ancient_paztriot

(Can't spell the title) First time I thought of it! You ask… "I am wondering what the better half of man's body might be that woman was made from." How about the emotions? They are better in tune with the emotions? Affairs of the heart? Swayed by passions? Hey, they're great at nourturing! Later… Actually, I have thought of it before. Many times. Just the subject of women makes me loose my mind!

I couldn't help but think how if someone is stuck on a bed without moving they get bedsores. And if the body can't move much over time… nature will just kill it. Play dead? …Might as well be dead… nature thinks. Now think of all that forced confinement and bodily poisons and atrophy and so many things… chemicals… AND they think it's KOSHER… No… a DELICACY (yum). I think they're just BIG buzzards!

From memory… It really works both ways very well… women crazy about men or men crazy about women. They may not necessarily have the "same" motives, but it is sill based on exploitation and DESIRE… mutual that is.

Alot of this is great stuff! Don't be so scarce. This board needs a little sanity around here. I feel better knowing you and Babhru are around… and Theist. (Now if only you guys can make it to my death. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I'd feel safer in passing!)

I think the "New World Order" is about to get their hairy _sses kicked… forced off their artificial thrones! I can just about do that myself. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

"Our whimsical participation in the mtter is not reqired or desired." And it can be dangerous by association. That's why I don't read most of these people. I don't feel it's supportive.

Syamasundara dasa: Leibnitz was a German mathematician and philosopher who maintained that in the universe, every act has a purpose, and the purpose of the universe is to realize the goal set forth by God. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, actually the goal is to reach God. the ignorant do not know this. Instead, they are hoping for something that can never be realized. this is the version of Srimad-Bhagavatam: na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah andha yathandhair upaniyamanas te ’pisa-tantryam uru-damni baddhah “Persons who are strongly entrapped by the consciousness of enjoying material life, and who have therefore accepted as their leader or guru a similar blind man attached to external sense objects, cannot understand that the goal of life is to return home, back to Godhead, and engage in the service of Lord Visnu. As blind men guided by another blind man miss the right path and fall into a ditch, materially attached men led by another materially attached man are bound by the ropes of fruitive labor, which are made of very strong cords, and they continue again and again in materialistic life, suffering the threefold miseries.” (Bhag. 7.5.31) throughout history, people have been trying to adjust situations by manipulating the material, external energy, but they do not know that they are bound fast by the laws of material nature. No one can violate the laws of nature. As Caitanya Mahaprabhu explained: krsna bhuli’ sei jiva anadi-bahirmukha ataeva maya tare deya samsara-duhkha “Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore the illusory energy [maya] gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence.” (Caitanya-caritamrta, Madh. 20.117) Maya, the illusory energy, ties the living entity by his neck, just as on ties a dog. The dog thinks, “I am very happy and free. My master is controlling me.” In Bhagavad-gita it is also stated: prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah aha¥kara-vimuòhatma kartaham iti manyate “The spirit soul bewildered by the influence of false ego thinks himself the doer of activities that are in actuality carried out by the three modes of material nature.” (Bg. 3.27) Prakrti, material nature, is controlling the living entity by her different modes, but in ignorance the living entity is thinking, “I am inventing, I am acting, I am progressing.” This is called maya, illusion. No one can progress or improve without Krsna consciousness. The living entities have come into this material world because they want to imitate Krsna. Therefore they have been given a chance to engage in so-called enjoyment. At the same time, Krsna is so kind that He has given them the Vedas, the right directions. He says, “All right, if you want to enjoy, enjoy in this way so that one day you may come back to Me.” If a child insists on acting improperly, the father may be very careful in giving him what he wants, and at the same time directing him. There are two kinds of activities. One is pravrtti, by which we become very much attached to the material world. By the other type of activity, nivrtti, we become detached. Both activities are mentioned in the Vedas. However, there is a plan. Because the living entities have forgetten or disobeyed Krsna and are trying to enjoy life by imitating Him, they are placed into this material world. Under the supervision of the superintendent of this material world, Durga, these living entities can return home, back to Godhead. That is the plan, and tere is really no other. Every one of us has to go back home, back to Godhead. If we do so immediately and voluntarily, we save time; otherwise we waste time. We have to come to this point. Therefore Bhagavad-gita says: bahunam janmanam ante (Bg. 7.19) After struggling for many births, the wise man surrenders unto Krsna. The final point is surrender, and maya gives the living entity trouble in many different ways so that he will eventually come to this point. When he becomes frustrated in his attempts at sense gratification, it should be understood that he is receiving special favor. When Krsna is anxious to reform the living entitiy, He bestows His mercy by first of all taking away all his money. This is a special favor. The living entitiy always wants to delay, but by special favor Krsna draws the living entity to Him by force. This is explained in Caitanya-caritamrta. The living entity wants Krsna, or God, but at the same time he wants to enjoy the material world. This is inconsistent, because desiring God means rejecting the material world. Sometimes the living entity is caught between these two desires, and when Krsna sees this, He places him in a hopeless condition. he takes away all his money, and then the living entity sees that all his so-called relatives and friends turn from him, saying, “Oh, this man is useless. He has no money.” In this hopeless condition, the living entity surrenders to Krsna. All beings are trying to be happy in this material world, but it is nature’s plan to give them trouble. In other words, every attempt at happiness will be frustrated so that eventually the living entitiy will turn to Krsna. This is the plan: to bring the living entitiy back home, back to Godhead. This plan does not apply to just a few living entitites. It is not that some will remain here and others will go back to Godhead. No, the whole plan is that everyone must come back to Godhead. Some living entities are very obstinate, just like bad boys. the father says, “Come on,” but the boy says, “No, I’ll not go.” It is then the father’s business to drag him. At the end of Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says: sarva-guhyatamam bhuyah srnu me paramam vacah isto ’si me dròham iti tato vaksyami te hitam “Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you the most confidential part of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit.” (Bg. 18.64) Then He says, “Surrender unto Me, and I will give you all protection.” (Bg. 18.66) In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna instructed Arjuna in karma-yoga, jnana-yoga, and other yogas, but His final instruction was to surrender.

Woah, I was reading through your post and just jolted at this… "Without His direction he cannot act." … but too deep to penetrate. There's very few people I read here these days. But I always like your posts. (Would like to hear more from Stonehearted and Gauracandra).

You advised me on puss in milk a while back. I've been drinking "organic milk" since.

Ditto that. What would we know without Prabhupada's efforts (And those before him)? Guru is teacher. Do away with the teacher?

Hayagriva dasa: Pascal writes: “If we submit everything to reason, our religion will have no mysterious and supernatural element. If we offend the principles of reason, our religion will be absurd and ridiculous.” Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is a fact. The orders of God constitute religion, and if we carry out these orders, we are religious. Paeudo-religions, religions that cheat, are condemned in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Any religious system which has no conception of God and which annually changes its resolutions is not a religion but a farce. And the government; how many crazy laws everyday?

Hayagriva dasa: Pascal ascribed to the doctrine of original sin, which holds that at one time man fell from grace by committing some sin or other, and this fall from grace accounts for his present position between the angels and the beasts. In other words, original sin accounts for man’s encagement in matter. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, this is also our philosophy. Hayagriva dasa: What was this original sin? Srila Prabhupada: Disobedience––refusing to serve Krsna. Sometimes a servant thinks, “Why am I serving this master? I myself must become a master.” The living entity is eternally part and parcel of God, and his duty is to serve God. When he thinks, “Why should I serve God? I shall enjoy myself instead,” he brings about his downfall. Original sin means refusing to serve God and attempting instead to become God. Mayavadis, for instance, are still attempting to become God, despite their knowledge and philosophy. If by meditation or some material effort, we can become God, what is the meaning of God? It is not possible for man to become God. The attempt to become God is the original sin, the beginning of sinful life. Hayagriva dasa: Pascal believed that it is impossible for man to understand the universe or his position in it. We cannot look for certainty or stability in the material world because our reasoning powers are always being deceived. Therefore man must surrender to the dictates of his heart and to God. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is our position. We are not depending on the heart, however, because the dictations of the heart are not appreciated by nondevotees. Distinct instructions are given in Bhagavad-gita and explained by the spiritual master. If we take the advice of God and His representative, we will not be misled. Hayagriva dasa: Of all things in the world, Pascal considered this to be the strangest: “A man spends many days and nights in rage and despair over the loss of his job or for some imaginary insult to his honor, yet he does not consider with anxiety and emotion that he will lose everything by death. It is a monstrous thing to see in the same heart and at the same time this sensibility to trifles and this strange insensibility to the greatest object (death). It is an incomprehensible enchantment, and a supernatural slumber, which indicates as its cause an all-powerful force.” Srila Prabhupada: Yes, according to Bhagavad-gita, when one does not believe in God, or when one disobeys God’s orders, God comes as death. Then all power, pride, imagination, and plans are broken. After this, one may attain the body of an animal because in his life he acted like an animal. This is the process of transmigration. This is suffering.

Syamasundara dasa: Yes, and this was Descartes’s problem. He could not understand how spirit and matter interact, how the nondimensional, nonextended spirit can have a three dimensional body. Srila Prabhupada: When you are on the land and fall into the water, your struggle begins. This means that on land you are safe, but somehow or other you have fallen into this material struggle. Spirit is spirit, and matter is matter, but now they have come into contact with one another. We have caused this contact because we have misused our independence. A boy may stand firmly beside the water, but if he wants to enjoy the water, he may fall in. If he cannot manage to swim, he is lost. This is our position. The spirit soul has a body, and his business is to enjoy life, but because he falls within the jurisdiction of matter, he cannot enjoy his labor. As long as he is within water, there is no possibility of happiness. Syamasundara dasa: Does the spiritual body have dimensions? Does it exist in space? Srila Prabhupada: Yes, it has dimensions. It has length, bredth, and everything. Otherwise, how can we say that it is one ten-thousandth of the tip of a hair? In other words, there is measurement, but that measurement is beyondf our imagination. The soul is something different. It is inconceivable. If the spirit soul has no body, how can the material body develop? A material body is like a coat molded in the form of the spiritual body. You cannot make a dress without measuring the body. Syamasundara dasa: Then the spiritual body is very small? Srila Prabhupada: You cannot image it. Because the materialists cannot see or measure the spiritual body, they say that it does not exist. Syamasundara dasa: Descartes says that the soul exists, but not that it occupies space. Srila Prabhupada: This means that his conceptin of space is limited. The material body is a body that has a beginning and an end. Your coat is made at a certain date. The spiritual body is changing dress from one material body to another, just as you change your clothes. Syamasundara dasa: After the soul has fallen into matter, can it be delivered through proper knowledge? Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is the purpose of this Krsna consciousness movement. Even if a person is an expert swimmer, how long can he swim? He will eventually succumb because he is in a fallen condition. However, if one is elevated just one inch above the water, he is immediately safe. The water may remain in its position, but he is transcendental to it. This transcendental position is Krsna consciousness. Syamasundara dasa: In other words, the spirit soul can rise above matter, above the water. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, just like a flying fish. This fish may swim within the water, but suddenly he may fly over it. As soon as you become Krsna conscious, you can fly over the water of material existence. Then you can gradually come to land. Syamasundara dasa: If the spirit soul is unlimited and has unlimited power, how does he fall within matter? Srila Prabhupada: It does not have unlimited power. Its power is so great that in the material sense it is unlimited, but actually it is nt unlimited. Syamasundara dasa: How is it able to be confined by something as limited as a body? Srila Prabhupada: I have already explained this. It is like falling into the water. As spirit soul, we have nothing to do with this material body, but somehow or other we have come into contact with it. There is a cause, but instead of finding out this cause, we should realize that we are in a dangerous position. Syamasundara dasa: But if the spirit has great power, and the body has limited power, how is it that this limited power is able to hold onto the great power, to capture it and keep it? Srila Prabhupada: The material energy is Krsna’s energy, and each and every energy of Krsna is as great as Krsna. Therefore Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita: daivi hy esa guna-mayi mama maya duratyaya mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te “This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.” (Bg. 7.14) Syamasundara dasa: In other words, it is sometimes stronger than the spiritual energy? Srila Prabhupada: When you come into contact with the material energy without a specific purpose, it is stronger. Krsna’s representative comes into the material energy in order to preach. Although he is within the material energy, he is not under its control. But if you come in contact with material energy without serving Krsna’s purpose, you suffer. For instance, in a jail ther are may superintendents and government officials. There are also prisoners. However, their conditions differ. We cannot say that because they are all in jail that they are all suffering in the same way. The superintendent is there because he is serving the government’s purpose. Therefore he is not subject to the laws of the jail. when you are in the serive of Krsna, you are no longer under the laws of maya. You are liberated. Syamasundara dasa: So the prisoners who have forgotten their real service have been weakened? Srila Prabhupada: Yes, beause they have disobeyed and have forgotten their subordinate position. They want to be independent of the state, and therefore they have been put into jail. Syamasundara dasa: Then for them, the material energy is stronger. Srila Prabhupada: Yes. It is stronger for them. Those who are conditioned and are serving the material energy cannot escape through their own endeavor. They are dependent on the mercy of Krsna and His representatives.

I'd just like to say thanks again for the "whole" milk. It makes all the difference in the world.

Syamasundara dasa: Descartes considered these practical rules for daily conduct. He also believed that we should stand by the convictions we have formed and be resolute in the course of action we have chosen. Srila Prabhupada: This could also be a dog’s obstinacy. However, if our final conclusion is true, then this obstinacy is nice. But if we have not reached the final goal, the Absolute Truth, such obstinacy is an impediment to advancement. This should not be generally applied because in the neophyte stage, we must be flexible. In the advanced stage, when we are firmly situated in truth, it is, of course, good to stand by our convictions. That is determination. For instance, we have understood that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. No one can change us in this conviction. In the Christian system, they say that only Jesus Christ can help one go back to Godhead. That was meant for those whom Jesus Christ instructed because Jesus Christ saw that if the people left him, they would go to ruination. He saw that these inferior people had to stick to him in order to progress. Lord buddha rejected the Vedas, but this does not mean that Vedic authority is diminished. The men to whom he spoke were not able to understand the authority of the Vedas, and they were misusing the Vedic rituals. This is all relative truth, but Absolute Truth is different. Relative truth is within Absolute Truth, but Absolute Truth is independent of relative truth.

Syamasundara dasa: Hobbes contends that in the natural state, man is like all other animals. Might makes right, and the strongest always prevail. Therefore it is necessary that man form a social contract and volunteer to restrict natural liberties fo the sake of self-preservation. Srila Prabhupada: That is not natural liberty but ghostly liberty. There are many haunted people, and in their unnatural condition they are falsely thinking, “I am God.” The natural condition is to think, “I am God’s servant.” Any condition devoid of Krsna consciousness is unnatural. Krsna is the supreme, and I am His subordinate. My business is to render service unto Him. This is the natural position. Syamasundara dasa: Yet when men group together in a society to preserve themselves, they make a contract to the effect that they will not kill one another. Srila Prabhupada: Why not a group of asses? What is their utility? Do you mean to say that because a group of asses congregate that some good will come of it? Those rogues are always making contracts after a big war. After World War I, they made a contract through the League of Nations, and that failed. Then they had a second World War, and they formed the United Nations and made more contracts. Eventually that will all be dissolved again. These contracts and compromises may serve some purposes for the time being, but ultimately they are useless. Syamasundara dasa: Men in society volunteer, “I will not kill you or steal your property if you will not kill me or steal my property.” Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is the thieves’ contract. But, after all, if you remain a thief, what is the improvement? Thieves may steal some valuable things, and afterwards they congregate and say, “Let’s divide this property honestly.” Thieves are all dishonest, although they talk of honesty among themselves. Originally, everyone immigrated to America, and the whole land was stolen from the Indians. Now the thieves have formed a government and will not allow outsiders in without visas and passports and so many things. This is the kind of morality that is going on. Syamasundara dasa: Hobbes’s social contract was something like the converse of the Golden Rule: “Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you.” Srila Prabhupada: That was also Buddha’s theory. Lord Buddha pointed out that if someone hurts us, we feel pain. Why, therefore, should we hurt others? Of course, third and forth-class men have to be taught in this way. But in Bhagavad-gita, Krsna tells Arjuna, “Kill them!” Does this mean that Krsna’s positioon is reduced? It is a question of the intelligence of the men involved. Syamasundara dasa: Well Hobbes is trying to determine how society can live peacefully. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, people have tried many times but have always failed. There cannot be any peace in this material world. Krsna says plainly: abrahma-bhuvanal lokah punar avartino ’rjuna mam upetya tu kaunteya punar janma na vidyate “From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kunti, never takes birth again.” (Bg. 8.16) Since this is a place of misery, how can we establish peace here? We cannot. The material universe is structured in such a way that peace is not possible. As Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Öhakura says: samsara-davanala-lidha-loka (Sri Gurv-astaka, 1). This material world is exactly like a blazing forest fire. No one wants to fight, but fighting takes place. How can you check it simply by making a contract? We are thinking that the material world is a nice place to live, but this is like a man thinking that stool is nice because it has been dried in the sun. If the stool is soft, it is not so good. But in either case, it is stool. Padam padam yad vipadam na tesam (Bhag. 10.14.58) In this world, there is danger at every step. Throughout history, people have tried to make contracts for peace, but it is not possible. one may refuse to subnit, but nature will not allow this. If we do not submit to Krsna, nature will punish us so that we will finally be obliged to submit to Him. That is nature’s law. If we voluntarily sumit to Krsna, that is for our benefit, but if we do not, nature’s laws are so stringent that they will always give us trouble, and at the end we will be obliged to agree: vasudevah sarvam iti. “Vasudeva, Krsna, is everything.” (Bg. 7.19) If, after many births of struggle, we have to come to this point, why waste our time? Why not surrender to Krsna immediately? Otherwise, we will go on suffering according to nature’s law.

SB 8.9.29 In human society there are various activities performed for the protection of one’s wealth and life by one’s words, one’s mind and one’s actions, but they are all performed for one’s personal or extended sense gratification with reference to the body. All these activities are baffled because of being separate from devotional service. But when the same activities are performed for the satisfaction of the Lord, the beneficial results are distributed to everyone, just as water poured on the root of a tree is distributed throughout the entire tree. PURPORT This is the distinction between materialistic activities and activities performed in Krsna consciousness. The entire world is active, and this includes the karmis, the jnanis, the yogis and the bhaktas. However, all activities except those of the bhaktas, the devotees, end in bafflement and a waste of time and energy. Moghasa mogha-karmano mogha jnana vicetasah: [bg. 9.12] if one is not a devotee, his hopes, his activities and his knowledge are all baffled. A nondevotee works for his personal sense gratification or for the sense gratification of his family, society, community or nation, but because all such activities are separate from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they are considered asat. The word asat means bad or temporary, and sat means permanent and good. Activities performed for the satisfaction of Krsna are permanent and good, but asat activity, although sometimes celebrated as philanthropy, altruism, nationalism, this “ism” or that “ism,” will never produce any permanent result and is therefore all bad. Even a little work done in Krsna consciousness is a permanent asset and is all-good because it is done for Krsna, the all-good Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is everyone’s friend (suhrdam sarva-bhutanam). The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the only enjoyer and proprietor of everything (bhoktaram yajna-tapasam sarva-loka-mahesvaram [bg. 5.29]). Therefore any activity performed for the Supreme Lord is permanent. As a result of such activities, the performer is immediately recognized. Na ca tasman manusyesu kascin me priya-krttamah [bg. 18.69]. Such a devotee, because of full knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is immediately transcendental, although he may superficially appear to be engaged in materialistic activities. The only distinction between materialistic activity and spiritual activity is that material activity is performed only to satisfy one’s own senses whereas spiritual activity is meant to satisfy the transcendental senses of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. By spiritual activity everyone factually benefits, whereas by materialistic activity no one benefits and instead one becomes entangled in the laws of karma. Thus ends the Bhaktivedanta purports of the Eighth Canto, Ninth Chapter, of the Srimad-Bhagavatam, entitled “The Lord Incarnates as Mohini-murti.” ...................................... Now how does Krsna benefit from what you do?

Theology is faith. Science is knowledge: .......................... Hayagriva dasa: Bacon disliked mental speculation about God because we cannot expect God to conform to our own conception. Due to God’s infinitude, no conception of God can be unbelievable. By and large, Bacon relegated theology to the realm of faith, and science to the realm of knowledge of the world. Srila Prabhupada: It is good to be a master architect and make a house with all modern facilities, but if these facilities cause us to forget life’s real aim, we have lost a great deal. It is better to remain without facilities, evacuate in the field, and bathe in the river, than overly concern ourselves with modern amenities, facilities for a pampered life. If we forget our real business––how to revive God consciousness––we have not advanced but regressed.

The Indians golden (very golden) skin color mixed with brown is awesome. Indian women with big eyes and a faraway smile… help! Prabhupada said Italian women were among the most beautiful. There's awesome Polynesians. Actually, there's awesome looks in every culture. Individuals… that its. But I'd pick the top three for cultural superficial beauty. I think all those people have the OLD World look in their features. Europeans? Cold as a Greek statue. Beauty is measured by the women and not the men? I guess women ARE the higher standard?

There is the tradition you speak of. Like varnashrama… it is by quality, not birthright… or position! "I see what GBC is doing with the guru issue as just one of the options, and not necessarily the best one (the lack of flexibility is a big problem for me)" I sympathize with them. I really do. But if their standards compromise the absolutely pure and uncompromising standards of yoga or KC (what matters most to Krsna… what they pretend to advocate) are compromised for political and economic advantage… Need I say more? What is the result? Did individuals gain at everyone else's expense? Whoah… dare I ask? Are they still there? Did they initiate change or were they FORCED to back off of their absurd positions? Did they ever GIVE ground? I just remember a one-way street. Am I describing history accurately or am I a troubled student? .................................... "Doing actual service to Prabhupada's mission - that is much harder." That service has to be consistent with tradition - and purity - and not motivated with selfish concerns.

Ok, besides guest(s); I'll challenge. Prabhupada is the easiest thing to sell. Why haven't they been able to sell him… (as in people wanting it/him)? Things have not even been maintained? Is it all Krsna's desire? Is Supersoul telling you that? Or did I misread you? Leaders EVERYWHERE are unqualified! Will the next Prabhupada please stand up? Who carries the tourch? Do his statements supercede Prabhupada?!?!? If they do, you'd better take a closer look.

I didn't even read the last paragraph or two. But I can't advise you better than you can. You're right. You know what is best for you. (And that can differ for me). So everyone trying to agree "totally" on the same standards is wrong… because there are four divisions of society along with their respective inerests and standards. It's how they want to relate to Krsna - or not - and everything around them. (Most people refuse to read the signs. Not so good at it myself.) But I think you're headed for trouble… following speculations of literal scriptures or not. I could be wrong.

True. But there are other viewpoints… and circumstance. Many people can talk to you endlessly that you are not the body or any other aspect of spiritual science… including you and I. But are we effective communicators? Do we even know… what we're talking about? Prabhupada on the other hand could say it once… and you'd understand. There is no substitute for the qualified guru! Be careful who you accept as authority. Just being receptive to messages has it's effect! That's why I previously expressed sympathy for the board moderators who really have to sift through the garbage.

At first I didn't feel like responding. But here I go… "Trying to understand Krsna is always both advantageous and benefical." I disagree. Some people's "understanding" of God is some kind of sadistic being because of the problem of evil in the world. A natural reation to speculation… without enough information. "And what are our qualifications? The best I can hope for is to become more interested and a little humble and receptive." Hope. Does that supercede action? You have free will. You have the power in your hands. But you have to DO SOMETHING! Qualify yourself! What to do to get there? It depends on you. What YOU DO with your knowledge. Why are all these "experienced" devotees speculating on what to do? And what is being done? Still trying to figure it out? Do you speculate your way to humility and reception? What is reception? SERVICE (One of our first disputes was between the "love vs. service" aspect of spiritual life).

But it has to be advantageous, beneficial. And you have to be qualified to deal with the subject. Some things are better left alone… because speculation(s) can change forms on you… the 'ol change-over; modes of nature competing. To keep it spiritual is not an easy trick.