Kulapavana

Such as...? Are they described in bhagavatam? Most people say these things are not to be taken literally. Is that so, because they don't seem compatible with a merciful god?

It has nothing to do with God's mercy. Some living entities are very sinful and wicked so they create extremely miserable environment.

Anybody who thinks the Puranic descriptions of various hells are a myth only needs to study the last 2000 years of human history for clues.

But what are these ghosts anyway? Are all of them people who've died prematurely?

not necessarily. some are just really wicked souls whose desire and karma is to torment others. many black magic practicioners turn into ghosts when they die.

Are these things for real? Sounds frightening.

there are some beings and places which are even more frightening...

certain ghosts may appear in any form they like. When you see a ghost riding a horse, it is actually just one entity.

this is a political rather than philosophical debate - the battle lines are drawn between ISKCON and the Gaudiya Math (what's left of it).

In reality it is Prabhupada vs the GM disciples and gurus on a topic which has very little practical consequence to anybody's spiritual life.

it has been made into a political subject by disciples of Prabhupada.

and I disagree that it is am irrelevant issue. as in: are you promoting apa-siddhanta?

Sleeper-vada:

I am nitya-siddha, you are nitya-siddha, we are all nitya-siddha. Why do I not feel like a nitya-siddha now? because you just don't know you are a nitya-siddha.

Maya-vada:

I am God, you are God, we are all God. Why do I not feel like God now? because you just don't know you are God.

But apparently some Prabhupada followers say it is possible to return from this abode and it is a matter of personal choice. My question is, other than this group, do we know of any other doctrine which holds a similiar position? Like the Vallabhas, Nimbarkas, etc.,?

 

Not that I know of. The idea that you can fall from a direct personal relationship with Bhagavan is unthinkable for pretty much all Vaishnava schools I ever came across. The issue of 'free choice' is not an excuse to promote such an idea. When you are in love, you have a free choice to leave your love, but why would anyone want to do that?

Brahmajyoti is never called 'impersonal' in sanskrit. It is sometimes called nirvisesa or UN-DIFFERENTIATED, a place of no distinctions, but such subtelties are lost on people with partisan and biased agenda. There is NOTHING impersonal about brahmajyoti, as it entirely consists of PERSONS, or individual jivas!

Obstacle because they consider Formless Brahman to be greater than Krishna, whom they consider to be Brahman with forms? And did Prabhupada explicitly state these things, that the jiva has fallen down, and so on? Was he the only person in GV to say so?

It is an obstacle, because it promotes a desire to become one with God. Thus surrender and love of God cannot be developed.

Prabhupada is the only person in the GV tradition who promoted an idea that jiva's initial position was in direct contact with Krsna or Vishnu (fall from Vaikuntha). However, he also stated in other places that we all come from Brahman (see Isopanishad quotes) and that no one falls from Vaikuntha. Because of these inconsistencies devotees feel the need to concoct apa-sampradaic theories like the sleepervada.

True, but I still don't think they're sent to a Naraka or something for 'mis-belief'.

Their belief in creator-god and mode of goodness activities will at best take them to the heavenly planets, maybe even to the abode of Brahma (but that requires very pure mode of goodness life and alot of tapas). A mere belief in God is not a whole lot by Vedic standards - even the Vedic dog-eaters were pious and God-fearing.

I'm not sure where they go after death if they sincerely loved God in the form they were taught to worship Him, but I'm sure it's not a bad place.

You can not go to a world you never wanted to join as your final destination.

I think that as Vaishnavas, we should honor all paths to Krishna, especially those followed by our fellow Vaishnavas.

Very much so. However, I do not consider the believers of Abrahamic traditions to be Vaishnavas. They may be good people, religious people, godly people (sura), but they are not Vaishnavas IMO. Anybody who thinks that a destination of a good Christian, Muslim, or Jew, is Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha, should start studying the shastra.

The fall theory of gaudiyas is very similar to mayavada, in that they both assume the jiva-s to be dreaming. In GV, jiva-s are dreaming this material world while in actuality they're in Vaikuntha, whereas in advaita, this material world is Brahman's dream, and multiple jiva-s are an illusion. So the only difference is in names (instead of Brahman, GVs call the entity ViSNu), and perhaps in the idea of multiple jiva-s which GV subcribes to, and advaita doensn't.

 

1. The "no fall" (sleeper-vada) theory is limited only to some delusional disciples of Srila Prabhupada and has absolutely no place in Gaudiya Vaishnavism

2. Sleepervada theory directly cotradicts Vedic scriptures, by claiming that there is no soul (atman) in the material body, only some 'projected consciousness' for which there is no term in the entire Vedic literature.

3. Mayavada is a very well formed theory, to a large extent based on the Vedic version of monism, while the sleeper-vada rejects the shastric basis and derives its sole support from isolated comments of a single person, Srila Prabhupada. In many cases it is completely contradictory to other statements of the same authority, such as the presence of soul (atman) in every body.

Thus it can be concluded that the sleeper-vada theory is a total joke, while the Mayavada philosophy is a formidable obstacle on the way to understand Krsna.

What I find curious and somewhat twisted is that in our movement devotees badmouth and condemn the VAIHNAVA sahajiyas while they heap praises on the Abrahamic religions, especially Christianity. IMO that is just a propaganda issue because Gaudiya Vaishnavism is 95% similar to Vaishnava sahajiya schools, while it may only share 25% similarity with Christianity.

Could be that they are gradually finding out that it is the potency of Prabhupada who attracts new devotees and by behaving like priest, "on behalf", Prabhupada's presence is coming through more efficiently.

The importance of work performed by 'devotees on the ground' cannot be neglected. Disciples are the 'energy' of Prabhupada. Without them his books would never get to all these people.

Give credit where credit is due. Servant of the servant. One could easily say that 'it is all Krsna's arrangement' and give Prabhupada little credit. Would that be fair?

In the same fashion, it is 'boots on the ground' that do the preaching work, and they deserve the credit or the criticism for the job they are doing.

I got a rare syndrome from malpractice that kills one in four...

wow... that must have been quite an ordeal.

the mechanics of the link between body and soul are still very poorly understood, even among the devotees. so many things affect that link, and certainly some modern medicine seem to be helping a lot of people. One must judge these things by the results they produce. You can look at the way these substances induce goodness, passion, or ignorance, and judge accordingly. Most intoxicants are tamasic, some are rajasic, but the vedic soma juice was inducing mode of goodness. It was like the 'spice' of the Arrakis

Thank you for stepping out and being honest. I am not sure presently what I think about these things, but I do appreciate very much your practicality and thoughts on the matter.

After several decades of practical application of KC we MUST be honest and practical about what works and what does not. Otherwise we are simply deluding yet another generation of aspiring Vaishnavas.

Some present Iskcon gurus are honest and practical, at least in private, or at least with their disciples, and they inspire many, many people to take up KC - despite our past mistakes and our current controversies. That is VERY remarkable and must be recognized as good service.

How do you find balance and harmony with your above statements and at the same time follow Srila Prabhuapda?

Even Srila Prabhupada himself realized towards the end that sannyasa ashram he introduced in the West was a mistake. He openly spoke about it: "no more sannyasa" (In 1977 Srila Prabhupada stated at least twice - based on tape transcripts - that sannyasa asram is to be abolished in Iskcon, or at least that no new sannyasis be initiated).

Acharyas take risks when spreading Lord Caitanya's Movement and sometimes the damage is real. It takes some honesty and maturity to see a failure, and Prabhupada had no problem seeing the failure of his sannyasa program. Neither should his followers have a problem seeing that.

Both SP and BST were bold experimenters and reformers of Vaishnavism. Not all these experiments were a success. You have to be honest about these things.

Soldiers love and respect their commanders not because the commanders led them to win ALL the battles, but because of HOW they led them into these battles. Remember? The results are up to Krsna - in every case.

However, I agree that he should be more 'sannyasi-like' for his own protection (that is REAL sannyasa standard, not the washed up Iskcon concoction). by kula

 

I know this statement by kulapavana is said in love and care.

 

As far as Idradyumna Maharaja's preaching goes it effects the heart of many. A sannyasas preaching should not have to conform and be put in a stereo-type box.

In Iskcon, a cult of sannyasa has developed and gigantic false egoes were institutionalized. People who really had no business getting sannyasa, asked for it and received it from Prabhupada, and later from his disciples. Because they were not qualified spiritually or materially, most of these people fell down, making a miserable mess in our movement.

I believe that re-introducing sannyasa into Gaudiya Vaishnavism was a mistake, and introducing sannyasa in the West was a disaster. Aside from some rare and notable positive examples, sannyasa asram only serves to facilitate the fame, profit and prestige.

Devotees like Indradyumna Maharaja could easily do what they are doing as householders. It would be much safer and natural for them and for our movement.

What in your estimation is 'good preaching'? He 'preached' at New Dwarka and I hardly would have called it good, interrupting the Bhagavatam class to read from his diary so he could sell it.

I see the effects of that preaching: new devotees joining in Poland and Russia, and new congregation members eager to lern more about KC.

How has he done this? By writing his silly diary? By associating intimately with women? By glorifying himself on the travel circuit? He is misleading rather than bringing 'krishna contest to the west'.

He organizes very successful festivals. Millions of people were exposed to KC through their media.

However, I agree that he should be more 'sannyasi-like' for his own protection (that is REAL sannyasa standard, not the washed up Iskcon concoction).

Indramuna Swami has done more to bring krishna contest to the west than you realise. It is entirely unacceptable to talk about a spiritual master in this way, a real vaisnava would realise this.

Yes, he has. He is also one of the more open-minded Iskcon gurus when it comes to cooperating with other Vaishnava organizations. He may not be perfect but he is doing a lot of good preaching.

I can't get into that mentality but whatever floats your boat. I have read too much about manipulation by physical gurus in Iskcon to get excited by that approach to things.

My heroes are not the Iskcon gurus but the saints of Vraja. Have you read that book by OBL Kapoor? It is pure nectar. I believe that in some future lifetime I will have the priviledge to serve and associate with such saints.

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<CENTER>VRINDAVAN 1981</CENTER></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>stoned cold...</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Thanks for the info, Mahaksa-ji.