Kulapavana

If this were the case then after his heart attack in 1967 Prabhupada would have permanently retired to India, wrote his books from there and sent audio cassette tapes of his lectures and talks back to his Western temples. But he didn't he contiuned despite failing health to travel all over the world to give his association and initiate disciples.

He also physically CAME to America in the first place, and did not just send a trunk with books to a bookstore in New York. Without his PHYSICAL presence there absolutely NOTHING would have happened.

I am definetly not qualified but I do think it would be theoretically possible to internally take diksa from Prabhupada and couldn't blame someone who is qualified for doing so considering the minefield that the living guru option is and the ritvik option is.

You honestly think that some neophyte reading a book has what it takes to RECEIVE the diksa mantras internally from Prabhupada?? Give me break, man..

Could it be possible they're doing it, not due to lack of compassion, but on account of ignorance? I mean, killing (after knowing the consequences) is one thing, but what of people who're GENUINELY convinced they're obeying god by doing such acts?

Genuine and sincere ignorance is still just ignorance. And no, most Christians do not care about the suffering of the animals but they DO consider themselves completely and supremely pious. Their compassion just does not extend to other living entities. And that is why they are NOT Vaishnavas.

I get the difference between a formal diksa and an essential one. You don't seem to get it though.

What you dont get, is that you have to have BOTH.

Prabhupada's disciples keep concocting new definitions for everything, just for their convenience, re-discovering America hidden under a sheet of newspaper...

I thought I even read somewhere about a spiritual master taking formal diksa from a picture of his guru or something like that.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta took sannyasa initiation in front of a picture of his babaji guru, Srila Gaurakishora, taking the sannyasa mantra internally from his guru.

I dare anybody to proclaim they are qualified to do the same with their diksa.

I wonder about the status of those 'Guadiya Vaisvanas' that chose to remain in India while Prabhupad travelled the word to preach the mission of Lord Caitanya. When I hear how so many 'Vaisnavas' believe this and that - especially of a religious institutional nature, I am skeptical - why didn't they help Prabhupada, join forces with him instead of criticizing him for 'compromising'

what ever happened to to just being a humble servant of Krsna? You mean unless all these Vaishnavas went to preach in America they are useless??? What kind of karma-kanda thinking is that? Prabhupada's Godbrothers helped him on numerous ocassions. If he was not happy with them, that is between them only, not me. I have never heard any of his Godbrothers openly say such cutting words as Prabhupada said about them. Still, it is their fight, not mine.

That objection is easily countered. There are number of tapes of Prabupada chanting.

1. Many Vaishnavas claim that mantra cannot be reproduced by mechanical means. I tend to agree with them.

2. Prabhupada is not chanting there on these tapes to give you specifically a diksa. Again: you can not TAKE the mantra, either from a book. or from a tape.

You can't possibly be serious that reading the Gita -(song of God) is not sravanam. Krsna, the spiritual master speaks through it.

Reading a book is not sravanam. Hearing the Gita verses sung and explained by devotees in a class IS sravanam. This is how the books were always meant to be used.

Its just another version of the living guru debate. I can't to Kulapavana's mentality that you have to have a living guru reading the Vedas to you in order to get the mercy of the spiritual master especially considering the guru that Kulapavana recieved the mantra from apparently not only felldown but also stole a bunch of money on the way out.

To each their own. Any guru is merely a tool and a servant of Sri Guru, Krsna. I received the mantra in the chain of disciplic succession. That is all that counts. I did not take the mantra from the book. It was given to me by a then representative of Parampara.

You can be a disciple of Prabhupada without getting diksa from him. No problem. But claiming to be getting diksa from a departed guru is a joke. Only the brainwashed Iskcon devotees buy such fairytales.

Exactly and as such you have confused the external (religiosity) with the potency (sakti). It isn't suprising as a religious Hindu that you think the way you do. You have been brainwashed.

Some things Prabhupada introduced to the tradition were useful, and some were not. Chanting japa by the un-initiated bhaktas is not that controversial, still - it is a departure from the Vedic tradition and a compromise.

Please - the vani vibrates in many forms - the whole universe is made of sound vibration - this is fundamental and you haven't even learned that.

Think for a second before you embark on another BS promotion:

Why is sravanam different from kirtanam? Both are sound vibration, yet sravanam is receiving sabda brahman through your ears, not through your eyes. Why? because that sound is REAL and primeval, while the marks on paper are just illusory and symbolic.

Mantra is REAL and cannot be transmitted through visual and symbolic media.

Uninitiated bhaktas chanting japa on beads is something Prabhupada introduced in the West. It was NOT DONE in the Gaudiya matha, and even nowadays is not done outside Iskcon.

So reception by reading Prabhupada's books should be valid.

Srvanam kirtanam.

THAT IS SRAVANAM!!!! Hearing!!! Not reading! IT ALL STARTS WITH A SOUND!!! Not with watching letters on paper!

Beat it into your head: it starts with a SOUND VIBRATION!

So much for book distribution.

I strongly suspect that I translated, printed, and distributed more Prabhupada's books than you did, so spare me the sarcasm. Books go out and people come to hear from devotees. This is how it works.

Evam parampara-praptam: In this way, by disciplic succession, the knowledge is coming down. Sa kaleneha mahata yogo nastah parantapa: But in the course of time the succession was broken. Therefore, Krsna says, I am speaking it to you again. So a mantra should be received from the disciplic succession. The Vedic injunction is sampradaya-vihina ye mantras te nisphala matah. If your mantra does not come through the disciplic succession, it will not be effective. Mantras te nisphala. Nisphala means that it will not produce the desired result. So the mantra must be received through the proper channel, or it will not act. A mantra cannot be manufactured. It must come from the original Supreme Absolute, coming down through the channel of disciplic succession. It has to be received in that way, and only then will it act.

According to our Krsna consciousness philosophy, the mantra is coming down through four channels of disciplic succession: one through Lord siva, one through the goddess Laksmi, one through Lord Brahma, and one through the four Kumaras. The same thing comes down through different channels. These are called the four sampradayas, or disciplic successions. So, one has to take his mantra from one of these four sampradayas; then only is that mantra active. If we receive the mantra in that way, it will be effective. And if one does not receive his mantra through one of these sampradaya channels, then it will not act; it will not give fruit.

September 14, 1969 Conversation with John, Yoko, and George Harrison

If someone reads Prabhupada's books and starts chanting as a result is that considered as recieving the mantra from a guru?

No, it is not, at least in my opinion. Even the Mahamantra should be received from a devotee. Getting a Maha-mantra from another devotee is not considered a diksa, but it is still receiving a mantra from a proper source, not taking it.

Where does it say that in the Gita.

Gita is only a very small part of the Vedic scripture. Some things are merely indicated there without going into detail.

Based on the Vedic tradition MANTRA MUST BE RECEIVED FROM A GURU. You can not just take the mantra. You must receive it. That is the system in all Vedic schools, not just Vaishnavas.

The Gita doesn't mention diksa.

Why is this important - is it status - a credential that one can boast about - a gateway to God? It all smacks of mundane religiosity and I want none of it.

Of the great sages I am Bhrgu; of vibrations I am the transcendental om. Of sacrifices I am the chanting of the holy names [japa], and of immovable things I am the Himalayas.

--

there is no mantra-japa without diksa

Ch.10 Text 35

"Of the hymns in the Sama Veda I am the Brihat-sama, and of poetry I am the Gayatri. Of months I am Margasirsa [November-December], and of seasons I am flower-bearing spring."

----

There is no Gayatri without diksa

In this world there is no guarantee that you will live through tomorrow, let alone trough 2012. Based on Vedic knowledge our Earth will most definitely exist for many more millions of years.

Those sinful persons who are ignorant of actual religious principles, yet consider themselves to be completely pious, without compunction commit violence against innocent animals who are fully trusting in them. In their next lives, such sinful persons will be eaten by the same creatures they have killed in this world.

Yet somehow Christianity and these Christians are to be considered Vaishnavism and Vaishnavas??? Bogus! Totally bogus!

when one is in a very dark cave even a glow worm seems very illuminating

we need to appreciate what little light we have, but we should not mistake that for the ultimate illumination

talking about diksa in the non-Vaishnava context is misleading IMO. they have an equivalent of some vedic samskaras, but not diksa. Diksa very specifically is RECEIVING THE VAISHNAVA MANTRA. Without receiving mantra there is no diksa. that Vaishnava mantra IS the divine knowledge.

There is no diksa in Christianity.

According to a leading Gaudiya Vaisnava guru HDG Srila Prabhupada

Did he EVER consider anybody to be an INITIATED disciple without first undergoing a formal diksa?

if not (and that is precisely the case), than all such talk should be seen as merely emphasizing a deeper sense of diksa.

to make it simple:

without a formal diksa nobody should claim to be a diksa-initiated disciple of anyone.

I have neither the qualifications nor the desire to become anybody's guru

and taking on 10,000 disciples? Forget it! I do not believe in the mega-guru system. If a guru is unable to personally guide each and every one of his disciples he should stop initiating.

Instead of inventing new definitions of diksa, we should simply try to understanding the REAL MEANING of diksa (upanayana) as it is given in our tradition. Of course diksa is more than just the ceremony, but without that formal ceremony there is also no diksa.