Jahnava Nitai Das

Yesterday I came across the following article, which I liked a lot. Years ago I used to live near to this ashram and some of our devotees would visit it. This area is certainly one of the more mystical areas in India, and should be visited if there is ever a chance. By the way, since this article was published the ashram was sold to another devotee. I am not sure what is happening with it now, or who purchased it. History of Sri Varaha Vana Ashram India (VNN) - To Gauridas Pandit, from Narasimha das I moved to South India with my family in 1991. Since then, I’ve spent a few hundred thousand dollars there. I’ve been struggling to start some preaching, particularly a large project in the Sahya Mountains near the most sacred Varaha Tirtha. The project is also near Sri Udupi Kshetra, Sri Kshetra Dharmastala, and Mangalore. I was also working on another smaller project near Sri Subrahmanya Tirtha, the kshetra of Sri Narasimha Deva and His great devotee Sri Kumara Guru (Kartikeya’s boyhood aspect). Both places are in lovely secluded valleys surrounded by lush tropical forests of incredible biodiversity. At Varaha Vana, the larger place, we built at least 8,000 sq. ft. of accommodations, and we’ve done a number of preaching programs and hosted hundreds of devotees. We’ve received thousands of visitors and laid the foundations for the main temple on a hilltop. Public response in the area has been excellent. Several devotees have assisted at various times. Radhanatha Swami and some of his devotees have also assisted. They conducted a couple of big pandal programs there, did local hari-namas, and did programs in the Udupi temple. Once when devotees from Bombay visitied, they brought 25 gurukula boys and spent 6 weeks. They all loved it. We all felt there could be no better environment for a gurukula or ashram anywhere in the world. The locality may be the best place for Vaishnava culture in the world today, W. Bengal included. Dakshina Kannada, particularly our area, is the stronghold of the Gaura-sarasvata Vaishnavas and Madhva Vaishnava Brahmins. In the mountains nearby, at Sringeri, near the place of the ancient sage Rishi-shringha, is perhaps the best of the mathas established by Sripad Shankar Acharya. They run the best gurukula I’ve ever seen--at least externally. In the months and years ahead, Dakshina Kannada will likely remain the most safe and stable region in India. In my opinion the Pejwar Matha, the Pudige Matha, and other Madhva Mathas, such as the one in Subrahmanya, are the only genuine allies ISKCON has in India. The preaching potential in the area is untapped. A good preacher could do wonders in the region in no time. The air, water, and fruits there would improve ones health. One of the bhaktas who joined at Varaha Vana was a Madhva sannyasis initiated by Vishvesvatirtha Swamiji of the Pejwar Matha. He wanted some sort ofdiksha from me, but I declined. He is a Sanskrit scholar and lives by begging and conducting simple preaching programs. He’s a scholar of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita, and other Puranas and Vaishnava shastras and has been trained by the Pejwar Mutt in puja. Yet he still insisted I train him in Srila Prabhupada’s way of preaching and conducting programs and the ISKCON standard of puja. Several other interesting devotees joined, almost joined, or were trying to participate or join when I left. I wish I had had more time to spend cultivating people, but it was all I could do to manage the construction, the landscaping, and the agriculture, which includes harvesting and maintaining produce of coconuts, betel nuts, bananas, cocoa, rice, dahl, cashew, and vegetables. I tried doing programs alone, and I repeatedly hosted and invited many ISKCON sannyasis, but although many showed great interest, so far no one has come to organize or participate in preaching programs on a regular basis. Almost any sort of consistent preaching approach would yield wonderful results in Dakshina Kannada. Dakshina Kannada has been blessed by the preaching mission of Srila Madhvacharya and many other great devotees. It has also been specifically blessed by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Krishnadas Kaviraja Gosvami mentions that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu exhibited the full ecstasy of his preaching mission only in South India. Thus the significance of South India is unimaginable. More than anything else, this is what has drawn me there so strongly. Unfortunately much of South India has become eroded by industrial materialism and imported Western lust and commercialism. Until very recently Dakshina Kannada was spared of this, so I feel that at least in DK there’s a chance of wide scale enlightenment through Krishna consciousness. Krishna consciousness is still very much part of the local culture and environment. The people in general and the Vaishnavas and brahmins in particular are mostly still pious and gentle and devoted to Narayana, Vishnu, and especially Krishna. There is harmony in the region between the various factions of brahmins and Vaishnavas. No group we have encountered has discouraged us in any way but rather has offered all types of assistance and even proposals for affiliation. Over and above the favorable physical character of the land and buildings and orchards at Sri Varaha Vana, I would like to say a few words about the spiritual character of the land and location. Apparently Varaha Vana used to be an ashram or residence of sages long ago. We’ve discovered evidence that makes us believe Lord Chaitanya may have camped nearby. We’ve made some effort to investigate the lineage of Srila Rupa and Srila Sanatana Goswamis, whose family hails from this area very nearby. The locals have their legends about the place and the area, and experts of vastu-shastra and other Vedic writings have praised the spiritual ambience of Varaha Vana. For instance, we’re on a high western bank of the Swarna River (tears of Lord Varaha) as she turns to flow north (briefly) after descending from the high slopes in the east. Another sacred stream bisects our property and flows east to join the Swarna at a waterfall on the northeast side of the ashram. The valley of Varaha Vana opens wide in the northeast, with panoramic views of the most sacred Varaha Tirtha in the northeast and the renowned Shringha-Giri (Sringeri) due north. (Several sadhus have commented with astonishment about the vastu configurations of the location.) Our valley is closed by hills in the south and southwest. These are natural auspicious characteristics that we have tried to appreciate and amplify by sticking to vastu considerations while building and landscaping. By luck, mostly, we ended up doing almost everything right, in spite of our somewhat hurried development phase. Apart from what I’ve heard about our location from others, I’ve had my own experiences. For instances, I saw it raining one cloudless evening at dusk in our betel nut orchard in an area of approximately 40 feet in diameter. This went on for several minutes while I watched. When it got dark I had to leave. It was still raining. There was no trace of clouds anywhere in the sky. Myself and others have seen strange lights in that part of the orchard on other occasions, and we’ve heard Krishna bhajanas being sung in the dark forest late at night. A few visiting devotees saw a 35-foot King Cobra swallow a 25-foot python at Subrahmanya Tirtha. The event took 3 hours and was witnessed by 100 people, who applauded by stomping the ground with their feet. The serpent raised its hood and nodded before disappearing into the forest. After completing our noon baths and gayatris one day, Jagat Guru Swami and I found a huge Hari Hara shalagrama in the river bordering the ashram. (The local priests were astonished when we showed it to them. There’s a similar but smaller one installed in the Subrahmanya Temple.) I’ve both seen and heard about wonderful creatures that still live in The Sahyadri forests. I know a man who saw a dead 230-foot 5-headed Naga that was killed 15 years ago in the high mountains by the Indian military. It filled up an entire lorry. (Local devotees said a small report had come in the local paper saying a big snake had been killed and sent to Switzerland for study.) Near Varaha Vana on the mountainside is a cave that locals say goes all the way to Nagaloka. A few brave men have entered there but none have found the end. They say some explorers never returned from that cave. Of course, such tales don’t prove the spiritual potency of the area or our ashram. The best proof are the numerous shastric references to the area. Regarding are specific location, the best proof are the many comments from devotees who have had the good fortune to live at or visit Sri Varaha Vana. We’ve hosted large entourages on many occasions. Tripurari Swami said it was the most beautiful place he’d ever seen. Jagat Guru Swami liked it so much he moved his whole ashram (devotees, Deities, furnishings, ect.) there for nearly a year. Radhanath Swami, before getting drafted back into ISKCON, was considering making Varaha Vana one of his bases and a gurukula project. Bhaktivikas Swami, Bhaktiraghava Swami, and several other sannyasis have visited, done programs, and made plans to preach there. I feel incapable of developing the ashrams further on my own. I now reside with my wife and daughter at Prabhupada Village in North Carolina, and I’ve decided to sell one or both our projects in India. I’d be willing to sell for less than half of what I’ve invested so far to an inspired preacher who could make the projects a great success. Real estate and construction prices have gone up steeply in the past 4 years. If comparable properties could be found in the area, which is unlikely, it would cost at least 60 percent more to create the same facilities now. I and two other devotees spent one year and covered 30,000 kilometers in a focused, well-planned search for land in The Sahyadri. We saw dozens of properties and eliminated (by hearing about them) at least a hundred others. We ended up buying three properties. Among these three, Varaha Vana is, in almost every way, the best place. Regarding the development we’ve done thus far and the advantages of the area and local community, Varaha Vana is superior in every way. We are in the heart of the best area of Vaishnava culture in South India--60 km. from Mangalore and Udupi, 40 km. from Dharmastala, 50 km. from Sringeri, 3 km. from Naravi, where there’s a famous ancient temple of Surya Narayana (one of only three in all of India), 108 km. from Sri Kshetra Kollur (due north), and 108 km. from Sri Subrahmanya Tirtha (due south). There are innumerable Vaishnava temples and shrines in the area, many of which were personally established by Sripad Madhvacharya or ancient sages like Agastya and Rishishringa. In the forests 5 km. from the Subrahmanya Temple, I have built a small ashram on 9 acres. The land is surrounded by National Forest. There are no neighbors nearby. The land is fully developed agriculturally with orchards and paddy fields. It rarely needs irrigation, but if it does, it has gravity-flow canals from mountain streams. The ashram sits on the banks of the Marigundi River, and we drink water straight from the river without filtration. The water is not only safe to drink but quite medicinal. Sambha, Krishna’s son, and Aditi are among some of the famous people cured of terrible diseases at Subrahmanya. Often at night we hear wild elephants trumpeting in the forest. The sound echos through the valleys and invokes auspicious emotions. The elephants also visit the ashram sometimes. The forests of Subrahmanya hosts unbelievable biodiversity. Beautiful tropical birds, butterflies, and fragrant flowers everywhere. Srila Madvacharya would often walk to Subrahmanya Tirtha from Udupi. He established a separate matha here for his brother, Sri Vishnutirtha, who still lives in the forests doing constant hari-nama bhajana. Apart from the Sri Subrahmanya Narasimha Swamy Matha, Madhvacharya also established the temple of Narasimha Deva, where some of the shalagramas given to him by Srila Vyasadeva are still worshipped daily at 5 a.m. by Vidyabhushanatirtha Swami. Among these shalagramas is a big Narasimha shalagrama. He’s the main one and sits in the middle of the altar on a separate throne. A Madhva sannyasi joined us at Varaha Vana to preach Krishna consciousness according to Srila Prabhupada’s mission. Many Gaura-sarasvata devotees in the area are chanting japa now and taking an active interest in Srila Prabhupada’s books and mission. I feel it is important for devotees to cultivate relations with the Madhva Mathas, particularly the Pejwar Matha, Puthige Matha, and others such as the Subrahmanya Matha. These mathas have always been friendly and helpful. They have supported us, defended us, and offered practical assistance many times over the years. They are a powerful institution in South India, and they should never be slighted or ignored. They are proud of the fact that we are part of the Madhva-sampradaya. I believe it was Sugendra Tirtha Swami of the Pudige Matha who told devotees, Remember, after Mayapur, Udupi is your home. I could write a book about the auspicious characteristics of Dakshina Kannada, The Sahyadri, and our ashrams at Varaha Vana and Subrahmanya. One determined sannyasi and a few brahmacaris traveling on foot between the two ashrams could start a spiritual revival in the area unlike anything seen since the days Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself preached there. It would cost nothing to maintain and expand this program unlimitedly. Hundreds of thousands of pious Vaishnavas in DK and The Sahyadri have become disgusted with the modern social scene and are eager and ready to join the Krishna consciousness movement. I’d be happy to answer any questions or elaborate on any of the topics in this letter. I know Srila Prabhupada would be pleased with the ashrams and the area.

Some variuos points: This is in reference to the soul becoming conscious of his new body. The soul is present in the developing body from the beginning, but he is in an unconscious state and is not aware of his situation. All sperm cells contain a soul, but whether or not the soon to be born human is the dominant soul in the sperm, or an accompanying soul (as is the case when he comes through the grain) will require some clarification. Madhva is clear in his commentaries that the soul entering the grain is only an accompanying soul, but I have not seen him comment the same in regards to the sperm cell. I will refer some of his writings and see if he does mention this more clearly. This is only one method of souls being born in human form after having fallen from the svarga-loka (due to having exhausted their punya karmas). Such souls are generally not born in areas where there is no vegetation or grains (which are considered as inauspicious places). There are many other way by which a soul is born as a human. For example, while rising from animal to human, it is described in the shastras that the cow, lion and monkey also take birth as humans (according to sattva, rajas, and tamas predominence). Such souls do not fall as rain, enter grains, etc. Nature makes another arrangement for them to enter suitable wombs. Bodies are nothing but an accomodation for the soul. There are countless living entities waiting for suitable accomodations to develop, so that they may take birth. As soon as a suitable accomodation is made (either by a natural process, or by a human assisted process) a soul will enter that body by the guidance of the material nature. The Taittiriya Upanishad is speaking specifically of the pious souls who had attained the heavenly abodes (svarga-loka), and who had then returned to earth, having exhausted their pious merit. There are unlimited other possibilities that one must consider.

Seeing that this is the 5,000th post, it reminded me of a conversation between Lord Krishna and mother Ganga found in the Brahma-vaivarta Purana. There Lord Krishna describes what will happen in the Kali yuga after 5,000 years of degradation pass. It is quite relevant, since we have just recently passed through 5,000 years of Kali yuga. If we look at Lord Krishna's predictions about the chanting of his mantra spreading throughout the world, the reading of Srimad Bhagavatam spreading throughout the world, and the eating of Krishna prasadam spreading throughout the world, it becomes clear that this prediction has already begun to manifest. This conversation occurs in the Brahma-vaivarta Puran, 4th canto, chapter 129, texts 49 - 60. Copy it and email it to some of your friends. Text 49 bhagarathy uvaca he natha ramanashreshtha yasi golokamuttamam asmakam ka gatishcatra bhavishyati kalau yuge Ganges said: O protector, Supreme enjoyer, on your departure for the perfect abode, Goloka, thereafter what will be my situation in the age of kali? Text 50 sri-bhagavan uvaca kaleh pancasahasrani varshani tishtha bhutale papani papino yani tubhyam dasyanti snanatah The blessed Lord said: On the earth 5,000 years of kali will be sinful and sinners will deposit their sins in you by bathing. Text 51 man-mantropasakasparshad bhasmibhutani tatkshanat bhavishyanti darsanacca snanadeva hi jahnavi Thereafter by the sight and touch of those who worship me by my mantra, all those sins will be burnt. Text 52 harernamani yatraiva puranani bhavanti hi tatra gatva savadhanam abhih sarddham ca shroshyasi There will be chanting of the name of Hari and reading of the [bhagavata] Purana. Reaching such a place, attentively hear. Text 53 purana shravanaccaiva harernamanukirtanat bhasmibhutani papani brahma-hatyadikani ca Sinful reactions including the killing of a brahmana can be nullified by hearing the Purana and chanting of the names of Hari in the manner of devotees. Text 54 bhasmibhutani tanyeva vaishnavalinganena ca trinani shushkakashthani dahanti pavako yatha Just as dry grass is burnt by fire, by the embrace of My devotees all sins are burnt. Text 55 tathapi vaishnava loke papani papinamapi prithivyam yani tirthani punyanyapi ca jahnavi O Ganges, the whole planet will become a pilgrimage sight by the presence of My devotees, even though it had been sinful. Text 56 madbhaktanam sharireshu santi puteshu samtatam madbhaktapadarajasa sadyah puta vasundhara In the body of my devotees remains eternally [the purifier]. Mother earth becomes pure by the dust of the feet of my devotees. Text 57 sadyah putani tirthani sadyah putam jagattatha manmantropasaka vipra ye maducchishtabhojinah It will be the same in the case of pilgrimage sights and the whole world. Those intelligent worshipers of my mantra who partake My remnants will purify everything. Text 58 mameva nityam dhyayante te mat pranadhikah priyah tadupasparshamatrena puto vayushca pavakah They are more dear to Me than My life, who everyday meditate only on Me. The air and fire become pure simply even by their indirect touch. Text 59 kaler dasha-sahasrani madbhaktah santi bhu-tale ekavarna bhavishyanti madbhakteshu gateshu ca For 10,000 years of kali such devotees of mine will fill the whole planet. After the departure of My devotees there will only be one varna [outcaste]. Text 60 madbhaktashunya prithivi kaligrasta bhavishyati etasminnantare tatra krishnadehadvinirgatah Devoid of My devotees, the earth will be shackled by kali. Saying this Krishna departed. [This message has been edited by jndas (edited 07-15-2001).]

For the body to form and develop there must be a union of egg and sperm cells, but not necessarily for the soul to exist. The soul is eternal, so obviously it exists prior to the union of egg and sperm cells. Thus what is the necessity to limit its presence to that of a developing human body. The Upanishads describe how the soul descends from the heavenly realm through the rain, and enters into the grains (as an accompanying soul to the plant). When the human eats that particular grain (under the arrangement of karma), the soul enters into the male body and resides in the sperm until the time of conception.

For the body to form and develop there must be a union of egg and sperm cells, but not necessarily for the soul to exist. The soul is eternal, so obviously it exists prior to the union of egg and sperm cells. Thus what is the necessity to limit its presence to that of a developing human body. The Upanishads describe how the soul descends from the heavenly realm through the rain, and enters into the grains (as an accompanying soul to the plant). When the human eats that particular grain (under the arrangement of karma), the soul enters into the male body and resides in the sperm until the time of conception.

tiirtheShu pratidriiShTeShu raajaa medhyaan pashuun vane yaavadarthamala.m lubdho hanyaad iti niyamyate "If a king is too attracted to eating flesh, he may, according to the directions of the revealed scriptures on sacrificial performances, go to the forest and kill some animals that are recommended for killing. One is not allowed to kill animals unnecessarily or without restrictions. The Vedas regulate animal-killing to stop the extravagance of foolish men influenced by the modes of passion and ignorance." - Bhagavata Purana 4.26.6

I think a more accurate quote is that they should have lead poured in their ears for hearing shruti, and their tongues cut out fro chanting shruti. Anyway, here is a translation of Shankara's Brahma Sutra bhasya to 1.3.38 (translation by Ramakrishna Matha): 'By the smriti he is debarred from hearing, studying and acquiring the meaning of the vedas. The smriti mentions that a sudra has no right to hear the vedas, no right to study the vedas, and no right to acquire the meaning of the vedas and perform the rites. As for probhition of hearing we have the text 'Then should he happen to hear the vedas, the expiation consists in his ears being filled with lead and lac [Gau. Dharma sutra 52].' 'He who is a Sudra is a walking crematorium. Hence one should not read in the neighbourhood of a Sudra [Vasistha, 18]... Then there is the chopping off of his tongue if he should utter the vedas and the cutting of the body to pieces if he should commit it to memory [Gau. dharma sutras, 12.4]...'

This is a good topic that deserves a separate thread. Some would argue on the strength of the following verse that only those who have received mantra-diksha are qualified brahmanas: janmana jayate sudrah samskarad bhaved dvijah "By birth one is a sudra, but by the purificatory process (of samskaras) one becomes a dvija." Thus some would conclude that those who have not undergone the purificatory ceremonies of pancha-samskara (tapa, pundra, nama, etc.) should not study the shruti. Others, may interpret 'samskara' to refer to the ten purificatory ceremonies of Vedic culture (beginning with garbhadana samskara, etc.). Thus one not purified by such processes should not read or recite from the shruti. Shankaracharya argues that a shudra (one who has not undergone purification through samskara) should have molten lead poured down their throats if they recite the shruti. Of course today the shruti is something like Time Magazine or Newsweek, where it is thrown here and there and quoted by any and everyone without discretion. According to traditional Vedantists, the shruti should not be treated in such an open manner. It is a great secret only revealed to the highly qualified and pure soul under the guidance of the Guru. Thats quite a bit different then the modern method of ordering the Upanishads through amazon.com or some other book store, reading them, and expecting to somehow become realized by the external mechanical process without the guidance of the sat-guru. So what does the world do when practically no one possesses the internal qualification to study the shruti? For this reason we have been given the Puranas, which contain the same absolute conclusions as found in the shruti, but they are presented especially for the common man. In this sense, the Puranas are even more valuable then the Vedas in the modern age. When I get time I will post some nice excerpts from Sri Jiva Goswami's Tattva Sandarbha regarding the special position of the Puranas in the age of Kali. [This message has been edited by jndas (edited 07-13-2001).]

Oh yeah, I forgot the last step of the 'modus operandi'. Throw in a few samplings of the word 'shruti' here and there to make it appear that your statements are actually based on some upanishadic texts.

Congratulations, I salute your scholarship. There should be no question of which one to translate. Madhva has made it clear that only mula-ramayana is the authentic ramayana. Why should we look for the "devotional" ramayana. It is not man's duty to choose the scriptures that fit him. Which scriptures are truly divinely authored must be accepted. The purpose of a kshatriya in hunting dear is to utilize them in yajna, not to simply to eat their flesh. Regardless, it is again just your opinions which you expect everyone to accept. This has been your patern. Someone else will offer scriptural evidence, and your reply is "I am a big scholar, I read so many books, take my word for it." For example: You claimed that Bhavishya Purana was an upapurana. I corrected that point with scriptural evidence, but you refused to acknowledge this and instead challenged the point again even after being shown multiple evidences from various Puranic lists. You stated that a number of vegetables such as tomatos, chilis, etc. were forbiden to be eaten in the scriptures. I showed that none of the vegetables you mentioned existed in India prior to 500 years ago, and this is substantiated by both western historians and the lack of sanskrit words to define these items. Your answer is still pending. You said a potato remains pure as the ganga even if it touches beef. I asked for evidence, but you couldn't substantiate it with a single quote. Still waiting on this one too. Now I have shown scriptural evidence from Valmiki Ramayana as to what Ramachandra ate, and I have shown that other claimed references to Rama eating meat have so far turned out to be false. Your answer is, "I'm a big Ramayana scholar, take my word for it." Certainly the 'modus operandi' of God is unknowable, by the 'modus operandi' of Satyaraj is clear. Make a statement, tell people to accept it because you are a scholar, when counter evidence is shown, ignore it and speak about raganuga-bhakti.

I am curious as to what shruti statements you base the above sentences on. You talk a lot about shruti, but when it comes to what you write, it is just your own personal opinions; nothing to do particularly with the shruti. And then you will just pop in an 'ekam evadvitiyam brahma' or some catch-all phrase as though everything stated is from the shruti.

Though this may be a popular opinion, this logic is childish. We can just as well ask if God has done any apparently stupid activity. For example: Has God poked the eyes out of his mother and father due to their great devotion? If we say no, then some populist would argue, "You only want to limit God's activities to your mundane dharma. God can do anything." The fact is, the only way to know about God is from what He tells us about Himself. And up till now, he hasn't told us that he has poked out the eyes of His mother. Therefore we shouldn't foolishly attribute such an action to God simply on the basis that he is omnipotent and capable of doing anything. The same is the case as to whether or not Ramachandra ate meat. No one is trying to limit God to mundane morals. The fact is no one has shown evidence that Rama ate meat, whereas we have shown ample evidence from Valmiki Ramayana that He did not eat meat. Now the populist answer would be that "you are trying to limit God to your mundane dharma", or translated into simple English, "I don't have any proof for my speculative statement, and therefore I will avoid posting evidence, and instead twist the subject by claiming others are trying to limit the omnipotent God." Such a line of debate is certainly revealing in that it highlights the lack of a solid stand from which to argue.

Thank you for reposting that.

Are you sure you didn't post that message on dharma mela? After all, it is nearly a word for word duplicate of the sixth message posted in this thread, which happens to be authored by you. So either it is your post, or you plagarized that post. And since you had a habit of leaving the [ b ] and [ /b ] commands in place when you copied messages from here and posted them on the dharma mela, and since that message on Dharma Mela has those same tell-tale signs of [ b ] and [ /b ] (when quoting a message from Shvu), i stand by my statement. The Dharma Mela is truly a mela. Anyone can post anything under the name of anybody. there is no security measure to stop someone from posting as someone else, so it is impossible to verrify who posted what. But by the symptoms of the post, the identity of the poster usually becomes clear. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe you did just plagarize the post. Either way its nothing to be proud of.

Regarding the Gita Press edition of Ramayana, I am curious where they suggest the Rishis got the meat from? Were they walking with bows and hunting? Do they provide any further description? The rishis are instructed to live off of roots and certain fruits. There are even passages where a guru condemns his disciple for taking too much fruit from one tree, not thinking about the other animals that should eat from it!

Since the discussion has shifted far from the title of the thread, I have moved some of the other posts to a new topic. Please continue discussing there.

Since the discussion has shifted far from the title of the thread, I have moved some of the other posts to a new topic. Please continue discussing there.

The following references from the Valmiki Ramayana are provided by H.K. Susarla. It makes it quite clear that Rama did not eat meat. chaturdasha hi varShaaNi vatsyaami vijane vane | ka.mdamuulaphalairjiivan hitvaa munivadaamiSham || raa 2.20.29 || Indeed for fourteen years I shall actually live in a lonely forest, subsisting like ascetics on bulbs, roots and fruits and giving up royal fare(raamaayaNa, ayodhya-kaaNDa, 20.29). (spoken by Shrii Raama to Kausalyaa prior to His departing for the forest) phalamulashanaa nitya.m bhaviShyaami na sa.mshayaH | na tu duHkha.m kaiShyaami nivasantii tvayaa sadaa || raa 2.27.16 || I shall without doubt live on fruits and roots (alone) from day to day and shall not cause any annoyance to you while living with you (raamaayaNa, ayodhya-kaaNDa, 27.16). (spoken by Siitaa to Raama) patra.m muula.m phala.m yattu alpa.m vaa yadi vaa bahu daasyase svayamaahutya tanme.mR^itarasopamam || raa 2.30.15 || Anything you will give (me) in the shape of leaves, roots or fruits, bringing it yourself in a small or large quantity will taste like nectar to me (raamaayaNa, ayodhya-kaaNDa, 30.15). (spoken by Siitaa to Raama) na maaturna pitustatra smariShyaami na veshmanaH | aartavaanyupabhu~njaanaa puShpaaNi cha phalaani cha || raa 2.30.16 || Enjoying there seasonal flowers and fruits too I shall neither remember my mother nor father nor home (raamaayaNa, ayodhya-kaaNDa 30.16). kushachiiraajinaghara.m phalamuulaashana.m cha maam | viddhi praNihita.m dharme taapasa.m vanagocharam || raa 2.50.44 || Know me as under a vow to wear (a zone of) Kusha grass, the bark of trees and deerskin and to subsist on fruits and roots (alone), to practice austerities and dwell in the forest remaining devoted to piety (raamaayaNa, ayodhya-kaaNDa, 50.44). (spoken by Shrii Raama to Guha after the former refused an opulent feast being offered by the latter) pitraa niyuktaa bhagavan prabeShyaamastapovanam | dharmamevaachariShyaamastatra mR^ilphalaashanaaH || raa 2.54.16 || Ordered by our father, O venerable sage, we shall retire to a forest suited for austerities and shall practise virtue alone there, living on roots and fruits (only) (raamaayaNa, ayodhya-kaaNDa, 54.16). (spoken by Shrii Raama to sage Bharadwaaja) naanaavighaanannarasaan vanyamuulaphalaashrayaan | tebhyo dadau taptatapaa vaasa.m chaivaabhyakalpayat || raa 2.54.18 || The sage (who had practised austerities) offered them delicacies of every description prepared from wild roots and fruits, and also arranged accommodation for them (raamaayaNa, ayodhya-kaaNDa, 54.18).

Regarding the Gita Press edition, could you check if it is definitely Valmiki Ramayana, and if it mentions which recension this text is from. Another problem is that since Ramayana is universally known to have been authored by Valmiki, many books are popularly titled "Valmiki's Ramayana", when they are not actually from that text.

To make things even more complicated, there are several versions of "Valmiki" Ramayana today, which are very different from each other. For example I quoted in a previous post the same verse you referred here, and it isn't spoken by Hanuman, and it has absolutely nothing to do with food at all.

There are several editions of Ramayana that mention such things, but up till now I have not seen a version of Valmiki Ramayana that does, nor have I seen any traditional teacher state this (though they do say other unauthorized versions of Ramayana mention this). Valmiki Ramayana is the authorized depiction of Sri Rama's pastimes. Other versions are the works of various sadhus, some authentic, some not. If the story does not find a basis in Valmiki Ramayana, then its authenticity may be questioned. As to whether or not Rama ate meat, it is irrelevant, after all, he eats the universes. But the point is whether or not this statement is based on authority or speculation. Some of the people here like to speculate a lot about there being different varieties of Hari (the nondual Hari, the Puranic Hari, the shruti Hari, the deer Hari, the dirt Hari, etc.). When they are repeatedly shown to have provided false evidence (and to have not even read the scriptures they are quoting), rather than admit they are wrong or that they have made a mistake, they continue with their game by ignoring it and posting some mental speculation about spontaneous bhakti. Such shameless people really need to find a sadhu, for only a sadhu can guide us properly in the traditional study of shastra. Rather than relying on Munishwara such and such and his UNESCO printing press, better to find a guru. It won't be as easy as buying a book, but it is necessary for attaining Hari. Thats the instruction of Vallabha, and thats the instruction of every Vaishnava acharya.

Just to give an example of what I consider an irrational conclusion, here is an "evidence" posted by Satyaraj to the Dharma Mela forums regarding Rama eating meat: Why is it irrational? Because there is no such thing as a verse Ramayana 2:20. The Ramayana is divided into cantos, chapters, and verses; there needs to be three indicators to identify a verse. But you don't spend the 30 seconds to even look at a Ramayana, you just blindly take it as absolute authority. This verse is quoted on dozens of anti-hindu sites to prove that Rama ate meat. But it only convinces foolish people who have never read the scriptures. Like this there are around 10 or 20 other verses claimed to be from the Ramayana that in reality do not exist. Since most people won't take the time to verify, they feel they can just make up a verse and pass it off as authentic. To me, anyone who accepts such evidence without verifying it is coming to an irrational conclusion, more so if they then try to propagate such ignorance as truth.

ye tv anevaM-vido 'santaH stabdhAh sad-abhimAninaH pashUn druhyanti vishrabdhAH pretya khAdanti te ca tAn "Those sinful persons who are ignorant of actual religious principles, yet consider themselves to be completely pious, without compunction commit violence against innocent animals who are fully trusting them. In their next lives, such sinful persons will be eaten by the same creatures they have killed in this world." Bhagavata Purana 11.5.15

To give a slightly more serious answer, the cow is known as 'aghnya', or that which can not be killed. In the Veda's samhitas (which are available today), this term is used to indicate cows over 70 times. Sometimes the word 'cow' is used to refer to products of the cow, such as milk, butter, ghee, yoghurt,etc. Thus there are some verses that apparently refer to the meat of a cow, which in reality do not refer to that at all. There is an authorized system of gomedha yajna in the vedas, but this also has little to do with killing a cow. Sripada Madhvacharya establishes this clearly in his commentaries to Srimad Bhagavatam as follows: yajneshv alabhanam proktam devatoddeshatah pashoh himsa nama tad-anyatra tasmat tam nacared vudhah yato yajne mrita urdhvam yanti deve ca paitrike ato labhad alabhanam svargasya na tu maranam The vedas describe certain sacrifices to God that involve the offering of animals, but such offerings are not himsa (violence). If animals are killed for any other purpose, without rigidly following the Vedic injunctions, such killing is violence and should not be accepted by any intelligent person. In the sacrifice, the animal is immediately promoted to the heavenly planets, and this is visibly seen by the participants, thereby demostrating the efficacy of vedic mantras. It is not the killing of an animal. This requires a proper study, and won't be learnt from the google search. [This message has been edited by jndas (edited 07-13-2001).]

Seeing how little effort was put into gathering quotes and context regarding the eating of meat in the scriptures, I choose to reply with an equally insincere effort. Here are some quotes from Hinduism Today. Those that know my personal judgment of Hinduism Today can understand how much respect I must have for the google search research done by some forum members. I wonder what Vallabhacharya said on this topic? Maybe he was eating cows like we are told the rest of the Rishis were doing? Anyway, on with Hinduism Today! [This message has been edited by jndas (edited 07-13-2001).]