Kulapavana

That is a lie. The Gaudiya Math were implicated quite seriously in the present system. Prabhupada warned against bureaucracy and centralization.

In 1977 Prabhupada created an institution of GBC for life, which went against his earlier DOM instructions. DOM itself provides for certain level of centralization as well. BBT was centralized from day 1 by Prabhupada. To blame Iskcon bureaucracy and centralization on GM is a total joke, invented by the GBC Isk-CON artists to cover up their own failures.

Your arrogant claim to private knowledge is noted.

Of course. The Emperors Clothes again. And of course that's all you have to bring to the table is your unmanifest supposed understanding.

I don't need to ask myself anything. It has already been said by the sastras and Prabhupada.

This is what shastras and Prabhupada say about diksa for example - no out of context single line quotes:

CC Madhya Ch.15. TEXT 108

TEXT

diksa-purascarya-vidhi apeksa na kare

jihva-sparse a-candala sabare uddhare

SYNONYMS

diksa--initiation; purascarya--activities before initiation; vidhi--regulative principles; apeksa--reliance on; na--not; kare--does; jihva--the tongue; sparse--by touching; a-candala--even to the lowest of men, the candala; sabare--everyone; uddhare--delivers.

TRANSLATION

"One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

PURPORT

Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksa in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):

divyam jnanam yato dadyat

kuryat papasya sanksayam

tasmad dikseti sa prokta

desikais tattva-kovidaih

"Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa." The regulative principles of diksa are explained in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.3,4) and in Bhakti-sandarbha (283). As stated:

dvijanam anupetanam svakarmadhyayanadisu

yathadhikaro nastiha syac copanayanad anu

tathatradiksitanam tu mantra-devarcanadisu

nadhikaro 'sty atah kuryad atmanam siva-samstutam

"Even though born in a brahmana family, one cannot engage in Vedic rituals without being initiated and having a sacred thread. Although born in a brahmana family, one becomes a brahmana after initiation and the sacred thread ceremony. Unless one is initiated as a brahmana, he cannot worship the holy name properly."

According to the Vaisnava regulative principles, one must be initiated as a brahmana. The Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.6) quotes the following injunction from the Visnu-yamala:

adiksitasya vamoru

krtam sarvam nirarthakam

pasu-yonim avapnoti

diksa-virahito janah

"Unless one is initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, all his devotional activities are useless. A person who is not properly initiated can descend again into the animal species."

Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.10) further quotes:

ato gurum pranamyaivam

sarva-svam vinivedya ca

grhniyad vaisnavam mantram

diksa-purvam vidhanatah

"It is the duty of every human being to surrender to a bona fide spiritual master. Giving him everything-body, mind and intelligence-one must take a Vaisnava initiation from him."

The Bhakti-sandarbha (298) gives the following quotation from the Tattva-sagara:

yatha kancanatam yati

kasyam rasa-vidhanatah

tatha diksa-vidhanena

dvijatvam jayate nrnam

"By chemical manipulation, bell metal is turned into gold when touched by mercury; similarly, when a person is properly initiated, he can acquire the qualities of a brahmana."

The Hari-bhakti-vilasa (17.11,12) in discussing the purascarya process, quotes the following verses from Agastya-samhita:

puja traikaliki nityam

japas tarpanam eva ca

homo brahmana-bhuktis ca

purascaranam ucyate

guror labdhasya mantrasya

prasadena yatha-vidhi

pancangopasana-siddhyai

puras caitad vidhiyate

"In the morning, afternoon and evening, one should worship the Deity, chant the Hare Krsna mantra, offer oblations, perform a fire sacrifice, and feed the brahmanas. These five activities constitute purascarya. To attain full success when taking initiation from the spiritual master, one should first perform these purascarya processes."

The word purah means "before" and carya means "activities." Due to the necessity of these activities, we do not immediately initiate disciples in the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. For six months, a candidate for initiation must first attend arati and classes in the sastras, practice the regulative principles and associate with other devotees. When one is actually advanced in the purascarya-vidhi, he is recommended by the local temple president for initiation. It is not that anyone can be suddenly initiated without meeting the requirements. When one is further advanced by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra sixteen rounds daily, following the regulative principles and attending classes, he receives the sacred thread (brahminical recognition) after the second six months.

In the Hari-bhakti-vilasa (17.4,5,7) it is stated:

vina yena na siddhah syan

mantro varsa-satair api

krtena yena labhate

sadhako vanchitam phalam

purascarana-sampanno

mantro hi phala-dhayakah

atah puraskriyam kuryat

mantravit siddhi-kanksaya

puraskriya hi mantranam

pradhanam viryam ucyate

virya-hino yatha dehi

sarva-karmasu na ksamah

purascarana-hino hi

tatha mantrah prakirtitah

"Without performing the purascarya activities, one cannot become perfect even by chanting this mantra for hundreds of years. However, one who has undergone the purascarya-vidhi process can attain success very easily. If one wishes to perfect his initiation, he must first undergo the purascarya activities. The purascarya process is the life-force by which one is successful in chanting the mantra. Without the life-force, one cannot do anything; similarly, without the life force of purascarya-vidhi, no mantra can be perfected."

In his Bhakti-sandarbha (283), Srila Jiva Gosvami states:

yadyapi sri-bhagavata-mate pancaratradi-vat arcana-margasya avasyakatvam nasti, tad vinapi saranapattyadinam ekatarenapi purusartha-siddher abhihitatvat, tathapi sri-naradadi-vartmanusaradbhih sri-bhagavata saha sambandha-visesam diksa-vidhanena sri-guru-carana-sampaditam cikirsadbhih krtayam diksayam arcanam avasyam kriyetaiva.

Of similar importance is diksa, which is explained as follows in Bhakti-sandarbha (284):

yadyapi svarupato nasti, tathapi prayah svabhavato dehadi-sambandhena kardaya-silanam viksipta-cittanam jananam tat-tat-sankoci-karanaya srimad-rsi-prabhrtibhir atrarcana-marge kvacit kvacit kacit kacin maryada sthapitasti.

Similarly in the Ramarcana-candrika it is stated:

vinaiva diksam viprendra

purascaryam vinaiva hi

vinaiva nyasa-vidhina

japa-matrena siddhida

In other words, the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra is so powerful that it does not depend on official initiation, but if one is initiated and engages in pancaratra-vidhi (Deity worship), his Krsna consciousness will awaken very soon, and his identification with the material world will be vanquished.

--------

Prabhupada is translating 'jihva' in this verse one time as 'tongue', one time as 'lips'. But not tape recording

And where on earth do you get an impression from these quotes that diksa is some unimportant formality???

What cbrahma doesn't know: 1) the holy name of Krsna is Krsna, it is not an attribute of Krsna, bhinnatvama nama namino. 2) The goal of The Krsna Consciousness Movement is not Krsna, it is Krsna prema, love of Krsna, prema pumartho mahan. You can only get love of Krsna from someone who has it. Although it is lying dormant in our hearts in must be unlocked by someone who has it unlocked.

Part of this process is to receive the holy name from someone who is well along on the path to Krsna prema.

 

Let's not forget how much the Gaudiya Math contributed to its present ecclesiastical structure - gurus under an umbrella of authority called the GBC. In one word -control. Another word - cheating.

As Beggar pointed out, the present day managerial structure of Iskcon is what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Prabhupada thought would work best as a world-wide preaching institution. The traditional Vaishnavism NEVER looked like that. Thus your argument is with these two visionary acharyas. Authority and control does not have to be equivalent to cheating. It all depends on the quality of people in charge.

I was refering to the philosophical dumbing down of Vaishnavism and it's transformation into just another branch of Judeo-Christian kaitava-dharma: cheating religion.

According to Gaudiya-Vaisnava siddhanta - the Holy Name , being an attribute of Krsna is non-different from Him. But suddenly His attribute is limited by forms of reproduction - in fact his own potency? Ridiculous! (material conception)

Ask yourself a question: What precisely is the Holy Name? Is computer generated sound: "krishna" a Holy Name? How come this 'non-different from Krsna' Holy Name can be contaminated by non-devotees just as milk touched by the fangs of the serpent? Can Krsna be contaminated? One more time: What IS the Holy Name?

Yes, Holy Name is limited by forms of reproduction: it can not be reproduced by non-devotees or machines. Is that simple enough for you?

In your naive and childish simplicity you argue about things you clearly do not comprehend.

Prefers or considers it bogus? You seemed to have put a spin on it in NM's favor Beggar. I could be wrong but that is how it seems to me. I had numerous confrontations from NM disciples a few years back on this point and they all quoted NM as saying taped transfer of mantra was bogus and those initiations were not real.

Most Vaishnavas outside Iskcon do not think that the Gayatri mantra can be reproduced by a mechanical device, as the mantra is based on the vibration in the ether created by consciousness.

Of course it can also be said that if Krsna wants to make a tape recording diksa initiation 'real', He certainly can. Prabhupada used tape recording out of sheer necessity, not mere convenience.

There have been systematic attempts of the Iskcon Vaishnavas influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition, to strip Vaishnavism of all it's mysticism and unique character, and to reduce it to yet another Christianity-type belief system. The mantras have become 'prayers', the diksa initiation became optional and symbolic 'baptism', the senior Vaishnava gurus became 'priests'. They claim that all you need is the books (which became 'the Bible') of one and only true 'savior', Srila Prabhupada.

It is all bogus, however well intentioned.

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How much other agriculture products go towards feeding cattle used for slaughter???

 

I have started to see that people are starting to realise the wastefull nature of beef farming and its negative impact on the environment.

 

Very little grains is used to raise cattle. They are still raised primarily on pastures. Pigs and poultry on the other hand consume a lot of grains.

Still, the sobering thought is that ancient Egiptians had 5 years worth of food grains stored for their people, while US has only enough grains to make a 1/2 of loaf of bread for each of it's citizens.

there have been systematic attempts of the Vaishnavas influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition, to strip Vaishnavism of all it's mysticism and unique character, and to reduce it to yet another Christianity-type belief system. The mantras have become 'prayers', the dikisa initiation became 'baptism', the senior Vaishnava gurus became 'priests'. They claim that all you need is the books (which became 'the Bible') of one and only true 'savior', Srila Prabhupada.

It is all bogus, however well intentioned.

<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top>TriStateObserver</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD vAlign=top>Published: June 6, 2008 </TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD vAlign=top></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>US Has No Reserve of Food

<!-- Ukraine famine V2.0 -->WASHINGTON - Larry Matlack, President of the American Agriculture Movement (AAM), has raised concerns over the issue of U.S. grain reserves after it was announced that the sale of 18.37 million bushels of wheat from USDA’s Commodity Credit Corporation (CCC) Bill Emerson Humanitarian Trust.

“According to the May 1, 2008 CCC inventory report there are only 24.1 million bushels of wheat in inventory, so after this sale there will be only 2.7 million bushels of wheat left the entire CCC inventory,” warned Matlack. “Our concern is not that we are using the remainder of our strategic grain reserves for humanitarian relief. AAM fully supports the action and all humanitarian food relief. Our concern is that the U.S. has nothing else in our emergency food pantry. There is no cheese, no butter, no dry milk powder, no grains or anything else left in reserve. The only thing left in the entire CCC inventory will be 2.7 million bushels of wheat which is about enough wheat to make ½ of a loaf of bread for each of the 300 million people in America.”

The CCC is a federal government-owned and operated entity that was created to stabilize, support, and protect farm income and prices. CCC is also supposed to maintain balanced and adequate supplies of agricultural commodities and aids in their orderly distribution.

“This lack of emergency preparedness is the fault of the 1996 farm bill which eliminated the government’s grain reserves as well as the Farmer Owned Reserve (FOR),” explained Matlack. “We had hoped to reinstate the FOR and a Strategic Energy Grain Reserve in the new farm bill, but the politics of food defeated our efforts. As farmers it is our calling and purpose in life to feed our families, our communities, our nation and a good part of the world, but we need better planning and coordination if we are to meet that purpose. AAM pledges to continue our work for better farm policy which includes an FOR and a Strategic Energy Grain Reserve.”

AAM’s support for the FOR program, which allows the grain to be stored on farms, is a key component to a safe grain reserve in that the supplies will be decentralized in the event of some unforeseen calamity which might befall the large grain storage terminals.

A Strategic Energy Grain Reserve is as crucial for the nation’s domestic energy needs as the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. AAM also supports full funding for the replenishment and expansion of Bill Emerson Humanitarian Trust.

The May 1, 2008 CCC Inventory report may be reviewed here: http://www.fsa.usda.gov/Internet/FSA_File/wid2a.pdf.

So much to say about what is real diksa. As so many have thought to be given diksa but later realized that no real diksa took place as the guru was not authorized by KRSNA in parampara (to give diksa).

We are all just tools in Krsna's hands, even those we see as most unqualified. When a parcel is delivered to the recipient on Krsna's list, nobody cares that the mailman was drunk or had dirty underwear at the time of delivery.

Prabhupada knew some of his disciples were crooks, yet he still used them because he was hoping they will cheat less and less with time, with more and more actually going to the mission. All we can hope for is to be used by Krsna more and more often.

Actually, surrender as taught by our acharyas is under-emphasized. Perhaps what's over-emphasized is a misunderstanding of what surrender is. Actually, the essence of surrender is complete dependence on Krishna for everything. Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Saranagati prayers explore quite well what surrender is and what it may look like. Surrender is the gateway to bhakti, and, the Thakura says, Sri Nanda Kumar actually hears the prayers of those actively engaged in surrender.

In Iskcon that surrender is replaced with a demand for blind, unquestioning acceptance of any official authority and party line, as well as parrot-like repetition of philosophy without any in depth understanding. A respect for the guru is replaced with a stalinist type personality cult where the role of Krsna as Sri Guru is completely marginalized and where rationality is labelled as 'offensive mentality'. That is not surrender but insanity. What truly surrendered Vaishnava would find fault in Sridhara Maharaja for example? Such behavior is a proof of insanity caused by surrendering to the wrong influence.

The teachings are available without formal admittance. What is this so-called school?

You are not a member of the particular sampradaya unless you get a diksa from the guru representing it. The school is the sampradaya. Without diksa mantras you are not even a Vaishnava. That is the conclusion of Hari Bhakti Vilasa as quoted earlier.

This is a thread about diksa and Prabhupada's instructions on the subject. You can endlessly dodge firm instructions by constantly throwing them up to question against this text or that guru, or that sadhu. If that guru truly belongs to the sampradaya what is the need?

Prabhupada's firm instruction and practical example is that you get a diksa from a proper sampradaya. Do you see me question that? You are the one questioning the need for diksa and the one coming up with new definitions of what diksa is.

If you find yourself continually 'checking' your diksa guru's teachings after he has initiated you - then where is your commitment - your surrender to him as your initiator. When you take a class, if you are constantly checking your teacher against other teachers why bother taking the class from that teacher? Very offensive.

The 'surrender' bit is way over-emphasized in Iskcon. When you learn you always have a teacher, a book, and other experts on the subject available to you. I have spent many years in various schools - that is a system and there is nothing offensive about it.

Bogus. What is in? The beginning of a learning process. The real learning takes place afterwards - that is what siksa is all about.

You are not getting into the school without being formally accepted. If you insist on staying outside and listening to the class through an open widow it is still called learning, but you are not really in school and you only get part of the lesson.

On questions Prabhupada's teachings conform perfectly with his spiritual master and his spiritual master before him.

And you know that exactly HOW? Did Bhaktisiddhanta ever said we fell from Goloka? Or that the Sun is closer to Earth than Moon?

And what exactly do you know about the teachings of Srila Gaurakishora?

Blind faith is good, but the actual knowledge is better, even when the emerging truth is much more complicated than we initially thought.

When accepting a guru as a representative of the parampara you accept that he is the embodiment of that parampara. The cross checking he describes may be a part of one's search in finding a guru but it must be given up once one finds and surrenders to someone as guru.

 

Endlessly cross-checking and doubting is a symptom of being stuck on the mental plane.

 

Actually despite all his preaching to us about the need to formally accept a guru Kulapavana himself has yet to accept a guru himself despite his ceremony from a zonal 'guru'.

1. Cross checking is always relevant

2. It is not a question of doubt. It is a question of proper understanding. Prabhupada's statements MUST be understood in the light of previous acharyas. Concoctions such as ritvikism and sleeper-vada are prime examples of what happens if one decides to rely on his guru's statements alone.

3. The formal acceptance of siksa guru by me is my own private matter, but I can tell you that there are two living Vaishnavas that I see in that category at the present moment.

Apparently you don't understand analogy. If admission is formality then so is the diksa initation ritual.

It can also be said that you are not getting in without that 'formality'.

Well Prabhupada himself gave that example, but as usual you reject.

 

Prabhupāda: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge…knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality.

He also said the same thing I said. I do not reject. I try to understand. I was never anybody's parrot.

Prabhupada used to explain it this way. A student graduates at school. He passed through all the tests and finally when having finished the school days there's a diploma. This diploma however is nothing but a formality, a graduation ceremony of having gone through the whole school education.

Diksa is nothing like graduation. It is more like your first day in school - an Admission Day.

For example, after a won tennis game it is a general etiquette to offer someone a drink. And to give as an answer: no sir, I can not give you a beer, because it's against my principles, only invokes envy. So this is really a dilemma to me. My solution today was to just give the person the beer, because I thought, well just one beer wouldn't really harm. Does anybody have any thoughts on this?

Sometimes it is best to turn the situation into a bit of humor, by saying for example: "Sir, I can only buy you a non-alcoholic beer, as this is what my principles are". If you say it with an honest smile chances are people will understand.

I sometimes have even a bigger problem: When taking business clients to lunch they often order meat. Technically speaking I do not pay for their meal - the company I work for does - yet there is some implication on my part as well.

In this world it is hard to completely avoid implication into sinful activities - yet we must try to do our best.

Good luck to you!

Most of the devotees I talked to said that their initiation was a momentous, life altering experience. Like a lightening bolt? perhaps, but not in the sense of gaining cheap power. Bhaktivinoda Thakura wrote this about his diksa:

"While I was living in Narail I took diksha along with my wife. I had been searching for a suitable guru for a long time but I did not find one. I was very unhappy on that account. I had done much anxious thinking, and in a dream Prabhu diminished my unhappiness.

In the dream I got a hint. That day I became happy. One or two days later Gurudeva wrote to me saying, "I will come quickly and give you diksha." Gurudeva came and diksha was given. My mind was satisfied. From that very day the sinful reaction from meat eating went from my heart and mercy arose in me towards the jivas."

I don't know that you have. Just the way you speak it seems like you see yourself as the ultimate authority on Gaudiya Vaishnavism and on Prabhupada and his intentions etc and I am not convinced that is brahmanical in quality but who knows for sure.

I am not an ultimate authority on anything. None of us here are. But I do know a thing or two about GV and Prabhupada's intentions. I am also not rich in brahminical qualities yet I will try to object to what I see is a distortion of the teachings of our sampradaya. Even a sadhaka is expected to do that.

Prabhupada is the guru - o wise and all-knowing sadhu.

I don't want to start another on that topic. But the Moon business is the least of the instructions that you re-interpret according to your puffed up religionist needs.

Yes, Prabhupada is one of the gurus in the Saraswata line of the Gaudiya Vaishnavism and his statements must be compared to the statements of his guru, other Vaishnava acharyas, and Vaishnava shastras. And things like the Moon issue show that you have to apply some discretion when it comes to blind acceptance of everything he ever said.