Sonic Yogi

You sound awfully angry that everybody else doesn't think just like you. Is it really that hard for you to accept that not everybody is going to believe in the same things you believe in? Everything has gradation. Their are gradations in the gods and there is gradation in the forms of God. Krishna has more qualities than Vishnu, Vishnu has more qualities than Siva, Siva has more qualities than Brahma, Brahma is superior to Indra etc.etc. The shastra is full of such comparative gradation. If you don't like gradation ,then you surely won't like shastra. It appears that you to the monist idea that everyone is all ONE and the same and there is no such thing as spiritual gradation.

Srila Sridhar Maharaja has said that Siva-tattva is beyond our understanding. Siva-tattva is very mysterious, but I like Srila Prabhupada's version that Siva is simultaneously Vishnu and jiva and that is why Siva-tattva is so difficult to grasp. Siva doesn't fit into Vishnu-tattva or jiva tattva. He is simultaneously God and jiva. That is something that is hard to get your mind around, unless and until you understand the concept of shaktyavesha avatar and how Vishnu can enter into a jiva and give that jiva Godly powers. Nothing is impossible for Vishnu. If Vishnu wants to make a jiva into Vishnu-tattva, he can certainly do so. He can also make a jiva into a combination of jiva and Vishnu-tattva as is the case with Lord Siva.

Madhya 20.273 purport:

So, you are saying you know everything in all the shastra and you can affirm without doubt that there is nothing anywhere in any shastra that says that Vishnu is a devotee Krishna or that Balarama is the first expansion of Krishna?

That Siva is a devotee of Krishna is not a mystery. Even Lord Vishnu is a devotee of Krishna. Even Lord Balarama, the first expansion of Krishna is a devotee of Krishna. Krishna is God, all others, even Balarama, Vishnu and Siva are devotees of the Supreme Krsna. There is ONE God - Krsna. Everyone, even Balarama, Vishnu and Siva are his servants. That is the Gaudiya siddhanta. trust me...............

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The Saraswata Gaudiya Sampradaya is the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya that comes in the disciplic line of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami. The Saraswata sampradaya is distinguished from other Gaudiya parivars in some ways that separate it from some of the other Gaudiya parivars of India. So, the "Saraswata" designation is meant to distinguish a particular branch of the Gaudiya Vaishnavas. Even in Gaudiya Vaishnavism there are sects with slight variants on siddhanta and sadhana etc.

So you think Gaudiya Vaishnavas have no understanding of monism? You obviously know nothing about Gaudiya Vaishnavism. If you have some proof that somebody said nirvikalpa is false, then you should present evidence or desist from making unsupported claims. You are obviously a very angry and bitter person looking for a fight.

1 nirvikalpa mfn. (or %{-pana} L.) not admitting an alternative , free from change or differences , Tejob. Up. Veda7ntas. ; admitting no doubt , not wavering Bhartr2. (%{am}) ind. without hesitation or reflection Pan5c. ; %{-vAda} and %{-vicAra} m. N. of wks.

Sorry, but all these purports are primary based on commentaries by Sridhar Swami, Madhvacarya, Jiva Goswami, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur etc. The purports follow the conclusions and commentaries of the previous acharyas. Obviously, you don't know enough to be speaking out and exposing your lack of understanding.

So, you came to lecture us all about how much better we would be if we were all like you? It doesn't appear you have anything to contribute to the topic apart from chastising those who have worked hard to provide some shastric material on this topic. If you can't do anything more than criticize those who are on this topic trying to make some discussion, then maybe you can start a nice topic about something you do like. Debate and disagreement enters into about every topic that comes up on the forum. If everybody in India agrees on everything then why do they have more religions there than in any country in the world? You are here trying to correct the error in our understanding, so what makes you any different than the rest of us who have our own understanding that does not agree with other views. You don't agree with us and you are lecturing and attempting to correct our misunderstanding. So, what makes you different from any of us?

In all the major religions of the world, God is always conceived of as a male figure. In India, there are some cults that think that God is female, but they are a small segment of the human population. So, the shaktas of India shouldn't think that they can broadcast all over the world that God is female and expect a very sympathetic response. God is father. Nature is Mother. The combination of the two have given us birth in this world. That is the most common belief is human civilization. The idea that God is female is simply comical to most people of the world.

SB 2.4.13 purport: so, yes there are paramahansas among the brahmanandi impersonalist.

Only in the eyes of a child who does not know who is his father.

According to the Bhagavat, the Sun was not a fiery orb at first. All the planets actually come out of the same lotus flower that Lord Brahma appears on. In seed form the planets come of that lotus flower that grows from the navel ocean of Garbhodakashayi Vishnu. The Sun becomes the Sun when Lord Narayana enters into it as the Sun God. The Bhagavat describes that before the Sun was glowing with fire it was just a dull orb within space.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.12.43 ayi vyapaśyas tvam ajasya māyāḿ parasya puḿsaḥ para-devatāyāḥ ahaḿ kalānām ṛṣabho 'pi muhye yayāvaśo 'nye kim utāsvatantrāḥ SYNONYMS ayi — oh; vyapaśyaḥ — have seen; tvam — you; ajasya — of the unborn; māyām — the illusory energy; parasya puḿsaḥ — of the Supreme Person; para-devatāyāḥ — the Absolute Truth; aham — myself; kalānām — of plenary portions; ṛṣabhaḥ — the chief; api — although; muhye — became bewildered; yayā — by her; avaśaḥ — imperceptibly; anye — others; kim uta — what to speak of; asvatantrāḥ — fully dependent on māyā. TRANSLATION Lord Śiva said: O Goddess, you have now seen the illusory energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the unborn master of everyone. Although I am one of the principal expansions of His Lordship, even I was illusioned by His energy. What then is to be said of others, who are fully dependent on māyā?

Srila Prabhupada states in Bhagavatam that Lord Siva is neither Vishnu tattva or jiva tattva, but is some form of entity between the two. Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.12.39 ko nu me 'titaren māyāḿ viṣaktas tvad-ṛte pumān tāḿs tān visṛjatīḿ bhāvān dustarām akṛtātmabhiḥ SYNONYMS kaḥ — what; nu — indeed; me — My; atitaret — can surpass; māyām — illusory energy; viṣaktaḥ — attached to material sense enjoyment; tvat-ṛte — except for you; pumān — person; tān — such conditions; tān — unto the materially attached persons; visṛjatīm — in surpassing; bhāvān — reactions of material activities; dustarām — very difficult to surmount; akṛta-ātmabhiḥ — by persons unable to control their senses. TRANSLATION My dear Lord Śambhu, who within this material world but you can surpass My illusory energy? People are generally attached to sense enjoyment and conquered by its influence. Indeed, the influence of material nature is very difficult for them to surmount. PURPORT Of the three chief demigods — Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara — all but Viṣṇu are under the influence of māyā. In Caitanya-caritāmṛta, they are described as māyī, which means "under māyā's influence." But even though Lord Śiva associates with māyā, he is not influenced. The living entities are affected by māyā, but although Lord Śiva apparently associates with māyā, he is not affected. In other words, all living entities within this material world except for Lord Śiva are swayed by māyā. Lord Śiva is therefore neither viṣṇu-tattva nor jīva-tattva. He is between the two.

Originally Posted by primate You seem to have missed the part that says "like that of Lord Visnu". This power is not the same; it's not 'all-pervasiveness'.. then you are saying that they their power is UNLIKE that of Lord Vishnu. you just contradicted Srila Prabhupada who says they have power LIKE Lord Vishnu. If they are not all-pervasive, they are not LIKE Lord Vishnu.

Originally Posted by shiva You don't understanding this statement: They are endowed with a special power like that of Lord Viṣṇu, who is actually all-pervading in their activities. It says Vishnu is all-pervading and empowers Brahma and Shiva, it doesn't say Brahma and Shiva are all-pervading. Only God is all-pervading. You seem to have missed the part that says "They are endowed with a special power like that of Lord Viṣṇu" They are endowed with special power like that of Lord Vishnu. If "Vishnu" means all pervading then having "special power like Lord Vishnu", means all-pervading. All the guna-avatars are all-pervading in the universe. Otherwise, how does Lord Brahma and Lord Siva hear the prayers of their devotees? It is elementary siddhanta that all the guna-avatars are all pervading in the universe. Only a dimwit would not know that.

In other words, Shiva, you need to study 8th Canto Srimad Bhagavatam and save yourself from your silly idea that Lord Siva is ever a jiva. http://vedabase.net/sb/8/7/en

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.34 tat tasya te sad-asatoḥ parataḥ parasya nāñjaḥ svarūpa-gamane prabhavanti bhūmnaḥ brahmādayaḥ kim uta saḿstavane vayaḿ tu tat-sarga-sarga-viṣayā api śakti-mātram SYNONYMS tat — therefore; tasya — of that; te — of Your Lordship; sat-asatoḥ — of the living entities, moving and not moving; parataḥ — transcendentally situated; parasya — very difficult to understand; na — nor; añjaḥ — as it is; svarūpa-gamane — to approach your reality; prabhavanti — it is possible; bhūmnaḥ — O great one; brahma-ādayaḥ — even such persons as Lord Brahmā; kim uta — what to speak of others; saḿstavane — in offering prayers; vayam tu — as far as we are concerned; tat — of you; sarga-sarga-viṣayāḥ — creations of the creation; api — although; śakti-mātram — to our ability. TRANSLATION Even personalities like Lord Brahmā and other demigods cannot understand your position, for you are beyond the moving and nonmoving creation. Since no one can understand you in truth, how can one offer you prayers? It is impossible. As far as we are concerned, we are creatures of Lord Brahmā's creation. Under the circumstances, therefore, we cannot offer you adequate prayers, but as far as our ability allows, we have expressed our feelings.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.33 ye tv ātma-rāma-gurubhir hṛdi cintitāńghri- dvandvaḿ carantam umayā tapasābhitaptam katthanta ugra-paruṣaḿ nirataḿ śmaśāne te nūnam ūtim avidaḿs tava hāta-lajjāḥ SYNONYMS ye — persons who; tu — indeed; ātma-rāma-gurubhiḥ — by those who are self-satisfied and who are considered to be spiritual masters of the world; hṛdi — within the heart; cintita-ańghri-dvandvam — thinking of your two lotus feet; carantam — moving; umayā — with your consort, Umā; tapasā abhitaptam — highly advanced through practice of austerity and penance; katthante — criticize your acts; ugra-paruṣam — not a gentle person; niratam — always; śmaśāne — in the crematorium; te — such persons; nūnam — indeed; ūtim — such activities; avidan — not knowing; tava — your activities; hāta-lajjāḥ — shameless. TRANSLATION Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Umā, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities. PURPORT Lord Śiva is the topmost Vaiṣṇava (vaiṣṇavānāḿ yathā śambhuḥ). It is therefore said, vaiṣṇavera kriyā-mudrā vijñe nā bujhaya. Even the most intelligent person cannot understand what a Vaiṣṇava like Lord Śiva is doing or how he is acting. Those who are conquered by lusty desires and anger cannot estimate the glories of Lord Śiva, whose position is always transcendental. In all the activities associated with lusty desires, Lord Śiva is an implement of ātma-rāma. Ordinary persons, therefore, should not try to understand Lord Śiva and his activities. One who tries to criticize the activities of Lord Śiva is shameless.

Even Lord Vishnu does not understand the Brahmajyoti. Only Lord Siva can comprehend it. Vishnu in his form as Lord Siva comprehends the Brahmajyoti, but Lord Vishnu does not. Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.31 na te giri-trākhila-loka-pāla- viriñca-vaikuṇṭha-surendra-gamyam jyotiḥ paraḿ yatra rajas tamaś ca sattvaḿ na yad brahma nirasta-bhedam SYNONYMS na — not; te — of Your Lordship; giri-tra — O King of the mountains; akhila-loka-pāla — all the directors of departments of material activities; viriñca — Lord Brahmā; vaikuṇṭha — Lord Viṣṇu; sura-indra — the King of heaven; gamyam — they can understand; jyotiḥ — effulgence; param — transcendental; yatra — wherein; rajaḥ — the mode of passion; tamaḥ ca — and the mode of ignorance; sattvam — the mode of goodness; na — not; yat brahma — which is impersonal Brahman; nirasta-bhedam — without distinction between demigods and human beings. TRANSLATION O Lord Girīśa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahmā, Lord Viṣṇu or the King of heaven, Mahendra. PURPORT The brahmajyoti is actually the effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As stated in Brahma-saḿhitā (5.40): yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi- koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam tad brahma niṣkalam anantam aśeṣa-bhūtaḿ govindam ādi-puruṣaḿ tam ahaḿ bhajāmi "I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is endowed with great power. The glowing effulgence of His transcendental form is the impersonal Brahman, which is absolute, complete and unlimited and which displays the varieties of countless planets, with their different opulences, in millions and millions of universes." Although the impersonal feature of the Absolute is an expansion of the rays of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He does not need to take care of the impersonalists who enter the brahmajyoti. Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā (9.4), mayā tatam idaḿ sarvaḿ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā: "In My impersonal feature I pervade this entire universe." Thus the avyakta-mūrti, the impersonal feature, is certainly an expansion of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Māyāvādīs, who prefer to merge into this Brahman effulgence, worship Lord Śiva. The mantras referred to in text 29 are called mukhāni pañcopaniṣadas taveśa. Māyāvādīs take all these mantras seriously in worshiping Lord Śiva. These mantras are as follows: (1) tat puruṣāya vidmahe śāntyai, (2) mahā-devāya dhīmahi vidyāyai, (3) tan no rudraḥ pratiṣṭhāyai, (4) pracodayāt dhṛtyai, (5) aghorebhyas tamā. .., (6) atha ghorebhyo mohā. .., (7) aghorebhyo rakṣā. .., (8) aghoratarebhyo nidrā. .., (9) sarvebhyaḥ sarva-vyādhyai, (10) sarva-sarvebhyo mṛtyave, (11) namas te 'stu kṣudhā. .., (12) rudra-rūpebhyas tṛṣṇā. .., (13) vāmadevāya rajā. .., (14) jyeṣṭhāya svāhā. .., (15) śreṣṭhāya ratyai, (16) rudrāya kalyāṇyai, (17) kālāya kāmā. .., (18) kala-vikaraṇāya sandhinyai, (19) bala-vikaraṇāya kriyā. .., (20) balāya vṛddhyai, (21) balacchāyā. .., (22) pramathanāya dhātryai, (23) sarva-bhūta-damanāya bhrāmaṇyai, (24) manaḥ-śoṣiṇyai, (25) unmanāya jvarā. .., (26) sadyojātaḿ prapadyāmi siddhyai, (27) sadyojātāya vai namaḥ ṛddhyai, (28) bhave dityai, (29) abhave lakṣmyai, (30) nātibhave medhā. .., (31) bhajasva māḿ kāntyai, (32) bhava svadhā. .., (33) udbhavāya prabhā. .., (34) īśānaḥ sarva-vidyānāḿ śaśinyai, (35) īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānām abhaya-dā. .. [bg. 18.61], (36) brahmādhipatir brahmaṇodhipatir brahman brahmeṣṭa-dā. .., (37) śivo me astu marīcyai, (38) sadāśivaḥ jvālinyai. The impersonal Brahman is unknown even to the other directors of the material creation, including Lord Brahmā, Lord Indra and even Lord Viṣṇu. This does not mean, however, that Lord Viṣṇu is not omniscient. Lord Viṣṇu is omniscient, but He does not need to understand what is going on in His all-pervading expansion. Therefore in Bhagavad-gītā the Lord says that although everything is an expansion of Him (mayā tatam idaḿ sarvam), He does not need to take care of everything (na cāhaḿ teṣv avasthitaḥ), since there are various directors like Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva and Indra.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.29 mukhāni pañcopaniṣadas taveśa yais triḿśad-aṣṭottara-mantra-vargaḥ yat tac chivākhyaḿ paramātma-tattvaḿ deva svayaḿ-jyotir avasthitis te SYNONYMS mukhāni — faces; pañca — five; upaniṣadaḥ — Vedic literatures; tava — your; īśa — O lord; yaiḥ — by which; triḿśat-aṣṭa-uttara-mantra-vargaḥ — in the category of thirty-eight important Vedic mantras; yat — that; tat — as it is; śiva-ākhyam — celebrated by the name Śiva; paramātma-tattvam — which ascertain the truth about Paramātmā; deva — O lord; svayam-jyotiḥ — self-illuminated; avasthitiḥ — situation; te — of Your Lordship. TRANSLATION O lord, the five important Vedic mantras are represented by your five faces, from which the thirty-eight most celebrated Vedic mantras have been generated. Your Lordship, being celebrated as Lord Śiva, is self-illuminated. You are directly situated as the supreme truth, known as Paramātmā. PURPORT The five mantras mentioned in this connection are as follows: (1) Puruṣa, (2) Aghora, (3) Sadyojāta, (4) Vāmadeva, and (5) Īśāna. These five mantras are within the category of thirty-eight special Vedic mantras chanted by Lord Śiva, who is therefore celebrated as Śiva or Mahādeva. Another reason why Lord Śiva is called Śiva, which means "all-auspicious," is that he is self-illuminated, exactly like Lord Viṣṇu, who is the Paramātmā. Because Lord Śiva is directly an incarnation of Lord Viṣṇu, he is situated as Lord Viṣṇu's direct representative. This fact is corroborated by a Vedic mantra: patiḿ viśvasyātmeśvaraḿ śāśvatam. śivam acyutam. The Supersoul is called by many names, of which Maheśvara, Śiva and Acyuta are especially mentioned.