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LoveroftheBhagavata

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  1. The Vedas, Upanishads, Puranas and other categories of scriptures definitely do not pertain to the same epoch of history, and were not addressed to the same persons and time periods. For this reason, their particular contents are widely at variance, and the Vaishnava tendency to syncretise it all into one artificially cohesive whole is wrong, it is as simple as that. Again, much scholastic work exists to support this view. Nevertheless, having seen the bellicose belligerence with which you defend your touchingly pious beliefs, I am confident that you shall dismiss the opinions of the academicians and stick to your believer's myths. Suit yourself, my friend.
  2. For the record, it has been copiously documented that Sanatana Dharma doesn't feature in ANY Sanskrit text as a moniker or appellation, but is indeed a 19th century phrase that was coined by some jingoistic Indians during the Raj, so as to describe the family of faiths that modern Hinduism is. I personally therefore abstain from utilising it, knowing full well that is not what the Vedas say about the tradition that they embody.
  3. The Vedas, Upanishads, Puranas and other categories of scriptures definitely do not pertain to the same epoch of history, and were not addressed to the same persons and time periods. For this reason, their particular contents are widely at variance, and the Vaishnava tendency to syncretise it all into one artificially cohesive whole is wrong, it is as simple as that. Again, much scholastic work exists to support this view. Nevertheless, having seen the bellicose belligerence with which you defend your touchingly pious beliefs, I am confident that you shall dismiss the opinions of the academicians and stick to your believer's myths. Suit yourself, my friend.
  4. The Narayana Upanishad, like most Vaishnava-oriented Upanishads, is a relatively recent creation, and was developed with very evident sectarian concerns in mind. Just grab any academic work on the matter, and this should be plain to you. The Gopala-tapani, for instance, is a mere 700 years old, approximately. Kimfelix is right, Vaishnavism is akin to Christianity and even Islam in many respects, and a fair amount of scholarly work has been conducted on that. You may want to check what the experts have to say on all this.
  5. Then you may care to enlighten us a little about Ugrasena's 30 TRILLION bodyguards. Where did they live, and what about their wives, children and relatives? Did they moonlight as road-sweepers? Perhaps they all existed in a parallel reality, unseen by the peoples of this world? You seem to not be capable of differentiating between Hindu mythology and real spiritual essence. I differ with Theist on many counts, but his standpoint is far more rational and reasonable than your childish insistence on the historicity of what amounts to nothing more than poetic licence and in some instances pre-scientific hyperbole. Religion has a purpose to serve, and that purpose does not equate with what contemporary scholarship purports to offer; in fact, only those who have relinquished the power of reason can have the cheek to place the imaginatively rich fables of old on a par with modern science.
  6. You're absolutely right. However, we persons of Indian descent have a duty to rectify erroneous, Eurocentric interpretations of our ancient history and set the record straight, for the edification of the whole world, including our own selves.
  7. This is also in large part how I view it, and my point is simple: acharyas and panditas are people who have authority and ability for imparting religious knowledge, not for proposing models of the material world than can pretend to rival the well-thought-out, well-researched and extremely sound predominant scientific theories. Of course, scientists are not infallible, but their method is the very best that what we have, at present at least, for comprehending the cosmos and the phenomenon that we call 'life'.
  8. Absolutely. And I would add that the Krsna-samhita also cautions its readers against a literal acceptance of the more mythological and speculative content of the Bhagavata Purana. For instance, Bhaktivinode Thakur writes about the dashavataras in a Darwinian evolutionary context, and he also states that the hells mentioned in the shastra are only meant for meditational purposes, but do not factually relate to actual realms of existence. And the Thakur also separates the Puranic contents into material that cannot be altered by human experimentation (he is clearly thinking of the metaphysical parts here), and relativises the authority and importance of knowledge claims that can vary according to time, place and circumstance, or as our understanding of such things increases and develops. The layout of the material universe definitely falls in the second category.
  9. The Bhagavatam as it exists in the current recension that we know most certainly is not the urtext of the work of Vyasa. As Sadaputa and other scholars irrefutably argue, there have been many evident revisions and modifications of this and other Puranas in the past couple of millenia. For this reason, it is next to impossible to determine which particular verses that appertain to the topic of astronomy are genuine and which are later interpolations. That many are still willing to abandon any semblance of rationality and lose themselves in the mythic symbolism of the fifth canto is a matter of startling mystery to me. And I can only agree with what Theist said, namely that one does not require Bhagavata cosmology in order to extract the spiritual content of the book.
  10. Unless you never managed to graduate through high school, which seems to be the case from your lack of ability to comprehend basic English, I am at a loss to explain how you misconstrued my post. Ganguli's translation of the Mahabharata, which runs 5000 pages, is widely regarded as the most faithful rendering of the text, and his edition, as well as those of other translators, clearly describe Krishna's cremation. However, I should know better than trying to get a Madhvaite to see sense where there is. And with this, I'm off arguing about such a non-issue. If you feel like responding afresh, sorry, address your post to somebody else. I'm not returning to read anything further on this thread - have far better to do than fritter my time in such an unproductive manner!
  11. Nice try, son. I love these exchanges with you, for your hilarious responses succeed in making me chuckle even when I'm otherwise in a sullen mood. Just grab Ganguli's masterful rendering of the Mahabharata and consult the relevant passages. Everything should become clearly manifest.
  12. Krishna's body did not evaporate in thin air. He was definitely cremated, and shastra says so. Just do your homework properly, tackleboy.
  13. Sadaputa in my opinion did a terrific job in his two publications 'Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy' and 'Mysteries of the Sacred Universe', blending the devotional and intellectual approaches to formulate a highly rational and compelling thesis, which does not violate the sanctity of the Puranas whilst dressing the cosmological concepts therein in some kind of logical and scientific accoutrement. Michael Cremo has done the same thing in no small measure in his attempts to deconstruct neo-Darwinism, even though one would need to be astonishingly idealistic and naive to seriously contend that any lasting, substantive outcome could potentially result from this. Still, these two devotee-scholars have to their credit the merit to have worked towards a solution and contributed in a concrete way to the perennial discourse between science and religion. Most unfortunately, what occurred in more recent years? We have loudmouths such as Danavir who butted in and excoriated especially Sadaputa for his "audacity" in interpreting the verses of the fifth canto. And the main body of ISKCON members seem to have followed suit without any thoughtful contemplation on the theme, as far as I can see, and taken to the literalist position of Danavir, leaving the far more mystically and academically convincing studies of the Bhaktivedanta Institute more or less marginalised. How pathetic can people get?
  14. Haribol Indulekhaji, Thank you. I'll wait for your feedback. Pranam
  15. We are discussing methods in which to destroy corpses here, and I was only making reference to a well-known story from scripture. Where was I wrong, can you tell me?
  16. You're right on, Kulapavana Prabhu. I replied to Amlesh and Vigraha but my post was deleted, as I thought it might be. However, I had the good sense to also message them privately with it, that way they do know where I stand on this issue. The whole matter is exceedingly humorous, I fully concur.
  17. Not to mention that the body of none other than Krishna Himself was disposed of in the traditional Indian manner, with Rukmini Devi ascending the funeral pyre as the Lord's sati.
  18. Could you please let me know if the write-up you referred to is available online, and if so, do you know of any link to it that works?
  19. That's amazing indeed, spend billions erecting edifices that have as underlying motivating rationale nothing else than mythology and fantasy, and that in effect amount to no more than ostentatious showing-off; let the hapless indigent living around the compound to their own fates, as deprived of proper nutrition, clean water, adequate education and other basic human necessities as they are. Talk about wanting to uplift society. True spirituality is ineluctably intertwined with humility and simplicity, not fancy Disney theme park-like wonderlands. Then again, to each his own, and the likes of Jayapataka and a couple of others have sufficiently demonstrated the overwhelming amount of meanness and bad qualities that they embody by almost literally attempting to march over the heads of the Mayapura-dhama-vasis to have the access to the ISKCON property widened. Luckily, these monsters eventually had to contend with failure in that pursuit, which explains why the original architectural plan for the Planetarium has required drastic reworking, leading to the current proposed model being of considerably more modest dimensions than the previous one.
  20. That's a model of an irrational statement from somebody who doesn't really know what he's talking about.
  21. I shall post some articles regarding this topic when I can get down to that. It does have a relevant bearing on our understanding of ancient history, and is as such a ponderous subject matter.
  22. FIRST PART BOOK I CHAPTER I Om. Glory to the Samaveda! To Lord Ganesa glory! Om. DECADE I Agni 1. Come, Agni, praised with song, to feast and sacrificial offering: sit As Hotar on the holy grass! 2. O Agni, thou hast been ordained Hotar of every sacrifice, By Gods, among the race of men. 3. Agni we choose as envoy, skilled performer of this holy rite, Hotar, possessor of all wealth. 4. Served with oblation, kindled, bright, through love of song may Agni, bent On riches, smite the Vritras dead! 5. I laud your most beloved guest like a dear friend, O Agni, him Who, like a chariot, wins us wealth. 6. Do thou, O Agni, with great might guard us from all malignity, Yea, from the hate of mortal man! 7. O Agni, come; far other songs of praise will I sing forth to thee. Wax mighty with these Soma-drops! 8. May Vatsa draw thy mind away even from thy loftiest dwelling place! Agni, I yearn for thee with song. 9. Agni, Atharvan brought thee forth by rubbing from the sky, the head Of all who offer sacrifice. 10. O Agni, bring us radiant light to be our mighty succour, for Thou art our visible deity! DECADE II Agni 1. O Agni, God, the people sing reverent praise to thee for strength: With terrors trouble thou the foe 2. I seek with song your messenger, oblation-bearer, lord of wealth, Immortal, best at sacrifice. 3. Still turning to their aim in thee the sacrificer's sister hymns Have come to thee before the wind. 4. To thee, illuminer of night, O Agni, day by day with prayer, Bringing thee reverence, we come. 5. Help, thou who knowest lauds, this work, a lovely hymn in Rudra's praise, Adorable in every house! 6. To this fair sacrifice to drink the milky draught art thou called forth: O Agni, with the Maruts come! 7. With homage will I reverence thee, Agni, like a long-tailed steed, Imperial lord of holy rites. 8. As Aurva and as Bhrigu called, as Apnavana called, I call The radiant Agni robed with sea. 9. When he enkindles Agni, man should with his heart attend the song: I kindle Agni till he glows. 10. Then, verily, they see the light refulgent of primeval seed, Kindled on yonder side of heaven. DECADE III Agni 1. Hither, for powerful kinship, I call Agni, him who prospers you, Most frequent at our solemn rites. 2. May Agni with his pointed blaze cast down each fierce devouring fiend: May Agni win us wealth by war! 3. Agni, be gracious; thou art great: thou hast approached the pious man, Hast come to sit on sacred grass. 4. Agni, preserve us,from distress consume our enemies, O God, Eternal, with thy hottest flames 5. Harness, O Agni, O thou God, thy steeds which are most excellent! The fleet ones bring thee rapidly. 6. Lord of the tribes, whom all must seek, we worshipped Agni set thee down, Refulgent, rich in valiant men. 7. Agni is head and height of heaven, the master of the earth is he He quickeneth the waters' seed. 8. O Agni, graciously announce this our good fortune of the Gods, And this our newest hymn of praise! 9, By song, O Agni, Angiras! Gopavana hath brought thee forth Hear thou my call, refulgent one! 10. Agni, the Sage, the Lord of Strength, hath moved around the sacred gifts, Giving the offerer precious things. 11. His heralds bear him up aloft, the God who knoweth all that lives, The Sun, that all may look on him. 12, Praise Agni in the sacrifice, the Sage whose holy laws are true The God who driveth grief away. 13. Kind be the Goddesses to lend us help, and kind that we may drink: May their streams bring us health and wealth 14. Lord of the brave, whose songs dost thou in thine abundance now inspire, Thou whose hymns help to win the kine? DECADE IV Agni 1. Sing to your Agni with each song, at every sacrifice for strength. Come, let us praise the wise and, everlasting God even as a well-beloved friend, 2. Agni, protect thou us by one, protect us by the second song, Protect us by three hymns, O Lord of power and might, bright God, by four hymns guard us well! 3. O Agni, with thy lofty beams, with thy pure brilliancy, O God, Kindled, most youthful one! by Bharadvaja's hand, shine on us richly, holy Lord! 4. O Agni who art worshipped well, dear let our princes be to thee, Our wealthy patrons who are governors of men, who part, as gifts, the stall of kine! 5. Agni, praise-singer! Lord of men, God! burning up the Rakshasas, Mighty art thou, the ever-present, household-lord! home-friend and guardian from the sky. 6. Immortal Jatavedas, thou bright-hued refulgent gift of Dawn, Agni, this day to him who pays oblations bring the Gods who waken with the morn! 7. Wonderful, with thy favouring help, send us thy bounties, gracious Lord. Thou art the charioteer, Agni, of earthly wealth: find rest and safety for our seed! 8. Famed art thou, Agni, far and wide, preserver, righteous, and a Sage. The holy singers, O enkindled radiant one, ordainers, call on thee to come. 9. O holy Agni, give us wealth famed among men and strengthening life! Bestow on us, O helper, that which many crave, more glorious still through righteousness! 10. To him, who dealeth out all wealth, the sweet-toned Hotar-priest of men, To him like the first vessels filled with savoury juice, to Agni let the lauds go forth. DECADE V Agni 1. With this mine homage I invoke Agni for you, the Son of Strength, Dear, wisest envoy, skilled in noble sacrifice, immortal messenger of all. 2. Thou liest in the logs that are thy mothers: mortals kindle thee. Alert thou bearest off the sacrifleer's gift, and then thou shinest to the Gods. 3. He hath appeared, best prosperer, in whom men lay their holy acts: So may our songs of praise come nigh to Agni who was born to give the Arya strength! 4. Chief Priest is Agni at the laud, as stones and grass at sacrifice. Gods! Maruts! Brahmanaspati! I crave with song the help that is most excellent. 5. Pray Agni of the piercing flame, with sacred songs, to be our help; For wealth, famed Agni, Purumilha and ye men! He is Suditi's sure defence. 6. Hear, Agni who hast ears to hear, with all thy train of escort Gods! With those who come at dawn let Mitra, Aryaman sit on the grass at sacrifice. 7. Agni of Divodasa, God, comes forth like Indra in his might. Rapidly hath he moved along his mother earth: he stands in high heaven's dwelling-place. 8. Whether thou come from earth or from the lofty lucid realm of heaven, Wax stronger in thy body through my song of praise: fill full all creatures, O most wise! 9. If, loving well the forests, thou wentest to thy maternal floods, Not to be scorned, Agni, is that return of thine when, from afar, thou now art here. 10. O Agni, Manu stablished thee a light for all the race of men: With Kanva hast thou blazed, Law-born and waxen strong, thou whom the people reverence. CHAPTER II DECADE I Agni 1. The God who giveth wealth accept your full libation poured to, him! Pour ye it out, then fill the vessel full again, for so the God regardeth you. 2. Let Brahmanaspati come forth, let Sunrita the Goddess come, And Gods bring to our rite which yields a fivefold gift the hero, lover of mankind! 3. Stand up erect to lend us aid, stand up like Savitar the God, Erect as strength-bestower when we call on thee with priests who balm our offerings! 4. The man who bringeth gifts to thee, bright God who fain wouldst lead to wealth, Winneth himself a brave son, Agni! skilled in lauds, one prospering in a thousand ways. 5. With hymns and holy eulogies we supplicate your Agni, Lord Of many families who duly serve the Gods, yea, him whom others too inflame. 6. This Agni is the Lord of great prosperity and hero, strength, Of wealth with noble offspring and with store of kine, the Lord of battles with the foe. 7. Thou, Agni, art the homestead's Lord, our Hotar-priest at sacrifice. Lord of all boons, thou art the Potar, passing wise. Pay worship, and enjoy the good! 8. We as thy friends have chosen thee, mortals a God, to be our help. The Waters' Child, the blessed, the most mighty one, swift conqueror, and without a peer. DECADE II Agni 1. Present oblations, make him splendid: set ye as Hotar in his place the Home's Lord, worshipped With gifts and homage where they pour libations! Honour him meet for reverence in our houses. 2. Verily wondrous is the tender youngling's growth who never draweth nigh to drink his mother's milk. As soon as she who hath no udder bore him, he, faring on his. great errand, suddenly grew strong. 3. Here is one light for thee, another yonder: enter the third and, be therewith united. Beautiful be thy union with the body, beloved in the Gods' sublimest birthplace! 4. For Jatavedas, worthy of our praise, will we frame with our mind this eulogy as 'twere a car; For good, in his assembly, is this care of ours. Let us not, in thy friendship, Agni, suffer harm! 5. Agni Vaisvanara, born in course of Order, the messenger of earth, the head of heaven, The Sage, the sovran, guest of men, our vessel fit for their mouth, the Gods have generated. 6. Even as the waters from the mountain ridges, so sprang the; Gods, through lauds, from thee, O Agni. To thee speed hymns and eulogies, as horses haste, bearing him who loves the song, to battle. 7. Win to protect you, Rudra, lord of worship, priest of both worlds, effectual sacrificer, Agni, invested with his golden colours, before the thunder strike and lay you senseless! 8. The King whose face is decked with oil is kindled with homage offered by his faithful servant. The men, the priests adore him with oblations. Agni hath shone forth at the flush of morning. 9. Agni advanceth with his lofty banner: through earth and heaven the Bull hath loudly bellowed He hath come nigh from the sky's farthest limit: the Steer hath waxen in the waters' bosom. 10. From the two fire-sticks have the men engendered with thoughts, urged by the hand, the glorious Agni, Far-seen, with pointed flame, Lord of the Homestead. DECADE III Agni 1. Agni is wakened by the people's fuel to meet the Dawn who cometh like a milch-cow. Like young trees shooting up on high their branches, his flames. are mounting to the vault of heaven. 2. Set forth the gleaming one, the song-inspirer, not foolish with. the foolish, fort-destroyer, Who leadeth with his hymns to thought of conquest, gold-bearded, richly splendid with his armour 3. Thou art like heaven: one form is bright, one holy, like Day and Night dissimilar in colour. All magic powers thou aidest, self-dependent! Auspicious bethy bounty here, O Pushan! 4. As holy food, Agni, to thine invoker give wealth in cattle, lasting, rich in marvels! To us be born a son and spreading offspring. Agni, be this thy gracious will to us-ward! 5. Stablished to fill the juice with vital vigour, giver of wealth, guard of his servant's body, The great Priest, born, who knows the clouds, abider with men, is seated in the waters' eddy. 6. Let the song, honouring the best, with longing honour the Asura's most famous sovran, The deeds of him the mighty, deeds like Indra's, the manly one in whom the folk must triumph! 7. In the two kindling-blocks lies Jatavedas like the well-cherished germ in pregnant women,-- Agni who day by day must be entreated by men who watch provided with oblations. 8. Agni, from days of old thou slayest demons: never shall Rakshasas in fight o'ercome thee. Burn up the foolish ones, raw flesh devourers: let none of them escape thine heavenly arrow! DECADE IV Agni 1. Bring us most mighty splendour thou, Agni, resistless on thy way: Prepare for us the path that leads to glorious opulence and strength! 2. May the brave man, if full of zeal he serve and kindle Agni's flame, Duly presenting sacred gifts, enjoy the Gods' protecting help. 3. Thy bright smoke lifts itself aloft, and far-extended shines in heaven, For, Purifier! like the Sun thou beamest with thy radiant glow. 4. Thou, Agni, even as Mitra, hast a princely glory of thine own. Bright, active God, thou makest fame increase like means of nourishment. 5. At dawn let Agni, much-beloved, guest of the house, be glorified, In whom, the everlasting one, all mortals make their offerings blaze. 6. Most moving song be Agni's: shine on high, O rich in radiant light! Like the chief consort of a King riches and strength proceed from thee. 7. Exerting all our strength with thoughts of power we glorify in speech Agni your dear familiar friend, the darling guest in every house. 8. His beam hath lofty power of life: sing praise to Agni, to the God Whom men have set in foremost place, like Mitra for their eulogy! 9. To noblest Agni, friend of man, chief Vritra-slayer, have we come- Who with Srutarvan, Riksha's son, in lofty presence is inflamed. 10. Born as the loftiest Law commands, comrade of those who grew with him. Agni, the sire of Kasyapa by faith, the mother, Manu, Sage. DECADE V Agni 1. We in King Soma place our trust, in Agni, and in Varuna, The Aditya, Vishnu, Surya, and the Brahman-priest Brihaspati. 2. Hence have these men gone up on high and mounted to the heights of heaven: On! conquer on the path by which Angirasas travelled to the skies! 3. That thou mayst send us ample wealth, O Agni, we will kindler thee: So, for the great oblation, Steer, pray Heaven and Earth to come to us! 4. He runs when one calls after him, This is the prayer of him who prays. He holds all knowledge in his grasp even as the felly rounds the wheel. 5. Shoot forth, O Agni, with thy flame: demolish them on every side! Break down the Yatudhana's strength, the vigour of the Rakshasa! 6. Worship the Vasus, Agni! here, the Rudras and Adityas, all Who know fair sacrifices, sprung from Mann, scattering blessings down!
  23. Hymns of Sama Veda Translated with a Popular Commentary - Ralph T.H. Griffith - 1895 Part I Part II Part III Preface The Samaveda, or Veda of Holy Songs, third in the usual order of enumeration of the three Vedas, ranks next in sanctity and liturgical importance to the Rgveda or Veda of Recited praise. Its Sanhita, or metrical portion, consists chiefly of hymns to be chanted by the Udgatar priests at the performance of those important sacrifices in which the juice of the Soma plant, clarified and mixed with milk and other ingredients, was offered in libation to various deities. The Collection is made up of hymns, portions of hymns, and detached verses, taken mainly from the Rgveda, transposed and re-arranged, without reference to their original order, to suit the religious ceremonies in which they were to be employed. In these compiled hymns there are frequent variations, of more or less importance, from the text of the Rgveda as we now possess it which variations, although in some cases they are apparently explanatory, seem in others to be older and more original than the readings of the Rgveda. In singing, the verses are still further altered by prolongation, repetition and insertion of syllables, and various modulations, rests, and other modifications prescribed, for the guidance of the officiating priests, in the Ganas or Song-books. Two of these manuals, the Gramageyagdna, or Congregational, and the Aranyagana or Forest Song-Book, follow the order of the verses of part I, of the Sanhita, and two others, the Uhagana, the Uhyagana, of Part II. This part is less disjointed than part I, and is generally arranged in triplets whose first verse is often the repetition of a verse that has occurred in part I. There is no clue to the date of the compilation of the Samaveda Hymns, nor has the compiler's name been handed down to us. Such a manual was unnecessary in the early times when the Aryans first came into India, but was required for guidance and use in the complicated ritual elaborated by the invaders after their expansion and settlement in their new homes. There are three recensions of the text of the Samaveda Sanhita, the Kauthuma Sakha or recension is current in Guzerat, the Jaiminiya in the Carnatic, and the Ranayaniya in the Mahratta country. A translation, by Dr. Stevenson, of the Ranayaniya recension-or, rather, a free version of Sayana's paraphrase-was edited by Professor Wilson, in 1842; in 1848 Professor Benfey of Göttingen brought out an excellent edition of the same text with a metrical translation, a complete glossary, and explanatory notes; and in 1874-78 Pandit Satyavrata Samasrami of Calcutta published in the Bibliotheca Indicaa. most meritorious edition of the Sanhita according to the same recension, with Sayana's commentary, portions of the Song-books, andi other illustrative matter. I have followed Benfey's text, and have, made much use of his glossary and notes. Pandit Satyavrata Samasrami's edition also has been of the greatest service to me. To Mr. Venis, Principal of the Benares Sanskrit College, I am indebted for, the loan of the College manuscripts of the text and commentary. I repeat the expression of my obligations to those scholars whose works assisted me in my translation of the Hymns of the Rgveda. For help in translating the non-Rgvedic Hymns of the Samaveda, I am additionally indebted to the late Professor Benfey and to Professor Ludwig whose version will be found in his Der Rgveda, vol. III, pp. 19-25. For further information regarding the Samaveda Weber's History Of Indian Literature, and Max Müller's History of Ancient Sanskrit Literature, or the article on the Veda in Chamber's Encyclopaedia should be consulted. R.T.H. GRIFFITH Kotagiri, Nilgiri 25th May,1893. http://www.bharatadesam.com/spiritual/rvs/sv.php
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