Pretender

Can you not again even now return your support to the children you once abandoned? Humbly with Affection, Jagabandhu dasa

In the early 80's, I began to regularly recite the Rudra-gita from the Fourth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam. By the late 80's I began to pray to Shiva in my own words composing a short prayer as follows: "O Rudra, Shiva, Shambu, Ashutosh ---- topmost of all the demigods and Vaishnavas; please be merciful upon us, forgiving our many offenses against you, kindly protect our humble abode from all unwanted or inauspicious intrusions of every description ---- while simultaneously protecting us from all those who wish us ill, whoever they and wherever we may be. But more importantly, please be merciful upon us and bless us that we will develop an ever-deeper internal understanding of the individual soul's eternal relationship with the Supreme Soul, Lord Vishnu, while simultaneously sharing our genuine insight in an unpretentious manner with all those souls who happen to surround us. This is all possible by Your Grace." In the early 90's, I came upon Srila Prabhupada's Beautiful commentary to Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Chapter 7, Text 157 wherein he clearly states that "...Vaishnavas can also worship all these demigods (Brahma, Shiva, Durga, Ganesh and Surya), but only on the principles of Brahma-samhita, which is recommended by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. We may note in this connection the mantras for worshiping Lord Shiva, Lord Brahma, goddess Durga, the sun-god and Ganesha, as described in the Brahma-samhita: srsti-sthiti-pralaya-sadhana-saktir eka chayeva yasya bhuvanani bibharti durga icchanurupam api yasya ca cestate sa govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami "The external potency, maya, who is the nature of the shadow of the cit potency, is worshiped by all people as Durga, the creating, preserving and destroying agency of this mundane world. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, in accordance with whose will Durga conducts herself." (Bs 5.44) ksiram yatha dadhi vikara-visesa-yogat sanjayate na hi tatah prthag asti hetoh yah sambhutam api tatha samupaiti karyad govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami "Milk is transformed into curd by the actions of acids, yet the effect 'curd' is neither the same nor different from its cause, viz., milk. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, of whom the state of Shambu is a similar transformation for the performance of the work of destruction." (Bs. 5.45) yat-pada-pallava-yugam vinidhaya kumbha- dvandve pranama-samaye sa ganadhirajah vighnan vihantum alam asya jagat-trayasya govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami "I worship the primeval Lord Govinda. Ganesha always holds His Lotus Feet upon the pair of tumuli protruding from his elephant head in order to obtain power for his function of destroying all obstacles on the path of progress in the three worlds." (Bs. 5.50) I already had a great fondness for Lord Shiva after reciting his words from Srimad-Bhagavatam (Fourth Canto, Chapter 24, Verses 33-79) about chanting the Holy Name and also praying to him with my own words for many years. When I read these words of Srila Prabhupada along with the accompanying slokas from Sri Brahma-samhita, I felt compelled to learn them (which I did). Not long after this, I was offered the opportunity to become the West Coast distributor of a successful and popular commercially packaged holy water from one of India's holiest rivers. Yet somehow, in spite of an obvious chance to increase my own lucrativity with this offer, my peace of conscience could not quite agree. I began to ponder that much the same as how the Lord's holy prasad cannot be "sold" (or "bought") without any and all proceeds going to the Lord Himself, similarly, how inappropriate it was for jivas to seek to profit off of the holy water of the sacred river which Lord Shambu helped bring to earth for the benefit of all souls(most of whom are too poor to have to "pay" for it). Because of these considerations, I had decided that I could not accept the position as a commercial holy water distributor. That night Lord Shiva came to me a dream. He wasn't very much like the rudrafied Vishnu depictions of Lord Shiva (of most popular artistic renditions). He was much more terrible to behold, with matted reddish-hued hair and a nearly coarse, ruddy (Rudrayi) countenance, not like Vishnu at all. But its the eyes that I remember most. Reddish, and fiery, blazing with an anger capable of incinerating all existence in a blink. And also powerfully magnetic, like some great irresistible vortex. Swell. Now this angry vision of universal destruction was unhappily focused on yours truly. Why? Because I had even briefly considered involvement in a commercial enterprise to distribute the holy water that falls upon his head. For the benefit of all souls. Regardless of apparent inability to "pay." I continued to chant the slokas from Sri Brahma-samhita and also pray to Lord Shiva. It occurred to me how much Lord Shiva must like to get Vishnu-prasada (and how because of popular misunderstanding probably doesn't get it as often as he would like to). I began to give the puspanjali-prasada from Sri Sri Guru-Gauranga to Lord Shiva, Goddess Durga and Lord Ganesha. I have continued to do so for many years. A year later, my youngest daughter (she was around 2 at the time) had what she calls the "green" dream which happened over two consecutive nights and greatly terrified her. The first night a cobra's head was creeping over the her second story bedroom windowsill (in Concord, CA). The following night the cobra actually crawled over the windowsill and into her room while simultaneously the head of a greenish, bluish-hued fierce person rose into view in her second story window pane. She woke us with her screams. She's still not quite sure if it was just a dream. A couple of years ago, I dreamt that a gigantic cobra was blocking me from driving out the dirt road from my house in the woods north of La Crosse (FL). In the woods to the left of the road, towering through the treetops a huge (30 feet tall sitting down) Shiva was seated in meditation by the creek. In the summer of 2006, I dreamt that Lord Shiva came bursting out of the roof of my house into the yard. At first, as he exploded out of the roof, he was ashen-colored, grayish-blue, but when he landed on the ground he changed to a more normal darkish complexioned Indian aboriginal/yogi form, with long matted hair. This time he had a mischievous gleam in his reddish eyes and a barely restrained smirk on his lips, like he had just played a great prank by jumping out of my roof as if to say, "BOO!" But I felt wonderment instead of fear and this also seemed to please him as I said his name in amazed disbelief, "Shiva? SHIVA?" He continued to smile. From the scriptures we can know that Lord Shiva is the Lord of all devastation (and my own life has plenty of that). Have we considered how devastation is another of those modern words with its roots in Sanskrit (and Latin)? "Deva" meaning well, you know; and "station" being a variation of "status" or position. In other words, when the positions of the devas (who are devotees of the Supreme Lord Govinda) are not given proper regard, cataclysmic occurrences referred to as devastation can become more likely. And "natural" disasters aren't disastrous for Nature. Of course, unique and extenuating circumstances can also cause personal devastation. And I must think that such merciful expressions of the Divine Will are my real inner necessity, perfectly engineered for my benefit. With the help of my "friend", Shiva. When devastation occurs, I can know that Lord Shiva is near. And such consideration in the midst of the great pressure of severe personal circumstances brings great comfort. Or, to use the vernacular of Srila Saraswati Thakur, that every wave is favorable and that whatever God (and his servants the devas) does is for my good.

And yet hearing IS one of the nine processes of devotional service recommended in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Just by hearing (or any of the other eight processes) one can achieve full devotional perfection. I also prefer to listen to the Divine, when I am permitted. In some ways hearing can be of even more importance which may be why God gave me two ears and only one tongue. If I have the ears to listen, the Divine is always speaking in every way on every day thereby causing the entire creation to manifest as one big Temple of Understanding for my benefit and the benefit of all others. Apologies in advance, the preceding statements are not meant to minimize the paramount influence given by Mahaprabhu on worshiping the Holy Name. Please consider that the scriptures and saints like Srila Prabhupada have placed emphasis on hearing correctly first or I will not know how and what to chant. Hearing itself forever remains an intrinsic aspect of the process dilineated by the Acharyas when chanting (worshiping) the Holy Name. If I am a good listener, it will be of much help to me and all others. The initial question might also have been phrased " Hear/Listen and then what?"

For me personally, my chanting is to just emphatically call out to Lord Hari as in "Hari! Hari!" over and over again. I have some feeling for acapella kirtan(ala Ladysmith Black Mambazo), especially namo maha-vadanyaya..., trnad api sunichena..., matra sparasa tu kaunteya..., udilo aruna/jiv jago...when I am permitted by Divine Grace. As Mahaprabhu has told all his real followers for all time in regards to the Holy Name "...there are no hard and fast rules." Especially if rules discourage. Please don't confuse my statement as an excuse to avoid the regulative principles of vaidhi-bhakti which is not my intent. Instead of adjusting the standard set down by the Gurus to suit my own inabilty to follow strictly, I do not consider myself a Vaishnav proper per se. In this way I try and harmonize hoping for forgiveness at what I view as my own failing to live up to the highest standard. Rather I am a fallen soul with an extremely severe existence as Beggar Prabhu well knows. And following many specific rules and regulations do not fit my own personal circumstances. For instance because I take coffee in the morning I've already broken a regulative principle every day first thing. But I am a strict vegetarian and always have been since first trying to join the temple in the 70's. I try and focus more on the principles of always trying to give honor to others and be respectful to them which is often challenge enough and I often fall very short of Mahaprabhu's standard in this regard. For this I am truly sorry.

Dear Suchandra Prabhu, Wow! That was wonderful and timely! Personally, I'm not very concerned about origins, but rather awakenment here and now. Luminosity is what the world needs and not animosity. Also, I have no desire whatsoever to "Go" Back to Godhead. Rather, if Sri Sri Guru-Gauranga permit I would prefer to come back here life after life to assist Them help the suffering souls, if need be "forever." Also, when I'm allowed to chant the Holy Name I wish for absolutely nothing in return but to be allowed to continue to worship the Vaishnavas and Sri Hari Nam Prabhu, Who are my real Deities.

Bija Prabhu, What you say is true words often fail in conveying an experienced idea to an unsympathetic audience. And the philosophy of karma and so-called transcendental detachment has been misused to intellectually validate people turning away from the suffering of others. I hear you fine Prabhu, you express yourself well in conveying your own sincere feeling based upon your own unique experience. What more can anyone do but sincerely express their real heart in a genuine way? Compassion can be simply defined when the real concern about the suffering of others eclipses my own selfish concerns thereby causing the false ego to literally evaporate. Like fog in the Sun. And our daughter who we named Gita is very attached to hearing Srimad Bhagavad-gita and the sacred sound vibration created by the Supreme Personality of Sri Hari Nam Prabhu. She is the devotee and I am merely her flawed servant. I can only hope my flawed service is not too much of a disappointment to her Graciousness. Yogesh Prabhu. Thank you so much for your kind encouragement! Your previous post made my wife cry at your sweetness. Beggar Prabhu, Please!!!! Your points are well made but you carry a grudge too far. From past experience you confine him and leave no room for change as if you've built an entire universe from a single instance. Leave Cbrahma Prabhu alone. His comments in this thread are much more relevant than your own. Or shall we abuse philosophy like a club to beat others into submission about our viewpoint? With great affection, Your old friend...

She has skillfully taught me things about unconditional affection which I could have never learned from just a book.

I've also had to ask myself why? First why me God? That was before I had to throw self-pity completely away as the most useless of human emotions. Then it becomes why not me? Karma is the answer of course. For instance, my daughter has no speech and likely never will. I cannot perceive with accuracy the specific cause of her reaction, but have considered the possibility that's she's so impaired because she misused her speaking ability in a previous human birth, possibly the immediate past life. Regardless of her condition or it's cause, we love her dearly and could not hardly bare not being allowed to serve her as parents. Whatever God does is for my good.

Enjoyment by me with these senses is at best a futile attempt at real satisfaction for the soul. Enjoyment is not for me in this ephemeral plane but for Lord Krishna. Apologies in advance if I am off-thread once again. Can't seem to do anything right. Some days I'm afraid to pass wind in fear of soiling my trousers.

Yet for my own sake I must consider that my own circumstances are no one's fault but my own due to my own misdoing, with no blame to the environment or anyone else.

Please consider that Christ was not himself a Christian per se, just as Lord Buddha was not a Buddhist.

Dear eshwaar101, Why do you ask? I'm the parent of a severely autistic/retarded 16 year old daughter who's 24/7 caregiving consumes our life. It has transformed our lives in a very severe but special way relying on the verse from the Bhagavat tat te nukumpam. That is, when difficulty comes my way I must learn to harmonize it as not only not a difficulty but a boon sent by the Divine Will as my real inner necessity in order to help me make inner progress in a genuine way. Following this line we have learned much about surrender and the utter futility of material existence. Our understanding was superficial before this experience. Mere intellectual philosophical theory breaks down as we are forced to exist at a much deeper level of functional awareness. For her expert lessons we are most grateful to our daughter, our teacher sent to us by God's Grace.

What about the empty temples in America? How is this to be addressed? For Srila Prabhupada's pleasure.

Maybe someone can start a new thread where we can continue this very pertinent discussion without disturbing anyone's mind. Please.

Actually in the non-cyber world Beggar is one of my oldest and dearest friends. We've stayed at each other's homes many times and we speak often on the phone. In fact we just spoke together. Hardly anyone in the world now knows me better, except for Srila Govinda Maharaj. About the 19th century sahajiya reference, I alluded to it only because of how less than qualified people took advantage of high teachings and thereby created a "stain" or disturbance in the estimation of my Divine Masters Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur and Srila Saraswati Thakur. And I must always honor their considerations. Really I don't use a holier than thou chopping technique with anyone ever. My Master Srila Govinda Maharaj has discouraged this "preaching like a hammer" in our contemporary times because souls are already so discouraged, it might only discourage them further, whereas nowadays it's better to seek the spark of goodness within others and help to bring it out with encouragement and affection. Yet I am very much influenced by the writings of Srila Bhaktivinode and Srila Saraswati Thakur (as may be evidenced by my various expressions on the Sun, which really are my genuine stream of consciousness). Also, my phrasing is for their pleasure as well as the dignity of their teachings in perpetuity. I am but the poorest student in their classroom. From my Teachers I have learned what is sahajiya. It means to take something very high in a exceedingly cheap way, i.e., to be an imitationist or pretender. Much trouble(and disturbance to society) comes from pretensions in a spiritual context. For the real health of my real inner life I must consider myself the worst sahajiya or pretender. Therefore I am always praying for their forgiveness as their most obstinate, recalcitrant pupil. Someday or other I hope to really please them. Otherwise, my spiritual life has no roots like a rotted tree. And I won't really be able to help anyone in a real way. Ever. That is, I am completely dependant on Their Divine Grace. In some ways the sahajiya problem has morphed into the modern world in an insidious way causing a great many people to believe that they don't have to follow any regulative principles,etc. and can perform any kind of atrocious nonsense because in their own deluded estimation they are such big lovers of God/devotees of Krishna. Thus we have aberrations like siddha-pranali initiation and the gopi -bhava club. But it can also manifest in a more individual way as is the case with any spiritual self-deception. Because of this, I do not consider myself a devotee and yet have ultimate hope that through the good influence of the real Vaishnavas this fallen rascal might eventually be rectified and redeemed. At the same time, the Teachings of the Sri Rupa Guru-varga are like a Deity to me which I always try my best to honor above all else. Unfortunately, as with much else within my life, I often fall short of this for which again I must pray for forgiveness. And I'm very concerned about the stain you mention. The way of positive scrubbing you mention is no doubt the way to clean the stains away. A positive alternative really is the best criticism, just as it's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness. If we all lit candles simultaneously there would be an immediate positive impact of considerably less darkness in these extremely troubled times. Much to the benefit of all suffering jivas.

Beggar Prabhu, Please. This an earnest discussion amongst souls who really care about the tarnished reputation of Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan Mission and are also concerned about the suffering of others? What's that? What other people? What happened is the weather channel off the air? Nowhere to do the pick this afternoon? Can't afford a hot tub today? Why don't you just take a nice nap and dream of Florida?

Kulapavana Prabhu, The quote I gave you is a personal percololation of Srila Prabhupada's translation of the Gita verse which he translates as "One who does good, cannot be overcome by evil." & Srila Sridhar Maharaj's translation of the same verse :"One who is sincere cannot be deceived." Thesis. Anti-thesis. Synthesis. "...cannot be overcome for evil..." might be more specifically phrased in a more ultimate sense for the sake of our discussion as "... cannot be permanently overcome by evil..." or "...won't be permanently deceived by evil." I try and view things in light of eternity. To me "evil" is another word that is fraught with considerations of Judeo-Christian pre-conditioning. It's another case of subjective semantical perception so what you say is also true and that even sincere people might be momentarily(in light of eternity) overcome by bad influence, illusion and misunderstanding. Please know I also wish to roll up my sleeves and start scrubbing the stain away. But inspite of the many heinous religious atrocites commited throughout history I don't personally believe in "evil" per se and strongly feel that even the "Devil" himself might be influenced to change his "evil" ways through the Affectionate Implementation of Real Krishna Consciousness. The worst actions are preceded by the worst understanding. Sorrowfully, there's no doubt about the stain which you speak of and many may not know that because of the sahajiya influence prominent in the time of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, Sri Gaudiya Vaishnavism was held in such ill repute that the common people in the street would spit in disgust when they saw so-called Vaishnavas(sahajiyas) begging. We can read Srila Bhaktivinode's own words in this regard from his Beautiful Bhagavat speech wherein he himself states he was personally dismissive of the so-called Vaishnavism being officially represented to the masses and so was himself more drawn to Western thinkers and Christianity. Sadly, history seems to repeat, especially when we are unable to learn from it's mistakes. I'll be happy if the Vaishnavas would see fit to use me as a scouring pad to remove/scrub away the current stains wrought by "evil" acts and I even think it would be great to be allowed to preach real Krishna Consciousness to those souls suffering in the "sewers of hell." Also, I can scarcely believe the many disgraces and dishonors that have impugned Mahaprabhu's Mission of Mercy. Again. Never mind which camp. Whomever is in charge of the scrubbing crew can please give me the dirtiest job and this will satisfy me greatly. Yours Affectionately, Jagabandhu dasa

Why don't we just debate/argue/quarrel how many angels can fit on the end of a pin and be done with it? Those who are sincere won't be deceived by evil. Beggar my dear friend, it's all a question of mood and mind or it's not what you say but how you say it. Even if I have the right idea, I can push people away by exuding the wrong mood. Or as Srila Prabhupada tells all souls for all time from preface/intro to Sri Upadeshamrta :"Advancement in Krishna Consciousness is dependant upon the attitude of the follower." As you well know, Srila Sridhar Maharaj is also my Master. To this day to think of how he was so rudely treated causes me to weep in great sorrow.

Well said. And unfortunately sadly all too true. Never mind which camp. Because of this, Real Krishna Consciousness doesn't really get out to the suffering masses which is Sri Sri Guru-Gauranga's Real Intent and Purpose. Instead of luminosity there's mostly animosity created by officious religiousity. Personally, I'm just vegetarian white trash. Most souls I encounter never know what "faith" I to and are therefore not threatened by my immediate environmentally pertinent philosophical response to any given circumstance. I haven't worn the external adornments of Sri Gaudiya Vaishnavism for many decades(although I don't discourage others from doing so).Yet the Vaishnavas are like my Deities along with Sri Hari Nam Prabhu and I still have vivid dreams of Srila Prabhupada all the time. Srila Prabhupada tells us that preaching must be based upon real compassion for the suffering of others. To me this is more reaching(as in reaching out to to others) than preaching.

Great answer Kulapavana Prabhu! Apologies in advance for my previous crass attempt at levity. Most of the souls I deal with in the hinterlands of Florida crackerdom are proponents of their own perceptions of Christianity which I do not discourage. And I try to be friendly and affectionate with them regardless. I try and seek out the fundamental number one lowest common denominator in each individual case and deal with them from there. I am able to have amicable discussions of the Divine with them without them ever knowing that I am non-Christian. When Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door I am impressed by their dedication, courage and enthusiasm. I offer them a glass of water and briefly discuss spirituality with them in a provocative yet affectionate friendly way and circuitous manner which eventually causes them to need to go on without direct ideological confrontation and causes them to walk off scratching their heads in a manner of speaking. I'm the same way with all people of all diverse faiths. There are two stories that come to mind from the Beautiful and Pragmatic personal teachings of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Once one of his followers told him how he was getting Muslims to chant Krishna instead of Allah. He was soundly reprimanded by His Divine Grace, "Why are you making my movement into a sectarian thing?!!!" And also he once cautioned his followers about preaching to Christians to give up their faith and take to Krishna Consciousness instead, that if they don't actually take to Krishna Consciousness there is some danger that they will be left with no faith at all. Like a riven cloud, with no position in any sphere. My personal approach is based upon respect for others and tolerance wherein I am reaching and not preaching. Therefore I don't ever get into so-called religious arguments and I'm not the least intimidated if people don't believe as I do when I attempt to reach out to suffering souls as a kindly friend to all. And I never discourage anyone from their unique subjective faith in the sublime Divine. What to speak of tit for tat comparisons. After all are we not souls? And a soul by any other name remains a soul.

And yet. Regardless of individually preferred subjective belief system, the economic house of cards does seem to be about to completely collapse in a very bad way. Can anyone ignore the signs? Many apparently prosperous people will experience immediate povery possibly worse than the previous Great Depression experienced by our forefathers who were made of stronger stuff including basic decency and strong character, i.e. "spine" or "sand," whereas the past sixty odd years of apparent material bounty have produced generations of soft, spineless people of poor intrinsic decency and character extremely ill-equiped to deal with severe hardship. Personally, I don't live my life as an alarmist, but it is very ossible that things are about to get very bad for an unbelievable amount of people who have never had to suffer hardly any real hardship. People in general nowadays hardly know how to prepare their own food, what to speak of growing it. This summer I think I'll be putting in a vegetable garden. At least. Ugly ugra-karma currency might not be worth the paper it's printed on and so of little real value to purchase life's basic needs. If it really does collapse, it will be worse for the city-dwellers. Much worse.

If you "save" me, can you spend me? Maybe Jesus saves, but Moses invests. I like what what the non-"Hindu" Sir George Bernard Shaw said:"The last Christian died two thousand years ago." Or how about Woody Allen: "If Christ could see what people were doing in his name, he'd never stop throwing up!" Also, Christ wasn't a Christian, just as Buddha wasn't a Buddhist. "Hinduism?" I thought we were supposed to pursue the teachings of Jaiva-dharma, the eternal religion of all souls forever.

A real Vaisnava does not even look down upon an ant, what to speak of those embodied as humans with whom they might have philosophical disagreements. True Divine inspiration cannot be checked by considerations of time and space. As we know from Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, Vaishnavas like Srila Prabhupada are forever manifest in the sound vibration containing the gist of their ideas and are not limited by apparent physical constraints in coming to assist sincere seekers in their contemporary search for true understanding. It all depends upon the intensity of the eagerness of sincere inquiry and also their subsequent actual inner receptivity. You are a jiva with a built in permanent connection to Supersoul of Whom Srila Prabhupada is directly representative. Why don't you ask Srila Prabhupada yourself? Humbly, Jagabandhu dasa

Wow. Words fail. Does anyone know where Sripada Ameyatma Prabhu is now or have his e-mail? I know that he was here in Florida for years. Such intelligence and determination! And tolerance! May Guru-Gauranga bless him more and more!

Great answer theist! I feel the same way. Also, I don't have questions really but must simply apply to my own life what I have been so expertly taught. Eventually, even questions unasked will be answered by the Lord of the Heart. I only need to learn how to really hear. And really listen.