. But I did happen to make friends with the gurukuli girl he had been seeing. I didn't know about the situation nor her part in it at that time, I just happened to eat and hang out at the Govindas juice bar for a month or so, and she was their regularly and we started talking and became friendly. She was a very bright and beautiful girl, a dancer, she was mature and modern, not actually going to gurukula, and I could see her as instigating a relationship with older men. I was 26-27 and she was flirtatious with me, so I could easily see her getting Ramesvara riled up enough to chance it all. She was very attractive and cool and smart. I can't blame him for going for it, I doubt if anyone could have resisted her charms if she set her sights on them.
A recent article showed Sri Narayana Swami embracing, Kirtananda. Sri Paramadwaita Swami also embraced him. Accusations and bad vibes flowed. Why, because these great devotees didnt slap him? No, great devotees probably dont even see the bad faults at all, only see the attempt of Krsna consciousness, even though imperfectly applied. As Audarya lila states, an uttama adhikari has no discrimination at all. Sometimes, an uttama adhikari has to accept a position of madhyama adhikari in order to preach and especially, to accept disciples. An Uttama Adhikari cannot do this because there is no difference between Mother Theresa and Twisted Sister to the uttama. All that is seen is a pure spirit soul. Madhyama adhikari makes distinction between one engaged in devotional service to Krsna and one who has forgotten everything due to contact with this portion of the mahat tattwa.
Mahak I don't think you have a clear understanding of an uttama adhikari's vision. You wrote "An Uttama Adhikari cannot do this because there is no difference between Mother Theresa and Twisted Sister to the uttama. All that is seen is a pure spirit soul." That is not accurate. An uttama adhikari is not an idiot, he sees the difference between people. An uttama *also* sees that everyone is being directed by paramatma to act the way they do. An uttama sees everyone serving Krishna at all times because he knows and *sees* everyone following the dictates of paramatma to fulfil their destiny in their lives. So when it is said that an uttama comes down to the level of a madhyama in order to preach what that means is that the uttama ordinarily sees *everyone* serving Krishna, but in order to preach he has to neglect that reality in order to tell people that they should take up Krishna bhakti. It's not that they have some hindrance in their ability to discern between a devotee and others. The whole thing is a philosophical point, a teaching meant to elevate people to be able to see how an uttama adhikari sees reality so that they try and see like that. So when it comes to prominent gurus embracing Kirtanananda, it's not because they are uttama adhikaris and are just seeing everyone as spirit souls, in reality what they are doing is hoping to get his followers to come to their camps. It's all about exploiting the situation.
People also have written about Jayatirtha. I saw him a few times when I was in ISKCON, but actually got to know him a little bit after he left ISKCON. My friends and myself visited Jayatirtha and his crew a few times when he first moved to Marin County, and in turn they came and visited us. This was at the beginning of his trip and before he evidently turned into believing he was some kind of avatar. His scene was new agey and what would be considered very hip and spiritual by many, and his 2 main men were also new agey hip musicians. They were involved with dealing with prominent leaders of the new age community whom were apparently attracted by Jayatirtha and his scene, which was very much like their own except with a new agey type of Krishna consciousness thrown in as well (sex ands drugs permitted). Jayatirtha's 2 main men both moved to Maui after Jayatirtha died and are prominent and influtential members of the large wealthy new age community there. When I knew Jayatirtha he seemed very likable and hip and cool and I could see why he and his crew were attracting the new age crowd. But I only saw him at the beginning of his trip. I had been visiting california and got to know him and his crew a little bit, they were all very nice and welcoming. I remember when I was visiting them in Marin that they were planning on going to L.A. for Janmastami after they had just held a big Janmastami celebration at an upscale community center in Marin. It was a fairly good turnout, mostly new age people from Marin, there was even a heated pool there for swimming, it was a very entertaining celebration. They had a sufi dancer from Maui lead the celebration in a sufi dance where there would be circles of people within circles of people with each circle dancing in different directions, good music and chanting, a good feast, a slide show from someone's trip to India, all in all a very good time for all. Then we went down to L.A for Janmastami. So I went with them and at that time there were 2 Janmastami celebrations in L.A. One was the one in the ISKCON temple and the other was at some rented hall where maybe a hundred or more of Prabhupada's disciples were having a Janmastami festival. We went to the non ISKCON one. When We walked in everybody stopped and stared at us and Jayatirtha. Here was the ex zonal acarya doing his new age thing and everyone was interested to see what he was up to. We spent the night at Bharadwaja's house and then went on to San Diego where the "fringy" devotees were happy to see the Jayatirtha crew again and had kirtans and prasadama etc. They left and I stayed, then a few months later I went back to Maui with some friends who first had to go upstate, so we ended up visiting Jayatirtha for a couple days in their new secluded large home in the mountains (used to be the italian consulate) before going on to Maui. They were as nice as ever and had started a muffin business, they were baking and selling big muffins with a side of almond butter and honey. They were quite tasty. I never saw Jayatirtha again after this, that was 1983 I think. I heard from his ex-wife years later, who was his wife when I visited, that gradually Jayatirtha went kinda off the deep end and did some things which were very uncool and he thought himself to be some kind of avatar of Jesus or Krishna. I think she is writing a book. When I knew him he hadn't totally gone off the deep end yet.
Why did Srila Prabhupada promote the fairytale?
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Guruvani you wrote
That is not quite what I am saying. All jivas are manifest from tatastha sakti or rather are tatastha sakti. Nowhere are we told that a jiva is anything but tatastha sakti at any time, nitya baddha or nitya mukta. We do have many sources where we are told that all jivas are tatastha sakti at all times. As Bhaktivinoda points out:
The cit sakti (swarupa sakti, antaranga sakti) or the internal energy produces "complete objects" from the "complete potency". What that means is that the cit sakti produces things which are of the nature of cit sakti. What is that nature?
From Bhaktivinoda's The Bhagavat:
The cit sakti is non different from Krishna. Whatever is manifest by the cit sakti is non different from Krishna.
From the Teachings of Lord Caitanya
Srila Jiva Gosvami describes the Supreme Person in these words of Bhagavat Sandarbha:
The cit sakti manifests the swarupa or form of Krishna and his tad-rupa-vaibhava, his incarnations or personal expansions, which includes the spiritual world, they are non different from Krishna. What does tad-rupa-vaibhava mean?
"Tad" in this case means various, "rupa" means form, and this is how "vaibhava" is described:
So tad-rupa-vaibhava means various forms of Krishna. In other words what Jiva Goswami is saying is that Krishna manifests in 4 ways. His form and the vaibhava expansions of his form which are all Krishna in different forms, the jivas, and the material energy.
The cit sakti manifests both the form of Krishna and his tad-rupa-vaibhava, which includes all his personal expansions and the entire spritual world, all of which is a vaibhava or non different expansion of Krishna. Krishna is identical to his cit sakti and he is identical to the sprititual world because it is a vaibhava expansion of Krishna.
Purport Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 4.62
Caitanya-Caritamrta Madhya lila 8.154-155:
Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 4.71, purport
And from Baladeva Vidyabhusana's Govinda Bhasya
Here Baladeva Vidybhusana explains how Krishna is identical to the spritual world
So the point I am trying to make is that when Bhaktivinoda says:
"All complete objects have appeared from the complete [cit] potency"
What he is saying is that the cit sakti manifests Krishna's form and his tad-rupa-vaibhava, which includes his personal expansions and the spiritual world, which is non different from him. The jivas are not manifested from cit sakti, whether they are nitya mukta or nitya baddha, all jivas are a manifestation of tatastha or jiva sakti.
Here Bhaktivinoda is saying that the nitya mukta jivas are manifested from Baladeva who presides over jiva sakti.
And here Bhaktivinoda says that all jivas are a manifestation of jiva sakti
When he mentions nitya siddha he says the jiva is not nitya siddha, he references the kaya-vyuha manifestations of Sri Radha as examples of nitya siddha. What is kaya-vyuha? From C.C. Adi 1.81
They are personal expansions of God, swamsa expansions. They are not jivas. So what he is saying is that all jivas are tatastha or jiva sakti, jiva sakti is presided over by Balarama. Baladeva manifests the jiva sakti in vraja as the nitya mukta jivas.
In another place in Bhaktivinoda's Jaiva Dharma he says
He includes the nitya mukta jivas in the jiva or tatastha sakti.
In his Paramatma Sandarbha Jiva Goswami goes into alot of detail about the jiva always being tatastha sakti.
Whether you are in Goloka or the material world you are always tatastha sakti. So tatastha sakti is not a locative description, it is an ontological description. We are not and cannot become cit sakti because cit sakt is identical to Krishna, we are not maya sakti either, we are tatastha sakti. We can come under the dominion of the cit sakti or the maya sakti and then we partake of their nature, but we do not become them. When we are under the dominion of the maya sakti then we are affected by the qualities of the maya sakti and affected negatively by illusion, ignorance, and suffering in various ways. When we are under the dominion of the cit sakti then we are affected by the qualities of the cit sakti which is association with Krishna and his devotees, knowledge and bliss.