Jagat

Rather than bothering to counter Puru Das usual arguments, I ask that people take what I say at face value. Most of you are familiar with Puru's position, and I dare say you are equally familiar with mine. Some of you sympathize with Puru and detest me personally and everything I stand for. Others amongst you find my position persuasive and Puru remarkably closed-minded -- an accusation that he will no doubt take pride in. There is no point in me trying to convince Puru of anything, as I could say the sky is blue and he would accuse me of having some wicked motives and blame my intellectual's ego for my perceptual distortions. I ask you to decide whether I am, as he would have it, the Devil's shepherd looking to mislead the innocent sheep who frequent these dangerous pastures, or an individual who is simply acting according to his nature and sharing his own discoveries with brothers and sisters who have trod the same paths as I. I repeat: I seek to convince you of nothing other than the foolhardiness of closing your mind. Puru will try to convince you that your minds must remain closed. He will not ask you to look at the evidence, but to close your eyes to it. I would not want to be tried in a court where Puru Prabhu is judge, for he would point to his cause and say that it is greater than truth. Need I say what a great danger this mentality is to humanity itself? Haven't we learned anything from history? Peter Valaya pointed out a passage to me from Tattva-sUtra on the weekend. I referred to it above. I don't have Bhakti Kamal Padmanabha Maharaj's Chetla Gaudiya Math translation, but I do have the original Bengali with me. So, Peter, if you want to post that translation, I would be much beholden to you. Bhaktivinoda Thakur says: <font color=#9F5F9F>"Knowledge is like the sun, while all scriptures are only its rays. No single scripture could possibly contain all knowledge. The personal realizations (svataH siddha-jnAna) of the jivas are the basis of all scripture. These realizations should be recognized as the gifts of God Himself. The perceptive Rishis obtained this self-evident knowledge directly from the Supreme Brahman and wrote it down for the benefit of other jivas. A fractional portion of this knowledge is took form as the Veda." (page 150) "A conditioned soul is advised to study the Veda with the help fo all these explanations. But even with the help of these explanations, he should still examine them in the light of his own self-evident knowledge (or personal realizations), because the authors of these explanatory literatures and commentaries are not always clear in their meaning. In some cases, commentators have confessed to having doubts about their own understanding. Therefore the Kathopanishad says: <center>avidyAyAm antare vartamAnAH svayaM dhIrAH paNDitaM manyamAnAH | dandramyamAnAH pariyanti mUDhAH andhenaiva nIyamAnA yathAndhAH ||</center> <blockquote>Abiding in the midst of ignorance, thinking themselves wise and learned, fools go aimlessly hither and thither, like blind led by the blind. (Katha Up. 2.5)</blockquote> Therefore, it is necessary to cultivate knowledge in the light of one's own personal realizations. This is the rule governing scriptural study. Since knowledge born of personal realization is the root of all the scriptures, how can we expect to gain benefit by ignoring it and depending exclusively on the scriptures, which are the branches growing out of it?" (pp. 151-152)</font> You will no doubt see how this liberal statement meets with my approval. Well, I think we have had enough of a preamble. So now let us leave aside our preconvictions and examine the matter at hand. The question: <ul>[*]Was Jiva Goswami a closet parakiya-vadi?

I quite agree with most of the things that are stated in your last post, Puru. I don't think that empiric knowledge is the object of spiritual life, either. My feeling is, however, that in some cases devotees themselves mistake empiric for spiritual knowledge. This is exactly what I have been saying all along. You take the Prabodhananda/Prakashananda question -- a matter that can be established by empirical means, i.e., through textual evidence -- and make it an issue that legitimizes someone's spiritual standing. In other words, if I agree with you, I am spiritually OK, if I don't agree, I am not. This is the attitude I object to, with all my heart.

"Mother Linda" 4. We urgently need information about Padayatra in the U.S. Sun, 8 Jul 2001 10:43:59 +0100 We urgently need information about Padayatra in the U.S. We are experiencing a lot of resistence to our cow protection and especially our ox working activities here in western NY from the local inhabitants. One neighbor actually ran us off the road with is all terain vehicle while we were crossing a street with the ox calves pulling a cart load of hay! The local village government is trying to bar our cow from being in the village and our oxen from walking on the road with a cart, although the Amish are allowed access to the roads, as are individuals who use horses for pleasure rides. We urgently need information about Padayatra in the U.S. I would like to speak with anyone who has worked on getting road permits or permissions from government municipalities to practice Padayatra. I need to give proof of prior precidents to the attorneys and news people who are working with us. Could anyone who has had experience with this type of work please contact me? I would be glad to here from anyone who knows who I can contact about this matter or about getting exemptions from local ordinances which prohibit cows in suburban areas. I can be reached at: krsigoraksa@webtv.net Thanks for your help, All Glories to Srila Prabhupada's cow protection and ox working program. Mother Linda

<font color=#669999>As on the other thread I started today on the svakiya parakiya controversy, I thought I may as well make the following article available to the devotees. This article has already been published in the Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies. Some cosmetic changes are being made, as I find my writing style leaves a lot to be desired. I ask you to read with an open mind. If at the end you decide, "My spiritual masters have told me something different and I must respect their opinions above all others," I say, "Very well. That is your prerogative. But kindly be respectful of those who hold the contrary position, for their proofs are not negligible and may indeed be stronger than yours." </font></hr> <h2>PRABODHANANDA SARASWATI: FROM BENARES TO BRAJ</h2> <h3>Introduction</h3> Over the past several centuries, the town of Vrindavan in Uttar Pradesh has celebrated the loves of the pastoral god Krishna and his beloved Radha. Numerous saints and devotional authors have contributed to the rich cultural heritage of this Hindu holy land, all doing much to strengthen its position as a center for one of the most important streams of religious feeling in India. However, despite the theological claims of universal liberation from mundane preoccupations said to result from such religious feeling, the Vaishnavism of Vrindavan shows the same susceptibility to rivalry that can be detected in all human endeavors. This rivalry takes the form of controversies, many of which have not yet been entirely resolved. In this article and another which follows it, I undertake to address a triad of such controversies, well aware that the matters are still sensitive ones for both the parties involved: the Radha Vallabhi followers of Hita Harivams, and the Gaudiyas, followers of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. The chief matter contested by these devotees is the authorship of a book well-loved by both sects: the Rädhä-rasa-sudhä-nidhi (RRSN), ascribed to Hita Harivams by his followers and to Prabodhananda Saraswati by the Gaudiyas.(1) Before treating this question, however, one is obliged to confront two others: one concerns the identity of Prabodhananda, the second that of Hita Harivams's relation to the Gaudiya school. Both of these personalities are claimed by each of the sects to have, at one time or another, accepted allegiance to their own group. All three of these issues have been obscured over time by traditional historians of the two sects who either through silence, deliberate falsification or real ignorance have exaggerated or distorted the relevant facts. In some cases, the information available is starkly self-contradictory, as in the matter of Prabodhananda's identity. In the absence of sufficient historical records, it is understandable that some feel it impossible to come to any reliable conclusions on any of these matters. In the same way, much of what has been written on these matters by latter day Indian scholars is also colored by sectarian leanings, and there is a sad ignorance in each of the sects about their rival's traditions and literature. The necessity for an impartial study is therefore felt, and it is hoped that the discussion presented here will fill that need. It is here proposed that through the application of scientific literary criticism to the works of Prabodhananda and Hita Harivams, in this case a comparison of style, vocabulary and subject matter, confident conclusions may be reached in the matter of the authorship of RRSN. This, coupled with the available historical evidence, may enable us to make reasonably confident assumptions about Prabodhananda and Harivams's sectarian affiliations. This exercise commences in this article with an examination of the works of Prabodhananda and other, later authors of both schools to establish as far as possible a reliable biography. In the article which follows, we shall examine the life of Harivams and the RRSN itself. <hr>(1) Abbreviations of other titles used in this article are as follows: ARP = Azcarya-rAsa-prabandha; BhP = BhAgavata-purANa; BRK = Bhakti-ratnAkara; BRS = Bhakti-rasAmRta-sindhu; CP = CaurAsI Pada or Hita-caurAsI; CCA = Caitanya-candrAmRta; CC = Caitanya-caritAmRta; GItag = GIta-govinda; HBV = Hari-bhakti-vilAsa; KKA = KRSNa-karNAamRta; PV = Prema-vilAsa; SangM = SangIta-mAdhava; UN = Ujjvala-nIlamaNi; VMA = VRndAvana-mahimAmRta.

No, that's OK, Gauracandra. I would like to see discussion as we go along. I will post a little bit each day. The article is fairly long. I would like to add one important thing: I do not consider myself to be a superior sadhaka to any of the great souls whose opinions on so many details of history, etc., I may call into question. I am not here to win a personal following. I am making these points because I feel very strongly that this movement's integrity comes about in part from looking at historical facts squarely, without prejudice. Prabhupada told us Krishna Consciousness was not a sectarian movement. It behooves us to understand what sectarianism is and how it acts. [This message has been edited by Jagat (edited 07-08-2001).]

<font color=#669999>On VNN today, I notice that in her very nicely expressed article, Shyamarani Devi has brought up the Jiva Goswami's svakiya-vada. Another article by Narayan Maharaj called "Boycott the Sahajiya Babajis" is currently in circulation in which he condemns the Babajis for a number of heterodox positions including believing that Prabodhananda and Prakashananda are the same person and that Jiva Goswami was a svakiya vadi. The third major point he makes is that the Babajis are against the Madhva sampradaya connection. In my own humble opinion, these are all minor controversies that hardly warrant going to war over. The most serious of them is the last, as the svakiya-parakiya debate, does seem to represent a significant difference in siddhanta, rather than being a matter of historical detail. I have studied all three of these questions in some depth and have found in each case that the Gaudiya position is not as strong as it would like us all to believe. I did not set out to become a thorn in the Gaudiya Math's side. I simply tried to get to the bottom of each one of these questions and find the truth on the basis of verifiable evidence -- the texts themselves. It is not for the sake of controversy that I bring these matters up. It is rather to create a spirit of tolerance for controversy. Shyamarani's article is called "How to Reconcile Apparent Contradictions." On the same page, my friend Puru Das has also written an article called "Dvesh, the enemy of bhakti." When Narayan Maharaj's disciples are trying so hard to find ways to reconcile their understanding with other Vaishnavas of the Gaudiya Math line, why are they apparently unable to tolerate minor points of difference with other members of the Gaudiya family when it comes to these other details? I am troubled by this hardening of attitudes towards other members of our own spiritual family. I think we should have a friendly attitude to all creatures, what to speak of those who have dedicated their lives to serving Srimati Radharani. When we don't know something, we sometimes take recourse to authority to hide the weakness of our position. We say, "My guru or my param guru said something, therefore it must be true. As a result everyone else is wrong and an anathema." I have looked at Gaudiya Math arguments dealing with the three positions mentioned in the Narayan Maharaj article named above and have found that they have not advanced since the time of Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur. There has been no attempt to encounter new evidence presented by the opposing side. A further point: all three of these debates are old ones. The Gaudiya Math is not the only group that holds its positions. There are Babajis who identify with the Madhva-sampradaya, who believe that Prabodhananda was not Prakashananda (though they are becoming fewer) and that Jiva Goswami was a parakiya vadi at heart. So why are all Babajis being tarred with the same brush. Is this simply an attempt to create enmity where none is needed? I detest black and white thinking. I detest this facility for condemning other groups because of some philosophical difference that is so rampant in every branch of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. It is a sign of spiritual immaturity and I detest it. Even if we feel strongly about something, we should honor another person's arguments. We should be ready to acknowledge if someone else has a strong argument. We must be honest in debate instead of hiding behind authority and then disingenuously condemning others for being "aparadhis." If I take up debates on these forums that go counter to many dearly held ideas of the Gaudiya Math, it is not because I seek the destruction of the Gaudiya Math. On the contrary, I wish for the eternal good health and prosperity of all branches of the Gaudiya Math. But as I myself am condemned to carry the burden of being an intellectual, I ask that we expand our horizons, that we tolerate the differences that exist between us as Vaishnavas, and that we continue to respect the fundamental sincerity of the jiva's "self-evident knowledge" (svataH-siddha-jnAnam) as Bhaktivinoda Thakur puts it in the Tattva-sutra (Sutra 41). In furtherance of the objective that everyone broaden their understanding, I am going to serialize an article that I have previously published, entitled "Did Krishna marry the gopis in the end?"

http://www-mtl.look.ca/~xxi-21/page5.html

I guess that answers my question: "No!" Submissive questioning means knowing that you are always wrong if you disagree. Absurd enquiries are those that demand one take contradictory evidence into consideration. As far as Prabodhananda Saraswati is concerned -- have you read the account of his life given by Bhagavant Mudita? Do you think that a 17th century text written by a Gaudiya Vaishnava who joined the Radha Vallabh sampradaya might be worth considering when making pronouncements about Prabodhananda? Is there any indication that Bhaktivinoda Thakur or Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur knew of this book?

_________ All glories to Sri-Sri Guru-Gauranga SRI CHAITANYA SARASWAT MATH NABADWIP NEWS BULLETIN, No. 01-071 6 July 2001 A Devotional Offering to keep in touch with our Math's family world-wide _________ HAPPY RETURN FROM AN OUTSTANDING TOUR After almost a month abroad, Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev-Goswami Maharaj has returned to India in good health and extremely good spirits. It will be a further week before His Divine Grace returns to Calcutta, however by phone Srila Maharaj has happily described some of the recent outstanding events. These words have brought us all much relief, especially because of the considerable concern for his poor health just days before starting from India. Many have enquired, and yes it is true that towards the end of May Srila Gurudev had a bad day health-wise, and said he felt like he had a mild stroke. However by next day he was back to his usual jovial self and up and about more or less as usual. We were all very concerned, and within a few days Srila Gurudev went to Calcutta and underwent extensive medical examinations including scans. There was a big sigh of relief when the reports arrived. He received a clean bill of health except for slightly high blood sugar -- a mild condition kept under control by diet and traditional medicines. LONDON First stop was London. Throughout this tour Srila Govinda Maharaj was accompanied from India by a record six fully sponsored associates, including Sripad Bhakti Prapanna Tirtha Maharaj, the manager of our Calcutta Dum Dum Park Temple; Sripad Bhakti Nirmal Acharyya Maharaj, the manager of Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math, here in Nabadwip; and Ranjit Prabhu, Srila Gurudev's personal assistant. This was the first tour abroad for both Sripad Acharyya Maharaj and Sri Ranjit Prabhu. In London, of course everyone was fully nourished to have Srila Maharaj with them again. This was his twelfth visit to London and his 18th International Tour. However Srila Govinda Maharaj soon developed a severe lung infection and ran a high temperature for 4 days. Then, by everyone's care and devotion, Srila Gurudev suddenly recovered, one report said "miraculously," thus giving opportunity for all to have his darshan once again. His whole stay in London was just over a week, so by the time Srila Gurudev regained his strength every moment in his association became even more valuable. St. PETERSBURG Soon Srila Gurudev was on his way to St. Petersburg, Russia. He was greeted by a large group of devotees headed by Vijay Raman Prabhu, the manager of our Temple there, and Jagannath Vallabha Prabhu who coordinates the Russian programmes. Srila Gurudev was clearly pleased by the beautiful, large Temple as well as by seeing the steady service to Sri Sri Guru-Gauranga-Radha-Madhavasundar. A special festival was held on the day of Sri Jagannath Rathayatra, as well as many formal and informal darshans by His Divine Grace. Harinam Sankirttan chanting was held daily in the local area and throughout the streets of central St. Petersburg. On each occasion the "Vijay Murti" of Mahaprabhu who came from India just now, accompanied them on His palenquin. MOSCOW In Moscow, Jagannath Vallabha Prabhu arranged a large hall in the centre of the city where programmes were held continuously from 8 a.m. to 9.30 p.m. for eight days. Srila Gurudev and all the devotees stayed in large accommodation just a few minutes walk away. Srila Govinda Maharaj reported that the sannyasis who by now additionally included Sripad Bhakti Kusum Ashram Maharaj, Sripad Bhakti Sudhir Goswami Maharaj and Sripad Bhakti Kanan Giri Maharaj, took turns to deliver lectures to the audience and chant Harinam-Sankirttan. Srila Gurudev personally gave lectures most evenings, and after returning from one such lecture he phoned to Nabadwip. He was clearly enlivened by the programmes and by the dedication of the Russian devotees. There are many success stories amongst our devotees in Russia. As well as printing around 40 different books in Russian, producing audios and videos, and developing widely the preaching field, our devotees' "Jagannath Express" Restaurant in central Moscow stands out as exceptional. It has just won the top award as the Best Vegetarian Restaurant in Moscow. It provides service for a staff of almost a hundred, many of whom are devotees, and provides a vast variety of vegetarian food in different styles, all prepared on the premises. Speaking over the phone from Vrindavan soon after returning from these special days, Srila Gurudev himself told these pastimes of the devotees, clearly with great joy. Like you, we are also eager to hear more and we look forward to the safe return of Srila Govinda Maharaj and the augmented Tour group soon. RECENT PICTURES Recent pictures received so far of this tour from London, St. Petersburg and Moscow are on our Website at: http://www.scsmath.com/new.html. For those of you with reasonably good internet connections, there are also three series of larger pictures included there (around 35K each). _________ GOVARDHAN TEMPLE DEVELOPING FAST Since the inauguration of construction just last October for Sri Giriraj at our Srila Sridhar Swami Seva Ashram, Govardhan, the Lord's Temple has been quickly manifesting around Him. The main part of the simhasan section of the construction was completed by mid June, and in order to proceed with the Nat-Mandir in time for Srila Gurudev's return, Sri Giriraj moved to His new throne on the auspicious day of Sri Jagannathdev's Rathayatra. A festival was held and many sadhus were fed to mark the occasion. Pictures of the construction taken just a week before Srila Gurudev left for his recent Tour are on the Web at: http://scsmath.com/bulletin/memories/me010528_gvrdn.html Larger pictures of the construction are available at: scsmath.com/bulletin/memories/govdn_0105fls.html _________ MORE TOURS IN 2001? We are receiving many enquiries as to Srila Govinda Maharaj's travel plans for later this year, but the word is "wait-and-see." Srila Gurudev has consistently replied to devotees' invitations and questions, that he will wait to see about his health and his service in India before making a final decision. His Divine Grace has only just returned to India, but will only consider he has completed the Tour after returning to Calcutta. So let Srila Gurudev have some time to settle in, then he shall declare his holy wish for the benefit of all. _________ NABADWIP PREPARES AS RAINS ARRIVE With our Math's Acharyya, Srila Govinda Maharaj, along with our Math's manager, Sripad Acharyya Maharaj, both abroad, the Temple devotees here in Nabadwip are all doing their extra bit to help keep everything running smoothly. Yes, the rains came on time this year, and already Mother Ganges has flooded the lower fields of the opposite village. With major flooding happening the last two years, perhaps we now have to accept annual floods as normal and no longer the exception. In preparation, the upstairs of the new goshala is now ready in case the cows need to again take shelter on higher land. _________ DISAPPEARANCE INVITATION ON WEB It is now just over two weeks before our dearmost Founder-President-Acharyya, Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Dev-Goswami Maharaj's Disappearance Festival. If an Invitation has not yet reached you, there is one waiting on our website at: scsmath.com/events/disap_invit01.html. We are all hoping Srila Govinda Maharaj will reach here by then. May this indeed be a glorious festival the world over. =========================================================== SRI CHAITANYA SARASWAT MATH'S NABADWIP NEWS BULLETIN Compiled to Russian Kirttan from the first Tour video to reach us =========================================================== Produced by Mahananda dasa Bhakti Ranjan for Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math, Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math Road, Kolerganj, P.O. Nabadwip, District Nadia, West Bengal, PIN 741302, India. Tel: (03472) 40086 & 40752. Calcutta: Tel: (033) 551 9175. E-mail: info@scsmath.com Website: http://scsmath.com ======================================================== All glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga INVITATION to the DISAPPEARANCE FESTIVAL 2001 of Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Dev-Goswami Maharaj Honorable Vaishnavas, Godbrothers, Godsisters, Devotees and Friends: Please accept our humble obeisances. We, the Members and Devotees of Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math under the divine guidance of our Sevaite-President-Acharyya, His Divine Grace Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev-Goswami Maharaj, are humbly inviting your respected selves along with your associates and families for the Annual Disappearance Festival of our most beloved Srila Guru Maharaj, Om Nitya-Lila Pravista Paramahamsa Churamani Sri Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Dev-Goswami Visnupad. The festival will be held this year on FRIDAY 20TH JULY, at the dearmost place of his Divine Pastimes, SRI CHAITANYA SARASWAT MATH, NABADWIP DHAM, in the presence of the glorious Vaishnava Godbrothers of Srila Guru Maharaj, along with Devotees of our International Mission from around the world. On this occasion in our Math we shall arrange a grand festival for the special worship, and chanting of Srila Sridhar Dev-Goswami Maharaj's divine glories, as well as Kirttan, special worship of the Temple Deities Sri Sri Guru Gauranga Gandharva Govindasundar, Laksmi-Varahadev, Sri Gopaljiu and Giridharijiu, distribution of opulent Mahaprasadam, and many other devotional activities in the association of honourable Vaishnavas. We shall be very pleased to have your holy presence and your participation in this auspicious occasion which is most conducive for pure devotion. Yours in the service of the Divine Master, MEMBERS OF THE MATH Dated: 1st July, 2001. Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math, Kolerganj, P.O. Nabadwip, Pin 741302, Dt. Nadia, W.B., India. ______ SERVICE OPPORTUNITY Kindly do the needful to publicize within your communities this forthcoming Festival, and to encourage the giving of service donations to His Divine Grace Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev-Goswami Maharaj for this auspicious occasion. If the Main Centres and Branches, also individuals, can coordinate a special collection for this occasion it will be greatly appreciated by His Divine Grace. Service contributions may be made by check, bank transfer, etc. For details please refer to our webpage: scsmath.com/events/service.html. If sending funds, kindly inform us so we can confirm their safe arrival. May this be a glorious festival all over the world. ______

Not at all. I doubt that Shivu is clapping his hands for anyone who is channeling lost Tamil texts from the lost continent of Lemuria; certainly I am not. As I said, this is a time-honored tradition in India and one has to be aware of it. The Mahayana Buddhists "discovered" lost Buddhist scriptures that justified their doctrines. <blockquote> "...the Hinayana followers charge that the Mahayana is based on sutras which are not the words of the Buddha, but on the works of later followers. To this charge, the Mahayanists reply that the Buddha preached on two levels. To those who were not learned and ill-equipped to understand the message, he preached the simple Hinayana sutras, but to those who were wise and advanced, he preached the profound and abstruse Mahayana sutras. These were transmitted by the elite disciples from generation to generation by word of mouth until they blossomed forth in the Mahayana sutras of a later age." (K.S. Chen, Buddhism, the Light of Asia.</blockquote> <blockquote>"An alternative explanation recorded by Buddhist historians [Taranath] was that though the Buddha had taught them, they were not in circulation in the world of men at all for many centuries, there being no competent teachers and no intelligent students; the sutras were however preserved in the Dragon World and other non-human circles, and when in the 2nd century A.D. adequate teachers suddenly appeared in India in large numbers, the texts were fetched and circulated." (A. K. Warder, Indian Buddhism, p. 352.)</blockquote> Haribol, Jagat

Puru's post and my own went up at more or less the same time. East is East and West is West! We can discuss the question of what constitutes "blind following" and what "absurd inquiries" along the lines of inquiry found in the "Tao of Krishna Consciousness" thread. But is seems to me, Puru Prabhu, that as soon as we say "This is samadhi labdha truth that can't be questioned," we have fallen into the realm of blind following. I mean, is not the a priori acceptance of someone as infallible the same thing as poking one's own rational eyes out? Just think: the Pope is, according to Roman Catholic dogma, infallible. Yet he has apologized to the world for the errors that his infallible predecessors made. Now there's a conundrum for you. You and I have gone through the infallibility question before, Puru Prabhu, and I am not really enthusiastic about going another round, but as I recall, we always come to one point of agreement, that Prabhupada was not infallible. He was capable of making mistakes of varying degrees of severity. We must now go on to examine and accept the implications of that fallibility.

Actually, I am glad you made this post so I could agree with it pretty much totally. I get nervous when I am too radical -- I don't want to make any more enemies than I already have. The guru -- <ul>[*]instills faith [*]teaches a spiritual discipline Faith is not logical, as I pointed out on the Tao thread. But it is still our most significant possession. It could and should guide our lives, because it can be the most enriching thing we have. For this reason, the Guru is seen as God. But the analogy of a parent is very good. Is the adult's relationship with his parents the same as it was when he was a baby? Anyway, Mahaksaji, thanks for saving me again from myself. Not that it will keep all the wolves at bay, it just lets me know that I have some breathing room. Jagat

This is all very circular. You know very well,Mahaksha, that from the very first time I raised this issue on Garuda Express, I explained papal infallibility and ex camera, etc. If we agree that guru infallibility is restricted, then it is our responsibility to determine what the limits of that infallibility are. As I said in my earlier post, if I say, "I am not infallible, but everything I say is infallible," then it comes to the same thing, doesn't it? If my parAtpara-gurudeva put a cat under a basket at my initiation ceremony, does that mean henceforward cats must always be put under baskets whenever there is an initiation ceremony? There are so many examples of such things, but they indicate that a tradition stagnates as soon as we become excessively attached to the statements of the predecessor acharyas without understanding. For instance, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and BHaktivinoda Thakur made many statements about Vaishnava history, for instance, the identity of Prabodhananda Saraswati. They come to a particular conclusion that is shown very clearly by historical evidence to be erroneous. Are we allowed to examine the evidence and come to our own conclusions? Or must we "ask submissively with respect" with the predetermined conclusion that whatever the "authority" says must be accepted as correct? Am I allowed to say the following: "My spiritual master told me that things are like this. But he was not aware of the evidence that you have presented me. Looking at the evidence, I have to agree with you that his conclusion was erroneous."? There are two realms - that of faith and that of reason. Do the same rules apply to both these realms?

<center>LESSON THREE</center> <font color=#FF00FF>For July 7, 2001. Three interesting new things come up in this verse. One is feminine nouns, the second is the genitive case, the third is the instrumental case.. A number of different declensions also appear.<hr></font> <center>pazyaitAM pANDu-putrANAm AcArya mahatIM camUm | vyUDhAM drupada-putreNa tava ziSyeNa dhImatA ||3||</center> ANVAYA: AcArya! pANDu-putrANAm mahatIm camUm etAm tava dhImatA ziSyeNa drupada-putreNa vyUDhAM pazya. GRAMMATICAL COMMENTS: <font color=#5F9F9F>1. AcArya. This is the easiest case to learn – the vocative. When the noun ends in -a, as it does here, then one leaves the noun in its root form. You often see an exclamation point after the vocative, even in devanagari texts. he kRSNa!. 2. pANDu-putrANAm. Two things to note here: (a) This is a very simple type of compound word called a SaSThI-tat-puruSa. The translation makes it clear what that means: “the sons (putra) of Pandu.” It works something like “John-son.” SaSThI means “sixth,” here it refers to the sixth case-ending, which is the genitive, or possessive case. (b) The -nAm ending is most often a genitive plural. Depending on the kind of declension, it will appear somewhat differently. In the declensions of nouns ending in -a, as here, it will be -AnAm. ”of the sons of Pandu”. NOTE: The n is N because of an internal sandhi rule: after r, R or S, n becomes N. 3. Now we get a list of accusatives, a demonstrative adjective, an adjective and a noun. Putting them in the order they would most likely appear to us in English: etAm mahatIm camUm “this great phalanx.” Notice that though all of them end in different long vowels -- A, I, U, they all have the accusative marker A, I, U. In 95% of cases, this holds true. There are very few feminine nouns ending in U, so you are lucky to have met one so soon in your Sanskrit career, camU. etAm, “this”, like tAm, “that,” can be used either as a demonstrative adjective when used with a noun, or as a pronoun when standing by itself. The nominative forms are eSA and sA. 4. vyUDhAm, which we already saw in the previous verse, is being used here as a passive participle, “arranged.” It agrees with camUm, so even though it has been separated a little by the syntax, it is still connected grammatically. 5. Now tava dhImatA ziSyeNa drupada-putreNa tells us who has arranged the phalanx. The phrase is in the instrumental case. That tells you “by [whom or what]” or “with [whom or what].” So we have ”by your intelligent disciple, the son of Drupada.” -ena is the customary inflection of the instrumental case for masculine and neuter nouns ending in -a. (The sandhi rule mentioned above explains why it’s putreNa). dhImatA, as you have probably guessed, belongs to a different declension, one that is pretty popular. It is related to mahatI also found in this verse. These are nouns and adjectives ending in -ant, but they are more familiar in their nominative singular form, like bhagavAn, dhImAn, mahAn, etc. 6. So only one more word,pazya, which is an imperative form. This is the simplest form of the verb, an order. “Look!”</font> Oh Acharya! Look at this phalanx of the sons of Pandu, arranged by your intelligent disciple, the son of Drupada. And we all know why Duryodhan called him intelligent. He’s trying to egg Dronacharya on.

Ok. Looks like that does it. Thank you very much, Prabhu.

<center><table border=5><font size=-2><tr><td>Adverb<td>Time<td>Place<td>Manner</tr><tr><td>interrog.<td>kadA <td>kutra <td>katham <td> </tr><tr><td>trans..<td>when?<td>where?<td>how?<td></tr> <tr><td>relative <td>yadA<td>yatra<td>yathA<td></tr> <tr><td>trans.<td>when<td>where<td>as<td></tr><tr><td>correlative <td>tadA <td>tatra <td>tathA </tr> <tr> <td>trans. <td>then <td>there <td>so <td> </tr> <tr> <td>universal <td> sadA <td>sarvatra <td>sarvathA </tr> <tr> <td>interrog. <td>always <td>everywhere <td>in every way <td> </tr></table> </center></font>

Could anyone explain to me why a space of several lines precedes the table that I put in this last document, and why the font size changed? Thanks.

<center>LESSON TWO</center> <hr><font color=#FF00FF>For July 6, 2001.</font><hr> <center>dRSTvA tu pANDavAnIkaM vyUDhaM duryodhanas tadA AcAryam upasaMgamya rAjA vacanam abravIt</center> ANVAYA: tadA tu rAjA duryodhanaH pANDavAnIkam vyUDham dRSTvA, AcAryam upasaMgamya, vacanam abravIt. GRAMMATICAL COMMENTS <font color=#5F9F9F> 1. tadA means “then.” <center><table border=5><font size=-2><tr><td>Adverb<td>Time<td>Place<td>Manner</tr><tr><td>interrog.<td>kadA <td>kutra <td>katham <td> </tr><tr><td>trans..<td>when?<td>where?<td>how?<td></tr> <tr><td>relative <td>yadA<td>yatra<td>yathA<td></tr> <tr><td>trans.<td>when<td>where<td>as<td></tr><tr><td>correlative <td>tadA <td>tatra <td>tathA </tr> <tr> <td>trans. <td>then <td>there <td>so <td> </tr> <tr> <td>universal <td> sadA <td>sarvatra <td>sarvathA </tr> <tr> <td>interrog. <td>always <td>everywhere <td>in every way <td> </tr></table> </center></font> The same pattern is found in pronouns, as you will see. Doubling the relative pronoun adds an “ever.” yadA yadA “whenever”; yatra yatra “wherever,” etc. 2. rAjA duryodhanaH “King Duryodhana.” The -aH is, as we have already seen, the nominative masculine ending. Duryodhana is the subject of this sentence. rAjA is the nominative of rAjan. There are a few words that decline in the same way, like Atman, which has AtmA as its nominative form. 3. pANDavAnIkaM vyUDham. vyUDham is a <u>passive</u> past participle, “arranged (in battle formation).” It has the same root as the noun vyUha as in catur-vyUha. These words are the object of the first verb in the sentence. 4. dRSTvA “having seen.” This is our first encounter with the gerund. This is a very important element in Sanskrit syntax. Sanskrit doesn’t use verbs the way we do in English, nor do most other Indian languages, which follow the Sanskrit model. In English, we will use two finite verbs in the same sentence and join them with “and.” “I ate and ran.” In Sanskrit, we would say “Having eaten, I ran.” khAditvA gataH. Gerunds are pretty simple. They end in -tvA if they have no prefix, and -ya if they have one. upasaMgamya is of the latter kind. upa + saM + /gam + ya. gam is the basic verb root, “to go.” This is a very important verb. “upa” indicates closeness, “sam” together. So it means “coming up to” or “meeting.” AcAryam again is the object. 5. vacanam. “word or statement.” This is the object of the verb that follows. It is a neuter noun, but when they end in -a, singular neuter and masculine nouns are exactly the same. They are only different in the nominative. 6. abravIt “he spoke,” is another verb in the imperfect tense. It has that a marker before the root, like in akurvata. This is another fairly irregular verb, so I won’t get into it here. This is in the active voice. </font> So, King Duryodhan, saw the Pandava army arranged in battle formation, he went to Dronacharya, and said (this) statement. <small><font color=#f7f7f7> [This message has been edited by Jagat (edited 07-07-2001).]

<font color=#FF00FF>Since we started on the Gita, I thought I would go through the Bhagavad Gita for Sanskrit beginners. Please give some feedback. I don't know if we'll get through the entire Gita, but a chapter or two will get us through a lot of the basics. I think we can have a test every Sunday or something.<hr></font> <center>dharma-kSetre kuru-kSetre samavetA yuyutsavaH mAmakAH pANDavAz caiva kim akurvata saMjaya</center> ANVAYA: saMjaya, yuyutsavaH mAmakAH pANDavAH ca eva dharma-kSetre kuru-kSetre samavetAH kim akurvata? Sanjaya, desiring to fight my sons and the Pandavas assembled on the religious field of Kurukshetra. What did they do? GRAMMATICAL COMMENTS: Since I am assuming that most people will be beginners, I will give detailed notes. At the beginning, this may be quite extensive. As we go along, we will be trying to avoid repetition. <font color=#5F9F9F>1. yuyutsavaH. There are many kinds of declension in Sanskrit. Usually you are obliged to memorize these. You are welcome to do so and if you want to follow this, then keep your declension tables at hand. What we have here is the nominative plural of a masculine adjective ending in –u, yuyutsu. There are many nouns that follow this declension, starting with viSNu, etc. Yuyutsu is interesting because it is derived from the root /yudh meaning “to fight.” It comes from the desiderative form of the verb. You are probably familiar with mumukSu “desiring liberation,” or bubhukSu “desiring to enjoy,” or zuzrUSu, “desiring to hear” (also “desiring to serve”). 2. mAmakAH and pANDavAH are also nominative plurals of masculine nouns ending in –a. This is the most common declension and more than half of all nouns follow this system. So this declension should definitely be memorized. (I will give the full declension later.) yuyutsavaH is an adjective describing these two nouns. “My sons and the Pandavas want to fight.” 3. dharma-kSetre kuru-kSetre. Masculine AND neuter nouns ending in –a share most of the same conjugation. Here we have the locative case, which as its name shows, indicates location, “in” or “at.” kSetra is neuter, as you can see in chapter 13, the nominative singular is kSetram. 4. samavetAH is also an adjective agreeing with the two nouns. Now this is also derived from a verb. It is a very important form called the past participle. In Sanskrit, we can often avoid using a finite verb (i.e., one that is conjugated) by using a declined verb form that agrees with the noun. What is interesting about past participles is that they are usually passive, but are sometimes used actively, like here, and with other verbs meaning “to go” and their derivatives. The verb root here is /i, “to go.” The actual p.p. is itaH. Here the prefixes “sam” and “ava” have been added to make samaveta. The prefix sam as you probably know, often means “together” as in <u>saM</u>-kIrtanam. 5. kim “what?”. This is an interrogative pronoun in the neuter gender. These pronouns have a special kind of declension that is similar in part to the nouns ending in –a. tataH kim “What next?” They can stand by themselves, or modify a noun. e.g. kiM kSetram “What (or which) field?” 6. akurvata “did”. This is a not very common form of the verb kR meaning “to do.” This is one of the most important verbs in Sanskrit, and though it follows a not very common conjugation, it should eventually be learned. It is in the imperfect (past) tense, third person plural, middle voice (Atmanepada). This is just to introduce the terms. I will explain them later.<small><font color=#f7f7f7>

<center>mahAn prabhur vai puruSaH sattvasyaiSa pravartakaH sunirmalAm imAM prAptim IzAno jyotir avyayaH</center> First of all, Upanishadic Sanskrit is not always purely classical in form. The Svetasvatara is a late, classical Upanishad. There are 11 major Upanishads, but their language is quite different. The Brihad Aranyaka and Chandogya have the most archaic language, being somewhere between classical and pure Vedic and closer to the language found in the Brahmanas, which are considered to be the first set of scriptures that followed the Vedas themselves. But one of the things that can be observed in all the Upanishads is that sometimes a purely correct grammatical reading is impossible. That will be shown in these verses. Second, this verse has to be read in context, because both the one preceding it and the one following it are thematically connected and consist mostly of nominatives. <hr><font color=#669999>Nominative is the "subject" case. The subject of a sentence is always in the nominative. Words in apposition to the subject are also put in the nominative. -- "He is a boy." saH bAlakaH. -- "She is a girl." sA bAlikA -- "It is a mountain." tat parvatam <hr></font> The first verse -- <center>sarvAnana-ziro-grIvaH sarva-bhUta-guhAzayaH sarva-vyApI sa bhagavAn tasmAt sarva-gataH zivaH </center> ANVAYAH: <font color=#666666>sa bhagavAn sarvAnana-ziro-grIvaH sarva-bhUta-guhAzayaH sarva-vyApI. tasmAt zivaH sarva-gataH</font> "That Lord [is possessed of] all face-head-neck, [is] hidden in the cave (heart) of every living being; [is] all-pervading. Therefore Shiva is all pervading." GRAMMAR COMMENTS: <font color=#9999FF>There are different classes of compound word in Sanskrit. Most of them are pretty straightforward, so it is not really necessary to give a complicated explanation. But there is one kind, called bahu-vrIhi that is found here: "sarvAnana-ziro-grIvaH", which carries the idea "one who possesses or has all these things." Krishna is called pItAmbara, "yellow-dress" because he wears a yellow cloth.</font> So right away in this verse, we see that the name of Shiva has been found. The Svetasvatara Upanishad has several references to Shiva and none to Vishnu. So though it is a real favorite of theists (it is the most overtly theistic Upanishad), it is not at all Vaishnava in mood. The following verse also has a common name used for Shiva, IzAnaH. <center>mahAn prabhur vai puruSaH sattvasyaiSa pravartakaH sunirmalAm imAM prAptim IzAno jyotir avyayaH</center> ANVAYAH: <font color=#969696>eSaH mahAn prabhuH vai puruSaH IzAnaH jyotiH avyayaH sunirmalAm imAm prAptim [prati] sattvasya pravartakaH </font> <font color=#9999FF>Usually what happens when we do the anvaya is to group the words in the different cases together. You have to be somewhat careful, but certainly when the Sanskrit is simple, it works. Here we have many nominatives, so I have just grouped them at the beginning of the sentence.</font> "This (eSaH) great (mahAn) master (prabhuH) [is] certainly (vai) the soul/spirit (puruSaH), the controller (IzAnaH - also a name of Shiva), the imperishable light (jyotir avyayaH). He is the director (pravartakaH) of existence (sattvasya) towards (prati) this (imAm) most pure (sunirmalAm) attainment (prAptim). GRAMMAR COMMENTS: <font color=#9999FF>sattvasya is in the genitive case, the possessive, which basically translates as "of." pravartakaH is connected to pravRtti in the Gita verse we had earlier. Nouns that have "ka" at the end are usually (not always) some kind of agent noun. Someone or something that does something. So here it is "one who engages us or makes us act." (The "us" is understood.) The word prati, "towards," is supplied by the commentators. What justifies this addition? Well we have a problem. We have a phrase in the accusative without any verb or preposition governing the accusative case. The best we can do is say that God is engaging our being (sattva) and directing it towards "this" most pure attainment.</font> CONCLUSION: Certainly the words mahAn prabhuH, though evocative of our beloved Mahaprabhu, hardly justify our interpreting this verse as being a predictor of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Indeed, a straightforward reading leads us to confirm that Shaivaite theists wrote this in glorification of their iSTa-devatA. Sorry if that was a bit dense. Please let me know if this is at all helpful to anyone. If it is not, then I will desist.

<font color=#0000FF>I have just decided to copy the Bhagavad-gita verses I went through here into a separate thread. I hope that's OK, JN Prabhu.</font><hr> <center>kAlo'smi loka-kSaya-kRt pravRddho lokAn samAhartum iha pravRttaH Rte'pi tvAM na bhaviSyanti sarve ye'vasthitAH pratyanIkeSu yodhAH</center> I will start by putting the text into proper Sanskrit prose word order (subject-object-verb) and taking the sandhi out. This is called "anvayaH" or putting things in order. <hr> 1. (aham) loka-kSaya-kRt pravRddhaH kAlaH asmi. "I am (aham asmi) time, which is the destroyer of worlds and has grown mature (pravRddhaH)." These two adjectives, loka-kSaya-kRt and pravRddhaH, as well as pravRttaH at the end of the second line, are all in the masculine nominative case, because they have to agree with the noun they modify, kAlaH. (If anyone has a problem with the idea of gender or adjective-noun agreement, let me know.) Different commentaries have different understandings of pravRddhaH. Basically it means "(much) increased" or "(very) mature", like vRddha means old. It would appear to mean "ripe" as in "the time is ripe" for all good karma to come to fruition. 2. lokAn samAhartum iha pravRttaH iha here. pravRttaH means "taking up an action." It comes from the same place as pravRtti in pravRtti-mArga. Taking up what? You need an infinitive, so samAhartum, "to completely take away." Basically, "destroy" is good. This is what saMhAra means, which is used in creation, maintenance and destruction. (vizva-saMhAra means destruction of the universe.) The extra "A" doesn't change this meaning. lokAn is the accusative plural of "worlds." That is what is being destroyed. 3. Rte'pi tvAM na bhaviSyanti sarve ye'vasthitAH pratyanIkeSu yodhAH ye yodhAH pratyanIkeSu avasthitAH [te] sarve na bhaviSyanti tvAM Rte api "All the soldiers (yodhAH) who (ye) are standing (avasthitAH) in the opposing armies (pratyanIkeSu), they (te) all ((sarve) will not be (na bhaviSyanti), except for you alone (tvAM Rte'pi)."

I would guess that it is derived from Arabic amr, from which comes the word amIr and its contracted form mIr, which was a fairly popular name for Indian Muslim males (Mir Qasam, etc.). The feminine form mIrA would be a purely local creation. amIr means "noble, prince, lord, person of rank or distinction," etc. (Cf. Platts Classical Urdu dictionary). Platts gives the derivation of bAI as coming from bhavatI, the Sanskrit polite form of address to a woman. Unfortunately nowadays, the term is somewhat pejorative ("dancing girl, harlot"), especially as bAI-jI.

I have already exceeded my allotted time for Internet discussions, probably done a month's worth in the last three days, but I would like to add one other comment. I am very much in favor of the idea of progressive spiritual understanding. I don't know why, if as individuals our spiritual understanding can evolve, that as a sampradaya we cannot evolve in the same way. This, to me, is accepted in the Gita's yadA yadA hi dharmasya glAnir verse. From the point of view of comparative religion, theisms generally seem more open to accepting linear history, rather than circular. Although Krishna consciousness would never adopt a purely linear model of history (as in Christianity), one that allows for every individual to be a conduit for revelation would perhaps allow a new dynamism to enter the movement. There is surely a way that tradition and progress can be reconciled. Your servant, Jagadananda.