Hiranyagarpa

I aggree on your personal view. But this view is not what I get in this forum by and large. It is the very opposit view that is being forcefully probagated, and even practiced . I know of Vaishnavites who would not drink water from Saivite Brahmins and treat others (even of higher cast non-Vaishnavites ) as untouchables, simply becsause they are not Vaishnavites. Where is the practice of the Non - dual thuth of Veda in their life? It is not a personal attack on You . It is all well for you to sit in some forign country and praise the ISKCON and even other Vaishnava group and think high of Krishna Bakti You may see Krishna as Beautiful Brahman . It may seems to be a fine cut Dimond to you. But we in India at close quarter see the rough and ugly side of the Dimond. I am not against Krishna devotion. But you should know religion - Hindu religion - is not all that clean and holy as you might think . Remember our's is a country wich treated and still treating women as inferior by quoting bhrama sutra, burned women alive by religious sanction, practices untouchability . Many of the posting in this very discussion group refers to and justify the 'Sudra's' inferior statrus. You your self may have noticed that many traditional Vaishnavas believe that forigners are unclean and cannot be Vaishnavas. If you ever visit India go to the famous Krishna temple in Guruivayur in Kerala state. Your beautiful Brahmman _ Krishna , will not let you in, because you are a forigner. Mind you all this is springing from religious doctrines, and indoctrination. Where is the non-dual truth you task about in Vaishnava religion? If it is your personal understanding it is a different matter. But that does not seems to be the dominant Vaishnavite position. Difference is not beautiful. It is ugly. Love does not justify difference as you think. It is hate which is the cause of it. The form of Krishna may be beautiful than the formless Brahman , but the practice that springs from that form is very ugly. Hiranyagarpa.

Hiranyagarpa

But they all claim to be direct and aythentic representatives of Vedic Wisdom with out understanding the vedic Concept of god. The trouble with These Veda-proof ( Veda is gurented not to enter their brain) people is that when there is already a perfect name -with the perfect conception of oneness - for that One God in Veda : Brahman, why invent a new name - Krishna - There by creating a division to start with in contradiction to Vedic spirit of Oneness and then go ahead to convert the world that they found the real truth of Veda, and every one should follow them. What is wrong with the good old Vadic name Bhraman? Hiranyagarpa

Let me answer in Sukha Style. (Sukha was born enlightened and wanted to renounce the world and go to forest When his father Vyas told him that liberation is obtained by following the Orthodex rules. Sukha the born enlightened counters them radically. Though the following response is not exactly Sukhas, as your list is not exactly same as Vyas perscribes for his son, the response matches closely the Sukhas answer to his father). If not eating meat could liberate being ( or whetever equilant you have for liberatioin as ultimate spiritual goal - like Goloka Heven perhaps) , then all the Goaes and fruit wormes would have been liberated ( or attained heaven) by now. If By not gambling one could be liberated then all the animals and mentally retarded would have been liberated. If by not intoxicating one could gain spiritual merit then again most of the animals would gain somuch of spiritual merit. And by not engaging in illict sex if liberation is gained then all the immpotent people would be liberated. No my friend You dont undersetand anything of Hindu spirituality. By just following certain orthodex moral code of the society you dont become spiritual . By not eating onion by not betting in horse race, by not drinking soma rasa (which Vedic rishis themself drank) and by restriting your sex activity with only those licenced by society you dont become spiritual or Hindu. Hiranyagarpa.

Atarva veda is not considered to be an authentiv veda by the vedic tradition. There are many sources for support for this. Vedas are considered to be only three. ( I have many authentic pramanas for this . In case you need tham I can supply next time ). Hence your quate from Atarva veda has no merit. Narayana Upanasid and many other upanasads are not part of genune vedas . They are latter addition. Any thing that does not taly with three vedas ( More stingently , any idea that is not found in Rg veda) is not genunely Vedic . This is an acid test for what is genune. So if you want to quote veda for support quote the first three vedas - or to be more perfect - quote only from Rg veda. Varaha purana is a purana not Veda. As for as Vedic position is concerened Saraba Iyar is right. I know it for certain by my independ research. Why figfht against what is factually true? You will never win that way. The better stratgey for you is to say " Hell with Vedas. Bagavada purana and Vishnu purana are good enough authentic devive sourses . Regardinfg truth of devine, Bagavad geeta alone is enough". That way you will be invinsible. If you try to justify your position by the support of Veda you will only cut a sorry figure, though many foolishly try to do that with out having first hand knowledge of Veda. (They can only fool people who are ignorant of vedas, not who are learmned in Vedas) I am not against Krishna bakti . I am only trying to help you on this issue. Because I tried once all that you are trying and missarably failed as Vedic truth is really otherwise. I discovered it the hard way, with my debate with people who really knows Vedas well. Hiranyagarpa.

Why not? Do you think god is incapable of communicating with a computer? While in the past when printing and even writing was not acvailable god spock directly the message (Sruti) in the age of writing God sent his messages by hand written books (Palm leaf and wood bark texts) In the age of printing technology God arranged to print books in paper. ( like Bagavad purana and Bagavad geeta circulated by ISCON and other organization). Do you believe all that or no? If you do then why now doubt gods ability to reach us by our lattest technology - computer posting? You think that God is a oldfashioned fool who doesnot know how to use a computer terminal or what? . Hiranyagarpa

Dear Saraba Iyar, Pranam . My high regard for a vedic priestly tradition of yours. To be a hotr priest is no joke. Some of the jokers in theis forum has no idea of what it means to be a hotr priest and vainly and arogantly argu with you on Vedic truth with out ever even reading Veda - forget of whether they understand veda or not. My sincire advice to you an experienced man . Do not wast your time and the revered knowledge you possess with a group of fanatics who is never interested to learn the truth. You have provided authentic vedic information which I know to be correct as I did some research on the vedic priest traditions . All authentic vedic traditions in India universally have the same view. You explained the vedic position well and clear. But dont wast your time in convincing fools and fanatics. Rather than learning from you the revered knowledge they will try to teach you and preach you. Leave them with their own fasle belief and fanatic doctrines to work out their own evil karma. With high regards, Hiranyagarpa.

Dear Saraba Iyar, Why are you Wasting your time ? Fools and fenetics will never learn even if you showthem the truth directly. Fools cannot learn And fanatics doesnot want to learn. Your posting on the vetic gods is correct. I also heard of this in our own tradition, though I am not a vedic priest. I appreciate your post very much. It clarifies lots of issues. Your position is authentic. But remember You are dealing with a bunch of fenetics, not with an open minded sincere spiritual learners. These fanactics are cock sure of their position, they will not change They dont understand logic and dont consider evidence. (I have some experience before you). Even if Krishna comes and tells them the truth, they will ceal the mouth of Krishna or murder him and continue to preach vehimently their own doctrine. Dont waste your time and energy with these bunch of fanatics. Leave them with their own evil karma. With High regards, Hiranyagarpa.

Here is another Private instruction of Krishna to another Prophet Krishnamadhuramayi of ffice:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Bengal</st1:place>. Krishnamadhuramayi has been so spiritually advanced by Krishna bhakti, that she used to see <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in Praktiaksha. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> used to play with her all the time during her fag end of her life. One day <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> announced her physical death. She asked <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> for mukti after this present life. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> instructed her Lord Siva’s mantra and advised her to worship Lord Siva for the rest of her life. Madhuramayi was disappointed and asked why <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> himself is not gracing her with Moksha . <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> explained her that He is the preserver and cannot destroy Ego. He can goive her Goloka heven if she desires that but Not Moksha that requires the destruction of the ego. Siva alone can do that . Mohsha is Siva’s Department. Ultimately all souls will have to worship Siva for Moksha. For Swarga – heven – other gods will do but for moksha Lord Siva alone is the master. <o:p></o:p> She Instructed all her wVaishnava deciples to woership Siva at her fag end of her spiritual carrier and to those choose to continued to be Vishnavate advised not to engage in Siva Nindha, which her Vishnavite deciles were freely doing all along. She told them Categorically the <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> message : Those who Do Siva Ninda not only have no hope of Liberation, but they have no hope to gain even their favorite gods’ heavens. Siva Nindha is a grave Sin; And Vishnu certainly will not tolerate it. Even if a soul is devoted dearly to Vishnu and chants his mantra and serves him Trillion Kalpas, one single Sivaninda will destroy the entire merit and such a soul will sure to go to hell. <o:p></o:p> <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> seems to give contradictory instructions in his private conversations with his different Prophets. <o:p></o:p> Fool(s)! Awake. May be it is you who are going to Hell by believing such Sinful dogma of your chosen Prophet.

That is first rate Goudia Vaishnava's bluff. Brahma is the highest truth identical with the vedic Brahman. Brahma is the saguna form of Bhraman. From this first saguna Brahman named Brahma, all other saguna forms including Mahavishnu came. Brahma is the creater of all gods. He is the father of vishnu. Vaishnavas have reversed the order of creation. When Gaudia Vaishnavas could reverse of the status of Mahavishnu and Krishna who is a mere mortal avadar of Mahavishnu - if they could do this to their own god - why will they not do it to Brahma? Hiranyagarpa

Count me too in the fan club. Added to Sambya and Trivedi's ideas, I should bring to the notice that Sankara is not the Avadar of Siva as it is implied in the post no. 4 of Lahulyam . Even it is widely believed by many now it still cannot be true as Siva does not incornate in mortal womb. Siva has never taken birth in flesh and blood. Incarnating is Vishnu's earned curse ( he was cursed by a saint that he will be born again and again in all sorts of wombs , for doing some mischif) . Siva has no such destiny). Puranas are definitly corrept texts. Whoever included the material on 'Siva's Avadar in disguise of a brahmin teaching Mayavada" in Padmapurana, did not knew the fact of Siva's 'Non incarnation principle' and is a let out of the correption of the text, in addition to the reference of Buddism in Padmapurana. Hiranyagarpa

Mr. Justin, <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p> </o:p> Even I am ashamed of the mistake in the spelling in my name. It is not my doing. The municipality school I went in my primary education made that mistake. I could have corrected it of course. But it seems to be a big hassle. <o:p> </o:p> You still not getting the implication that I am talking about, even after the Kalidas story? You are truly a former Kalians. Let me be explicit then. I am referring to your argument on near death experience. You are cutting the very branch on which you are sitting. <o:p> </o:p> Still I am waiting for your scientific proof beyond doubt. <o:p> </o:p> I think you are not providing it right away, because there isn’t any. The material that you have referred too does not contain neither scientific proof not it is in any way beyond doubt. What you are referring to are quake science. You are not able to distinguish between quackery and science. <o:p> </o:p> Hiranyagarpa

Mr. Justin, I am a male. My name means Golden Womb and refers to the Creator Brahma. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p> </o:p> No need to get paranoid. I am not threatening you of any dangerous consequence from out side source. I am referring to the logical implication of your line of reasoning. If you are not athirst then you are confused. You remained me of a old mythical story of Kalidasa the poet. He was a utter fool before he became brainy, by the grace of goddess kali. The story goes like this. There was a princes who was very arrogant of her brain and insulted every one in the palace. They all were waiting for a chance to take their revenge. When it was time to get her married she put a condition that she will only marry some own who is a genius and who will win her in a debate with her. The minister and the group who were waiting for their chance to revenge her took this opportunity and conspired to find the most foolish person and trick her to get married to that moron. With this resolve they went on a search mission to find an utter fool. When they came to a remote village they found Kalidasa - a shepherded sitting on the end of a tree branch and cutting the bottom side of the branch. He was cutting the branch for the leaves for his goats oblivious of the fact that that way he will fall with the branch. The palace group picked him up as he was such a moron that he did not know the consequence of his own action. The story continues but I will stop. <o:p> </o:p> Your way of arguing using science to make the Near Death Experience, a case of madness has the same implication for your own religiosity. If you are not an atheist, then you should not be doing what you are doing. Obviously you must be so confused about logic that you don’t see the implication of your own argument. I was referring to this logical implication, not uttering any personal threat. <o:p> </o:p> Now coming to your links, I took the pain of going through them with the hope of finding the ‘established proof beyond doubt’, but all I could get there were opinion, not proof. Everything is doubtable. I could not find any proof beyond doubt. May be my brain is not good enough like yours to see and understand such proof present over there. Since you have grasped it can you please do a favor? Please succinctly and clearly state the proof. Don’t give me the links. Hope that is not too much of a trouble for you. I am eagerly waiting for the proof beyond doubt that you have. Hirayanyagarpa

That is putting the cart before the horse. If the Upanishads contain examples from Sankara Bhashya, it means that sankara has taken it from Upanishads, not the other way round. Hiranyagarpa