primate

"Only the Supreme Personality of Godhead is called The One Godhead." If The One Godhead is equated with the whole of reality, He must be (impersonal) Brahman. Otherwize He is The Supreme Personality of Godhead, or (personal) Krishna..

"There is no Personality called The One Godhead." No, only the Supreme Personality of Godhead..

No. Abraham evidently was a man and Yaweh his god. Brahman is never a man. But Krishna was a man in His pastimes. And even Krishna must be 'ignorant' to some degree. After all, an individual person cannot be equated with the absolute whole of reality..

These statements apparently were made by Peres at the Hilton hotel in Tel-Aviv on 10th October 2007.. http://www.mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=570735

There’s no point in stretching this chaos metaphor much further. I can envision chaos in my mind, and it is without question the most powerful complete theory of physical reality imaginable. But a true theory of everything, necessarily includes human consciousness and spirituality. Looking for consciousness in a chaotic oscillation, is of course a purely theoretical exercise. Luckily, chaos makes it very easy for us. There is just one candidate: the infinite singular chaotic oscillation itself. It makes a lot of sense. All individual or personal consciousness originates from the impersonal Brahman. And chaos theory indicates that it’s more than likely that a hierarchy of conscious persons and more supreme conscious persons exists, possibly with Krishna at the top. Thus, in a chaos theoretical perspective, Brahman must be the Absolute Origin of all consciousness, and Krishna must be its Supreme Personality. I guess it’s only a matter of taste and religious tradition which you would prefer to call God..

Yes, just don't overlook the fact that chaos is infinite order..

I guess you can imagine reality like the Mandelbrot-set. But the Mandelbrot-set is not produced by a real physical system. I referred to it only to illustrate the concept of infinite fractal structure (i.e., structure with a broken - or fractional dimension). The simplest physical system imaginable is a single point in space. When we assume that this point continuously describes a (nonlinear) trajectory in a limited volume of space, and that its eternal trajectory never exactly repeats itself, then we talk about a chaotic oscillation. I argued that such a chaotic system is all that needs to exist in order to describe our entire physical reality; including the most fundamental (quantum) level, as well as the largest scales of planets and galaxies. Now, the question is: Can a chaotic oscillation also explain God and individual human consciousness, as portrayed in Vedic scriptures? A possible argument in favour of such an assertion goes as follows: According to scripture, all is one (Brahman). And an oscillating point in empty space is also one (after all, the point is all that actually exists). So in our model, this singular point must be the Brahman from which everything originates. How can this be? Well, imagine that the point or atomic entity, is infinitely conscious or cognizant. All there is for it to be cognizant of, however, is its own eternal chaotic trajectory in space. And although a (continuous) chaotic oscillation in space will appear to behave completely unpredictable or random, the nature of chaos is such, that a (discontinues) projection of a chaotic oscillation will reveal its hidden infinite structure. My idea is that Brahman is infinitely conscious (or cognizant) of all possible phase projections of its own chaotic trajectory in space. We are a projection of Brahman, and we are his awareness of us. Human consciousness is an incomplete (fractional, discontinuous, ignorant) projection of Brahman’s cognizance. Krishna is the complete projection of Brahman; the supreme form and personality of Brahman; indeed, like the overall form in the Mandelbrot-set. Humans can only be a fraction of Krishna, within Brahman. The physics involved can all be confirmed in computer simulations. However, the religious idea of a cognizant chaotic oscillation being the origin of all individual consciousness is, of course, purely speculative.. So, what do you think?

It is your own idea.

Do you think human souls have transcendental rights?

The working of computers is very different from the working of our brain. In fact, science doesn't have a clue about how the brain works. This is an unsolved mystery in science. But of course it is possible that Vyasadeva envisioned chaos in his mind.. That would be an important conclusion! Do you mean that in this chaos methaphor, you see (impersonal) Brahman as the all pervading dynamic mechanism of (conscious) chaos, and Vishnu/Krishna as the emergent cognizant personality, of whom in turn our individual human consciousness originates? This would also be my conclusion/interpretation. And I think it agrees with Vedic literature..

I mean, the object may be the subject: consciousness itself.. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>

Yes, but what is 'cognizant'? Cognizant of what? The term cognizant means: having knowledge or understanding or realization or perception or awareness. This seems to only just transcend our ordinary notion of consciousness, which doesn’t need to be knowledgeable per se. Again, a cognizant person needs an object to be cognizant (or conscious) of. I proposed that this object is a chaotically oscillating atomic singularity or point in space, which must be the simplest possible model of all infinite complexity that we consciously observe in reality, including quantum physical phenomena. When this person is cognizant of all continuous states of the (original) point or system or atomic particle in space, it would also be aware of all the infinite inherent fractal structure present within all possible discontinuous phase-projections of the system, including our own individual human consciousness. For all practical purposes, He might be the system. And we might be His awareness of us. Finally, Vyasadeva couldn’t have known about the existence of chaos. It was only after the invention of the first (super) computers, that scientists learned about the surprising infinite order within extremely simple physical systems through computational simulations of such systems. And even if Vyasadeva new about chaos, it would have been pointless to use the metaphor in Srimad Bhagavatam, because at the time no one else would be able to understand it.

No. Just as Chaos Theory isn’t similar to (microscopic) Quantum Mechanics, but includes Quantum Mechanics, it also isn’t similar to Big Bang theory, but includes a (macroscopic) classical mechanical view of reality. In other words, Big Bang Theory (and General Relativity for that matter) is compatible with a Chaos Theory of reality. In this sense, Chaos Theory provides a unification of physics. Actually Chaos Theory doesn’t need a big bang to explain the observed expanding universe. A chaotic oscillation would describe an eternally expanding and contracting (oscillating) universe. The only question of origin is: Where does 'conscious chaos' come from?

In quantum mechanics, the evolution of quantum systems is described by Schrödinger wave equations. As such, a quantum system is formalized as a superposition of all its possible states in terms of probability amplitudes, which basically can be conceived of as ordinary probabilities. When a 'quantum measurement' is made, the wave function 'collapses' and a specific quantum state actualizes in reality. The most popular interpretation of quantum mechanics is the Quantum Multiverse or the Many-Worlds Hypothesis. It asserts that zillions of parallel universes are being created every instant, through acts of quantum measurement. The universe or reality 'splits in two' every time a measurement is made. Since consciousness and reality continuously exist, quantum measurements apparently happen all the time, and there must be a googolplex of parallel universes. However, without a more detailed proposal as to what the process of quantum wave function collapse actually is, and what sort of experimental predictions it can make, the whole idea is just metaphysics. All quantum measurement proposals are lacking in that none provide any sort of detailed description of the actual mechanics of wave function collapse. They attempt to resolve the meta-physical paradoxes without proposing the physics. Chaos Theory is not a complete model of reality either, as it doesn’t explain consciousness. But it does show us how a whole lot of unpredictable things can happen in a very short amount of time, whereas a chaotic system is completely deterministic (non-probabilistic). And I believe that chaos theory indicates a very fundamental aspect of the nature of the actual physical mechanism that underlies quantum mechanics and human consciousness..

Have a nice day.

BTW, Melvin1, I guess you’re okay..

So it was set forth in posts #176 & #185-187, that our individual (discontinuous) manifest world might be just one of an infinite number of possible phase-projections of a singular all pervading (continuous) consciousness. Moreover, I showed that such infinite systems actually exist in mathematical chaos theory. Oneness means that ultimately all infinite structure in our world is a function of a unitary and infinitely conscious oscillation, into which everything ultimately resolves. Ignorance is explained as our individual consciousness being a mere fraction of this original consciousness. We are only conscious of reality during infinitely short moments at regular timed intervals or frequencies, which produces our seemingly continuous material world. In fact, the frequency of individual human consciousness may be like the sound Om, but that’s pure speculation. Karma is the perfect equilibrium of the overall system. Our consciousness is just awakening. As a result of our ignorance we are not aware that everything is interrelated and perfectly balanced. But again, the mathematical metaphor of chaos indicates that this must necessarily be true..

What’s illogical about karma? The theory of God/Vishnu/Krishna/etcetera, that I discussed in posts #185-187, is absolutely 100% logical, and I don’t see a conflict with the notion of karma (or reincarnation for that matter)..

What exactly is your problem with cancer? You are a physician, are you not? And you are religious. All is one. People die for their own karma as well as for the karma of others. That’s all..

The above examples show that a simple mathematical formula can create infinite structure. These are iterative systems, which means that the current state of the system is used to calculate its next state, etc. Methods to visualize the complex order hiding within such simple systems vary, but basically some quality or measure of the iterated system is plotted on a computer screen as a function of its position in its so called state-space, or it is plotted as a function of different initial positions of the iterated system. What I described earlier as a 'chaotic oscillation of a physical point in space', is quite similar. In computer simulations, the hidden fractal structure of a chaotic oscillation can be made visible in a so called phase-projection of the system, which means that the positions of the point are plotted at timed intervals on the computer screen. Different intervals produce different projections, although the underlying system is exactly the same. The only problem is, that we (humans) must somehow be part of the system itself. Now imagine that this oscillating point or atomic particle, is infinitely conscious! Then it would be aware of all its infinitely many different phase-projections and all its infinite self-similar fractal structure. I guess we might be one of the infinite qualities of such a unitary consciousness, or God..

The chaotic systems I talk about are characterized by an intrinsic order that manifests itself as self-similar, or fractal structure. For example, many mathematical systems, based on extremely simple iterative formulas, also produce such fractal structures, in which structures similar to the overall structure reoccur within similar structures infinitely, and at all geometrical-scales, although they are never exactly repeated: <br /><br /> <center> <embed src=" " type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object><br /></center><br /> Also see: <br /> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandelbrot_set" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandelbrot_set</a> <a href="http://www.alicia-logic.com/fractals/page.asp?cat=1&page=1" target="_blank">http://www.alicia-logic.com/fractals/page.asp?cat=1&page=1</a><br /><br />

Most quantum physicists and for that matter most physicists, agree that quantum mechanics is not a complete theory of reality, and neither is general relativity theory. Some fundamental principle appears to be missing. Modern science is in search of a so called 'grand unifying theory' that will explain (unify) both quantum mechanics and general relativity. The two most important unsolved problems are gravity and quantum entanglement. A chaotic system theory such as I described, would solve both these problems. And in my view, it would also make sense of two basic religious notions: oneness and (human) ignorance. By the way, I’m not a physicist..

I don't agree..

I don’t claim that my previous post proves that reality is anything like chaotic systems in mathematics. You are right, this is pure speculation. However, when we compare such systems with scientific data, they seem to explain as well as unify, general relativity theory and quantum mechanics; including gravity, quantum entanglement and quantum string-theory. Actually, I only suggested how 'human ignorance' can be understood. But the theory also indicates how 'simultaneous oneness and difference' can be conceived of. The assumption that all consciousness somehow exists as a function of the infinite qualities of an original God (e.g., infinitely fast, infinitely small, infinitely creative, infinitely conscious?), is absolutely necessary for the 'oneness' within the overall equation..