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Audarya lila

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  1. And here is the Gaudiya analysis of that verse and the other surrounding verses - From Golden Volcano: The Golden Avatar In the teachings of Karabhajana Rsi we find mention of the different incarnations for different ages (yugavataras). In Dvapara-yuga, the yugavatara is mentioned as follows: dvapare bhagavan syamah pita-vasa nijayudhah srivatsadibhir ankais ca laksanair upalaksitah In Dvapara-yuga, Lord Krsna appears with the color of a dark rain cloud, wearing lightning-colored garments. He is decorated with beautiful ornaments. His chest bears the mark of Srivatsa, and He carries His own weapons. After the description of the yugavatara of Dvapara-yuga, Karabhajana Rsi mentions the kali-yugavatara: iti dvapara urv-isa stuvanti jagad-isvaram nana-tantra-vidhanena kalav api tatha srnu He says, "0 King, up to Dvapara-yuga, I have finished describing the incarnations for different ages who come to remind the people of the most appropriate duty for their age. They come and tell us, 'If you do this, you will get the greatest benefit.' O King, after the Dvapara age is finished, the age of Kali comes. The incarnation for the age of Kali has been mentioned in many places in the scriptures, and now I am just going to explain that information to you." (S.B. 11.5.31) Then he says: krsna-varnam tvisakrsnam sangopangastra parsadam yajnaih sankirtana prayair yajanti hi su-medhasah In a suppressed way, this verse explains the advent of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. The ordinary meaning of krsna-varnam is "of a black color." But tvisakrsnam means "His luster is not black." Accompanied by His associates, He is worshiped by the process of sankirtana, the chanting of the holy name of Krsna, and those of sharp intellect will perform this kind of worship. Golden Gift of the Golden Lord Jiva Goswami explains the meaning of this verse in his own parallel verse: antah krsnam bahir gauram darsitangadi-vaibhavam kalau ankirtanadyai sma krsna-caitanyam asritah "I take shelter of Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who is outwardly of a golden complexion, but is inwardly Krsna Himself. In this age of Kali, He displays His expansions while performing congregational chanting of the holy name of Krsna. That He is blackish within means that internally He is Krsna; that He is golden without means that He has accepted the mood of Srimati Radharani. In the age of Kali, that Golden Lord is seen accompanied by His expansions, associates, and intimate devotees performing sankirtana." Someone may argue that the meaning of krsna-varnam is that His color is black and His luster is also black. But how is this possible? That would be redundant. The conjunction between the words tvisa and akrsnam mean that His color is krsna, black, but His luster is akrsna: not black. Then, someone might say, "Not black does not necessarily mean golden. Why should it mean golden?" The answer is found in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Once, Vasudeva sent the astrologer-priest Garga Rsi to Vrndavana to perform the name-giving ceremony for Krsna. At that time, Garga Rsi came to the house of Nanda Maharaja and explained that Vasudeva had sent him. He said, "Your child is now a little grown up and the name-giving ceremony must be performed." At that time, he spoke the following verse: asan vamas trayo hy asya grhnato 'nuyugam tanuh suklo raktas tatha pita idanim krsnatam gatah In past incarnations, this boy has appeared with different complexions: white, red, and gold, according to the particular age in which He appeared. Now He has assumed this blackish color." He said, "Krsna comes in a white color in Satya-yuga, red in Treta-yuga, and He also comes with a golden complexion. Now in this Dvapara-yuga He has come in a black color." So the reference to the golden color (pita) is found here, because only that color has been left for this present age of Kali. There is another reference to this golden color in the Upanisads: yada pasya pasyate rukma varnam: "Krsna, the Supreme Brahman, appears in a golden form." Rukma varnam means golden. And here also, non-black means golden. Krsna wanted to come as the incarnation for this age of Kali, as well as to fulfill His promise in Vrndavana: "I shall chant the glory of the gopis, especially of Radharani. I shall chant Her name. Her glory, and roll in the dust of the earth!" But Radharani said, "\ won't allow Your body to roll in the dust of this earth. I shall cover You with My luster." Both the mood as well as the luster of Radharani capture Krsna when He comes here in Kali-yuga. And this does not occur in all Kali-yugas, but only in a special Kali-yuga. In all the days of Brahma, in every yuga, the yugavatara comes, but Krsna appears only once in a day of Brahma, or once every 4.3 billion years. At that time, the Original Personality of Godhead (svayam bhagavan) appears along with His abodes, Vrndavana and Navadwipa. And Krsna and Mahaprabhu do not come here alone, but They come with Their paraphernalia and suitable companions. Sweetness Tasting Itself And in this age of Kali, He performs a double function: He preaches nama-sankirtana, and more important. He assumes the mood of Radharani to taste His own sweetness, rasa. He is rasa Himself. Krsna thinks, "What is the intensity of the finest rasa in Me? I would like to taste that." But only devotees can taste that, so He took the position of Radharani to taste Himself as Krsna, the central final and perfect abode of rasa. Only Radharani can taste the maximum rasa, so He has to take Her nature, Her mood and temperament to taste His own intrinsic ecstasy. For that reason He descended. His first duty was to spread nama-sankirtana, and the secondary, internal, private duty was to perform bhajana-vibhajan, to taste His own intrinsic ecstasy in the mood of Radharani. In Puri, with Ramananda Raya, Svarupa Damodara, and other intimate associates. He tasted that great ocean of union in separation continuously for twelve years. In His last twelve years. He passed His time only in the process of tasting that mellow. That incarnation is generally worshiped by sankirtana. Without sankirtana, Gauranga and His paraphernalia cannot be worshiped. He is the propounder of sankirtana, He loves sankirtana, and He gets satisfaction only by sankirtana. Only those who have sufficient merit (sukrti-van), will worship Him by this process. The common mob cannot join this campaign. Those who have good guidance internally, good fortune, can catch the very gist of truth and engage in this process of nama-sankirtana. Love is Supreme A rubbish-brain cannot detect what is right or wrong, or how precious this is. He cannot understand or follow this higher line of thought. A man should be judged by his ideal, his aspiration for higher things. If the ideal is great, the man is great. What should be the highest ideal? Love. Love is the supreme thing. It is the most rare and precious thing. Divine love and beauty is the highest thing ever known to the world, and those who can catch this are really possessed of good intellect (su-medhasah). And one who possesses this highest ideal should be considered to be a man of higher order. He alone can understand and practice sankirtana. He alone can take to this path, this process of satisfying the Supreme Being by chanting the holy name of the Lord. The Hidden Incarnation This is mentioned in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, as well as in the Mahdbharata and other Vedic scriptures. Karabha-jana Rsi, the last of the nine great yogis, has given us a clue to understand Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the special incarnation for the age. He has mentioned the incarnation for this age of Kali in a mystic way. We may think, why has this not been described very plainly? So many avatdras are clearly described, but when Srimad-Bhagavatam describes Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the incarnation for the age of Kali, it is discussed in a mystic way. The answer is found in the teachings of Prahlada Maharaja, who says, "0 Lord, one of Your names is Triyuga, meaning one who incarnates in three ages—Satya, Treta, and Dvapara—but not in Kali. And why? Because the incarnation for the age of Kali is in disguise (channah kalau yad abhavas tri-yugo 'tha sa tvam)." Here we find the key to this mystic way of representing Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to the fortunate and intelligent circle (su-med-hasah), that ordinary people may not have any clue. dhyeyam sada paribhava-ghnam abhista-doham tirthaspadam siva-virinci-nutam saranyam bhrtyarti-ham pranata-pala bhavabdhi-potam vande maha-purusa te caranaravindam "0 Mahaprabhu, Your lotus feet are the highest object of meditation, for they not only destroy the pain of material existence, but they bestow the greatest fulfillment to all souls who take shelter beneath them. Your lotus feet even purify all saintly persons and holy places. Lord Siva and Lord Brahma aspire to take shelter beneath Your lotus feet. 0 Mahaprabhu, You give shelter to all who simply bow down before You. You relieve all the miseries of Your surrendered servants. In the grand ship of Your lotus feet, we can cross over this ocean of material miseries. 0 Mahaprabhu, I bow down before Your lotus feet." After mentioning the incarnation of Godhead for the age of Kali, Srimad-Bhdgavatam suddenly begins this song in praise of that great yugavatara, Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu. With a grand voice the Bhagavatam has come to sing the praise of that guide for Kali-yuga. This follows the verse which hints at the avatara of Kali-yuga. Krsna-varnam means one who is always describing Krsna, who always has on his lips the words "Krsna, Krsna, Krsna." Another meaning of this expression is "One who is Krsna Himself, but whose luster is not black." If we look deeply, we shall find that hidden beneath His golden luster is the blackish body of Krsna. With His own paraphernalia He has come to this plane, and service to Him is performed only by sankirtana, divine sound in mass prayer. By that symptom we can recognize His divine position. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is a hidden incarnation; He comes in disguise. Such an avatara is worshiped by the divinely intellectual. In this way, the Srimad-Bhagavatam first describes that uncommon, extraordinary personality, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, in a mystic way and then proclaims His nobility and His greatness. The Srimad-Bhagavatam explains, "That same personality who came as Ramacandra and Krsna has again appeared. He has come to direct you to the real fulfillment of life. He is drawing the sweetest nectar from above for the sake of everyone. Only meditate on Him and all your troubles will be finished. He is the agent purifying all the holy places of pilgrimage and great saintly persons by His touch, by His sankirtana, by His drawing the highest things down from the highest plane. And even Brahma and Siva, puzzled by His noble gift, will begin to praise Him. They will eagerly aspire to take shelter under His lotus feet in surrender. The pains of all who come to serve Him will be removed, and their inner necessities will be fulfilled. And He will take care of those who take shelter of Him; they will be given protection as well as everything they may need. In this world where mortality rules, where we are continually experiencing the undesirable changes of repeated birth and dea th, in this area where no one wants to live, a great ship will come for us and take us within and carry us away from this unpleasant position. Let us fall at the feet of that great personality who comes to give the highest nectar." The Srimad-Bhagavatam continues: tyaktvasu-dustyaja-surepsita-rajya-laksmim dharmistha arya-vacasa yad agad aranyam maya-mrgam dayitayepsitam anvadhavad vande maha-purusa te caranaravindam "0 Supreme Lord, You gave up the goddess of fortune and Her great opulence, which is most difficult to abandon, and is sought after even by the gods. In order to perfectly establish the principles of religion. You left for the forest to honor the brahmana's curse. To deliver the sinful souls who chase illusory pleasures. You search after them and award them Your devotional service. At the same rime. You are engaged in search of Yourself, in search for Sri Krsna: reality the beautiful." Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has given his explanation that although it seems that this verse applies to Lord Ramacandra, who left His kingdom and went with Sitadevi to the forest to discharge the duties designed by His father, this also applies to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has drawn out the internal meaning of this verse and applied it in the case of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Tyakva su-dustyaja-surepsita-raj ya-laksmim means He left imperial prosperity which is hard to abandon. Generally we find this in the case ot Lord Ramacandra, but Visvanatha Cakravarh Thakura says that surepsita-rajya-laksmim means the valuable devotional company of Visnupriya-devi. That may not appear to be a materially big thing, but the dedication that Visnupriya has shown in Her heart for Sriman Mahaprabhu is greater than any imperial standard. And He had to leave that behind. Such a standard of sacrifice and service is never found even among the great society of the gods. For the sake of the public welfare He had to ignore the serving, loving attitude of Visnupriya. The Curse of a Brahmana This verse mentions the curse of a brahmana. That brahmana told Sriman Mahaprabhu, "I want to participate in Your nocturnal kirtanas in which You taste krsna-lila, but the doors are closed." When Sriman Mahaprabhu used to perform kirtana and taste the vraja-lila of Krsna, He did so behind closed doors in deep night. But this brahmana thought himself a very qualified, religious person because he lived by only drinking milk and nothing else, so he said, "\ must have entrance into that kirtana. I do not eat anything but milk; why should I not be allowed?" Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied, "Milk drinking is no qualification for entering into Krsna consciousness." The brdhmana said, "Then I curse You to lose your family life!All right," Mahaprabhu said and accepted the curse. And later He took sannyasa and chased after those who were misguided by Mayadevi in order to save them. At the same time , although He is Krsna, He accepted the mood of Sriman Radharani. For these two reasons. He left His apparently worldly life: He acted for the welfare of the public and, after finishing that work, spent the next twelve years tasting the very inner aspiration of Sriman Radharani and searching after His own inner sweetness. This was what he came to show to the world. In this mystic way, Srimad-Bhagavatam has proclaimed the magnanimous appearance of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
  2. Here is a nice segment of a Sanga posting that is relevant to this discussion: Q. And study scripture? A. Yes, study the scripture. But for what? For doing bhajan, not for collecting information to prove a point, to beat somebody over the head with it. Such argumentation is not helpful at all for bhakti. It is pratikula, unfavorable. So study sastra for bhajan. Let it speak to us of what we need to do now, today, to make progress in Krsnas service. This is what I mean by an open heart. Study sastra in that way, and practice. Q. And preaching? A. What comes to you, if you feel it is worth sharing, then share it. If someone asks you a question, you answer honestly what you have understood. And if people are attracted to that, then this is preaching. You don't have to study for preaching, planning what to say, finding a verse to defeat others, thinking, 'they're all demons, they have all rejected the right way, they are this or that,' according to whatever ism or schism we are part of. Find a verse that changes your heart. When your heart changes, preaching will overflow, automatically. That kind of preaching will be compelling and it will draw people in and it will draw down the mercy of Caitanya Mahaprabhu as well. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa
  3. krsna varnam tvisa krsnam sangopangastra parsadam yajnaih sankirtanam-prayair yajanti hi sumedhasah "In the age of Kali, Krsna appears in a golden form, chanting the two syllables krs-na. He descends along with His weapons, saktis, limbs, and eternal confidential associates. Those with intelligence worship Him with the sankirtana yajna. (1) (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.5.32)
  4. That's the problem with thinking that divinity can be captured by logic, reason and argument. Can anyone limit the unlimited? Some people will not accept any scripture as 'authority', some will say 'we only accept sruti', some will say 'we accept sruti and smriti'. Whatever. No conclusive truth can be reached in this fashion. When devotees used to ask Srila Prabhupada about confidential lilas of Krsna he used to answer, 'why don't you go there and find out'. The obvious implication being that experience is what a devotee should be after, not accumulating an endless array of 'facts' from various books. Devotees of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu accept his divinity based on the testimony of his intimate associates. That is enough. We also accept the fact that the Vedic revelation is not static but rather dynamic and that it is revealed by one who is a realized soul. The Bhagavatam speaks of Krsna coming in Kali yuga and always having the Name Krsna on his lips. He will spread that glories of the Holy Name. Gaudiya Acharyas have acertained that the Bhagavatam is speaking about Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. This cetainly seems consistent with his life and revelation as we find it in the writings of his intimate associates and followers. Bottom line for all of us is to chant the Holy Names sincerely and pray for good association. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa
  5. Very cute, Satyaraja. The death idea is, however, your own spin on things. It seems you still feel that you must have an enemy. If you think she is minimizing anyone by her post just be straightforward and say so. She is clearly referring to other Gaudiya's in this post so I don't think it's very relevant for your good self anyway. The only issue I have with the type of statement being made is that it sounds like the statement 'My Guru is Jagat Guru - all others are less'. I don't think that Madhavi-devi dasi meant it that way, but there is a real danger for all of us that in our glorification and appreciation of our preceptors that we become myopic and fail to recognize the glory of all of Krsna's messengers. Krsna uses his messenger's however he sees fit. That one spreads the Holy Name far and wide is certainly wonderful but it should be properly understood that Krsna's devotees who don't do so are not less glorious or are to be thought of in a 'lesser' way. Who is better, the bhajanandi or the gosthanandi? We will leave that for Krsna to decide. The point that I think is very salient that Madhavi-devi dasi is bringing to the forfront is that we should never minimize the glories of Krsna's servants. Anyone who does so is certainly not pleasing Krsna. If we aren't inspired in a certain way - that's fine - we should find the best instruction for us to be inspired and at the same time be very careful to be humble and avoid offenses to those who have dedicated their lives to serving the Lord and spreading the glories of his Holy Name. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa
  6. This is a response to Jijagi's comment regarding Satyaraja. I agree with what you said to a certain degree. what is the meaning of growth without constant rejection and acceptance? Here is a nice quote in this regard from Sri Guru and His Grace, "Progress means elimination and acceptance. And our spiritual life must always be a dynamic thing, otherwise we shall be dead. Progress means acceptance and elimination. The scientists also say this in their theory of natural selection, 'survival of the fittest.' Nature is selecting some and eliminating others. Life is dynamic; we are living in a dynamic world. Everywhere we find acceptance and elimination. That is progress. And our life must be progressive, not static." What I personally have had a hard time with in regards to Satyaraja is that he has a history of posting in a very authoritative manner and has often been very critical and used denigrating and derogatory language toward those with views that differ from his. This was true when he thought of himself as a Guadiya and continues to be true. One of the problems he had with Gaudiya Vaishnavism is that his perception was that it requires an enemy - such as karmis, sahajiyas, demons, mayavadis etc. What he has failed to understand is that this is more a part of his own psychology than it ever was of any ideology that he tied himself to. Anyway, my own two cents worth is that it is good to question and to try to understand and grow but we should do it in a fashion that allows the same for others and shows respect for others. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa
  7. Here are a couple of nice articles on faith: http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/sridhara_mj/faith_wealth.html http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/nmj_articles/planets_of_faith.html Please read these articles carefully because they answer this question fully and take it to a higher plane - faith is all in all. Genuine faith will come into ones heart by associating with adv advanced devotees. There is no other way. your servant, Audarya lila dasa
  8. Dear Madhavi-devi dasi, I was not trying to point a finger at you by my last post. I was simply trying to change the focus of the discussion and stop the abuse that was going on in the name of stopping the abuse - does that make sense? You are certainly right that it is difficult for anyone to have complete empathy with others without having tread the same path that they have. I truly feel for all souls that are being abused and cheated - and that is all of us until we choose to take a different path. I do appreciate personal stories and I think, as I said before, that there is certainly something to gain by opening our hearts to each other and sharing our tragedies. I just don't think we need to continue them and continue the abuse by abusing others. I am truly saddened that you felt I was attacking you, it couldn't possibly have been farther from my mind and my intentions. The golden rule is so simple and so eloquent and so difficult to put into practice - do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That certainly includes treating harshness with gentleness, meanness with kindness, accusations with praise. I personally don't believe that the answer to abuse is to become an abuser oneself. This is the natural egotistical response and one often feels 'justified' in behaving in such a fashion - but in reality it just furthers the cycle and perpetuates it. This takes away our own dignity and puts us on a par with those who choose to behave in that fashion. Anyway, forgive me if you were pained by my words and trust me that they were not meant to hurt, but rather to heal. I spoke them to all readers of this thread in the hopes that it may make us all think a little more before posting derogatory statements meant to demean and belittle others. I also hoped that it would bring Krsna into the picture and I thank Babhru for taking the que. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa
  9. Must the cycle continue? Who will be brave enough to end the cycle of abuse? We are not these bodies, remember? I suspect we all have stories of abuse to share and it may be useful if the intent is to educate and avoid finding ourselves in those situations again. Suryaz made a good point about the fact that it is the lust we have in our own hearts that 'seduces' us when we see material forms. What about victim mentality? It's the environment, it's that abusive man, the abusive woman, etc. All places emphasis outside oneself and blaming the 'other'. Vidura didn't exhibit victim mentality when he was abused by his brother. He accepted the abuse as being due to his own faults and removed himslef from the place. We all have choices to make with regard to how we will act and react in any given situation. In a very real sense no one can cheat you except yourself, and no one can abuse you except yourself. We are devotees and we are called to see all things, good and bad, as divine providence and keep our focus on serving Sri Guru in all circumstances. My sister is a drug addict and has led a miserable life. She has always had a 'victim mentality' and has never been introspective enough to look inward for the reason for her life and circumstances. Devotees are compassionate by nature and gentle. Physical and mental abuse is not a part of devotion and those who engage in such practices should be avoided and respected from a distance - as Vidura did when he encountered such a situation. If you are struck or abused verbally or physically you can choose to engage in the same behavior in retaliation or you can choose to follow the path etched out for us by Lord Chaitanya and his followers. We are human and all of us make mistakes. Let us see the good in others and cultivate the good in ourselves. Hare krsna All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranaga!!! Your servant, Audarya lila dasa
  10. Had Krsna not left Vrndavana or sent Uddhava there with a message we would not know the glories of Srimati Radharani and the gopis. Had Krsna not left the rasa dance and left Radhika alone we would not know the glories of Sankirtan and we would not fully grasp who Lord Chaitanya is. Once when Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati was at Radha Kunda with several of his disciples they saw a family circumambulating her. One disciple commented that they must have such love for Srimati Radharani. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta said that their vision is completely different than ours. They are interested in Srimati Radharani because she is associated with Krsna. For us it is exactly the opposite, we are only interested in Krsna because he is associated with Srimati Radharani. Anyway, for sure Lord Chaitanya is none other than Krsna himself and he has taken on the bhava of Srimati Radharani. His very name says it all - Sri Krsna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu! Your servant, Audarya lila dasa
  11. Well, this is becoming quite an interesting thread and all are sharing very nicely. My own impression of Rishi's posts are that they were very heartfelt and honest. They may be lacking in linguistic presentation and one can certainly take words written to something other than what they were intended to mean, but I personally went with the overall tone of the message and didn't the way that Suryaz did. Speaking, writing and understanding is a very good topic and one which if analyzed could reveal much in regard to the topic at hand. It takes a long time to really get to know someone and how they communicate. Even after many years and honest attempts, miscommunication happens. My wife has a very unique method of communication at times. She will say something and I am left to interpret what she means based on my history with her, her physical appearance etc. I often find that our communication misses because we 'speak a different language'. In one of the management classes I am involved we we are currently discussing communication. We are looking at different personality types and how to present messages that will be effective based on the audience. You have all heard that only 7% of the content of our communication is conveyed through the words we speak. I find that statistic a little hard to believe, but certainly communication is a very complex thing. I had the wonderful opportunity to speak with Valaya Prabhu on the phone last night and it certainly increased my appreciation for him and I feel more connected to him because of this exchange. This medium of communication, while being wonderful in many ways, leaves much to be desired. One last comment about relationships before I get back to work. I agree with Jayaradhe that it is detrimental to relationships to try to change those with whom we are relating. In the seven habits of highly successful people Steven Covey relates the concept of focusing our attention on our area of influence rather than our area of concern. What he means by this is that people have a tendency to focus their energies and attention on issues outside of their area of influence and are incapable of affecting any change. This leads to dissatisfaction and frustration. If we focus our energies on the areas that we have direct influence in we can make meaningful change which will lead to fulfillment. In this regard, my comment is that we can change ourselves and that is where our focus should lie. If we become a good example for others they may be encouraged to make posititve change themselves. Overall, I don't find that the tendency to try to change others is a gender specific trait. It is human nature to look outside and see where things will 'fit better'. It is always easier to see where others can improve rather than being introspective and seeing where we ourselves can change and having the courage and will to do so. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa
  12. Jayaradhe - Just a quick response to the idea of friendships with those of the opposite sex. Personally I think it is fine. It depends on the people involved if it will be inappropriate or not. It is certainly possible for all of us to transcend the dictates of the body and our orientations based on our conditioning. However, we are all at different stages of realization and detachment. We also have different ideas of what may be right and wrong. You have mentioned that you find it deplorable for a woman to 'steal' a man away from his wife. I totally agree with you and find it also deplorable the other way around. For me, this is an uncrossable barrier - but obviously experience tells us both that others don't share that moral conviction. I do think that what you said about balance and association are valid points. Being married with children I have very little time for any other association or development of relationships. I am a bit of a recluse in the sense that I stick very close to my family. This is partly due to where I live, but also partly due to wanting to share my life deeply with them. My kids are 12 and 9 and I feel that the more time I spend with them the better. As my family grows this situation will change and I undoubtedly will expand my social field when I find it appropriate to do so. But, getting back to the ying/yang thing - I do find that my life is more complete and that I have a more balanced outlook based on my relationship with my wife. On a side note, my wife has always had many male friends and has never felt the slight bit attracted to them sexually (or should I say felt the desire to be involved with them that way). I have always encouraged her in her friendships and she in mine. I don't feel that jealousy has a place in a healthy loving relationship. That's where trust comes in - without it how will love develop? For myself, I have had mostly close friendships with other men. My friendships with women have been fairly limited. Not because I am afraid of slipping or anything -I guess it's just my natural inclination to befriend other men being that I have more in common with them in general. I do have close friends that are women, but they are fewer and mostly less intimate than the male friends that I have. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa
  13. Here is exactly what you said to refresh your memory: Shvu said: Accept everything that has been told to you, in toto, without questioning/thinking/reasoning it out. And bingo ! you will be where these devotees are, for this is how they got there. I have already pointed out how foolish this statement is and given you a very simple example that even a child would understand. Are you really so arrogant that you can't admit to the ignorance of your statement? You misunderstood the discussions that were going on several weeks ago that you referred to. The discussion was centered around adjustment of the teaching according to time, place and circumstance. I took exception to slanderous remarks regarding my spiritual master and I quoted scripture to show why this was improper Vaishnava behavior. The Vedic teachings are not static, they are dynamic and require realized souls to present such that they are relevant to the times within which we live. Anyway Shvu - God bless you and Hare Krsna. NO more time or inclination to debate with you. BTW, I did look at your secondary post and it was really quite good but still missed the mark - it did however clarify where you are coming from and when taken with your first it certainly makes it less foolish, yet foolish it remains. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa
  14. Shvu, Your speculation as to the need or lack thereof for the commentary of Madvacharya shows the dilemna that you place yourself in by thinking that you can approach divinity and understand it through you tiny intellect. I won't go into the details as to the need for the commentary written by Baladeva since it has been dealt with exhaustively previously. Your derogatory remark regarding our Gaudiya Acharyas is false and unecessary. After stating that they are a bunch of Bengalis who had no formal training you go on to say that you are well aware of their scholarship. Truth is - you seem to relish argument more than you do actually finding out the truth of a thing. Try reading Caitanya Charitamrta sometime. You will find that the Gaudiya Acharyas were very well schooled in the traditional manner. I suggested you read Tattva-sandarba and you inferred that you have. I doubt that very much from your comments. I will post some of the scriputural evidence that Jiva Goswami uses to support his thesis with regard to the Superior position of the Bhagavatam when I get a chance and find the book. I have just moved and most of my belongings are currently in boxes. All of the above aside I will tell you that I have no interest in jousting with you or engaging in the type of dry argumentation that you seem to relish. I simply pointed out to you that you made a foolish and poorly reasoned remark. You seem to be too proud to admit it. So be it. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa P.S. try chanting Hare Krsna you may find that this simple practice will lead you to understanding things that you previously had no access to. Krsna is all merciful, he can do anything and he can enlighten anyone.
  15. No Shvu, everything that doesn't suit my own thinking isn't to be dismissed as foolish - I think that this description suits yourself much better. What I dismiss as foolish is the comment that all devotees on these forums accept everything in toto without using the tools of reasoning, and their God given intelligence. We are required to use our intelligence even to carry on this useless conversation. You have been visiting this forum for some time and still you haven't even caught on to the very basic phenomena of dialog that goes on. But then again, what can I expect from an athiest - just thought I'd jab you back - not usually my cup of tea though. My point here is that if you would open your eyes a little you would see there there is much disagreement over all sorts of issues relating to scripture and it's application. These forums provide a useful outlet for discussing these issues. If everyone did as you say they do, there would be no discussion to have. Everyone simply accept everything that is written as you find it without question. Do you by any chance now see and admit to the foolishness of your statement? Your servant, Audarya lila dasa
  16. Shvu, Many refer to the Bagavad-gita as Gitopanisad due to it's Upanishadic nature as well as it's being spoken directly by the Supreme Lord. Srimad Bhagavatam is the natural commentary on Vedanta Sutra. The puranas and itihasas are mentioned in the Vedic texts themselves to be the 'fith Veda'. That you don't consider them to be Vedic doesn't make it so. Many others do consider them to be Vedic. To mention a few I will cite Jiva Goswami, Visvanatha Chakravarti Thakur and Baladeva Vidyabhusana - all great scholars in their own right and certainly vastly more learned than you or I in the Vedic literatures. If you get the chance some time you shoud read Jiva Goswami's Tattva-sandarbha wherein he shows the importance of the Puranas in terms of Vedic revelation and in particular he highlights the Srimad Bhagavatam as the samadhi-bhasya of Vyasadeva. BTW, I wasn't infuriated by your remarks. I simply find them to be foolish inflamatory remarks. Certainly not what I would expect from one who has chosen to use his intellect, discrimination and powers of reasoning in pursuit of knowledge. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa
  17. Dear Sanjay, What you need is good association. Shvu is right in instructing you to focus on your studies. Do not neglect your duties. The reality is that we are in danger at every moment and it is foolish to think as Shvu has suggested that 'I will forget spiritual pursuits for now and take them up later' - there may not be a later. Act now. Find a sadhu. Seek out advanced devotees and in their association you will find that your faith naturally increases and you will begin to relish the Holy Name. This is the real secret to spiritual life. We all need good association. If you are serious, Krsna will provide you with inspiration and association so that you can advance nicely. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa
  18. Shvu - I would have expected a little better from you. You know this is completely false and foolish and is also completely against the Vedic teachings. To point out the obvious and correct your foolish remark, we are to use our intelligence, discrimination, experience and reasoning to their fullest extent in pursuit of truth. This is acknowledged in all scriputure and any bona fide teacher will instruct his/her students properly in this regard. You obviously have a problem with subjective evidence which is not subject to reasoning and intellectual pursuit. Here, of course, I am referring to the question of God and soul and spiritual life. There are many ways of living and pursuing happiness and fulfillment in life. There are all types of people we can associate ourselves with. Saints and sadhus are characterized by certain qualities that they exhibit. We all exhibit certain qualities and affect those who come into our association accordingly. Spiritual life is begun by associating with advanced souls. Through their association and service we become eligible ourselves to tread the path of devotion. Ones heart begins to open in the presence of saintly devotees. This is the secret to begin to understand what treasures lie with the scriptures and what joy awaits us through the practice of sadhana. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. That you have not tasted anything doesn't mean that others haven't. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa
  19. Thank you all for such a sharing and thoughtful thread. Thought I would just comment a little bit about the sacrament of confession (or reconcilliation as it is now called). I have had many discussions with my wife with regard to confession and what the Gaudiya Vaishnava's do in this regard - in other words - is there an analogous sacrament in our tradition? What I have realized through these discussions and through taking my daughter to the classes leading up to her first confession is that the sacrament is very beautiful and requires not only introspection but a great deal of humility. It also involves quite a lot of austerity, tapa, which is how I explained the concept to my daughter. I told her about Lord Brahma sitting on the lotus in darkness and ignorance and hearing the word - tapa - and his performance of austerity which led to enlightenment. I don't know how many of you are ex-catholics, but for those that are, I want to tell you that the Catholic church has come a long way in the past few decades. It takes a lot of courage to share with another person the faults we have and the fall downs that we experience in our journey. The rite of reconcilliation is really quite like the concept of revealing your heart and mind to Sri Guru or an advanced Vaishnava in order to make advancement and seek ways of improving your situation. One of the problems I have felt exists within Iskcon and the society of devotees in general is that fall downs and detours from the path of devotion are seen in such a negative light that devotees would rather 'pretend' that they don't have problems than deal with their own personal realities and strive for the day when they are truly free from anarthas. I think that Rishi's sharing of his relationship with his fiance serves to illustrate this point. It's a very interesting psychological dynamic. Catholics are told that they are sinners and that all are sinners. Of course we all know that Catholics are also very guilt ridden, but I don't think that they come close to the feelings of guilt and dejection of devotees who fall down. For Catholics there is the sacrament of reconcilliation where they can get spiritual counseling and work with their mentor through the years to improve themselves. I really feel that we could learn a lot from them in this regard. Opening up the heart and admitting our own faults is so hard, but so necessary if we really want to progress in life. On a completely differnt note, but certainly related to the topics in this thread, Tripurari Maharaja has commented that if a couple is engaged in serving Krsna and helping each other advance in Krsna consciousness there need not be seperation even in advanced age. The purpose of the renounced ashramas is to facilitate increased engagement in Krsna's service, but if that can be achieved through marriage there certainly is no reason to renounce it. Personally I think it is quite artificial to think that there is some formula that all devotees should follow. Each of us is unique and have unique living situations which requires different approaches. For some of us it will be best to eventually move into monk life, for others that would be a hindrance rather than a help. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa
  20. I agree with Maitreya on this one. I can't believe a devotee would advocate 'choice/abortion' in this fashion. The choice is there in whether to engage the senses, after conception the only choice left to a devotee or a conscious human being is how best to provide for the child. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa
  21. Dear Jayaradhe, Krsna hears all of our prayers and he gives us all what is best for us, even if it is not what we think is best for us. I'm not sure what you meant about meeting someone in a calculating way and whether or not the comment was directed at what I shared. But the comment does make me want to share a little further. At the time I met my wife I had come full circle on many things in my life and had made a very conscious choice to keep myself free from judging people based on temporary false identities. It was at this time that Sandra and I met and we started a friendship that was very intimate and completely devoid of sex life. That friendship is that thing that brought us together and keeps us together. Of course, we are both human and full of fault and we get angry at each other from time to time - just this afternoon in fact - but that only makes our relationship stronger. My wife likes to tell people that I am more Catholic than most Catholic's. On the other side of that equation, I would say that Sandra is as much a devotee as most devotees. There is no doubt that we help each other and support each other fully in our devotional lives. Now here is the thing - sometimes my wife thinks it would have been easier for her to have married a Catholic, and sometimes I feel that my life would be simpler with a devotee. But we both realize that this thought is an illusion and false to it's core. A 'Catholic' man as she has pointed out on many occasions may or may not inspire devotion and may be far less compatible as far as emphasis on what is important in life. Devotees may also be less than inspiring and not necessarily as good of association as my 'non-devotee' wife. A devotee may be more materialistic, less moral, less dedicated to family, more dogmatic - who knows? I do know that personally I have had association with Catholic's that are very inspirational and I have been associated with devotees that are not. There is a wonderful saying that I think is pertinent to this discussion, at least somewhat - man proposes and god disposes. We are meant to see Krsna in all beings. How can I do otherwise? How can any of us? These are just some of my thoughts on this issue. It's really interesting because devotees in different 'camps' don't even seem to be able to co-exist and cooperate with one another. Surely since Srila Prabhupada built a house the whole world can live in my wife and other non-devotees should be included. I don't mean this post to be reactionary, but what I am really trying to say is - we should be open to sharing our lives with whomever Krsna sends our way and in the process try to advance in Krsna consciousness. We may think 'I can only share my life with a devotee' and end up sharing it with someone who uses us and abuses us. All souls are Krsna's and devotion is in the hearts of all beings - we just have to help to bring it out. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa
  22. Very nice topic. I will share a little of my own experience in hopes of getting more discussion going. I don't want to give my whole history here, but a little bit to make my story a little more understandable. I understood that I was not ready for a life of renunciation and celibacy early on after joining the movement in 1978. I didn't see a lot to encourage me in terms of relationships and I definitely didn't want to get into an arranged marriage. This was mainly due to the problems I saw with those that were arranged and my own inclination for wanting to make sure that I had a compatible partner. Also, I have always believed in commitment and I saw too many failed marriages due to immaturity and, as Jaya Radhe has mentioned, false renunciation. I came to the movement with no education or training and my only qualification at the time of my coming to terms with my own nature was that I was trained as a salesman for Krsna. Sales is totally against my nature and is only something I did for Krsna because I saw it, at the time, as a good service. To be sure I wasn't always involved in strictly sales, having distributed books at the airport and sold sets of Srimad Bhagavatams to faithful Hindus - but I also sold paintings, candles and other non-devotional items to support the temple. Anyway, I decided to go to school. The first two years I lived with my parents and went to a community college. My third year I went to U.C. San Diego. Shortly after arriving in San Diego I met my wife at the temple. She is not a devotee. She is, however very devoted to Christ - she is a Catholic. She first came to the temple for a psychology experiment and found that she really enjoyed the atmosphere and the devotion. She is a vegetarian (a little unusual for a catholic). We got married in 1987. We were married in the Catholic church. I had devotees cater the wedding. We had a very small wedding with mainly family members and a few close friends. O.K. - so I got a little carried away with the personal story. A little math will tell you how long we have been married. We have two children. I guess what I would like to share with regards to the topic of the thread is that any relationship takes sacrifice and commitment for it to work. I have learned so much about selflessness due to being married and having kids - lessons that I personally couldn't have learned without family. Being married to a 'non-devotee' has also been very good for me. I encourage my wife in her devotion and she in mine. We enjoy the celebration of each others faith and actively participate with each other. For sure, having this type of marriage has it's own unique challenges - but I have found that they are good ones for my own personal growth. I have had to learn to not only accept diversity and other expressions of faith, but have come to celebrate them. The key to our success in marriage has always been that we have a common goal in life - to learn to love God. As our own faith's mature over time we find that we are growing together and also that we are growing apart. That is probably the most difficult part for those who contemplate inter-faith marriage. There are so many stages we all have to pass through. At first we may be exclusive in our approach to divinity because we are immature and our faith is weak. We become more accepting of diversity over time and through the maturation of our own inner life. As my love for Krsna deepens I am finding that I am again becoming more exclusive, not in my overall vision, but in my personal devotion and that my heart yearns for constant immersion in Krsna katha and that I deeply desire the association of devotees. I said my wife is a 'non-devotee' because she doesn't conform to the definition we usually would agree upon. However, she is very devotional and she is a tremendous inspiration to my own pursuit of service to Mahaprabhu. Catholicism has it's strengths and weaknesses and I have found that our two traditions and faiths compliment each other remarkably well. Sorry if I rambled a bit in this post. What I really want to convey is that the grhasta ashrama is a wonderful ashrama and that most of us are suited to it in one way or another. But marriage requires commitment to realationship, sacrifice and a willingness to give up your personal life for the interests of the family. It is not a fad, or an excuse to indulge in sense gratification. This is one reason why marriages fail. When the initial newness of the relationship wears off and the demands of the senses for titillation and stimulation aren't being met - so goes the union if it is based on such superficiality. In order for a marriage to work properly there must be a sense of duty, a genuine caring and love for the partner and a common goal in terms of lifes pursuits. If these are in place, it is my opinion and experience that marriage will be a progressive and healthy experience which will provide the means for both partners and their offspring to progress toward love in transcendence. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa
  23. Dear Stoneheart, I am very sad that we didn't have the chance to meet in San Diego, but I am sure we will sometime in the future. To all: I have one last thing to say before this thread dies. I personally think that this is a very good topic and it should cause all of us to think about our own application of the principles of Krsna consciousness in our own lives. This is basically how I see the whole issue, topic, or discussion - whatever it is we are doing here. Until we are completely surrendered Krsna conscious entities we will all be covered over by some form of material attachment. What appears palatable to one will be disgusting to another and visa versa. In the true Krsna conscious perspective any form of material attachment needs to be dealt with and eventually we need to move beyond it. But, the reality is - now this is based on my own personal experience and my understanding based on observation over many years of involvment with the Krsna consciousness movement - we do not become pure overnight and we do not give up our attachments overnight. An honest approach by all of us should be to acknowledge our own short comings and attachments and try to develop our Krsna consciousness in the association of those who are more advanced than us. I am most positive that I indulge in practices for which I would be condemned by many devotees. My guess is that many of the readers and posters here do as well. If we take the policy of 'hide it under the rug and pretend it isn't happening' will we ever advance? Maybe, but I think much slower than being honest about our faults and honestly trying to work on improving ourselves in the association of devotees. Each of us is called to be honest and progressive. What I have heard here being espoused by Brahma is that he advocates a liberal policy of including all souls in Lord Chaitanya's movement. I don't think that any devotee has voiced a difference with him on that point. Where the opinions seem to diverge is whether or not devotees should openly acknowledge their material attachments and whether or not a policy can be made to accomodate individual's who fall outside the expected norm within devotee society of following the rules of no meat eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication and no gambling. (on another note, it should be remembered that many arguments that have been raised here have been about human relations and not about sexual indulgence) It should be plain to all of us that many who claimed to follow these four regulative principles failed and out of fear or guilt were unable to admit their own failings and instead 'pretended' to be on a platform that they weren't actually on. This was obviously unhealthy and continues to be for those who remain trapped in this type of guilt and denial. What was initially proposed by Brahma as being something that he would be in favor of was a recognition of a commitment by two individual's to try to live and work together to help each other progress in their spiritual lives. The suggestion was based on the principle of no illicit sex. He eventually extended this idea to include those who are still struggling with the sexual impulse but who are committed to progressive spiritaul culture. My own feeling about these suggestions is that they are not as radical as they are being portrayed to be. On the contrary I personally think that it is a thoughtful approach to a real issue that people are dealing with. The basic idea is not different from one which many of us have already embraced in our own lives. It is this: Be honest about who you are, what your adhikara is, find good association and try to make progress in spiritaul life. I am not sure that I have added much by this post to this discussion, but if it caused any of us to think about our own lives and where we are in terms of our devotion and surrender and to recognize our own fallen and hopeless condition then I consider the attempt a success. (rest assured, I am beneath the straw) Param vijayate Sri Krsna Sankirtan!!! Your servant, Audarya lila dasa
  24. Satyaraja, I don't feel that you ever had a grasp on what Gaudiya Vaishnavism is all about when you were an 'adherent', and you certainly don't seem to have any better idea now. You left because you felt that Gaudiya's needed some enemy to demonize such as sahajiyas or karmis or meat eaters etc. In actuality if you would take the time to be a little introspective you would have noticed that it was you who chose to demonize everyone else and you who continues to do so - you have simply added the Gaudiya's to your list of groups that should be criticized. Allah consciousness and Krsna consciousness is the same thing. When one actually reaches beyond the mind to that plane of experience and their consciousness is raised they will know in the real sense of the word. No truly Allah conscious or Krsna conscious person would engage in terrorism. If you want to fault find why not look at yourself? I am sure you have plenty to work on, I know I do. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa
  25. Certainly one thing about the terrorist attack on the world trade center is that it was immediately visible to all those who reside in America, and no doubt in other places around the globe as well. Suffering is always with us, no doubt. Everyday there are murders, rapes, people dying of cancer etc. If we have a compassionate heart we will definitely feel for all those who suffer. But we all know that when suffering comes closer to us we feel it more intensely and our response is therefore usually more intense. We read about people being injured or killed in auto accidents every day and certainly we are saddened and our hearts go out to them. But when it happens to a close friend or family member we are naturally affected more deeply and directly. This cannot be avoided and is not inappropriate, it is reality. Many of the posters here are U.S. citizens. They may have friends or family or know close friends that have friends or family that were directly impacted by this great tragedy. It is good to feel compassion as it softens the heart. I went to a Catholic men's retreat and a friend got up and talked about his experience and feelings when his daughter was almost killed in an auto accident. The entire audience was filled with the emotion being shared by this kind soul. During our discussion afterwards I made the comment that I really feel that this is what spiritual life is all about. People coming together with feeling and emotion. May Krsna bless us all with genuine love and compassion for all living beings and a desire to spead that love through the propagation of the Holy Name. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa
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