Jahnava Nitai Das

I would say they are right and shouldn't be forced to eat prasadam if they don't want it. It is clearly against their religion to eat food offered to a deity, and we shouldn't force them to do it, even if it is beneficial to them. Madrassas are islamic gurukulas, often viewed as fanatical. I think we should avoid them and let them prepare their own food as they want.

Just to clarify in case it sounded like I am against Jesus, I accept him as a pure devotee of the Lord, but on the authority of Srila Prabhupada - not based on some imagined tradition. It is dishonest for B.A. Goswami to claim the vaishnava tradition considers Jesus to be an incarnation of Baladeva. There are many, many vaishnava traditions in existence, of which none accept Jesus as an incarnation of Baladeva. In fact some vaishnava traditions do not even accept Baladeva Himself to be an incarnation (the madhva's). Only Srila Prabhupada has stated that Jesus is an empowered incarnation. Besides him you won't find a single acharya who has made such a claim. So certainly the traditions do not teach that Jesus is an incarnation of Baladeva. They don't need to teach it because it isn't part of their tradition. It is out of their field of focus.

Its ridiculous to pretend Vaishnava traditions say Jesus is an incarnation of Baladeva. It may or may not be true that he is, but no Vaishnava tradition has ever said this. In fact with the exception of Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Srila Prabhupada, no Vaishnava tradition has even spoken about Jesus. So to write an article about how "vaishnava traditions" consider Jesus to be an incarnation of Baladeva is just stupid. Vaishnava traditions, going back thousands of years, do not even mention him. He may be a pure devotee and an empowered incarnation, but that isn't something the vaishnava traditions have ever said.

Being born without sexual organs refers to having an incomplete sexual reproductive system: From wikipedia on intersex: "If sameness is defined by gonads, again, intersex people present the first problem. Some people are born either without any gonads, with non-functioning gonads, or with a mismatching set, i.e. one testicle and one ovary." Of course there are all sorts of variations to this, and I don't want to get into the details of it right now in the Rameswara thread. He deserves better than that. The summary of it is that the "napumsaka" (as cited in Gita by Krishna) refers to someone born with a genetic defect that results in the development of incomplete reproductive organs. Modern scholars have put this occurence at around 0.018% of the population (one person out of 5500 people). The word literally means not male, (na - not; pumsaka - man). This has no connection at all with todays concept of homosexual (the Galva group), which is a matter of choice. The word eunuch almost universally means that, except when it is used as a translation for sanskrit words such as napumsaka (or the hindi hijra). For lack of a precise medical term, many translators and dictionaries have taken the easy approach and define napumsaka as a "eunuch". And thus in India the word eunuch has come to be synonymous with the hijra and napumsaka - but with no connection to castration. It is for this reason that Srila Prabhupada says: Srila Prabhupada: Eunuchs? What is the eunuch? Devotee: Eunuch. A eunuch is a… Srila Prabhupada: Tell me that. Devotee: Impotent… someone who's been castrated. Srila Prabhupada: Oh. That is called a eunuch. Devotee: Eunuch. Srila Prabhupada: Rather, by nature, neither man nor woman. The napumsaka is by nature neither man nor woman, but most sanskrit dictionaries will include eunuch as the definition. Now back to Rameswara...

In the same chapter Krishna says among trees I am the banyon. The entire chapter is about seeing the awe inspiring qualities of God in nature and existence.

Highlights from the old Galva debate on these forums: http://www.indiadivine.org/galva-reply.htm

He has already provided plenty of his comments on these forums, and at the time I said he was insane as well. Anyone who says homosex is not sinful, and that homosexuals are more detached than heterosexuals - and still claims to follow Srila Prabhupada - is insane. That more or less covers the entire Galva following. Many of their formerly staunch debaters are no longer even devotees, and have written asking their names be removed from these forums, with the threat of legal consequences if we didnt comply.

prabhu kahe,—caturali chada, sanatana saktyavesavatarera suna vivarana Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied, “O Sanatana, you must give up your intelligent tricks. Now just try to understand the description of the saktyavesa-avataras. saktyavesavatara krishnera asankhya ganana dig-darasana kari mukhya mukhya jana “There are unlimited saktyavesa-avataras of Lord Krishna. Let Me describe the chief among them. saktyavesa dui-rupa—‘mukhya’, ‘gauna’ dekhi sakshat-saktye ‘avatara’, abhase ‘vibhuti’ likhi “Empowered incarnations are of two types—primary and secondary. The primary ones are directly empowered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead and are called incarnations. The secondary ones are indirectly empowered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead and are called vibhuti. ‘sanakadi’, ‘narada’, ‘prithu’ ‘parasurama’ jiva-rupa ‘brahmara’ avesavatara-nama “Some saktyavesa-avataras are the four Kumaras, Narada, Maharaja Prithu and Parasurama. When a living being is empowered to act as Lord Brahma, he is also considered a saktyavesa-avatara. vaikunthe ‘sesha’—dhara dharaye ‘ananta’ ei mukhyavesavatara—vistare nahi anta “Lord Sesha in the spiritual world of Vaikuntha and, in the material world, Lord Ananta, who carries innumerable planets on His hoods, are two primary empowered incarnations. There is no need to count the others, for they are unlimited. sanakadye ‘jnana’-sakti, narade sakti ‘bhakti’ brahmaya ‘srishti’-sakti, anante ‘bhu-dharana’-sakti “The power of knowledge was invested in the four Kumaras, and the power of devotional service was invested in Narada. The power of creation was invested in Lord Brahma, and the power to carry innumerable planets was invested in Lord Ananta. seshe ‘sva-sevana’-sakti, prithute ‘palana’ parasurame ‘dushta-nasaka-virya-sancarana’ “The Supreme Personality of Godhead invested the power of personal service in Lord Sesha, and He invested the power to rule the earth in King Prithu. Lord Parasurama received the power to kill rogues and miscreants. jnana-sakty-adi-kalaya yatravishto janardanah ta avesa nigadyante jiva eva mahattamah “‘Whenever the Lord is present in someone by portions of His various potencies, the living entity representing the Lord is called a saktyavesa-avatara—that is, an incarnation invested with special power.’ ‘vibhuti’ kahiye yaiche gita-ekadase jagat vyapila krishna-sakty-abhasavese “As explained in the Eleventh Chapter of the Bhagavad-gita, Krishna has spread Himself all over the universe in many personalities through specific powers, known as vibhuti. yad yad vibhutimat sattvam srimad urjitam eva va tat tad evavagaccha tvam mama tejo-‘msa-sambhavam “‘Know that all opulent, beautiful and glorious creations spring from but a spark of My splendor.’ atha va bahunaitena kim jnatena tavarjuna vishtabhyaham idam kritsnam ekamsena sthito jagat “‘But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe.’ eita kahilun sakty-avesa-avatara balya-pauganda-dharmera sunaha vicara “Thus I have explained specifically empowered incarnations. Now please hear about the characteristics of Lord Krishna’s childhood, boyhood and youth. isvarera avatara e-tina prakara amsa-avatara, ara guna-avatara saktyavesa-avatara—tritiya e-mata amsa-avatara—purusha-matsyadika yata "There are three categories of incarnations of Godhead: partial incarnations, qualitative incarnations and empowered incarnations. The purushas and Matsya are examples of partial incarnations." brahma vishnu siva—tina gunavatare gani sakty-avesa—sanakadi, prithu, vyasa-muni "Brahma, Vishnu and Siva are qualitative incarnations. Empowered incarnations are those like the Kumaras, King Prithu and Maha-muni Vyasa [the compiler of the Vedas]." amsa-saktyavesa-rupe dvi-vidhavatara balya pauganda dharma dui ta’ prakara "His incarnations are of two kinds, namely partial and empowered. He appears in two ages—childhood and boyhood." jnana-sakty-adi-kalaya yatravishto janardanah ta avesa nigadyante jiva eva mahattamah “A living entity who is specifically empowered by the Lord with knowledge or strength is technically called avesa-rupa.” gunavatara, ara manvantaravatara yugavatara, ara saktyavesavatara "There are incarnations that control the material qualities [guna-avataras], incarnations associated with the reign of each Manu [manvantara-avataras], incarnations in different millenniums [yuga-avataras] and incarnations of empowered living entities [saktyavesa-avataras]."

There is a difference between Kirtanananda instructing people to produce, smuggle and sell drugs - and Srila Prabhupada receiving a donation from someone who sold drugs. Srila Prabhupada never instructed anyone to engage in illegal activities. Every time such activities were brought to his attention he said that they must be stopped.

The actions of Kirtanananda that made ISKCON look like a cult were more along the lines of: 1) murdering dissenters 2) molesting young boys 3) installing known pedophiles in positions of power 4) drug smuggling sankirtan (a temple in Ohio was even raided for producing methamphetamines) His other deviations in regards to dress, songs, and temple alterations are really not important in view of his more criminal activities. Since you admit that you don't know what it means, better not try suggesting that it refers to homosexuality. All rasas in vraja have a tinge of madhurya rasa, as the center of vraja lila is Radha and Krishna's conjugal pastimes. The topic has nothing to do with Kirtanananda being a homosexual. You are truly insane if such thoughts come to your mind when you hear about Krishna's beauty. The rest of the sane world doesn't think it refers to homosexuality when an acharya says "Balarama is so beautiful everyone wants to play with him." And to try and justify Kirtanananda's homosexuality and child molestation on the grounds that Sridhar Maharaja said "everyone wants to play with Balarama" is just absurd. Maybe when your guru maharaja comes to California you can clear the matter up with him directly rather than speculate on what Sridhar Maharaj meant. Just ask him if Sridhar Maharaja was refering to homosexuality when he said everyone wants to play with Balarama. Maybe, just to make things perfectly clear, you could also ask him if Kirtanananda's homosexuality is somehow spiritually related to the statement of Sridhar Maharaja you quoted.

He is an empowered incarnation (shaktyaveshavatara). Empowered with the Lords bhakti.

The blame being hung on the heads of people like Kirtanananda is not the bad actions of subordinates. It is their personal and direct past actions that have brought them infamy. For example: 1) Kirtanananda had devotees murdered. 2) Kirtanananda has molested many children (there are records and testimony with the ISKCON Child Protection Office to corroborate this) 3) Kirtanananda personally allowed other known child molestors to be in charge of the children at New Vrindavan while being fully aware of what was happening. Samba was not molested by Kirtanananda because he was the son of Kirtanananda's best friend. The rest of the children weren't so lucky. There are others who take inspiration from Hitler. It means nothing about the character of the person. Keep closing your eyes and pretend Kirtanananda was a saint. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. When someone gives their opinion that these people were empowered by Krishna, I will exercise my free speech and give my opinion that they were demons who infiltrated Lord Caitanya's movement.

Many times people bring up the idea that people such as Kirtanananda, Bhavananda, Bhagavan, etc. were "empowered by Lord Krishna" and accomplished great things for ISKCON, but finally they fell to maya like geat generals in a battle. Thats a bunch of nonsense. These people did nothing for ISKCON, in fact they destroyed ISKCON from the beginning itself. All of the geat accomplishments in ISKCON weren't done by these rascals, they were done by the sincere devotees working under them. Did Kirtanananda build New Vrinavan? No, he sat by abusing kids as the parents of those children worked in slave labor to develop that project. Did Harikesh distribute millions of Srila Prabhupada's books throughout Europe? No his disciples struggled and did that hard work while he lived in a motor home that cost a quarter of a million dollars. Did Bhavananda develop Mayapur? Not one bit. He abused the local Bengali children while living a luxurious life in the holy dham. None of these people were empowered by Krishna, unless you are thinking in the way that Hiranyakashipu was also empowered by Krishna. The devotees who were empowered by Krishna were the sincere bhaktas and disciples who sacrificed everything thinking it was for Krishna, but in the end found out it most of it was for some useless criminal. After destroying ISKCON, Kirtananana still managed to stash away enough money in secret bank accounts to buy a huge building in New York. After destroying ISKCON Harikesh still managed to buy a mansion in the french riviera, which he later sold for one million dollars. After destroying ISKCON Bhagavan still managed to empty the safe and run off with every last penny he could find. These people were rascals who destroyed ISKCON. But the sincere and hard working devotees who actually accomplished everything were more often than not left in the street like dogs. So I will have to disagree anytime I hear that these people where "empowered by Lord Krishna to do great things". They were the demons who infiltrated Lord Caitanya's sankirtan movement to try to stop its spread and influence in the Kali Yuga. Ultimately these demons like dhenukasura, aghasura, trinivarta, and putana can't stop Lord Caitanya's sankirtan movement. In that sense I can accept it as the Lila of Mahaprabhu. The demons have attacked His sankirtan movement, and he has responed by destroying those demons just like Lord Krishna did 5,000 years ago.

Yes, I don't think any of the leaders were victims. They all willfully misused their positions and subsequently destroyed Srila Prabhupada's movement. But if they are sincerely sorry for what they did they could be forgiven by the devotees.

Of all of the zonal acharyas he has done the least amount of damage. He misused his position for a short amount of time, 3 or 4 years, whereas there are others who have misused their positions for 30 years. Also his zone was one of the few zones that did not collapse after he left. It is still one of the strongest zones in the world outside of India. The BBT remained strong even after he left. He could have really destroyed things if he wanted to. He could have bankrupted the BBT and ran off with the money. But he handed the leadership over to others and they continued managing it. People like Bhagavan and Bhavananda destroyed their zones and left them without a penny or a building. I believe part of the reason his zone was not looted was because he handed things over to his assistants. It wasn't an outside party coming in to take over management. For example, Badrinarayana who still is in charge of San Diego was his close assistant. Overall the tone of his letter sounds like he is sorry for what he did and wants to perform humble service to Srila Prabhupada's movement. If other former leaders would take a humble position and apologize for what they have done, then I am sure many people would forgive them for their mistakes. They were only around 25 to 30 years old when Srila Prabhupada left the world. Only the biggest fool in the world would install vyasasanas for themself in all of Prabhupada's temples throughout the world while they were only 25 years old, and then demand all of Prabhupada's disciples to worship them. Imagine today if some 25 year old kid (who had been a devotee for just 7 years) brought an easy chair into the LA temple and placed it next to Prabhupada and started telling everyone they had to worship him as good as God. It is really almost laughable. But thats exactly what happened. A bunch of people who had been devotees for just 7 or 8 years, and who were around 25 to 28 years old started putting seats next to Prabhupada and demanded all of Prabhupada's disciples to worship them as good as God. You have to be really insanse to demand that at the age of 25.

Brahma is born from a lotus flower that grows from Vishnu's navel. There are unlimited universes, each with their own Brahma. All of those universes emanate from the breathing of Maha Vishnu as tiny specs. What seems like gigantic universes to us, are nothing but tiny specs that manifest and get dissolved in a matter of one second of Mahavishnu. 1) Vishnu was always the supreme. 2)The Lord is unlimited in all respects, so He possesses unlimited names as well. 1) Budhists do not accept a supreme person. They believe in nirvana and nothingness. 2) You would need to ask a buddhist about their beliefs. There is no point asking a Hindu why a Buddhist believes something.

This is an interesting point, because the general answer given by devotees is in regards to quantity and quality. But, as is evident to anyone, that is in no way inconceivable (acintya). The real oneness is something which can't be conceived, and so is much beyond the simple analogy of quantity an quality (ocean and drop of ocean water, etc.)

There have been enough "fall of the soul" threads in the last few weeks. They have all ended up getting closed, so it is obvious that the same arguments will arise in any thread on this topic. Everyone has made their own points. So there will be no more "fall of the soul" threads allowed for the next few months. I have asked the moderators to delete any future threads that come up on this topic. And we really aren't interested in people posting their books here in the discussion forum. Discussions are personal dialogues between people. All of this copy/paste spamming that has been going on by several people needs to stop. Already one such person was banned for this a few days ago.

From Caru's newsletter: Robert Grant, formerly Ramesvara Swami, walked along side of Lord Jagannatha’s cart. Though he was once in charge of the festival he moved to New York in about 1989 and had not been since. It was a very emotional return for him and the many devotees who welcomed him back. A few weeks ago the Utah online gift store received an order for four books from Robert Grant, who also wrote a message. “Haribol! All glories to Srila Prabhupada! I am so happy to have found your site, and to see the wonderful service you are performing. One day, when I have finally extricated myself from my mundane responsibilities and entanglements, perhaps I can crawl back and be allowed to humbly clean or do some other meager service for Prabhupada's devotees in a temple like this one.” Robert Grant (Ramesvara Dasa)

Ashtadhatu Deities of Sri Devi, Bhu Devi and Vimala Devi Installed at the Bhaktivedanta Ashram http://www.bvashram.org/articles/136/1/ [ Sri Vimala Devi at the Bhaktivedanta Ashram, Bhadrak ] [ To view all pictures, please visit the following website: http://www.bvashram.org/articles/136/1/ ] Dear friends and devotees, Jaya Sita Rama. Please accept my humble pranams. On the auspicious occasion of Puri Jagannatha Ratha Yatra, the sacred deities of Sri Devi (Lakshmi), Bhu Devi and Vimala Devi were installed at the Bhaktivedanta Ashram in Bhadrak, Orissa. Each deity has been crafted from 110 kilograms (242 lbs) of ashtadhatu metal (a combination of eight metals: gold, silver, copper, zinc, lead, tin, iron, and mercury), and they are each approximately two and a half feet tall. Work on these sacred deities had begun more than two years ago, and it has finally culminated in the pranapratishtha ceremony held on Ratha Yatra day. According to Puri tradition, no Jagannatha temple is complete without the presence of these three divine shaktis of the Lord, who are His eternal servitors and devotees. In Puri it is believed that the daily bhoga offerings cooked for Lord Jagannatha are actually cooked directly by Lakshmi Devi, with temple devotees acting only as instruments. After offering the bhoga to Lord Jagannatha, the prasadam is then offered to Vimala Devi, whereby it becomes mahaprasadam. The scriptures state that this Jagannatha mahaprasadam has the special potency to grant mukti to anyone who eats it. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has taught us that the secret to approaching Lord Krishna is to approach Him through His devotees. Mahaprabhu said: amara bhakter puja—ama hoite bada sei prabhu vede-bhagavate koila dadha "Lord Krishna has declared in the Vedas and Bhagavata Purana, 'Worship of My devotees is superior to worship of Me.'" The same instruction is spoken directly by Lord Krishna to Arjuna in the Adi Purana: ye me bhakta-janah partha ne me bhaktas ca te janah mad bhaktanam ca ye bhaktas te me bhaktatama matah "O Partha, one who claims to be My devotee is not so. Only a person who claims to be a devotee of My devotee is actually My devotee." Thus the presence of Sri Devi, Bhu Devi and Vimala Devi provides us all a wonderful opportunity to approach Lord Krishna through service to His pure devotees. Srila Prabhupada has explained this as follows: "Nobody can be better devotee than Radharani. So as soon as Radha’s name is there, Krishna is more pleased. So that is the way. If we glorify the devotees, the character of the devotees, before the Lord, He’s more pleased than to glorify Himself." - Srila Prabhupada, Lecture on Srimad Bhagavatam 7.9.11-13 (March 24, 1969) I would like to thank all of the devotees who have helped in various ways to complete this service of installing these sacred deities of Sri Devi, Bhu Devi and Vimala Devi. I pray to Lord Jagannatha, and to His divine consorts and shaktis, that everyone involved in this service receives unlimited spiritual blessings for their offerings of love and devotion. Yours in service, Jahnava Nitai Das, Bhaktivedanta Ashram & Bhaktivedanta International Charities http://www.bvashram.org http://www.foodrelief.org [ To view all pictures, please visit the following website: http://www.bvashram.org/articles/136/1/ ]

Hari-bhakti-vilasa has nothing to do with constructing deities.

Even today it is extremely expensive to make a Deity, whether it is from marble, granite or ashtadhatu. 500 years ago, when transportation did not exist as it does now, and when sadhus lived in secluded places with no possessions, it was impossible for each sadhu to make a deity of their guru. Even the deities of Krishna in temples were donated by kings. Making a deity of a traditional god or goddess itself is a long and difficult process, but making an accurate deity of a living person is much more difficult. For a god or goddess there are drawings and descriptions of how the deity is supposed to look. But 500 years ago there were no cameras or photogaphs, so what exactly would the artist base his carving on? A mendicant babaji in a forest in Vrindavan with no money is supposed to go to Delhi or Agra to bring an artisan for carving a deity, and then he is supposed to explain how his guru looked? And this artisan is going to stay in the forest with this babaji for a month as he carves it? Guru murtis weren't made simply because it wasn't practical, and that is why a small round stone is used as their murti in Gaudiya Vaishnava samadhis. Anyone can get a small round stone without much endeavour. Guru murtis did not originate with Srila Prabhupada. Ramanuja had his deity established in three different temples while he was still living. You obviously think he was a fool who didn't know the shastra. In the madhva line Raghavendra deities have been worshipped for hundreds of years. Your claim that there is no reference to guru murtis in the shastras assumes that you have studied shilpa shastra - something I seriously doubt.

The reason has nothing to do with the guru's murtis being less or not appropriate. The guru's shoes are worshipped because his lotus feet physically touched those shoes, and they become his direct representation. There is no difference between keeping a guru's shoes on the altar and keeping his murti. The practicality of an individual babaji, living alone in Vrindavan 500 years ago, making a single murti of his guru to worship on his altar with correct likeness is why it isn't done. It is much simpler to accept the shoes of the guru than to attempt an impossible feat like making a deity of him. It is offensive to make a distinction between a siddha guru's deity and the guru's shoes. They are both on the absolute platform and equally worshipable. Most gaudiya vaishnava samadhis contain a tiny deity of the bhakta that looks like a shiva linga. It is bathed, dressed and marked with tilak every day. Why a deity isn't made? Because it can't be done. Making an accurate deity of a person is both expensive and extremely difficult even today. And it certainly could not have been done by renounced mendicants living in remote places like Vrindavan hundreds of years ago.