Gaurasundara

 

what about those who say that they dont need a guru.

 

 

It is a ridiculous proposal. Everyone acknowledges the fact that even in material world we need to go to a school and learn from the schoolteacher. The same is true of the guru. He teaches spiritual knowledge. So if someone says they don't need a guru, it is tantamount to declaring oneself illiterate and uneducated. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

 

I mean I know krsna says that one should aqquire from a bonafide spiritual master but does that mean initiation or just getting some knowledge.

 

 

Both. Jiva Gosvami says:

 

divyaM jJAnaM yato dadyAt kuryAt pApasya saGkSayam |

tasmAd dIkSeti sA proktA dezikais tattva kovidaiH ||

ato guruM praNamyaivaM sarvasvaM vinivedya ca |

gRhNIyAd vaiSNavaM mantraM dIkSA pUrvaM vidhAnataH ||

 

"The teachers who are knowers of the truth say that since it gives (da) divine knowledge and destroys (ksi) sin it is called diksa. Therefore, paying obeisance to the guru and offering him one's all, one should receive a Vaisnava mantra diksa preceded with proper procedures."

 

Jiva further illuminates the meaning of "divya-jnana", or the divine knowledge which is transmitted in diksa:

 

divyaM jJAnaM hy atra zrImati mantre bhagavat-svarUpa-jJAnaM, tena bhagavatA sambandha-vizeSa-jJAnaM ca |

 

"Divine knowledge means here knowledge of the true nature of the Lord in the mantra and, by that, knowledge of one's own special relationship with Him."

 

Thus the initiation, diksa, will itself fill your heart with transcendental knowledge.

 

 

Also krsna led by example and had a guru himself, even though he didnt need one.

 

 

Exactly! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

You hit the nail right on the head, Haridhamji!

 

This is exactly what I was trying to convey in my previous posting. I fear that what you say may eventually come true. When I heard that the alliance was for "French" Vaishnavas, I just wondered what about Vaishnavas of other nationalities who may be staying in France? Several temples have foreign devotees staying there. My own Bhaktivedanta Manor is the residence of several Vrajavasis from Krishna-Balaram temple in Vrindavana. If a "British Vaishnava Alliance" is set up, are these Vrajavasis to be included?

 

The whole bodily identity thing is so inscrutably complex. I also find it rather shameful that this is the first lesson in Bhagavad-gita that so many do not seem to have mastered yet. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

When we hear of the wonderful lilas of Krsna, and the transcendental knowledge that can be gained from Bhagavad-gita, we suddenly get the urge to express these wonderful things to others. Who better to start with than your immediate environment?

Unfortunately it is not that simple. People who you have known all your life suddenly become incredibly patronising. As one said earlier, they have seen you in nappies. They think that what you are going through is just a "phase" that will pass. Funny that, you know, Jesus was right when he said "a prophet is never recognised in his own country."

 

Yeah I have met many who say Jesus talks to me and he has given me visions but thats to fool an uneducated crowd. I mean if he did talk to them then they would be far more into their spiritual lives, more humble and such.

 

 

I think it's usually the Pentecostals who speak about direct communion with Jesus, since being possessed by the Holy Spirit is a big part of their doctrine. I once was quite close to a Pentecostal friend. We used to discuss religion and she told me that she talks to Jesus on account of her being possessed by the Holy Spirit. I kindly tried to explain to her that it is not possible to communicate with divine figures unless one is "clean" first, and this could not be possible since she smoked, drank, had boyfriends, had sex all over the place, etc. Weird.

Some time later she started aggressively preaching to me that Krishna was a false god and that Jesus was the real one. I was so turned off that I just left. Later she apologised, and even though I have forgiven her I just never spoke to her again uptil today. It really really put me off.

 

told her a few things and she seemed satisfied. Now I am wondering though what is the best way I should talk to her about Krsna if it comes up. Anyone have any suggestions.

 

 

In my experience of discussing religion with Muslims, the best way to go about it would be to gauge exactly how "fanatical" is she? You say she wears a barkha, so I would suspect that she is a very devout Muslim who will hold all or most of the classic strong beliefs.

 

If the topic of Krishna comes up, she is likely to talk against "idol worship" or about God being "depicted" especially as a "man," would I be correct?

 

In which case, ignore the topic of idols for now. It would be interesting to relate how almost every 'proper' religion usually holds a humanlike conception of God. Judaism/Chritianity does, Hinduism does, and so on. Shall I tell you a secret? Muslims also hold a humanlike conception of God, yet they do not know it.

 

 

Some how my teacher said just like the Jahova's Witnesses(not comparing or saying that they are the same thing) and how they like traveling in pairs so they dont loose their faith. Someone said well Religion is a Sham and such, how do I reply to some of these things that are said.

 

 

About the travelling in pairs thing, that can be seen even in the material world. People of are of like-mind will always hang out together. Is there a group of gothic-like kids at your school who wear black clothes and dark make-up? Can you imagine if a preppie hangs out with them? Looks weird, doesn't it?

The same is true of religion as well, in our Vaishnava line it's called "sadhu-sanga," the company of the saints. Even though I doubt anyone could make a claim to be a saint (tongue firmly in cheek! /images/graemlins/wink.gif ), it's a fact that people need the association of those who are of like-mind. Those who have no association at all are usually quite lonely people, and that's not a nice existence.

 

About religion being a sham, everyone is entitled to their opinion? And they will also have no right to ridicule you because you are also entitled to your opinion?

 

Then he turned to everybody in the room and said,"This is disgusting. This is not how vaishnavas behave. You knew that Sudama needed help. You knew that Sudama was crying out in maya, and you ignored him. This is not vaishnava behaviour. A true vaishnava," he said, "would have taken him by the hand earlier on so that this would never have taken place."

 

 

I can relate to this. It's a pity that this mentality of "not caring" for devotees has somehow spread all over ISKCON and its branches, despite the fact that Srila Prabhupada finds it "disgusting"

 

I take refuge in stories like this every time a "devotee" treats me bad. Thanks, Govindaramji!

Haribol! I read that article on VNN but came away with mixed feelings.

 

I do appreciate the outlook and purpose of the alliance, but at the same time I feel worried that everybody seems to be splitting off into "camps." Is this sectarian mentality dangerous? There seems to be a "camp" for everything nowadays?

A guru is certainly necessary for the purpose of taking diksa. However, the guru also represents the localized embodiment of the Deity that we serve.

 

Yasya prasadad bhagavat prasado..

 

but does it state anywhere not to eat meat period?

 

 

There are some scattered references here and there in the Hadiths, but obviously I am sure that Muslims do not take them seriously.

I have some thoughts on what Bhakta Dan wrote. If we pray to a previous Acharya, say Srila Bhaktivinoda, then is it Srila Bhaktivinoda himself who hears/responds to the prayer (vyasti-guru), or is it the samasti-guru who hears/responds?

What does this prove?

Can anyone kindly tell me (especially those who have Vedabase) what Srila Prabhupada said about demigod-murtos being sold in ISKCON temples?

 

Quotes would be useful. Thanks!

Krishna was part of a team of 'gods' to defeat the evil David Blaine, because David Blaine was the leader of an evil cult meant to take over the world.

 

Tongue firmly in cheek. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

***No it's not from the First Canto of Srimad-bhagavatam. It is from Chapter 31 of "Teachings of Lord Caitanya."

 

Needs learn - 1st canto, then 2 canto, then 3 canto...then 10 canto.

 

 

Funny, this is for reading Srimad-bhagavatam. I am not reading Srimad-bhagavatam, I am reading TLC.

 

 

You know Lord Brahma?

 

 

No, I have never met him personally.

 

 

Only small boys go for this "madhurya".

 

 

Then unfortunately, you are a "small boy" according to your own standards. Throughout Srila Prabhupada's books, he only preaches that madhurya-bhava is the topmost level of realization. More than that, it is the sacred gift of Mahaprabhu in only this Kali-yuga. Why should only small boys get it? Everyone should get it! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

I don't see any problem in Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's teaching here. This is siddhanta.

 

 

"The disciple is never said to have developed deep devotional attachment (rati) as long as impediments (anarthas) are not removed. The disciple who is still contaminated with these impediments is never taught the science of intimate devotional mellows (rasa-tattva)."

 

 

According to Rupa Gosvami, the stage of rati is attained after the stage of anartha-nivritti anyway. It is obvious that one cannot attain rati without first undergoing anartha-nivritti.

 

As a side-note, what is anartha-nivritti and how long does it last? Srimad Visvanatha Cakravarti clearly states that anarthas may be present in the advanced devotee until he attains the stage of prema. So really, it is possible to be in rati yet still contain anarthas, if only they are in a subtle form.

 

First, how are anarthas removed? That has already been answered in my previous post; contemplate the sublime sweet sacred lilas of Sri Krishna.

 

 

"A devotee should never speak on the topics of devotional mellows to one who has weak, pliable faith. A devotee should never attempt to bestow the qualification for rasa upon one who is unqualified to receive it."

 

 

Again, there is no problem here. This is on a par with the ninth offence againt the holy name. If this is considered to be an offence against only the name, then how much more should we be careful about the lilas, forms, qualities, and so on, about Krishna.

 

Ultimately, every devotee risks committing the ninth offence every time he attempts to preach or sell a book on the street.

 

And as stated by Srila Jiva Gosvami in my last post, a person with "weak plaible faith" and who is likely to suffer adverse reactions to Krsna-lila should not bother to inquire about it anyway.

 

We should take the example of Prabhupad and realise that people who hear this pastimes will compare them to their mundane life and act them out. Many people are lusty and they mistake that for love.

 

 

vikrIDitaM vraja-vadhUbhir idaM ca viSNoH |

zraddhAnvito yaH zRNuyAd atha varNayed vA ||

bhaktiM parAM bhagavati parilabhya kAmaM |

hRd-rogam Azv apahinoty acireNa dhIraH || (Bhag. 10.33.39)

 

“One who faithfully hears or describes the loving sports of Sri Krishna and the young maidens of Vraja will quickly drive away the heart-disease of lust, become sober, and attain supramundane devotion of the Lord.”

 

However,

 

kintu rahasya-lIlA tu pauruSa-vikAravad indriyaiH pitR-putra-dAsa-bhAvaiz ca nopAsyA svIya-bhAva-virodhAt |

rahasyatvaM ca tasyAH kvacid alpAMzena kvacit tu sarvAMzeneti jJeyam || - Bhakti-sandarbha Anuccheda 338

 

“However, these secret sports are not to be worshiped by those who experience male transformations in their senses, or by those who are in the moods of father, son and servant, for it would be contrary to their moods. Confidentiality is understood according to the partial or complete touching of limbs.”

http://vnn.org/publication/PB0310/PB25-8421.html

 

Upon reading the nectarean books of Srimad Gour Govinda Maharaja, a sadhaka discovers a boundless ocean of sweet hari-katha that transports him to a state of highest bliss. The sublime truths of Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta have been explained so flawlessly in simple language by Maharaja, bringing great joy to the heart of the reader so much so that he is left clamouring for more. After reading such highly elevated teachings, the sadhaka may wish to discuss the subject in the association of like-minded devotees.

 

Where is the place to sit and discuss Maharaja's teachings and benefit from the sweet hari-katha thereof? Where is the place to associate with other godbrothers and godsisters? Where is the place to attain bliss by regularly meditating on Maharaja's vani?

 

It is our pleasure to announce the formation of a new mailing list: Gour Govinda Katha.

 

gourgovindakatha/

 

This group has been created so that disciples and admirers of His Divine Grace Om Visnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajakacharya 108 Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja may congregate here in order to celebrate the life and teachings of this highly elevated Vaishnava, post stories, share memories, anything at all, that are all related to Srimad Gour Govinda Maharaja.

 

To , simply send an email to:

 

gourgovindakatha-@

 

In case of any problems, please write to: gaurasundara_108@ and specify your choice of mailing; Individual mails, Daily Digests or Special Notices.

 

It is my most fervent and humble wish that this group is most successful in this regard.

 

Your servant,

 

Moderator, Gour Govinda Katha

 

As far as the pilgrims are concerned, the shaving of hair is intended as a sacrifice to the Lord. One is sacrificing one's pride and vanity (by giving up one's hair) to stand before the Lord without such impediments in the way.

 

 

Interesting! I figured out this sentiment as that relates to ethics. But I wonder if it is enjoined to do so in any of the local sthala-puranas there?

 

If so, what is the legend behind it, etc.?

I don't know about any "good message" as the cartoon itself is a bit of an adult comedy. However I did not perceive anything that could be taken as offensive, lest we can be assured that there would have been a national outcry.

 

It was quite funny ti watch, though. The only "offensive" thing I could see was that Jesus did not have enough power to defeat David Blaine, this is why he needed the help of the other gods.

Bigger things have happened.

 

Have any of you seen that 'South Park' episode where those three silly kids team up with Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Lao-Tzu and Moses, in order to defeat the evil DAVID BLAINE?

 

Now that was one hilarious thing! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

When I used to live in South India, I often met with families who had been to the Tirupati shrine. All the women in these families had had their heads shaved, whether they were old women or little girls. I didn't think that they saw it as a problem, rather they did what was "par for the course" when going to Tirupathi.

 

I also have a fascination with this custom of head-shaving. Why does anyone shave their heads when going to Tirupathi? What is the reason behind it? Is there soemthing in the scriptures about it? I would like to know.

 

To get back to your question, I am not a woman and so I cannot give advice! /images/graemlins/grin.gif I can only say that I saw a lot of women who did shave their heads and I've also seen those who have not. It's really up to you to decide, I guess. Haribol!

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

My reading of Umapati Swami's statement is that he sees his role, and the role of Dipika, as a forum for ISKCON insiders, where they can read articles that relate to issues within ISKCON.

 

 

That may be so, but I don't recall hearing that Tripurari Maharaja deliberately published his edition of BG to antagonise ISKCON or their followers. Umapati Maharaja made his point that Tripurari Maharaja is not connected with ISKCON and that Srila Prabhupada desired people not to go out of ISKCON to see instruction, and rightly said that there was no valid reason why Danavir Maharaja should have been reading the text in the first place

 

However I did find Umapati Maharaja's statements very alarming. "Here is what I will turn away: just about anything else, including examples of previous acaryas if these examples cannot be corroborated by proof from Srila Prabhupada, any other kind of proof that is not corroborated by Srila Prabhupada.

 

I'll have to agree with Madhava in this matter. I would love to make an individual contribution but I notice that everyone else has already said what I wanted to say, so repetition of these points will not be of any use.

 

Yes from 1st canto.

 

 

No it's not from the First Canto of Srimad-bhagavatam. It is from Chapter 31 of "Teachings of Lord Caitanya."

 

 

SP write - "first clen, second - meditate."

 

 

And how exactly do we become "clean"? Rather, the meditation is itself the cleaning process.

 

Your sravanam and kirtanam is itself the cause of smaranam.

I doubt there would be any point. I even know of a couple of verses from Valmiki Ramayana that suggest that Rama ate meat. I discussed these with the Mahvacharya followers who are good at Sanskrit, and they explained alternative translations for the verses in question.

 

So it all depends how you translate. The verse can either say Rama ate meat, or that He ate fruit and nuts, depending which translation you pick. Personally I take the latter option, for obvious reasons.