Gaurasundara

Dear Radha-Govinda prabhu,

 

I followed your posts in the other thread but was disheartened to see that you had not registered a profile here, and was even more disheartened that the thread was closed and there was no way of getting in touch with you. I am happy to see you here again, and I would appreciate if you could get in touch with me by PM'ing me your email address or whatever and we can continue talking by email. I hope you agree, I admired the content of your posts very much.

I am trying to change and become more gentle. What else can I do?

Dear Theist, I very much applaud this attitude of yours. This is what Vaishnavism is all about. Thank you.

I rather think that the jiva-soul, size being a ten-thousandth part of a tip of hair, may be out of the reach of scientific instruments. Compare this with the description of the Paramatma who is supposedly eight inches long, and cannot be discovered by scientific instuments either!

Can any Vaishnava hold himself when contemplating the explosive joy and gladness of the first meeting of Gauracandra and Nityananda?? When Gauracandra stood directly in front of Nityananda, the latter recognised Him as the lord of His life. Gauracandra indicated to Srivasa to recite a verse from Bhagavatam (barhApIDaM..), upon which Nityananda lost consciousness in ecstasy and fell to the ground after hearing it. After awaking, He roared in anand and danced up for joy, sighed deeply while gazing upon the beautiful face of Gauracandra and laughed loudly, clapping his hands and displaying all the ecstatic symptoms. The sight was frightening to some of the assembled Vaishnavas, who feared that Nityananda may hurt himself in the extremes of ecstasy.

 

 

 

 

dharite nArilA yadi vaiSNava-sakale

vizvambhara lailena ApanAra kole

 

 

When all the Vaishnavas failed to hold Him still, Vishvambhara personally took Him on His lap.

 

 

 

vizvambhara-kole mAtra gelA nityAnanda

samarpiyA prANa tAne hailA niSpanda

 

 

As soon as Nityananda was taken on Vishvambhara's lap, He surrendered His life to Him and became motionless.

(CB 2.4.20-21)

 

 

 

bhAse nityAnanda caitanyera prema-jale

zakti-hata lakSmaNa ye-heNa rAma-kole

 

prema-bhakti-bANe mUrchA gela nityAnanda

nityAnanda kole kari' kaGde gauracandra

 

 

Nityananda floated on the waters of Caitanya's love, just as Laksmana remained in the lap of Rama after being hit by the shakti-shela arrow. Nityananda lost consciousness due to being hit by the arrow of prema-bhakti. Holding Nityananda on His lap, Gauracandra began to weep.

 

 

 

ki Ananda-viraha haila dui jane

pUrve yena zuniyAchi zrI-rAma-lakSmaNe

 

 

The bliss of separation relished between the Two was alike to that relished by Sri Rama and Laksmana previously.

 

 

 

gauracandra nityAnande snehera ye sImA

zrI-rAma-lakSmaNa vahi nAhika upamA

 

 

There is no limit to the affection between Gauracandra and Nityananda other than that which is found between Rama and Laksmana.

(CB 2.4.23-26)

 

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In the most holy Sri Laghu-bhagavatamrita of Srimat Rupa Gosvamipada, some delightful verses inform us thus:

 

"Because He enjoys humanlike pastimes as Lord Krsna does, the form of Lord Ramacandra is most dear to Lord Krsna.

 

 

"The words of Lord Krsna in Brahmanda Purana:

 

 

'Matsya, Kurma, and many others are My personal forms. Still, Ramacandra, the son of Dasaratha, is most dear to My heart.'"

(LB 2.305-306)

 

I'd like to know the lyrics of this bhajan please. I have google'd and 'd everywhere and cannot find the lyrics. Is some kind devotee able to provide the lyrics please?

 

An mp3 file of this bhajan (sung by Prabhupada) is available at the Radio Krishna Centrale site.

 

Shiva, Gaurasundara is so lost that he has gone and become friends with scholars who think that Krsnadas Kaviraj Goswami was just expressing his personal opinion or bias when he wrote that section of C.C where he glorified Nityananda Prabhu.

 

 

I'm lost? Good. I'm certainly lost everytime I read Shiva's take on everything. I suppose you agree with his conclusion that Arjuna is in madhurya-rasa with Krishna? This seems to be a very nice siddhanta!

 

Dear Murali, I had a little respect for you before because I thought you were an honest representative of your Gurudeva, but that is totally gone now. Your continuing campaign of envy against anyone who does not agree with your viewpoint is so flabbergasting that it is beyond belief. If you actually bother to study the wealth of Gaudiya tradition out there, you'll realise that Mahprabhu is worshipped in a variety of ways, not just your way. It's a fact, Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was influenced in a big way by Nityananda Prabhu. Vrindavan das Thakura was Nityananda Prabhu's disciple. You will hear similar praise of Gadadhara Pandita, Advaita Acharya and Srivasa Pandit from their respective followers. I believe that I have shown just one example of this in my previous posting. Unfortunately you seem to think like Christian missionaries who think that their way is the only way. I have no problem with that, but I feel that I must object when such sectarian views are promulgated in public forum that risk alienating members of other lineages. You really should engage in some field research before summarily dismissing their views as "lost."

 

As for my being "friends" with scholars, I have friends who come from all walks of life. I am friends with ISKCON devotees, ritviks, followers of Narayana Maharaja, Sridhara Maharaja, Govinda Maharaja, Gour Govinda Maharaja, Tripurari Maharaja, as well as friends with those from the traditionalist "camp." I don't really believe in the "camp" system as Vaishnavism is against the envious basis of a sectarian mentality. Such an attitude is non-productive to devotee relationships.

 

 

These dudes are total sahajiyas.

 

 

Evidently you haven't been paying attention to this topic flow which is quite a shame, otherwise you should know by now what a sahajiya is before you slander others of being so. For the record, I do not have sexual relations with other people's wives in an attempt to emulate Radha-Krishna lila. Would you be suggesting that I indulge in such activities? I thought you were a most gracious Vaishnava who wouldn't be involved in levelling such examples of unfounded slander and abuse. Apparently I am forced to think that this is your normal strategy of dealing with people of different opinions. Previously you made some extremely hurtful and insensitive remarks relating to how I attend ISKCON temples with the sole purpose of attracting young girls, which is wholly untrue. Do you honestly think that your guru, Sridhara Maharaja, would approve of your slanderous behaviour?

 

 

They aren't genuine Gaudiya Vaishnavas at all.

 

 

Dear Murali, you simply are not in any position to judge who is a genuine Gaudiya Vaishnava and who is not. Kindly think it over, and let me know if you are in a position to judge who is practicing sadacara and who is not.

 

I do wish that I could have your association but your recent behaviour has been extremely disappointing to witnes, to say the least.

To prove my point, here's something from Advaita-prakasa:

 

"Advaita Prabhu could understand the hearts of everyone, for He is the spiritual master of the whole world. He fulfills the desires of the pure devotees like a desire tree." - Chapter 9.

 

And that's from the ISKCON edition as well.

 

ve' read diferently,go figger

 

 

And how did I know that you were going to quote exactly the same verse that I thought you would quote? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Dear Shiva, on one hand you accuse me of missing the points that you make when I have done nothing except address all of your points. Can you kindly point out a place where I have left a point of yours unanswered, besides your claiming it so? If you are sincerely honest, I trust that you will find that it is really your good self who has never comprehended any of my points. Your quotes about Nityananda Prabhu are a good example in point. Didn't I tell you: "Nityananda is NOT the adi-guru for anyone except for those in his parampara. There are paramparas coming from Advaita, Gadadhara, and Srivasa as well. It is not inconceivable to think that those figures are the adi-guru for sadhakas in those respective paramparas. In fact, this is what a sadhaka in Advaita-parampara has told me, he and others in his line respect Sri Advaita Acharya as adi-guru."

 

Fascinating how you immediately start to quote verses that really prove my point; you are quoting verses from Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami and Vrindavan Das Thakura, who were both blessed by Nityananda. Did you bother to ask a devotee in the Advaita-parampara what he thinks of that? A devotee in Gadadhara-parampara? Obviously not.

 

Please, Shiva, do some field research. There are a multiplicity of ways in which Mahaprabhu is worshipped. In this particular aspect, we can see that a follower of Advaita-parampara, for example, will respect Advaita Prabhu as the "adi-guru" and not Nityananda, because it is only/mostly the followers in a Nityananda-parampara that will respect Nityananda Prabhu as adi-guru. Try to research this, before posting slokas that don't really prove your case.

 

Dear Gaurasundara,

 

you have no chance to explain anything in one to one argument, because of the(ir) ahankara.

They can twist your words as Duryodhana twisted the meaning of his deeds proving the Pandavas to be the wrong ones.

Virtue is sinn, and sinn is virtuous.

 

 

Agreed. There is no talking to such ignorant people. It is a shame that such people pretend to hav knowledge of rasika-topics when they clearly have not stuided the tikas of Visvantha, etc. The latest jibes about my "non-qualification" to speak on Gaudiya siddhanta is based on pure envy and foolishness. What else remains to be done?

 

gaurasundar blessed us with this

 

 

Look, can you do us all a favour and discuss in a productive manner that is free from rudeness?

 

 

And where did you get this idea of Nityananda-Guru from?

 

--

 

a little place i like to call gaudiya siddhanta.

 

 

Tough going. I hate to break it to you, but as far as I have heard Nityananda is NOT the adi-guru for anyone except for those in his parampara. There are paramparas coming from Advaita, Gadadhara, and Srivasa as well. It is not inconceivable to think that those figures are the adi-guru for sadhakas in those respective paramparas. In fact, this is what a sadhaka in Advaita-parampara has told me, he and others in his line respect Sri Advaita Acharya as adi-guru. The reason why Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami praises Nityananda a lot, is probably because he is in the Nityananda-parampara as well as the fact that he was ordered by Nityananda to write CC. Unfortunately his guru-parampara is not known. But anyway, as far as I have heard, the adi-guru differs from parampara to parampara. It is not a set piece of "Gaudiya siddhanta." You will find similar references to Advaita Acharya in the works of those paramparas as well, before anyone decides to intellectually molest me citing various verses from CC.

 

 

one thing you ARE good at is speculating as to the meaning

of the written word and squeezing out of that your own

ideas that always seem to match whatever nonsense

your preaching,kudos /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

 

It's pretty obvious that you have nothing to do except indulge in sarcastic insults every time someone challenges your points. Sorry guy, but the fact is that you have an extremely sectarian outlook which I am sure is not appreciated by anyone who has even half a brain. Unfortunately, "Gaudiya siddhanta" is not a sectarian philosophy and therefore does not agree with you.

 

 

wait...the gospel according to you just infirmed me previously that

Mahaprabhu has never before in the "history of creation"

done what the above quote from you tells us he did a long time ago , apparently Mahaprabhu does this lila regularly,

oops.

 

 

On what basis do you proclaim that Mahaprabhu does this lila on a "regular" basis? Mahaprabhu comes once in a day of Brahma. So yes, from Brahma's point of view Mahaprabhu descends "every day," but for us he descends only once in a day of Brahma. That's 4.32 billion years you're talking about, pal. Do you still say Mahaprabhu appears "regularly"?

 

Besides, my point was made in reference to the supreme gift that Mahaprabhu came to give. In this way, have a look:

 

"May that Lord who is known as the son of Srimati Sacidevi be transcendentally situated in the innermost chambers of your heart. Resplendent with the radiance of molten gold, He has appeared in the Age of Kali by His causeless mercy to bestow what no incarnation ever offered before: the most sublime and radiant spiritual knowledge of the mellow taste of His service." - CC Adi 1.4

 

"For a long time I have not bestowed unalloyed loving service to Me upon the inhabitants of the world. Without such loving attachment, the existence of the material world is useless." - CC Adi 3.14

 

Regularly? Nah.

 

 

wait...the gospel according to you just infirmed me previously that

Mahaprabhu has never before in the "history of creation"

done what the above quote from you tells us he did a long time ago , apparently Mahaprabhu does this lila regularly,

oops.

 

 

I quoted CC Adi 3.14 in my last post. How did you draw "regularly" from that? What does "For a long time" mean to Mahaprabhu? What does it mean to Brahma? "Yesterday." That's 4.32 billion years ago, pal. That's sure "regular," even for Mahaprabhu! /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

 

everything else you say is goofy,you think that you can

give the higher truths,the pure and actual siddhanta

that the chauvanist bad no good nicks who disagree with

with you must be.(cant they see your superior "pure"

vision).

 

 

You seem to have a serious problem in thinking that I am presenting myself as some hotshot "new acharya on the block" when I have done no such thing, therefore all these "goofy" delusions exist only in your own mind. Apart from that, it is obvious that you have never bothered to read Srila Prabhupada's books properly otherwise you would never be saying all of the silly things that you have. Remind us again how Arjuna is in madhurya-rasa with Krishna? Remind us again how lila-smarana in the mood of a female cannot be done by those in male bodies? Remind us again why only Wal-Mart employees have the sole privilege of marrying their attractive female bosses? Remind us again what is a sahajiya? Etc etc etc.

Therefore it would be a good idea not to poke fun and laugh rolling on the floor at others when the real hilarity lies in the fun-poker.

 

this is what gaurasundar sounds like if you take away

all the bengali or sanskrit or quotes he tries

to give his import to.

 

 

And here's me thinking that we should refer to sastra to backup our points. Forgive me, I am in error and I should rely on my fertile imagination instead. This is the correct path.

 

 

the funny thing about all of this is your intensity,

you reeeaaalllly think this is what bhakti is all about.

 

"it would be so horrible to not be a gopi,just a queen ?

yuck, not me,i'm to good for that,i'm special,the most special,i reject those lesser mortals who will "ONLY"

be with Krsna in dwarka,in palace life,wealth,etc,

while I'll be in Vraja,REALLY enjoying."

 

 

I never said anything of the sort. Look, do us all a favour and read the books of Srila Prabhupada. He himself is the one who informs us that the rasas are progressively higher than the previous due to intimacy with Krishna that is free from awe and reverence. Also, consider the conversation between Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Raya:

 

"The Lord said, 'Your statements are certainly getting better and better one after the other, but surpassing all of them is another transcendental mellow, and you can speak of that as the most sublime." Ramananda Raya then replied, 'Conjugal attachment for Krsna is the topmost position in love of Godhead.'" - CC Madhya 8.79

 

The point here is that pure love of God is fully relished when there is pure intimacy, and the qualities of awe and reverence are conspicuous by their absence. The relationships of the Queens of Dvaraka certainly have awe and reverence present in them, and even though their mellow is conjugal it is still svakiya. Only the gopis are on the level of parakiya-rasa. And parakiya-rasa, by definition, is far more exciting than svakiya-rasa.

 

As for the rest of your post, it is full of self-indulgent sarcasm and rudeness that does not merit a reply.

 

All texts undergo "editing" before they are published. That's pretty standard... However, that is not the same as saying that Jiva Gosvami's words have been edited, now is it? Do you have any actual evidence of the latter, or is this the kind of wild and unsubstantiated rumor you have no problem helping to circulate since it is only ISKCON which is at the receiving end of it?

 

 

Tamal Krishna Gosvami told the whole story of the "origin of the soul" controversy in his book "A Hare Krishna at Southern Methodist University." He frankly proclaimed that the whole issue arose because of a disagreement of the Sandarbha translations. Basically the Sandarbha argues for the "no-fall" position, whereas this obviously conflicts with ISKCON's "fall" position.

Nice try at questioning my motives, by the way.

 

You took the words right out of my mouth. What I didn't put in my last post, but it had crossed my mind, was, "If someone were to tell me a book is on the ISKCON "bad" list, I would KNOW its a good book!" lol Yes, that is the best advertising they can do - ban a book.

 

 

Priitaaji, do you really feel like this?

 

Did he learn Sanskrit from a personalist or impersonalist, or from where?

 

 

Dear Priitaaji, if we are talking about Sarvabhavana's edition, then in his acknowledgements he states that he received "guidance" from Narayana Maharaja. Other than that it is an ISKCON-approved book since it passed the Book Committee that they have. I am guessing that this book was published before it became "banned" to take Narayana Maharaja's siksa. Funnily enough, other books by Sarvabhavana are still sold in ISKCON. Did that help you, Priitaaji?

 

By aspiring for qualification I mean aspiring for ruci and asakti wherein one can engage fully in raganuga sadhana at the point when sraddha is full and aprakrta in nature (sraddhanvitah).

 

 

I had a chance to check my copy of Madhurya Kadambini (ISKCON version). However, please try to understand this:

 

adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sango 'tha bhajana-kriya tato 'nartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha rucis tatah

athasaktis tato bhavas tatah premabhyudancati sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah - CC Madhya 23.14-15, also BRS 1.4.15-16

 

In fact, CC Madhya 9-13 are good descriptions also. This all shows the gradual process that is to be followed. In any case, ruci and rati/bhava are fairly advanced stages in this sequence. If one has no nistha, how can one get ruci? If one has no asakti (which is the mature stage of ruci) then how can one get rati? Certainly sraddha is the beginning, but one also needs sadhu-sanga and bhajana-kriya as a good basis and beginning. The stage of 'bhajana-kriya' is oft used to denote initiation, so without initiation one cannot really begin the process of bhajan as a whole, since bhajan begins with diksa.

 

 

Before this it will be difficult to do smaranam at all no matter what anyone tells you becasue meditation requires a pure heart and arises out of kirtanam.

 

 

Certainly it may be difficult to do proper smaranam in the beginning. Srila Visvanatha describes anisthitha-bhakti in his Madhurya Kadambini (I think I've already mentioned this in the "Evolution" thread) and those six symptoms of anisthita-bhakti are basically the obstacles that prevent us from practising smaranam proper. However, there is a famous saying; 'Who Dares, Wins.' If one does not try to achieve a steady level of bhakti, how will one ever achieve it? Nothing can be gained without effort:

 

"The goal of life [sadhya] cannot be achieved unless one practices the process [sadhana]." - CC Madhya 8.197

 

I must say that I respectfully question your comment about smaranam/meditation requiring a pure heart. In the First Shower of Madhurya-kadambini, Visvanatha uses SB 10.33.39 as an example of how bhakti can sprout in a heart that is still filled with lusty desires. He makes a case out of the word 'pratilabhya' which apparently means 'having attained.' "Here by the tense of the verb pratilabhya it is clear that bhakti first manifests while there are still lusty desires in the heart. Then after her manifestation, lusty desires are wiped out." (Page 9)

Cakravartipada certainly has more to say but I find it absolutely fascinating that he makes this point because just previously to that, he specifically states that purity of heart is a requirement for the practise of jnana-yoga, and that if one falls down from this practice then one is abominable. So really, according to Visvanatha Cakravarti, "though one may be afflicted wby lust one has the qualification (adhikara) to begin the practice." (page 9). As we all know, we are bhakti-yogis and not jnana-yogis. Besides:

 

sa ca lobho rAga vartma vartinAM bhaktAnAM guru-padASraya lakSaNam Arabhya svAbhISTa vastu sAkSAt prApti samayam abhivyApya "yathA yathAtma parimRjyate'sau mat puNya gAthA SravaNAbhidhAnaiH, tathA tathA paSyati vastu sUkSmaM cakSur YathaivAJjana samprayuktam |

"iti bhagavad ukter bhakti hetukAntaH karaNa Suddhi tAratamyAt prati dinam adhikAdhiko bhAvati ||(rvc 1.8)

 

"It is described that the devotees on the path of raga Gradually progress from the initial surrender to the feet of Sri Guru up to the stage of directly attaining the object of their desires. 'When the eye is smeared with medicinal ointment, its ability of perception becomes more and more refined, and accordingly it is able to perceive more and more subtle objects; similarly, according to the degree of the mind's having become purified by hearing and chanting of My purifying pastimes, all the subtle truths of reality become manifest in the heart of the sadhaka.'

"From these words of the Lord it is known that through sadhana-bhakti the consciousness of the sadhaka becomes more purified every day, and he gradually becomes more and more greedy."

 

 

Even if a guru assigns you a svarupa it will be difficult to take advantage of this and do samranam effectively until the eart is sufficiently purified.

 

 

Certainly, but some smaranam must be there. In fact, according to Srila Narottama das Thakura, the entire practice of smaranam, as long as one is a sadhaka, is considered unripe. Only after attaining perfection (prema) is one considered "ripe." This would be the whole point of sadhana, that we are unripe so we practice the sadhana to make ourselves ripe?

There's another good point about taking advantage of a guru-given svarupa. This is probably why Srila Bhaktivinoda wrote: "The sadhana is executed in five progressive stages: sravana-dasa (the stage of hearing), varana-dasa (the stage of accepting), smarana-dasa (the stage of remembering), apana-dasa (the stage of maturing), and sampatti-dasa (the stage of attainment)." - Harinama Cintamani 15/28

So, at least from Bhaktivinoda's view, one should make use of the siddha-deha by any means necessary, if only to hear and accept it before beginning to remember it.

 

 

Furthermore one's svrupa will come out in the course of sravanama kirtanam at the stages of ruci and asakti (sadhana bhakti) and then one can engage more effectively in smaranam.

 

 

Sravanam and kirtanam are really to be engaged at all times and it should not stop:

 

""Due to having great relish for the holy name, one is inclined to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra constantly." - CC Madhya 23.32

 

Although this verse describes a sadhaka who has reached the level of bhava. Sravanam-kirtanam will be indulged in with great relish at the time of attaining ruci. Asakti is really a mature stage of ruci, as it says in Madhurya-kadambini. As far as this text is concerned, the savarupa seems to "come out" at the stage of bhava, since Visvanatha mentions that the "ahanta ('I') of the sadhaka seems as if to enter into a siddha-deha suitable to his desire to serve the Lord and his material body remains almost as if he has left it." (page 43)

 

 

Some tiny bit of lobha must be there

 

 

Only a tiny bit? You know, raganuga-sadhana functions almost totally by your greed for it.

 

vrajalIlA parikarastha SRNgArAdi bhAva mAdhurye Srute dhIr idaM mama bhUyAt iti lobhotpattikAle SAstra yukty apekSA nA syAt satyAM ca tasyAM lobhatvasyaivAsiddheH |

nahi kenacit SAstra dRSTyA lobhaH kriyate nApi lobhanIya Vastu prAptau svasya yogyAyogyatva vicAraH ko ’py udbhAvati. kintu lobhanyIa vastuni Srute dRSTe vA svata eva lobha utpadyate ||

 

"If, upon hearing of the sweetness of the feelings,headed by passion, of Sri Krsna's associates in the Vraja-lila, one thinks, ‘Let me also attain such feelings,’ then at this time one need not depend either on the revealed scriptures or on favorable logical considerations. If such dependence remains, it cannot be said that greed has appeared. Greed never arises in anyone because of scriptural considerations, and in anyone who is desirous to attain the object of the greed, no considerations of qualification or lack of qualification arise. Rather, greed arises only by hearing about the object of greed or by seeing it." (rvc 1.5)

 

 

If you think it is not too bad to become a queen in Dvaraka you do not have lobha for raga bhakti.

 

 

Why not? What if that is what I want to attain? The Gopis are on the highest level of madhurya-rasa, that is fine. But what if I want to serve Krishna in the mood of a cowherd boy or as a parent in vatsalya-rasa? These relationships are known as sambhandhAnugA whereas the amorous category is known as kAmAnugA. It is then obvious that DvArakA-mahiSi-bhAva (Dvaraka-queen-bhava) belongs to the svakiya type whereas the Gopi-bhava is of the parakiya type. So you can follow raganuga-bhakti in all of these different types of relationships as long as your sacreed greed has arisen for it. The real key is to first hear of Krishna's pastimes; when you hear of His dealings with a particular associate and you wish to experience the same feelings as THAT associate no matter who they are, whether cowherd boy or parent or gopi, your lobha has awoken. The very fact that you wish to attain the same feelings is the symptom of your awoken/awakening lobha.

 

Simple.

 

 

Ajata ruci is as generous a term as is the term kanistha adhikara Vaisnava. Without ruci there is not a lot of meaning to raganuga because this is what it is based upon.

 

 

Let us try to understand that ragaunuga-bhakti is a sadhana first and foremost, not a perfection. It is something to be practised and not "attained." Basically you have faith then you associate with devotees then you accept initiation (bhajana-kriya). NOW is the time to decide whether you want to follow one of two paths; vaidhi or raganuga. As they are two distinct paths which lead to different results. As stated before, ruci comes a little later. The important point at the stage of bhajana-kriya is to decide where to go next. And after that comes anartha-nivritti. The practice of whichever bhakti you choose enables anartha-nivritti to start.

Other than that, I cannot see any other needful definition of ajata-ruci-raganuga other than the one that was previously given:

 

ajAta-tAdRSa-rucinA tu sad-viSeSAdara-mAtrAdRtA rAgAnugApi vaidhI-saMvalitaivAnuSTheyA | tathä loka-saMgrahArthaM pratiSTitena jAta-tAdRSa-rucinA ca | atra miSratve ca yathA-yogyaM rAgAnugAyaikI kRtyaiva vaidhI kartavyA || (Bhakti-sandarbha 312)

 

"Those in whom such taste (ruci) has not awakened, but who have a special interest for it, should engage in a mixture of rAgAnugA and vaidhI. For the sake of establishing an example for the people of the world, the one in whom such ruci has awakened will do the same. Therefore, as appropriate, rAgAnugA should be performed together with vaidhI."

 

 

The difference between raga bhakti and vaidhi bhakti is orientation. The practices are for the most part the same.

 

 

This is correct, as far as I know.

 

 

All Gaudiya Vaisnavas teach raganuga sadhana bhakti. Some call ajata ruci raganuga bhakti "vaidhi bhakti" becasue it contains no ruci and one's interest in it is based upon intellect and the srciptural injunctions that extoll its virtues. This may seem like a misnomer, but in fact the reality of ajata ruci raga is that it is primarily an intellectual interest in an affair that is of the purified heart. So it is not a really misnomer but a way of underscoring the glory of raga bhakti, unless of course it becomes misunderstood to mean the actual path of vaidhi bhakti itself leading to reverential love.

 

 

This nice theory may be true I don't know, but we do not see this happening in reality in such organisations such as Gaudiya Matha and ISKCON. Surprisingly, several rasika Vaishnavas have come out of these organisations such as BP Puri Maharaja and Gour Govinda Swami. I find that intriguing, but at the same time based on what I said in another thread, it appears that the "inherent" theory is at work here as opposed to the "acquired" theory in regards to siddha-deha. However, some people do not recognise the inherent theory, I don't know why.

 

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakura would be an example of this kind of preaching.

 

 

Certainly Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura preached certain dynamic ideas, but in his own personal sadhana practice he was as orthodox and traditional as they come. This leads us to speculate over whether he ever intended to actually carry out his ideas or have someone else do it. They say a letter exists to that effect, but it authorises only daiva-varnasrama as far as I know.

 

 

Others insist that vaidhi cannot give raga and thus insit that they follow raganuga sadhana, and if pressed ajata ruci raganuga sadhna. Although they are correct, they seem to misunderstand what Bhaktivinoda meant when he stressed practicing vadhi until one is qualified for raga marg. Thus they may inordinately criticize those who take a conservative stance towards raganuga as recommended by Bhaktivinoda. Admittedly it is complicated by the fact that many of the followers of Bhaktivinoda through Bhaktisiddhanta have aslso misunderstood much of this.

 

 

That's true. But it's also important to remember that Bhaktivinoda was a member of one particular line and also had different ideas of raganuga-bhakti, for whatever reason, that were not in line with the path outlined by the Six Gosvamis and later Acharyas like Visvanatha and Narottama. As such, it appears that his work and ideas have not been taken as seriously within the entire Gaudiya Vaishnava community, except perhaps the disciplic line coming from Srila Sarasvati Thakura.

 

 

Svarupa maybe given or somehting else may be given in the name of svarupa.

 

 

Like what?

 

 

The cautions of Bhaktisiddhanta are based on his actual experiene of a sham in the name of siddha pranali.

 

 

Would you mind giving me details about this "sham"? Bhaktivinoda himself was as orthodox as they come, as he himself practised ekadasa-bhava, siddha-pranali and astakaliya-lila all of his life from the time of his diksa till the time he left his body. In fact, during the last days h e was absorbed 24/7 in his bhajan with no interruption. Now that's inspiring! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

 

Svarupa may not be given at all and still realized. Ruci is not svarupa siddhi, but it is the basis of it and when one attains it he can do meaningful bhajana as an advanced sadhaka.

 

 

But this is not what Bhaktivinoda says. According to his views, the svarupa is first 'heard of' (sravana-dasa). As is likely, the svarupa would be first heard of at the time of diksa (bhajana-kriya) or afterwards, so how can ruci be the basis of it if it really starts at bhajana-kriya?

 

 

Just because raganuga is a sadhana does not mean every sahadka can do bhajana. Most need to do sravanam kirtanam until purification results.

 

 

Well, that all really depends on what we mean by 'bhajan.' Bhajan means worship, but what kind of worship? Sravanam? Kirtanam? Arca-murti-seva? Lila-smarana? Gurus generally give siddha-pranali if they think that the disciple is qualified to receive it, and this may be at the time of diksa or afterwards. In any case one has to be sufficiently purified to receive diksa in the first place, that's a fact.

 

Entitled here should be taken to mean worthy of. Possibly it means that you need to undergo a process of purification thru Karma yoga before you will experience Bhakti

 

 

In the First Shower of Madhurya Kadambini, Srila Visvanatha Cakravartipada mentions that, unlike the paths of karma-yoga and jnana-yoga, bhakti-yoga needs no qualifications to practise it and neither does it matter if there is an error in its practice.

 

On the basis of that, I am inclined to say that Bhakti is a superior path which is really meant for all types of people, everywhere.

Thanks very much for this text. I've been looking for a nice copy for a long time. Thank you again.

Absolutely no idea!

 

I feel more sorry for Anadiji. He simply wanted to discuss where the sanga of Narayana Maharaja differs with ISKCON, and this has been taken over by a discussion about eligibility for raganuga-bhakti. Anyway, it is good to see that he is still posting his points, and giving us all something to think about.

Very good.

 

One sincere but fanatical devotee once asked me to provide a refutation of one of BG Narasingha's papers that was under discussion at the time. I accepted the request but I had to stop half-way through. Why? Because unfortunately BG Narasingha makes so many mistakes and so many irrelevant points that it is a task indeed to refute!

 

With all due respect to BG Narasingha, he simply does not know what he is talking about. This is a good example:

 

"Pseudo-devotees want to jump to spontaneous love without first transcending the material body and mind. They misinterpret Rupa Goswami when he says that the neophyte should follow in the footsteps of the eternal residents of Vrndavana while in the body of a practitioner (sadhaka-deha). In order to follow in the footsteps of the gopis (Krsna's milk-maids) one must first transcend the bodily conception of life through adherence to vidhi. Before doing so, the neophyte should follow the example of the Goswamis, who are eternal residents of Vrndavana appearing on Earth to instruct us by their example."

 

However, the Gosvamis never instructed anyone to practice raganuga-bhakti by first going through vidhi, as far as have heard. They were quite clear in acknowledging it as a path through which one attains Vaikuntha-bhava, but they never gave any instruction to follow it. Rather, the material in their books is highly relevant to the process of raganuga-sadhana. Also, the 64 angas of bhakti are to be practised both by those who have attained ruci and those who have not, so this is enough instance of "vidhi" when performing "raganuga."

 

Also, I am not aware of anyone who has propounded the idea of "jumping" into Vrndavana. Practically speaking, it is impossible. 'Ceto-darpana-marjanam' is a hard task indeed, especially since we are all burning in samsara-davanala. The sadhana itself may indeed take several lifetimes to complete, so "jumping" into Vrindavan is certainly not possible! Unless, of course, one receives a shower of grace which itself is very rare.

 

P.S. If you're the same guest who spoke about ajata and jata, I'll have to respond tomorrow. I'm a little too tired right now.

 

P.P.S. Something just occurred to me. Please note BG Narasingha's comment:

 

"They misinterpret Rupa Goswami when he says that the neophyte should follow in the footsteps of the eternal residents of Vrndavana while in the body of a practitioner (sadhaka-deha)."

 

Taking this into context along with his other remarks about transcending "bodily consciousness," it seems to me that BG Narasingha is either ridiculing or denying that spontaneous love is to be attained while in the body of a practitioner (sadhaka-deha). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting this impression.

 

In which case, what then, is the point of vidhi-bhakti? What is the use of any sadhana whatsoever, if not to be performed in a material sadhaka body? In any case, the process of "vidhi" is being followed by both the vidhi-bhakta and the raganuga-bhakta as far as the 64 angas of bhakti are concerned, so where is the problem?

 

By the way, BG Narasingha is the only person who I have seen who agrees that vidhi-bhakti leads to Vaikuntha. You wouldn't get this same understanding in ISKCON, at least as far as I have seen.

Sorry, I cannot answer your question, but I would like to say how wonderful it was that he had his heart attack in the way he did.

 

Please don't misunderstand, I have no malice for that devotee. But according to the report, he was doing his japa in front of Radha-Krishna vigraha when he had his heart attack, and when he fell on the floor face down with his attack, it was as if he was in prostration to Radha-Krishna.

 

I am glad that he survived his attack, but really, what a way to go! I would aspire to be that fortunate, to die bowing down before Radha-Krishna!

 

I have been reading Harinama C, and feel i should not be,

 

 

Out of curiosity, could I ask if this is the edition of Sarvabhavana das Adhikari, or a different one?

By the way, you very kindly forwarded me to some very interesting articles. I must now kindly return the favour. Please forward your browser here. Or you can read the online version as you wish.

 

The online version has footnotes, whereas you will have to double-click on the footnote numbers in the doc file to view footnotes.

 

i think results speak louder then words.

 

Bhaktivedanta has spread Mahaprabhus vision to the world

at large,this speaks volumes about the supreme will,

 

 

That is not in disagreement. Srila Prabhupada has certainly offered a very great service at the lotus feet of Mahaprabhu. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

I have heard that the Bauls were very widespread in Bengal in the decades (and centuries?) after Mahaprabhu. Does this means that the Bauls also spread their philosophy as per Mahaprabhu's will?

 

By the way, I have also heard that a Vaishnava named 'Premananda Bharati' was told in a vision by Radha-Krishna to go and preach in the West, which he later did. He hit America significantly earlier than Srila Prabhupada did? Was Bharati empowered as well? I have only heard that he had a vision of Radha, not sure if it's true though.

 

 

if His conception was not Mahaprabhus will,then someone else

would have been empowered,Saktyavesa avatar, empowered

by the potency of Nityananda,the Guru empowering the conception that was to be distributed widely.

 

 

How do you know someone else might have been empowered? Can you say that for a fact?

 

And where did you get this idea of Nityananda-Guru from?

 

 

If Nityananda had empowered another vision,another

vaisnava then this argument could not be settled simply

by observation,but that is not to be so,the Bhaktivedanta

mission has the empowerment,the other conceptions

have not,that is factual.

 

 

It may be a fact that Srila Prabhupada (Bhaktivedanta) spread his mission, but I still think that comments like these reek of sectarian pride. It is almost as if you are saying, "we are the best because our guru made it, and everyone else are all losers." Is that a very nice thing?

 

By the way, if you like Srila Prabhupada so much then may I ask why are you quoting from BG Narasingha's articles? He now belongs to one of the "unempowered" branches of Mahaprabhu's mission?

 

 

Clearly the position taken by those against Bhaktivedanta's approach are not backed by Nityananda,

if they were where is the proof,after all the will

of God is that which is manifest.

 

 

That's a very tough statement to make, Shiva. Now it's almost as if you are saying, "Mahaprabhu's mercy was available to everyone before, and now it's only available to US! Come and get it!"

 

Shiva, you are not in any position to say if anyone is "backed" by Nityananda or not. Everyone is the recipient of Mahaprabhu's mercy and Nityananda's as well. Why stop there? Advaita Acharya's mercy is also available to all. Gadadhara! Srivasa! Gaura-bhakta-vrinda! Patita-pamara nahi bache.

 

 

if they were where is the proof,after all the will

of God is that which is manifest.

 

 

Could I ask what constitutes "proof" for you? There is an extended community of Vaishnavas who worship Radha and Krishna together in a multiplicity of ways. It is almost impossible to trace the ways in which Mahaprabhu's appeal has been spread. Gaudiya Vaishnavism is alive and well. What was the will of God?

 

"For a long time I have not bestowed unalloyed loving service to Me upon the inhabitants of the world. Without such loving attachment, the existence of the material world is useless ... I shall accept the role of a devotee, and I shall teach devotional service by practicing it Myself." - CC Adi 3.14.. 20

 

How was it made manifest?

 

"Taking these pure devotees with Me, I shall descend and sport in various wonderful ways, unknown even in Vaikuntha. I shall broadcast such pastimes by which even I am amazed." - CC Adi 4.27-28

 

Personally I think that the very fact that Krishna descended as Mahaprabhu in order to give the highest goal freely even to the unqualified is a totally unprecedented event in the whole history of creation. Spreading this philosophy to the West is certainly a notable achievement, but what would there have been to spread if there was no Mahaprabhu? It is not as if the Sarasvata-parampara was the only group of Gaudiya Vaishnavas out there, they were simply the first to take it worldwide. All glories to them!

 

Having said all of this, I'm not sure where you are going with this argument. First you started talking about sahajiyas (from an incorrect perspective) and now you are talking about the "empowerment" of the Bhaktivedanta-sampradaya. Where are you going with this?

 

 

The reason this approach has been mandated is that

the highest level is not easily understood,

and easily misunderstood, the desire for liberation,

position,and worship is so strong that we are easily

led to follow the path that will seemingly fullfill

these desires,

 

 

Certainly the desire for liberation et al is an impediment to spiritual progress. However, Visvanatha Cakravartipada has mentioned in his highly-esteemed work Madhurya Kadambini that all anarthas will be removed if one sincerely performs his sadhana. Near to the end of the First Shower, he even mentions that Bhakti can take birth in a heart that contains lust, because the whole point of bhakti is to remove lust. And other anarthas of course. Initially your practice of bhakti is unsteady (anisthita-bhakti). This means you are subject to at least six symptoms: utsahamayi (false confidence), ghana-tarala (sporadic endeavour), vyudha-vikalpa (indecision), visaya-sangara (struggle with maya), niyama-aksama (inability to uphold vows), taranga-rangini (enjoying the waves). If one is sincere, his bhakti becomes fixed (nisthita) and so there are symptoms of that described too. Madhurya-kadambini is a nice work, you should read it.

 

 

thinking in a backwards way we think that if we follow the literal path of raganuga sadhana,

meditating on manjari seva ,that this is pleasing more then any other sadhana to Mahaprabhu,and will be the ticket

to our gaining position in lila.

 

 

Well, this is not backwards. This is the philosophy that was preached by Mahaprabhu and was outlined by the Gosvamis, and gained further emphasis with the works of Narotamma Mahasaya and Visvanatha Cakravartipada. About raganuga-sadhana, I have heard that Jiva Gosvami refers to it as 'sadhanam balavedam param,' it is the most powerful among various forms of sadhana. Am I right here?

And didn't I show you from CC before that Mahaprabhu descended with the propagation of Vraja-bhakti as the main reason, with the introduction of the yuga-dharma as a side-factor? What does that tell you?

 

 

the problem with that attitude is our inability to properly understand the inner truths,the revealed confidential siddhanta,

 

 

See, now if it was confidential then how and why was it revealed?

 

 

without that, all of the teachings about raganuga

and manjari or gopi seva become an impediment and creates

a delusional self conception and delusional conception of the highest most intimate service.

 

 

Therefore we must conclude that all of our Acharyas beginning with Rupa Gosvami were all deluded, with no exceptions. Is that a very good idea?

 

 

that is why it is necessary to have guidance from one who has actual experience and empowerment,Bhaktivedanta clearly was empowered,and in my opinion clearly experienced,

 

 

Empowered to preach the glories of the Holy Name, certainly. As for experienced, as far as I know he never gave any instructions in raganuga-sadhana. So if it is necessary to have guidance from "one who has actual experience and empowerment," who would you put forward as a candidate?

 

 

others who have a different approach have yet to prove that they have the mandate of heaven.

 

 

Oh I see, this is like the Catholic Church. Only the Pope has direct access to Jesus and God therefore only the Catholic Church is true.

 

Methinks some more schisms are coming up in the near future. To be frank, it's already happening.

 

The point is that Gaudiya Vaisnavism is about raganuga bhakti becasue it is about Radha Krsna in Vraja, but those who have no ruci or rati can hardly follow it other than aspiring for qualification while engaging in vaidhi bhakti.

 

 

How exactly would you define "aspiring for qualification" ? The Gosvamis says that simply hearing of the dealings of the Lord with His associates and aspiring to attain similar feelings gives rise to "greed" (lobha) to attain the similar feelings, and this lobha alone is the qualification to engage in raganuga-bhakti. Quite simple. Hear, want, get (in the end).

 

I would be rather careful about engaging in vaidhi-bhakti as a whole though. Vaidhi-bhakti by itself will result in a totally different goal than manjari-bhava; it will result in Vaikuntha-bhava of Narayana. Even performing the mixed version of raganuga-vaidhi for those who have not yet attained ruci, itself runs the risk of attaining the position of a Queen of Dvaraka. That's not too bad either, but the goal is to have a similar bhava to the gopikas of Vraja-dhama.

 

 

They are generously called ajata ruci raganuga sadhakas, which speaks only of their oreintation to Vraja bhakti/intimate love as opposed to devotion in Vaikuntha.

 

 

"Generously" called by whom, may I ask?

Personally, I don't see much difference between ajata and jata as far as practice is concerned, because both those who have attained ruci and those who have not are to practice the 64 angas of bhakti anyway. I don't think you'll find any advocate of "no rules" to be taken very seriously, as this is not the path which the Gosvamis or Visvanatha Cakravartipada outlined.

 

 

Otherwise raganuga proper requires ruci, if not rati, which is the basis of one's svarupa. So we should not make much out of little.

 

 

What is raganuga? What is ruci? What is rati? What is svarupa?

 

Ruci and rati are quite advanced stages anyway. Ruci comes after nistha is gained. How will anyone achieve all these stages if they do not practice raganuga-bhakti? After all; raga = sacred passion, anuga = following in the wake of. Raganuga is the process of following in the footsteps of those who have Ragatmika-bhakti, namely the associates of Krishna. Raganuga is a sadhana, not a sadhya (perfection).

 

And what of svarupa? What svarupa? The svarupa will most likely be given to the aspirant either at the time of diksa or afterwards. Svarupa-siddhi, however, is the realization of it.

 

 

Now if you are not initiated, you can do sadhu sanga, nama kirtana, and Vaisnava seva.

 

 

Yes, but there's no point to that if I have no clue as to my goal. What is the point of sadhu-sanga and so on if I do not know what I am trying to achieve? Having a firm conception in mind is necessary for all endeavours, even material ones. I have an idea, I need to think how to go about activating it, etc..

 

 

Books are to be studied under the guidance of a guru/sadhu.

 

 

Yes it is unfortunate that I do not have the association of a guru or sadhu at this time. However, I have the wonderful association of several practising devotees who are happy to answer any questions I may have as to following the path outlined by the Gosvamis. At this particular point, that's enough for me. I already have much to think about without going ahead and getting initiated right now! /images/graemlins/smile.gif