Gaurasundara

 

It should be wellknown that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura himself firmly disapproved of slander like this, and himself worshipped his Gurudeva Vipin Vihari Goswami with choice phrases.

 

 

Individuals like Neal Delmonico, Madhavananda, Jan Brezinski etc once worshipped Srila Prabhupada with choice phrases. That was before they changed gurus. But given the first statement, can I safely conclude that they are still Prabhupada disciples and that they won't object to this characterization?

 

If you know the correct answer, then you know why your own statement is itself begging the question.

 

 

Well I think you are getting slightly off-topic here. Of course I know about the situations of the individuals you mentioned, but this doesn't reflect on the issue of Srila Bhaktivinoda.

 

As Jagat (Jan) himself has just said, there is all evidence to suggest that Srila Bhaktivinoda presented his guru as Vipin Vihari Goswami. There is no evidence to even suggest the contrary. Besides, if you were allowed to ask Srila Bhaktivinoda today who his guru is, what do you think he would say?

 

I still say that Srila Bhaktivinoda accepted Vipin Vihari Goswami as his eternal spiritual master. No one else is authorised to state a different opinion. The evidence for this is contained in Srila Bhaktivinoda's own writings:

 

vipina-vihArI hari tAnra zakti avatari

vipina-vihArI prabhu-vara

zrI-guru-gosvAmI-rUpe dekhi more bhava-kUpe

uddharila Apana kinkara

 

“Krishna, known as Bipin Bihari, made his energy descend into this world as Bipin Bihari Goswami, my lord. Seeing me, his humble servant, in the dark well of worldly existence, he took the form of my spiritual master me delivered him.” (AmRta-pravAha-bhASya, p. 1687)

 

vipina-vihArI prabhu mama prabhu-vara

zrI-vaMzI-vadanAnanda-vaMza-zazadhara

“My exalted spiritual master, Vipina-vihari Prabhu, is the brilliant moon in the family of Sri Vamsi Vadanananda.”

 

 

When will Vilasa Manjari and Ananga Manjari [Jahnava Mata] see me and, being merciful, speak the follow essential words?

 

O Vilasa Manjari, Ananga Manjari and Rupa Manjari, please notice me and accept me at your feet, bestowing on me the essence of all perfection?

 

It should be noted that 'Vilasa Manjari' was the siddha name of Vipin Vihari prabhu.

 

Oh yes, and let's not forget that Vipin Vihari Goswami was the guru chosen for Srila Bhaktivinoda by no less than Mahaprabhu Himself!

 

I'm not sure what I think about Urmila's nomination to initiate disciples (she's awfully conservative, but she has been a solid disciple for 30 years), but this campaign of slander has riled me.

 

 

I fully agree. I do not personally know Urmila dasi. In fact, all I know of her is all of the articles she has been publishing in BTG for years. Besides that, she visted our temples her ein the UK sometime last year, and even wrote an article about her visit in BTG. I did not have the opportunity to meet her, but I heard from my Vaishnava and Vaishnavi friends that she had given extraordinary lectures and that she is a devotee of some exceptional realisations and enlightenment.

 

I also agree that this campaign of slander is thoroughly disgusting. I still say that in the recent posts I have not seen a single question about her qualification. The idea about "politics" seems to be almost totally about gender and I find that shameless.

 

And here's me thinking we are not our bodies. This just shows how ISKCON is not even out of the Dark Ages.

 

Gaurasundara

 

P.S. And one more note. Those who know me would also know that I am/was an ultra-conservative type of person who also has rather strong opinions on certian issues. But even I accept that:

 

a) There is a history of female gurus in Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

b) Nothing is required for a guru except qualification.

c) Srila Prabhupada himself accepted the possibility of female gurus.

 

These three facts alone are the sum and substance of the whol issue.

 

Wrong again. When Srila Prabhupada drew up the list for the first GBC, several women were on that list.

 

--

 

News to me. Good to hear it. How do you know this? Can you give any sources or quotes or dates? Could prove very helpful.

 

 

Well in one of my last posts, I said that this was written in a 1999 issue of BTG in an article by Visakha-devi. Visakha-devi is a senior female disciple of Srila Prabhupada who has been writing female-oriented articles in BTG for years. Besides that, another site was provided that stated that Govinda and Yamuna dasis were probably the first nominated female GBCs, nominated by Srila Prabhupada himself.

What you makes you think that Pratyatosa was a devoted husband?

 

As for the rest of your posting, it is so chauvinistic and degrading towards women that it barely needs comment.

I found just a brief statement:

 

"Srila Prabhupada trusted Govinda dasi to the extent that when he first formed the GBC, he selected Govinda dasi and Yamuna dasi to serve on it." - http://www.adi-vani.org/authors.php

 

Otherwise I couldn't find the quotes that you were referring to, perhaps someone else has them.

However, I found some interesting stuff about Yamuna devi, an extremely senior disciple of Srila Prabhupada:

 

 

So far your question regarding women, I have always accepted the service of women without any discrimination, so I have no objection if Yamuna devi contributes her ideas on this construction project. Nothing should be done without group consultation. (letter to Guru Das, 1972)

 

Srila Prabhupada had Yamuna (one of our best singers) lead kirtans in front of crowds of guests and devotees, which included of course sannyasis and brahmacaris. * Yamuna, Lilavati, Kausalya, and later Parijata, Jyotirmayi and many others used to routinely lead kirtans.

 

In every ISKCON temple of the world the assembled devotees offer their obeisances to the Deities in the morning as the Govindam prayers loudly play. George Harrison recorded it, and Yamuna sings the mantras. Disturbed by this custom, Jaysacinandana quoted Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur (as well as Srila Prabhupada) that if a brahmacari hears and is attracted to a woman’s singing, it is a subtle fall down. "In light of this, he wrote, many of the brahmacaris approached the temple president to see if it would be possible that when the Deities are greeted in the morning, instead of listening to Gurudasa Maharaja’s former wife singing the Brahma-samhita prayers, we could listen to Your Divine Grace rather than hear a woman sing." He did not want to change the tape because it has been a standard thing in ISKCON since 1970. "So requested by many devotees, I am inquiring from Your Divine Grace if we could play a tape recording of your singing instead of a woman when the Deities of Rukmini Dvarkadhisha are greeted in the morning. I am sure that all the devotees would be enlivened to hear you instead of electric guitars, the London symphonic orchestra, etc., etc......"

 

Prabhupada was not pleased. He said that constantly changing things is "our Western disease." His reply was short and direct. "No! You have made some discovery. All along you have been hearing the recording of Yamuna dasi and now you want to change. It is not ordinary singing, it is not concert. Many people are singing, so it is not bad. Just like Sankirtana. I approve of it. Here in the Krishna-Balarama temple we are hearing the same recording every morning. So if it is good here, why not there?" (Hari Sauri, Dec 1975, Vrndavan, "A Transcendental Diary.")

 

Srila Prabhupada said about Yamuna in the early 70’s that she had reached the stage of bhava.

 

-- http://www.vaisnavi.com/Articles/Women%20in%20ISKCON%20in%20Prabhupada's%20Time.htm

 

 

A collection of articles by female disciples of Srila Prabhupada published in the ISKCON Communications Journal -- http://www.iskcon.com/icj/8_1/women.html

 

"In late 1974, not long after I had left my householder asrama, Srila Prabhupada pronounced it ‘good that you have left your husband’, and encouraged me to become a ‘sannyasini’." -- http://www.iskcon.com/icj/8_1/yamuna.html

 

And check out this site: http://www.vaisnavi.com/Articles/Articles.htm

 

There's a whole section about becoming gurus!

 

I think what he is saying that there is no precedent for it in the Vedic texts like Srimad Bhagavatam. Even in our Gaudiya literature there is almost no precedent for such practice and most of what we know about any female gurus in the sampradaya is coming down through sadhu and not shastra.

The Vedic texts have no examples of female gurus in the strict sense of diksha guru acharyas. At least the order of disciplic succession of the Gaudiya sampradaya does not contain any female gurus in the chain. If the acharyas would have wanted exemplary female acharyas in the line of succession they would have included them in the list of acharyas in the parampara.

 

 

Stonehearted (Babhru das) has just posted enough evidence that shows conclusively that females have always acted as gurus in the Gaudiya tradition. This in itself shows that you are incorrect when you say that the Gaudiya disciplic successions have not included females. In fact, the very quote that I posted earlier is a quote from Srila Prabhupada. Even he acknowledged that Jahnava Devi was a guru.

 

 

The Saraswata Gaudiya acharyas in the past have not introduced any females into the order of the acharya succession and it would be a departure from the tradition if female devotees become represented in the parampara of ISKCON.

 

 

Now the context of your point becomes slightly clearer in that you seem to be talking only of the Sarasvata Gaudiyas. Sadly, you are again incorrect since Srila Prabhupada himself just acknowledged that Jahnava Devi was a guru. Why should Srila Prabhupada have prevented it happening in ISKCON when he allows the possibility of it happening at all? His quote shows that perhaps the only thing required is a sound knowledge of Krsna-tattva. Nityananda is included in the disciplic succession of the Sarasvata Gaudiyas, that means His Wife is also included. How can it not be?

 

 

Prabhupada had many female disciples yet he never appointed any of them to the GBC or named them as ritviks. If Prabhupada would have desired that women in the movement be given such positions he would have established the precedent by appointing some as ritviks or GBC.

 

 

Wrong again. When Srila Prabhupada drew up the list for the first GBC, several women were on that list. Why those women did not become a GBC is not known, but the simple fact that Srila Prabhupada included their names on the list shows that he allowed the possibility. Moreover, did you know that to start ISKCON's mission in England, Srila Prabhupada sent three married couples to do this task? Why did he do that, if he didn't allow women to have any form of power? And it is thanks to those three married couples that we have ISKCON in England.

Also, did you know that Srila Prabhupada also allowed the possibility of women becoming temple presidents?

 

 

Prabhupada gave strict orders not to change anything after his departure. That means don't add or subtract to what he has given. Adding women to the already controversial diksha guru order of ISKCON is a change to the established standard of Srila Prabhupada. It should not be adopted.

 

 

Well basically, I see that you are presenting a most bold opinion under an anonymous identity. Why do that if you are obviously proud of your views? Your above comment is itself incorrect considering that Srila Prabhupada himself is on record as allowing the possibility of females taking places of power in ISKCON. Just because it never happened during his presence does not necessarily mean it is not to be adopted. By that logic, Srila Prabhupada unfortunately did not finish his magnum opus, Srimad-Bhagavatam. Does this mean that the work should have been left unfinished?

 

Basically I think your opinions are out of line with even basic Krishna Conscious philosophy. It's the same simple philosophy that "you are not the body," therefore why should women be denied positions of power in ISKCON simply because they are females? In your entire post I didn't see one logical point about the qualifications of females to take up responsible positions. I find that to be a most disturbing and chauvinistic attitude.

This is what is written in the article "What's a Woman To Do?" by Visakha-devi-dasi, published in BTG Mar/Apr 1999:

 

 

[June 18, 1976]Professor O'Connell of the University of Toronto asked Prabhupada, "Is it possible, Swamiji, for a woman to be a guru in the line of disciplic succession?"

Srila Prabhupada replied, "Yes. Jahnava Devi was Nityananda's wife. She became. [Jahnava Devi was an initiating spiritual master who had male disciples.] If she is able to go to the highest perfection of life, why is it not possible to become a guru? But not so many. Actually one who has attained the perfection, she can become a guru. But man or woman, unless one has attained the perfection ... Yei krsna-tattva-vetta sei guru haya. The qualification of the guru is that he must be fully cognizant of the science of Krsna. Then he or she can become a guru. Yei krsna-tattva-vetta sei guru haya. In the material world, is there any prohibition that a woman cannot become a professor? If she is qualified, she can become a professor. What is the wrong there? She must be qualified. That is the position. So similarly, if the woman understands Krsna consciousness perfectly, she can become a guru."

 

 

 

The first example is when Srila Bhaktivode Thakur received Diksha from Vipina Bihari. While the latter was symbolically placing his foot upon the former's head, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, only a young boy, got up and protested, saying to the effect that his father was a far greater devotee than Vipin Bihari.

 

The second example is when Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada gave diksha to Srila Bhakti-vivek Bharati Maharaj. Bharati Maharaj had already received diksha from Bipin Bihari, thus it would be fair to conclude that Bhaktisiddhanta did not consider Bipin Bihari's initiation of Bharati Maharaj to be bonefide.

 

 

What proof do you have that suggests that these stories are true?

 

It should be wellknown that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura himself firmly disapproved of slander like this, and himself worshipped his Gurudeva Vipin Vihari Goswami with choice phrases.

I thought that the ISKCON temple in Bangalore, India, was the biggest ISKCON temple in the world. And very nice it is too!

 

One of the most memorable features of this temple is that as you walk up the steps to the temple, you are required to take off your socks as well as your shoes. The reason is because there is water seeping out from under a high step for the purpose of allowing the pilgrims to wash their feet before entering the temple. To me, that was perhaps one of the most attractive things about this wonderful wonderful temple in Bangalore.

If you have the book, then could I ask you to kindly give me some scriptural quotes from it? It is important that scriptural quotes are given, as these are what is needed for my project, about the duty and absolute care for the young.

 

Thank you, Hare Krishna.

Dear devotees,

 

Please be kind enough to send me a list of scriptural quotes that speak of the duty and absolute care for the young. I need as many sastric quotes as possible

for an upcoming project.

 

Please note that it is mainly scriptural quotes that are needed for this project. Srila Prabhupada's purports/sayings are not strictly required, but they would be nice to read and to share with all the receiving devotees.

 

Please help me in this regard.

 

Hare Krishna!

 

And there is also that quote in Sri Guru and His Grace about the lady gurus in the predecessor list of Vipin Vihari Goswami. But those lady gurus were not accepted by Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati. Also, in regard to Gangamata Goswamini, she was apparently the Guru of the initiating Guru of Srila Jagannatha das Babaji Maharaj. But again, the name of Gangamata Goswamini is not mentioned in the parampara list given by Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati.

 

 

I wonder why.

 

 

Another lady guru who comes to mind is the Lady who gave transcendental initiation to Syamananda Prabhu. She was certainly qualified.

 

 

Certainly She was qualified! Syamananda was initiated by no less than Lalita-sakhi Herself!

 

 

Personally I believe Urmila didi is a good devotee and not disqualified from being a Guru, but what standard of Guru is she? Uttama, Madhyama, Kanistha? I cannot say.

 

 

We can also ask the same of all the past and present GBC gurus. Why not ask this question just because they are males?